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The Two Oswald Phenomena Explained


Greg Parker

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Robert,

there is no equivelence between Armstrong's Two Oswald Theory and the Lonsdale affair. Assuming the ID of dead people has long been an option for spies and criminals.

The de La Guardia twins were arrested and tried on drug trafficking charges - which may or may not have had a political motive concerning one of the other arrestees. I have searched for some indication that they were involved in spying and if so, that it entailed assuming each other's identity, and have found none. What exactly does Armstrong claim about them that he believes shows equivelence?

Bottom line -- if they were in fact spies, and if they did pretend to be each other as part of their spy activities -that at least makes some sense. They looked very much alike and shared personality traits and personal history. The theory that two unrelated boys - one noticably shorter and brighter than the other - were used in a lifelong project involving one pretending to be the other - and moreover, neccitating the use also of a doppleganger mother for the one dubbed "Harvey", is the stuff of z grade movies.

As for the files marked "Harvey Lee Oswald"... don't forget the one marked "Henry Oswald" -- maybe we should go for a triplet project? Or maybe there were other reasons for it. The work done by Bill Simpich may help clarify.

The Armstrong case for two Oswald's is a lot like the WC case for a lone assassin. It is built on often misunderstand, or deliberately reshaped circumstantial evidence - padded out with irrelvancies and bloated to a supersized burger for public consumption. Both can look appealing for those hungry enough for a solution. Just don't put the ingredients under a mcroscope!

The main difference is that whereas the WC never met an"Oswald sighting" it could accept - Armstrong never met one he could reject.

But both extremes were in support of a predetermined conclusion.

Greg, what about Armstrong's photos of 2 Lee Harvey Oswalds in school? (One was Harvey Lee Oswald.) And one of the Oswald's had a busted tooth in high school. And one had an inner ear surgery. Why did Marina walk up to the coffin before it was put on display and open one of his eyes to see the color? (Why else?)

I can't wait to read your book.

Kathy C

Kathy,

Have given thought to the photo showing Oswald with a missing tooth.

Here's how I see it. No photo at any time after that shows Oswald with a missing tooth - regardless of whether you want to say some are of Lee and some are of "Harvey". This should be considered proof that the tooth was kept and reset. Oswald btw, just happened to have a relative in New Orleans who was a dentist, so advice could have been given on what to do...

Here is how it is done:

http://www.colgate.c...-Out-Tooth.cvsp

As you can see from the link, unless root canal surgery was required, it could all be done at home and leave no trace that it ever happened.

Edited by Greg Parker
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There are three key areas that make up the argument for two Oswalds:

1. Sightings of Oswald when he was known to be elsewhere.

As far as I can tell, no sighting of Oswald has ever been dismissed by the proponents of "Two Oswalds". Yet the sheer number and variety of them alone suggests some are

the products of fertile imaginations / planted phony stories (e.g. the DPD form showing Oswald and Ruby involved in a disturbance) ;

mistaken identity (e.g Ruby and Oswald at sex parties - my own research shows this was far more likely to have been Larry Crafard) or;

by deliberate impersonations on a ad hoc basis (e.g Mexico City)

2. Some people describing Oswald one way - others in a completely opposite way.

Asperger's would account for this, as Oswald would appear very intelligent to some depending on the immediate environment and circumstances - while others would describe him as superficial, repetitive, mechanical for the same reasons.

3. Changes in Oswald's appearance - particularly after he came back from USSR.

This can be accounted for in a very non-spooky way but I am holding it back for my book -- it is not guesswork. The proof of why his appearance was different is in the 26 volumes.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXooooooooooooooooXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX=

Greg, in Harvey and Lee pgs 201-202. Armstrong writes about the lies of Robert Blakey regarding problems of LHO being in two places at once via military records. Do you address this in your book ??? sg

Steve, the book will not be about dealing with Armstrong's theory - or any other theory. It will be setting out to explain the life and times of the Historical Lee Harvey Oswald and to provide new leads that, in any other case, would be sufficient to warrant a new investigation.

The working title is: "LEE HARVEY OSWALD'S COLD WAR & why the Kennedyassassination should be reopened"

By virtue of the content, it will have material that may tend to refute various theories, including Harvey & Lee.

If you want to provide details of the alleged problems with the military records, I'll address them here.

Good Luck with that Greg,

Let me know how I can help you.

BK

Thanks Bill. That's appreciated.

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Greg,

I have to repeat that I don't understand what you're saying here. I agree with you that certainly some of the sightings of an alleged Oswald could have an innocent explanation. However, you seem to be dismissive of the idea that there was a campaign afoot in the weeks before the assassination to use Oswald impersonators to implicate him. If I'm mistaken in thinking that, I apologize.

Do you doubt that Sylvia Odio witnessed a fake Oswald? Albert Guy Bogard? The people at the shooting range? Again, I'm sorry if I don't comprehend what you're saying.

To me, the fake Oswald encounters represent one of the strongest indications of conspiracy.

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Greg Parker, quote:

Bottom line -- if they were in fact spies (the la Guardia twins), and if they did pretend to be each other as part of their spy activities -that at least makes some sense. They looked very much alike and shared personality traits and personal history. The theory that two unrelated boys - one noticably shorter and brighter than the other - were used in a lifelong project involving one pretending to be the other - and moreover, neccitating the use also of a doppleganger mother for the one dubbed "Harvey", is the stuff of z grade movies.

Close quote

That should be carved in stone...

KK

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Mr. Parker, how do you explain the sighting of a nervous, fleeing Oswald look-alike in El Chico Restaurant parking lot near the Tippit shooting scene, at 2pm, at a time when Oswald was detained? What do you make of the license plate number written down of this man's car, which was traced to CIA contractor Collins Radio?

Edited by Andric Perez
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Mr. Parker, how do you explain the sighting of a nervous, fleeing Oswald look-alike in El Chico Restaurant parking lot near the Tippit shooting scene, at 2pm, at a time when Oswald was detained? What do you make of the license plate number written down of this man's car, which was traced to CIA contractor Collins Radio?

These are just observations as I recall them.

I do not specifically recall the mechanic stating the driver was "nervous".

I recall having some doubts about the 2pm time-frame as it did not seem to fit other information he imparted.

The car number plate was issued to a different car than the one described.

The mechanic was elderly, yet his eyesight has never been questioned, and no mention was made as to whether he needed glasses, or whether he wore glasses.

Let's just assume that this sighting is of an impersonator and it was in fact at 2:00pm

Let's assume that an Oswald impersonator was arrested and taken out the back of the TSBD as is often claimed.

We're now up to two Oswald impersonators and one real Oswald running around Dallas that day...

Are there others? Who got into the Rambler? the real Oswald; one of the above two? A third doppleganger? An innocent schmuck who fit Oswald's general appearance?

Was it one of these Oswald's at the Top 10 record store, or yet another one?

Which one was buying beer that morning?

---------------------------------------------------------

Let's try and name all those close to Oswald or Ruby who have been said to resemble Oswald:

Robert Oswald

Larry Crafard

Buell Frazier

Billy Lovelady

Other?

Then in the next tier you, you have the criminal and/or anti-Castro types

Thomas Vallee

William Seymour

Other?

Just how many young men did resemble Oswald in Dallas/Fort Worth alone? I'd say it would be a substantial number. And some probably much more so than a shorter guy with a New York accent and different eye color.

Generally, I split sightings into two different groups.

One group being sightings only where nothing but the visual is used to suggest it was Oswald. The vast majority in this group would be down to mistaken identity or mental issues of the observer (usually seeking attention).

The other group would be those sightings where the name "Oswald" (or Lee/Leon) is said to be used, or other data is used to suggest it was Oswald other than just visual. This is the group that needs most study.

This sighting doesn't fit neatly into either of those categories due to the coincidence (or not) of the number plate belonging to a car owned by Carl Mather who just happened to be a friend of Tippit and who just happened, as you point out, to work at Collin's Radio.

I will look into this further when time allows and try and come up with something definitive (as well as correct any memory mistakes) , but twist my arm right now, and I'd say either the mechanic got the number plate slightly wrong (which makes his mistake a very huge coincidence, I admit, considering where it leads), or it was Carl Mathers himself because another thing I recall is having some doubts about his timeline (alibi).

Finally, can I ask what you make of it? How does it fit into the grand scheme of things?

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Greg,

I have to repeat that I don't understand what you're saying here. I agree with you that certainly some of the sightings of an alleged Oswald could have an innocent explanation. However, you seem to be dismissive of the idea that there was a campaign afoot in the weeks before the assassination to use Oswald impersonators to implicate him. If I'm mistaken in thinking that, I apologize.

Do you doubt that Sylvia Odio witnessed a fake Oswald? Albert Guy Bogard? The people at the shooting range? Again, I'm sorry if I don't comprehend what you're saying.

To me, the fake Oswald encounters represent one of the strongest indications of conspiracy.

Don,

How can I be clearer than to state, as I did at the outset, than to say I believe that some of the sightings are "deliberate impersonations on a ad hoc basis"? What exactly is it about that that you don't understand?

Does this help?

ad hoc -

a ) concerned with a particular end or purpose

b ) formed or used for specific or immediate problems or needs

Edited by Greg Parker
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Mr. Parker, how do you explain the sighting of a nervous, fleeing Oswald look-alike in El Chico Restaurant parking lot near the Tippit shooting scene, at 2pm, at a time when Oswald was detained? What do you make of the license plate number written down of this man's car, which was traced to CIA contractor Collins Radio?

These are just observations as I recall them.

I do not specifically recall the mechanic stating the driver was "nervous".

I recall having some doubts about the 2pm time-frame as it did not seem to fit other information he imparted.

The car number plate was issued to a different car than the one described.

The mechanic was elderly, yet his eyesight has never been questioned, and no mention was made as to whether he needed glasses, or whether he wore glasses.

Let's just assume that this sighting is of an impersonator and it was in fact at 2:00pm

Let's assume that an Oswald impersonator was arrested and taken out the back of the TSBD as is often claimed.

We're now up to two Oswald impersonators and one real Oswald running around Dallas that day...

Are there others? Who got into the Rambler? the real Oswald; one of the above two? A third doppleganger? An innocent schmuck who fit Oswald's general appearance?

Was it one of these Oswald's at the Top 10 record store, or yet another one?

Which one was buying beer that morning?

---------------------------------------------------------

Let's try and name all those close to Oswald or Ruby who have been said to resemble Oswald:

Robert Oswald

Larry Crafard

Buell Frazier

Billy Lovelady

Other?

Then in the next tier you, you have the criminal and/or anti-Castro types

Thomas Vallee

William Seymour

Other?

Just how many young men did resemble Oswald in Dallas/Fort Worth alone? I'd say it would be a substantial number. And some probably much more so than a shorter guy with a New York accent and different eye color.

Generally, I split sightings into two different groups.

One group being sightings only where nothing but the visual is used to suggest it was Oswald. The vast majority in this group would be down to mistaken identity or mental issues of the observer (usually seeking attention).

The other group would be those sightings where the name "Oswald" (or Lee/Leon) is said to be used, or other data is used to suggest it was Oswald other than just visual. This is the group that needs most study.

This sighting doesn't fit neatly into either of those categories due to the coincidence (or not) of the number plate belonging to a car owned by Carl Mather who just happened to be a friend of Tippit and who just happened, as you point out, to work at Collin's Radio.

I will look into this further when time allows and try and come up with something definitive (as well as correct any memory mistakes) , but twist my arm right now, and I'd say either the mechanic got the number plate slightly wrong (which makes his mistake a very huge coincidence, I admit, considering where it leads), or it was Carl Mathers himself because another thing I recall is having some doubts about his timeline (alibi).

Finally, can I ask what you make of it? How does it fit into the grand scheme of things?

I personally think that it would be a huge coincidence (agree with you) that someone with bad vision gets a license plate number wrong, and this number happens to correspond to a contractor for the agency (CIA) accused by most CT of having been involved in the assassination.

Edited by Andric Perez
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Ok Greg, I agree you did not say that, I wish you had been more specific.

But when you say Palmer McBride only, you leave out the fact that when John found the other members of the astronomy club, they backed him Palmer up.

Further, the opera that he and Oswald went to, Boris Godunov, only played in New Orleans in October of 1957, when Oswald was in Japan.

Your statement as to what "John found" is false. As is all too often the case, you are promoting a bunch of nonsense, and urban legend.

1. The FBI interviews of those at the astronomy club--not Armstrong's absurd reliance on 30 year old recollections--support the fact that Oswald was brought to one (or more) astronomy club meetings in 1956 (and certainly not 1957 or 1958, when he was already in the Marines, and in Japan.

2. As Greg Parker has noted, Fort Worth news stories, published in 1956, support the fact that when Oswald wrote a letter to Pfisterer (mentioning civil disorders in Fort Worth), the year being referred to was 1956, and not one or two years later. (FYI: Pre -internet, I found those same stories the "old fashioned" way, via microfilm at the Ft Worth library). Its interesting that, in the world of the Internet, they are now a mouse-click away.

Did you publish anything about those stories? If so, can you point me to where I can find what you had to say about them at the time? Was there any reaction?

Still waiting, Greg?

Seems I forgot the magic work. David, can you please point me to the information you found and what reaction there was to it? I am very interested in the way people ignore information when it goes against their beliefs -- and this seems like a very good example.

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Don,

How can I be clearer than to state, as I did at the outset, than to say I believe that some of the sightings are "deliberate impersonations on a ad hoc basis"? What exactly is it about that that you don't understand?

Does this help?

ad hoc -

a) concerned with a particular end or purpose

B) formed or used for specific or immediate problems or needs

I guess I'm the only one here who was getting the impression you were dismissing the idea of Oswald impersonators in general. It wouldn't be the first time I misunderstood someone.

But shockingly, I do at least understand the definition of "ad hoc."

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I guess I'm the only one here who was getting the impression you were dismissing the idea of Oswald impersonators in general. It wouldn't be the first time I misunderstood someone.

But shockingly, I do at least understand the definition of "ad hoc."

Sadly Don, you don't appear to be alone in having missed - or misunderstood when I said I believed some sightings were the result of "deliberate impersonations". Right there in the very first post. I say that solely because of the number of "what about this sighting..." or "what about that one" type responses as if some are having are a hard time coping with the loss of cherished myths surrounding the likes McBride and January and are trying to redeem them by challenging me on other sightings.

All I dismiss in toto is the very silly Harvey & Lee nonsense.

Apart from that, I don't care if every sighting turned out to be true. I do care if only some are, but all are believed.

But it is not just the sightings that are used to support theories like "Harvey & Lee".

The disparate perceptions of Oswald's personality and physical appearance are also used to that end.

Myself and Allen Lowe came independently to the same conclusion that Asperger's accounts for the personality traits encountered (as well as language ability and a few other things), and I would like to eventually move on to that.

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I guess I'm the only one here who was getting the impression you were dismissing the idea of Oswald impersonators in general. It wouldn't be the first time I misunderstood someone.

But shockingly, I do at least understand the definition of "ad hoc."

Sadly Don, you don't appear to be alone in having missed - or misunderstood when I said I believed some sightings were the result of "deliberate impersonations". Right there in the very first post. I say that solely because of the number of "what about this sighting..." or "what about that one" type responses as if some are having are a hard time coping with the loss of cherished myths surrounding the likes McBride and January and are trying to redeem them by challenging me on other sightings.

All I dismiss in toto is the very silly Harvey & Lee nonsense.

Apart from that, I don't care if every sighting turned out to be true. I do care if only some are, but all are believed.

But it is not just the sightings that are used to support theories like "Harvey & Lee".

The disparate perceptions of Oswald's personality and physical appearance are also used to that end.

Myself and Allen Lowe came independently to the same conclusion that Asperger's accounts for the personality traits encountered (as well as language ability and a few other things), and I would like to eventually move on to that.

I'm one who thinks that every one of the "Oswald impersonators" can be positively identified, and some have been - ie. Larry Craffard and Ruby were seen together a lot and Craffard was mistaken for Oswald at the radio microphone shop and diner, but its possible Craffard also intentionally impersonated Oswald at the Texas Employment Commission. And there are other examples.

But the intentional impersonations must mean something, though "Harvey & Lee" ain't it.

I thank John Armstrong for making his papers available via Baylor Library, as it is a valuable source of information for everyone.

BK

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Mr. Parker, how do you explain the sighting of a nervous, fleeing Oswald look-alike in El Chico Restaurant parking lot near the Tippit shooting scene, at 2pm, at a time when Oswald was detained? What do you make of the license plate number written down of this man's car, which was traced to CIA contractor Collins Radio?

These are just observations as I recall them.

I do not specifically recall the mechanic stating the driver was "nervous".

I recall having some doubts about the 2pm time-frame as it did not seem to fit other information he imparted.

The car number plate was issued to a different car than the one described.

The mechanic was elderly, yet his eyesight has never been questioned, and no mention was made as to whether he needed glasses, or whether he wore glasses.

Let's just assume that this sighting is of an impersonator and it was in fact at 2:00pm

Let's assume that an Oswald impersonator was arrested and taken out the back of the TSBD as is often claimed.

We're now up to two Oswald impersonators and one real Oswald running around Dallas that day...

Are there others? Who got into the Rambler? the real Oswald; one of the above two? A third doppleganger? An innocent schmuck who fit Oswald's general appearance?

Was it one of these Oswald's at the Top 10 record store, or yet another one?

Which one was buying beer that morning?

---------------------------------------------------------

Let's try and name all those close to Oswald or Ruby who have been said to resemble Oswald:

Robert Oswald

Larry Crafard

Buell Frazier

Billy Lovelady

Other?

Then in the next tier you, you have the criminal and/or anti-Castro types

Thomas Vallee

William Seymour

Other?

Just how many young men did resemble Oswald in Dallas/Fort Worth alone? I'd say it would be a substantial number. And some probably much more so than a shorter guy with a New York accent and different eye color.

Generally, I split sightings into two different groups.

One group being sightings only where nothing but the visual is used to suggest it was Oswald. The vast majority in this group would be down to mistaken identity or mental issues of the observer (usually seeking attention).

The other group would be those sightings where the name "Oswald" (or Lee/Leon) is said to be used, or other data is used to suggest it was Oswald other than just visual. This is the group that needs most study.

This sighting doesn't fit neatly into either of those categories due to the coincidence (or not) of the number plate belonging to a car owned by Carl Mather who just happened to be a friend of Tippit and who just happened, as you point out, to work at Collin's Radio.

I will look into this further when time allows and try and come up with something definitive (as well as correct any memory mistakes) , but twist my arm right now, and I'd say either the mechanic got the number plate slightly wrong (which makes his mistake a very huge coincidence, I admit, considering where it leads), or it was Carl Mathers himself because another thing I recall is having some doubts about his timeline (alibi).

Finally, can I ask what you make of it? How does it fit into the grand scheme of things?

I personally think that it would be a huge coincidence (agree with you) that someone with bad vision gets a license plate number wrong, and this number happens to correspond to a contractor for the agency (CIA) accused by most CT of having been involved in the assassination.

As promised, I've looked into it and am satisfied there may be something to it. Someone else asked about the Odio incident, and there actually could be a connection between the two incidents. In fact, it's potentially quite a story, if I can flesh it out.

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Mr. Parker, how do you explain the sighting of a nervous, fleeing Oswald look-alike in El Chico Restaurant parking lot near the Tippit shooting scene, at 2pm, at a time when Oswald was detained? What do you make of the license plate number written down of this man's car, which was traced to CIA contractor Collins Radio?

These are just observations as I recall them.

I do not specifically recall the mechanic stating the driver was "nervous".

I recall having some doubts about the 2pm time-frame as it did not seem to fit other information he imparted.

The car number plate was issued to a different car than the one described.

The mechanic was elderly, yet his eyesight has never been questioned, and no mention was made as to whether he needed glasses, or whether he wore glasses.

Let's just assume that this sighting is of an impersonator and it was in fact at 2:00pm

Let's assume that an Oswald impersonator was arrested and taken out the back of the TSBD as is often claimed.

We're now up to two Oswald impersonators and one real Oswald running around Dallas that day...

Are there others? Who got into the Rambler? the real Oswald; one of the above two? A third doppleganger? An innocent schmuck who fit Oswald's general appearance?

Was it one of these Oswald's at the Top 10 record store, or yet another one?

Which one was buying beer that morning?

---------------------------------------------------------

Let's try and name all those close to Oswald or Ruby who have been said to resemble Oswald:

Robert Oswald

Larry Crafard

Buell Frazier

Billy Lovelady

Other?

Then in the next tier you, you have the criminal and/or anti-Castro types

Thomas Vallee

William Seymour

Other?

Just how many young men did resemble Oswald in Dallas/Fort Worth alone? I'd say it would be a substantial number. And some probably much more so than a shorter guy with a New York accent and different eye color.

Generally, I split sightings into two different groups.

One group being sightings only where nothing but the visual is used to suggest it was Oswald. The vast majority in this group would be down to mistaken identity or mental issues of the observer (usually seeking attention).

The other group would be those sightings where the name "Oswald" (or Lee/Leon) is said to be used, or other data is used to suggest it was Oswald other than just visual. This is the group that needs most study.

This sighting doesn't fit neatly into either of those categories due to the coincidence (or not) of the number plate belonging to a car owned by Carl Mather who just happened to be a friend of Tippit and who just happened, as you point out, to work at Collin's Radio.

I will look into this further when time allows and try and come up with something definitive (as well as correct any memory mistakes) , but twist my arm right now, and I'd say either the mechanic got the number plate slightly wrong (which makes his mistake a very huge coincidence, I admit, considering where it leads), or it was Carl Mathers himself because another thing I recall is having some doubts about his timeline (alibi).

Finally, can I ask what you make of it? How does it fit into the grand scheme of things?

I haven't done this for a while, Greg but I think you're mistaken on this one.

I think you're spot on with Palmer McBride - which I've always doubted - but I think the White story is a valid puzzle piece.

The car was the same model but different color. White approached the car and wrote the licence number down. He didn't want to get involved but Wes Wise pursued it with the FBI. Once the FBI do get involved the Plymouth that White saw suddenly turns into a Ford Falcon.

There is also the request by Mather (that was granted by Bob Blakey) of immunity from prosecution should he testify before the HSCA. Either the guy had close CIA ties or he had information of relevance (or both).

I really believe the story has legs and I think it ties to the Tippit shooting.

The coincidence you suggest is too far out in left field for my brain to handle.

However, I have a couple of spare hours tomorrow and would like to reopen the story of Ralph Yates.

Lee,

I didn't see this before my last response. What I said prior to that was qualified by the need to actually go back to the documents, as I was working from memory.

Having done so, I think you're both right. My only problem is there seems to be a belief that if you accept one sighting, you must accept them all, and if you reject one, an assumption is made that you're out to disprove them all.

If we're being skeptical about coincidences, there is a fair size one between certain allegations surrounding the Odio incident and the incident in the parking lot. I know it seems like I'm being a [insert your favorite cuss word] but if there is nothing to it, I look bad anyway -- and if it's as juicy as I think i might be, I may want to hang off discussion and save it for the manuscript. I also need to make doubley sure someone else hasn't already looked into it.

Edited by Greg Parker
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Ok Greg, I agree you did not say that, I wish you had been more specific.

But when you say Palmer McBride only, you leave out the fact that when John found the other members of the astronomy club, they backed him Palmer up.

Further, the opera that he and Oswald went to, Boris Godunov, only played in New Orleans in October of 1957, when Oswald was in Japan.

Your statement as to what "John found" is false. As is all too often the case, you are promoting a bunch of nonsense, and urban legend.

1. The FBI interviews of those at the astronomy club--not Armstrong's absurd reliance on 30 year old recollections--support the fact that Oswald was brought to one (or more) astronomy club meetings in 1956 (and certainly not 1957 or 1958, when he was already in the Marines, and in Japan.

2. As Greg Parker has noted, Fort Worth news stories, published in 1956, support the fact that when Oswald wrote a letter to Pfisterer (mentioning civil disorders in Fort Worth), the year being referred to was 1956, and not one or two years later. (FYI: Pre -internet, I found those same stories the "old fashioned" way, via microfilm at the Ft Worth library). Its interesting that, in the world of the Internet, they are now a mouse-click away.

Did you publish anything about those stories? If so, can you point me to where I can find what you had to say about them at the time? Was there any reaction?

Still waiting, Greg?

Seems I forgot the magic work. David, can you please point me to the information you found and what reaction there was to it? I am very interested in the way people ignore information when it goes against their beliefs -- and this seems like a very good example.

Mr Lifton, why are you ignoring this request? I have asked politely and given what I think is a very good reason for wanting to know. The thought that you demolished any credence given to McBride with unimpeachable evidence regarding the timing of Fort Worth riots, and no one paid a lick of notice, is a major issue confronting those trying to narrow the field of possibilities in this case in order to gain some sort of consensus.

Edited by Greg Parker
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