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Who Instigated the Dallas Trip, and When?


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Here's a brief recap of just some of the ground taken in this campaign in only a few days. This doesn't include all the very valuable data posted so far in this thread by any means, but does focus on some pretty key events. This is a text timeline made from a tab-delimited export from the JFK Timeline Database I've uploaded and started the linked topic on.

Let's see how many "coincidences" the Coincidence Jockies can ride at one time:

  • Wednesday, 5 June 1963
    John F. Kennedy, Lyndon Johnson, John Connally (former Secretary of the Navy, 1961), Cliff Carter, and Fred Korth (Secretary of the Navy, having succeeded Connally) are all in attendance at a meeting at the Cortez Hotel in El Paso, Texas. Part of the meeting involves a discussion of JFK visiting Dallas. The first date discussed is August 27, 1963, to coincide with Johnson's birthday, but it is rejected as being "too close to Labory Day." The date of 21 November is set as the earliest feasible date considering Kennedy's other committments.
    Thursday, 5 c. September 1963
    An unknown person or persons at "the White House" decide or arrange that Kennedy's upcoming trip to Texas will be extended from 21 November through to the evening of 22 November 1963, to allow for a motorcade in Dallas on 22 November. [NOTE: Actual date in September is unknown. It is being estimated arbitrarily to be early in September, but may have to be moved pending more information. When in September it actually happened has little bearing, but is at least of interest concerning its sequence relative to the Buell Frazier hiring at the TSBD on Friday, 13 September 1963 (see).]
    Friday, 13 September 1963
    Buell Wesley Frazier begins work at the Texas School Book Depository on Friday the 13th, September 1963. He has been sent there by the Massey Employment Agency in Irving Texas. [NOTE: Like it or not, believe it or not, the number 13 appears repeatedly, constantly, in operations proven to be connected to CIA. Buell's sister is Linnie Mae Frazier. One month and one day later, she will have a coffee get-together with Ruth Hyde Paine and Marina Oswald, resulting directly in Oswald being hired at the TSBD at a time when they aren't hiring. See chronology entry for 14 October 1963.]
    Friday, 4 October 1963
    John Connally meets privately with JFK at the White House to discuss details of Kennedy's upcoming trip to Texas. Originally set only for 21 November, the trip has been extended through the evening of 22 November to allow for a motorcade in Dallas. Lyndon Johnson is not included in the meeting. Afterwards, he purportedly is upset about having not been notified, but this is according to Connally claims only. [NOTE: Connally meets privately with Johnson, too. Their little get-together is at Johnson's home, which is called, quaintly, "The Elms."]
    Monday, 14 October 1963
    Buell Wesley Frazier's sister Linnie Mae Frazier has Ruth Hyde Paine and Marina Oswald over for coffee. Buell's employment at the Texas School Book Depository is discussed, supposedly the motivation for Ruth Hyde Paine calling the TSBD later in the day and arranging an employment interview for Lee Havey Oswald with Roy Truly the next day.
    Tuesday, 15 October 1963
    Lee Harvey Oswald is interviewed by Roy Truly at the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) and is hired on a temporary basis purportedly only because several regular employees are being used to "put down plywood" on the sixth floor of the building. Oswald is told to start the next day, 16 October 1963, supposedly because it is "the beginning of a new pay period." Here is Truly regarding the interview:

Roy Truly:
"He [Oswald] seemed quiet and well mannered. ...[he filled out an application] And he told me-- I asked him about experience that he had had, or where he had worked, and he said he had just served his term in the Marine Corps and had received an honorable discharge, and he listed some things of an office nature that he had learned to do in the Marines. I questioned him about any past activities. I asked him if he had ever had any trouble with the police, and he said no. So thinking that he was just out of the Marines, I didn't check any further back. I didn't have anything of a permanent nature in mind for him. He looked like a nice young fellow to me-- he was quiet and well mannered. He used the word 'sir', you know, which a lot of them don't do at this time. So I told him if he would come to work on the morning of the 16th, it was the beginning of a new pay period."


And here is Allen Dulles questioning Truly about the hiring:

Mr. Dulles.
Do you recall, Mr. Truly, whether you hired any personnel for work in this particular building, in the School Depository, after the 15th of October and before the 22nd of November?

Mr. Truly.
No, sir; I don't recall hiring anyone else other than Oswald for that building the same day that I hired Oswald. I believe, if I am not mistaken, I hired another boy for a temporary job, and put him in the other warehouse at 1917 North Houston.

Mr. Dulles.
At a different warehouse?

Mr. Truly.
At a different warehouse. He was laid off on November 15th, I believe--November 15th or something like that.

Mr. Dulles.
What I was getting at is whether an accomplice could have gotten in in that way. That is why I was asking the question.

Mr. Truly.
No, sir; I don't recall. Actually, the end of our fall rush--if it hadn't existed a week or 2 weeks longer, or if we had not been using some of our regular boys putting down this plywood, we would not have had any need for Lee Oswald at that time, which is a tragic thing for me to think about.


Wednesday, 16 October 1963
Lee Harvey Oswald reports for his first day of work at the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD). He is starting on Wednesday purportedly because it is "the beginning of a new pay period" according to Roy Truly [see chronology entry for 15 October 1963].
Friday, 15 c. November 1963
A change in the route of Kennedy's Dallas motorcade is made by a person or persons unknown. The change will take the motorcade through Dealey Plaza on Elm, in front of the Texas School Book Depository (and in line-of-sight of the Criminal Courts Building). On or about the same date, Roy Truly lays off a temporary employee at the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD), but keeps Oswald on.

As if this alone doesn't permanently move the stakes about 90% into the lonely little patch of "lone asssassin" territory, I just got given a brief glimpse of some things happening around the time of the gun mail-order, and it's to make hairs stand on end.

I think I hear a far Fuhrman wailing and gnashing teeth...

Ashton

Edited by Ashton Gray
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According to Vince Palamara:

Jerry Behn was WITH JFK, LBJ ,and CONNALLY in El Paso on 6/5/63 (as was the SX100 limo and many other agents)! Also:

LBJ's April 1963 announcment of the trip which was carried in the newspapers;

9/26/63: official White House announcement (also in the newspapers);

10/4/63: Connally visits JFK in Oval Office- as if the SS wouldn't know about this (they installed and monitored the taping system which was implemented and in full operation during JFK's administration, as well- SAIC of PRS Robert I. Bouck, who I spoke with, installed and monitored the tapes from the EOB);

11/1/63: Connally press conference;

11/4/63: ASAIC Boring notifies Lawson of the Dallas assignment (and the rest is history...)

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_i...Issue/saic.html

Edited by Michael Hogan
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Friday, 15 c. November 1963

A change in the route of Kennedy's Dallas motorcade is made by a person or persons unknown.

What was announced on this date was not a change in the motorcade route, but the site selected for the luncheon. There had been a feud over which site to use, and selection of the Trade Mart was made by White House aide Ken O'Donnell, in consultation with Bill Moyers, and was due to "unbearable" pressure from Connally to have the luncheon at the Trade Mart instead of the Women's Building.

Dallas SS agent in charge Forrest Sorrels then selected the Elm Street route as the "most direct" route to the Trade Mart, considering the presence of a raised divider which would have to be driven over if Main Street were used to reach the expressway. Continuing down Main to Industrial Boulevard was rejected, in consultation with Asst. Police Chief George Lumpkin, because of the undesirable neighborhood.

From HSCA v. 11:

• (Advance man) Bruno's explanation of how the matter was finally resolved is found in his journal in the entries of November 14 and 15, 1963: November 14-- The feud became so bitter that I went to the White House to ask Bill Moyers, then Deputy Director of the Peace Corps, and close to both Connally and Johnson, if he would try to settle the dispute for the good of the President and his party. On this day, Kenney O'Donnell decided that there was no other way but to go to the mart. November 15--The White House announced that the Trade Mart had been approved. I met with O'Donnell and Moyers who said that Connally was unbearable and on the verge of cancelling the trip. They decided they had to let the Governor have his way. (149) . . .

• As the Dallas SAIC, Forrest Sorrels told the Warren Commission, he selected the Main-Houston-Elm turn through Dealey Plaza because it was the "most direct" route to the Trade Mart. (189) Sorrels' questioning by Warren Commission staff counsel Samuel M. Stern, however, prevented a total picture of motorcade route logistics from emerging. Stern asked Sorrels why the expressway was proached from the Elm Street ramp instead of from Main Street just beyond the triple overpass at the westen boundary of Dealey Plaza. Sorrels explained that the size and cumbersomeness of the motorcade, along with the presence of a raised divider separating the Elm Street lane from the Elm Street lane at the foot of the ramp up to the expressway, deterred him from trying to route the motorcade under and through the overpass on Main Street. Such a route would have assigned the drivers in the motorcade the almost impossible task of making a reverse S-turn in order to cross over the raised divider to get from the Main Street lane into the Elm Street lane. (190) However, this question-and-answer process failed to make clear that the Trade Mart was accessible from beyond the triple overpass in such a way that it was not necessary to enter the Elm Street ramp to the expressway. The motorcade could have progressed westward through Dealey Plaza on Main Street, passed under the overpass, and then proceeded on Industrial Boulevard to the Trade Mart. (191)

• George L. Lumpkin, assistant police chief in Dallas in 1963, was consulted by the Secret Service about the motorcade aspect of security planning. (192) Lumpkin explained that the alternate route, continuing straight on Main through and beyond Dealey Plaza and thereby reaching the Trade Mart on Industrial Boulevard, was rejected because the neighborhood surrounding Industrial Boulevard was "filled with winos and broken pavement." (193) Additionally, Lumpkin stated that Kennedy wanted exposure and that there would have been no crowds cn Industrial Boulevard. (194)

• Advance Agent Lawson informed committee investigators that he had nothing to do with the selection of the Main-Houston-Elm turn before November 14, since only Main Street, not Dealey Plaza, had been selected for the motorcade at that time. He did not specify the exact date on which the turn was selected nor did he identify the person selecting the turn.(195) Sorrels stated that he and Lawson did drive the entire route together, but did not specify when this occurred. (196)

• Sorrels' Warren Commission exhibit No. 4 suggested that both men drove the entire route on November 18. (197) It is not certain that both men knew about the turn earlier than this date.

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Guest John Gillespie

"Friday, 15 c. November 1963

A change in the route of Kennedy's Dallas motorcade is made by a person or persons unknown. The change will take the motorcade through Dealey Plaza on Elm, in front of the Texas School Book Depository (and in line-of-sight of the Criminal Courts Building). On or about the same date, Roy Truly lays off a temporary employee at the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD), but keeps Oswald on."

Ashton

_____________

Ash,

For what it's worth, I was told years ago that Oswald was hired for that other location yet somehow ended up at THE TSBD. I confess to have no documentation but a good source, which brings us back to the Fraziers and whether Buell - or someone - intervened with a carpooling issue. Yeah, too bad Dulles didn't ask some other, pointed, questions. Also, not to put to fine a point on it...but the temp (let's get his name) was, as stated by Truly, at the 1917 North Houston site.

Keep on keepin' on, gang.

Regards, JG

Edited by John Gillespie
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Guest John Gillespie

From Mark:

Ah, yes. These are the type of threads Brendan and his fellow members of "Team America" like to interrupt. (Their headquarters are inside Mount Rushmore you know).

That's because a thread like this has the potential to make serious progress in this case.

As for the pivotal question of who in the White House extended the Texas trip by a day in order to squeeze in a motorcade, I don't know but I would suggest LBJ as a leading candidate. I've read that in the weeks leading to November 22, when it aqppeared that JFK may have been wavering, LBJ was quite insistent on the Texas trip going ahead as planned. (Sorry, I can't find the reference but I'll try to dig it up).

__________________________________

That's called getting one on the fat part of the bat, Mark. The thread is a threat.

I've got news for Brendan: the Constitution and its principles do not exist solely for the Left, Right or Center. I've noticed - and am sure it has not escaped the attention of others here - that the specifics of the salient points presented by Ron, Ashton, Mark, Dawn, etc. are never addressed. Instead, mere Patriotism is invoked. The irony of that is not lost, either.

Regards,

JG

Edited by John Gillespie
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Guest John Gillespie

From Ashton:

Mr. Truly. No, sir; I don't recall hiring anyone else other than Oswald for that building the same day that I hired Oswald. I believe, if I am not mistaken, I hired another boy for a temporary job, and put him in the other warehouse at 1917 North Houston.

Mr. Dulles. At a different warehouse?

Mr. Truly. At a different warehouse. He was laid off on November 15th, I believe--November 15th or something like that.

________________________

Ash,

There it is again, the obfuscation mosaic. They were and are at the ready with duplicitous contingencies and, as you have stated, they always have both ends covered.

JG

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A trip by JFK to Texas was first discussed by JFK, Vice President Lyndon Johnson, and Governor John Connally on June 5, 1963, at the Cortez Hotel in El Paso, Texas.

I might have known Johnson would be involved in it somewhere! :)

Informative post, thanks.

God and CIA work in mysterious ways. :)

Ashton

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All this may be old news to some but it fits in this thread:

Connally had been bedmates with Johnson since as early as 1941, maybe 1940:

  • "Connally distinguished himself at the University of Texas, where he received a law degree in 1941. He had already passed the bar examination before graduation and begun his career in politics on the staff of Congressman Lyndon Baines Johnson, the beginning of a life-long association."
Texas Governors, Modern

After WWII, Connally "became known as a political mastermind, running LBJ's political campaigns from Congress to the White House, and also serving as legal counsel to oilman Sid Richardson." (Same source as above.)

Among other things, Connally was Secretary of the Treasury under Nixon from 11 February 1971—about the exact time the last tape machine had arrived to be installed in the Oval Office on 16 February 1971 (you can't make this up)—until 12 June 1972, which happens to be five days before the "arrests" at the Watergate (you just can't make this up).

God and CIA work in mysterious ways.

Ashton Gray

Edited by Ashton Gray
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[quote name='Ashton Gray' date='Jul 24 2006, 05:55 AM' post='70013']

From Connally’s WC testimony:

...

Damn, Ron: you cleared the bases with that one! Grand slam! :)

What a reluctant lady Connally was, huh? Gee. That's about the longest bout of foreplay I've ever read of anywhere.

And Kennedy just wouldn't go to Texas unless they could hold hands. Uh-huh. I'm sure that's just the way it all happened. Except for this one little thing...

I had, as you know, as Mr. Blakey just recounted, I had been appointed by President Kennedy as Secretary of the Navy and had served in the year 1961 as Secretary of the Navy. I, as a matter of fact, not only talked to Mr. McNamara, but I had gone and talked to President Kennedy before I went home to run for Governor.

Whoa! It's a threesome.

Now, I'm trying to think who else would have been all up in there...

Oh, yeah! Daniel Ellsberg. Beginning at almost the same time as Connally started as Secretary of the Navy, Ellsberg became a consultant from Rand for the Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security Affairs (ISA), with "go anywhere see anything" kinds of clearances. And just try to guess who the Deputy Secretary of Defense for ISA was at the time! It was Ellsberg's good buddy Harry Rowan, who would then become head of Rand, and a few years later have the McNamara report slipped into some briefcases and handed to Ellsberg.

There's more to come on this. I hope Bentand Slithery's people get him a case of No-Doz and a copy of The Big Book of Vapid One-Liners. He's gonna' need it.

Ashton

xxxx: Now Ellsberg's behavior at the famous party in 1978-9 (forget exact date) to raise $ to keep HSCA going is making TOTAL sense.

Earth to Terry: Please ask Lifton what he remembers of the Mailer party and specifically the behavior of Dan Ellsberg. One hint: It was before,during and after a speech by our pal Carl O.

Ashton: Your posts are making sense of behavior that I found so damn paradoxical for now almost 30 years!!! As always, thanx!

Dawn.

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Connally had been bedmates with Johnson since as early as 1941, maybe 1940: (Ashton Gray)

I just love LBJ's tie.

James

Until now, I'd imagined that flower power was an anti-establishment sixties thing.

You've helped me understand that LBJ invented it. :)

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OTHER THAN PLANNING THE ITINERY AND WHEN, THE OFFICIAL PURPOSE OF THE TRIP TO TEXAS IS SIGNIFICANT AS WELL.

Besides mending the political fences, raising money and revisiting LBJ territory before dumping him from the ticket, the ostensible and official reason and purpose of the trip was to visit Brooks Medical Base, a US Army istilation near San Antonio, and pay his respects to some old political hacks.

The official JFK Presidential Daily Day Book Planner - which ends on November 22, lists this mission for November 21.

BK

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In her book Kennedy & Johnson (1968), Evelyn Lincoln has this to say about the trip to Texas. She says that JFK was very reluctant to go on this trip: “Advance reports from our own staff and from many other people gave us cause to worry about the tense climate in Texas – and, most especially, in Dallas. Dallas was removed and then put back on the planned itinerary several times. Our own advance man urged that the motorcade not take the route through the underpass and past the Book Depository, but he was overruled.” She adds that Johnson was insistent that JFK went on the trip.

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A trip by JFK to Texas was first discussed by JFK, Vice President Lyndon Johnson, and Governor John Connally on June 5, 1963, at the Cortez Hotel in El Paso, Texas.

I might have known Johnson would be involved in it somewhere! B)

Informative post, thanks.

God and CIA work in mysterious ways. :)

Ashton

I posted this 6/5 discussion re Cortez Hotel also. May have been on other thread tho. (SInce this question is asked here and in Watergate.

Ash you asked me to post that over here too, so I guess I will.

Dawn

ps I don't think God works with the CIA :) Or they for Him, except the good ones, and there have been good ones. Gary Underhill comes to mind. "Suicide" (65) after telling others- (immediately after to assassination)- that JFK had been killed by CIA" and it was connected with Cuba. Was "suicided" (wrong hand too!) 5/8/64. Bullet to head, by right-handed former CIA Underhill, but bullet hit behind left ear. Don't they all kill themself this way? It's so damn in your face!!

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