Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Robert Prudhomme]

Well, there you go, Thomas, once again Lovelady's testimony doesn't add up, and is disproven by photographic evidence; if the times you quote for Lovelady in front of the TSBD are accurate.

If Groden places Lovelady in front of the TSBD 8-15 minutes post assassination, Lovelady lied to the WC in his testimony.

According to his testimony, he remained on the steps for about three minutes until Gloria Calvary came up and told him JFK had been shot. He and Bill Shelley then proceeded (not sure why my type suddenly changed) down the Elm St. extension 100 yards to the rail yards, stopping after 25 steps to look back and see Truly and Baker entering the TSBD. They stayed at the rail yard for a minute and then re-entered the TSBD through a door at the rear. He then states he stayed on the first floor for thirty minutes and, following that, escorted some policemen up to the 6th floor. His testimony does not reveal what he did following the trip to the 6th floor.

As I understand, the TSBD was locked down at some point just after the assassination and no one was allowed in or out of the building. I do not recall when it was locked down and at what point the lockdown was lifted. Anyone?

I have to ask the question, just what was Billy Lovelady doing immediately after the assassination, and just where and with whom was he doing it?

[Thomas Graves]

Well, there you go, Thomas, once again Lovelady's testimony doesn't add up, and is disproven by photographic evidence; if the times you quote for Lovelady in front of the TSBD are accurate.

If Groden places Lovelady in front of the TSBD 8-15 minutes post assassination, Lovelady lied to the WC in his testimony.

According to his testimony, he remained on the steps for about three minutes until Gloria Calvary came up and told him JFK had been shot. He and Bill Shelley then proceeded (not sure why my type suddenly changed) down the Elm St. extension 100 yards to the rail yards, stopping after 25 steps to look back and see Truly and Baker entering the TSBD. They stayed at the rail yard for a minute and then re-entered the TSBD through a door at the rear. He then states he stayed on the first floor for thirty minutes and, following that, escorted some policemen up to the 6th floor. His testimony does not reveal what he did following the trip to the 6th floor.

As I understand, the TSBD was locked down at some point just after the assassination and no one was allowed in or out of the building. I do not recall when it was locked down and at what point the lockdown was lifted. Anyone?

I have to ask the question, just what was Billy Lovelady doing immediately after the assassination, and just where and with whom was he doing it?

Robert,

Yes, that depends of course on whether or not Groden was accurate in his estimate....

--Tommy

[Robert Prudhomme]

Just read Thomas's edited version of his post, which places the Martin film alongside the Hughes film and shows the segments of the two films shot in front of the TSBD were shot at the same time.

Is there any way we can be absolutely certain the segments of these films shown here were taken 8-15 minutes after the assassination? Is it possible to narrow the time down a bit more than that?

P.S.

Just saw your last post, Thomas. Yes, everything here pivots on the accuracy of Groden's time estimate. Something still bothers me here, though, and it has ever since the first time I read Lovelady's and Shelley's testimonies and saw that both testified to remaining on the steps of the TSBD 3-4 minutes prior to Gloria Calvary running up to them with the news. How much longer were they there discussing the assassination with her? Somehow, we are to believe both men witnessed Truly and Baker entering the TSBD seconds after the last shot, yet both their testimonies would tell us this event had to take place at least three minutes post assassination, as they both testified to seeing Baker and Truly entering the TSBD AFTER they had left the front of the TSBD. Now, if just one of them had stated three minutes, I could put it down to the stress of the moment but two men saying the identical thing means either it really happened, or the two of them were telling the same well rehearsed lie.

I am beginning to wonder if the whole trip by Lovelady (and Shelley) to the rail yard ever happened.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Robert Prudhomme

[Thomas Graves]

Just read Thomas's edited version of his post, which places the Martin film alongside the Hughes film and shows the segments of the two films shot in front of the TSBD were shot at the same time.

Is there any way we can be absolutely certain the segments of these films shown here were taken 8-15 minutes after the assassination? Is it possible to narrow the time down a bit more than that?

P.S.

Just saw your last post, Thomas. Yes, everything here pivots on the accuracy of Groden's time estimate. Something still bothers me here, though, and it has ever since the first time I read Lovelady's and Shelley's testimonies and saw that both testified to remaining on the steps of the TSBD 3-4 minutes prior to Gloria Calvary running up to them with the news. How much longer were they there discussing the assassination with her? Somehow, we are to believe both men witnessed Truly and Baker entering the TSBD seconds after the last shot, yet both their testimonies would tell us this event had to take place at least three minutes post assassination, as they both testified to seeing Baker and Truly entering the TSBD AFTER they had left the front of the TSBD. Now, if just one of them had stated three minutes, I could put it down to the stress of the moment but two men saying the identical thing means either it really happened, or the two of them were telling the same well rehearsed lie.

I am beginning to wonder if the whole trip by Lovelady (and Shelley) to the rail yard ever happened.

Robert,

The problem for me is that the two guys walking down the Elm Street Extension towards the parking lot / railway yard in the Couch film (as police officer Marion Baker is running towards the TSBD front door) really do look like Shelley and Lovelady to me! And the woman wearing the black dress and the white top who is seen running past them towards the TSBD front door might have been Gloria Calvery.

But on second thought, that couldn't be Calvery because she is in other photographs wearing a light-colored dress and a dark-colored blouse or coat.

--Tommy

Edited March 28, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

For that to be Shelley and Lovelady in the Couch film, heading down the Elm St. extension as Baker runs into the TSBD, they would have had to leave the steps almost at the time of the last shot, in order to be so far away from the steps at the time of Baker's arrival. How could either one of them testify 3-4 minutes elapsed prior to Gloria Calvary's arrival with the news of the assassination? Also, they do not mention leaving the steps before Gloria's arrival but give every indication they were on the steps when she arrived with the news. Lovelady also testified to asking Calvary for more details of the assassination, something that would be difficult to do if someone was running away from you, and something that would also consume more time; a precious commodity at this point considering the split second timing needed to place Baker on the 2nd floor at the same time as the assassin.

Then, we arrive back at the Martin and Hughes film clearly showing Lovelady in front of the TSBD 8-15 minutes after the assassination, as claimed by Groden. Lovelady, according to his testimony, should be inside of the locked down TSBD at this point, having re-entered the building from the rear after his trip to the rail yard, and cannot be at the foot of the front steps of the TSBD; open checkered shirt or no open checkered shirt.

I believe we have caught Mr. Lovelady out in a lie here, and I also believe Lovelady was put up to this lie by persons with a need to discredit Victoria Adams' testimony about her and Sandra Styles descending the back stairs of the TSBD immediately after the last shot was fired. Adams was the fly in the ointment, and her not seeing Oswald descending the back stairs or, for that matter, Baker and Truly ascending the back stairs, had the potential to exonerate Oswald and destroy the entire lone nut story. It was absolutely vital to discredit Adams by attempting to show she had stayed on the 4th floor for a minimum of 4-5 minutes; long enough for Oswald to make his way down to the 1st floor, and for Baker and Truly to make their way up to the 6th floor.

As I said before, if the time of the scenes showing Lovelady out in front of the TSBD in the Martin and Hughes film can be verified, I think we have a very good case that Lovelady stayed on the front steps of the TSBD.

"Mr. Ball - Who did you see in the first floor?

Mr. Lovelady - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie."

P.S.

Who looks more like Lovelady, the fellow in the Couch film, or the fellow in the checkered shirt seen in the Martin and Hughes films?

Edited December 3, 2014 by Robert Prudhomme

[Paul Brancato]

I'd like to go back to officer Baker's sworn affidavit. I'm struck by his description of seeing a TSBD employee coming down the steps around 3-4 floor. His description - 5'9" 165 lbs - isn't that close to the description of the possible shooter that went out by police dispatch 15 minutes after the assassination? It doesn't sound like Oswald though, nor does the location in the building.

This thread is generally hard for me to follow. The films and photos are interesting, and I have a lot of respect for those that are able to minutely examine these films and try to put together who was standing on the steps and whether Lovelady lied about his whereabouts. What does come across clearly is that the DPD is an untrustworthy mess. I am starting to believe that prayerman is Oswald, though I still have a hard time believing that anyone would go back into the building and up to the lunchroom before exiting the building a few minutes later.

[Chris Davidson]

http://www21.zippyshare.com/v/76365163/file.html

A better copy from Hughes.

btw, I don't supply these gifs to represent a particular position on this issue.

chris

[Robert Prudhomme]

Thanks Chris. I don't suppose you have any idea how long after the assassination the segment showing Lovelady in front of the TSBD was taken, do you?

[Chris Davidson]

Robert,

Too much footage and too many splices to cover.

Plus, you need overlapping events in the different films to come close.

This may be of some help.

Added: Come to think of it. I believe Martin Hinrichs created a fairly extensive post-assassination timeline among the different films/photos. I just don't remember how far he went. It might be worthwhile to find out.

http://www.savingjackiek.com/conspiracy_timeline.html

chris

Edited December 3, 2014 by Chris Davidson

[James R Gordon]

Paul,

You mentioned that you'd like to go back to officer Baker's sworn affidavit. As I remember Sean Murphy's work - which was mainly carried out in JFKLancer - Officer Baker was one of the key elements. Sean was able to document exactly where he was clearly wrong in his statements and what implications that has for Oswald. He traced minute by minute Baker's entrance into the TSBD and his progress through the TSBD. Unfortunately I do not remember all the details. But Sean's documentation of those few minutes and their implication was very impressive.

James

[Pat Speer]

I don't remember if this info has already been discussed, but I think it's pertinent. When shown the Altgens photo by the FBI, Shelley said he was on the steps but wasn't in the picture.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10786&relPageId=14

Someone asked Frazier about Shelley in Dallas at the Lancer Conference, for that matter, and he said Shelley was a small man with red hair. Could Prayer Man be Shelley? If Prayer Man was Shelley, it might put the "out front with Bill Shelley" notes in a different context. Perhaps, even, Oswald was on the first floor just before the shooting, and saw Shelley out beyond the doors, but never went outside. Perhaps he then doubled-back after missing the motorcade, walked across the second floor to the lunch room, and arrived there about the same time as Baker and Truly arrived there after running up the back stairs. If I recall, the only obstacle to this possibility is Geneva Hine. And I believe Groden claims she said something about seeing Oswald around the time of the shooting. Maybe there's something to that, after all.

P.S. I spoke to Buell Frazier's son in Dallas and asked him to show his dad photos of prayer man to see if he could figure out who it is, whether Stanton, Shelley, Oswald, or someone so far unnamed. I hope he responds.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Pat Speer

[Larry Hancock]

Pat, I recall Frazier talking about someone who was quite short and he advised the fellow to go way down front on the stairs...do you recall who that was? My impression was the Frazier was indicating he was at the top of the stairs behind everyone else and with his height that gave him the best view other than the short fellow down front. I asked him several questions but should have asked if he thought he had been the top person on the stairs....

[Pat Speer]

At the Lancer Conference, Frazier confirmed that he wasn't in the Altgens photo as he was in the back out of sight. This would seem to confirm the ID of him as the person to the left of Prayer Man. If you're in touch with Frazier's son, you may want to put a bug in his ear about this issue. He seems fairly protective of his father, to the point where he'd want to prevent people getting all aggro about his dad shooting down Prayer Man, but he also appeared to understand that his father is in a unique position to set the record straight on certain issues, including this one.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Chris

Thanks for that link. Unfortunately, it mentions nothing about the timelines of the Martin/Hughes films, and at what precise time they captured Lovelady on film in front of the TSBD.

Actually, any photo of Lovelady at the front steps of the TSBD taken any time after Baker entered the building pretty much puts the lie to Lovelady's WC testimony.

[Thomas Graves]

Chris

Thanks for that link. Unfortunately, it mentions nothing about the timelines of the Martin/Hughes films, and at what precise time they captured Lovelady on film in front of the TSBD.

Actually, any photo of Lovelady at the front steps of the TSBD taken any time after Baker entered the building pretty much puts the lie to Lovelady's WC testimony.

Robert,

I don't know if it will help us "time stamp" the Martin and Hughes clips, but Bonnie Ray Williams is visible in both clips. He's on the left side and about halfway up the steps, wearing a brown shirt, and he turns his head a little bit towards the camera at the end of the clip.

Danny Arce, wearing his black raincoat, can also be seen (but only in the Martin clip) as he hovers from right to left on the sidewalk.

The policeman manning the door lets a short black man in. A man in a suit seems to be waiting for him inside. (James "Junior" Jarman and Harold "Shorty" Norman were black and short, weren't they?)

Note also the two hardhat-wearing guys who walk in from the left in the Hughes clip. Could the one in front Howard Brennan?

Does anyone know the identity of the woman wearing the black (or dark blue) jacket and dark headscarf and carrying some white bags. In the Martin and Hughes clips she's right behind the policeman who goes in, and she looks like she wants to go in, too. I figure she was a TSBD employee and may have made a report or given testimony. She's also visible in the Mal Couch film walking from right to left as policeman Marion Baker runs towards the front door of the TSBD...

[credit: Gerda Dunckel]

The reason I'm posting the following testimony and photographs is to try to help us "time stamp" the John Martin and Robert Hughes "clips" which clearly show Lovelady in front of the TSBD shortly after the assassination.

Howard Norman and James Jarman must have been in front of the TSBD when Norman heard the police lock it down, or at least the front door part of it. (LOL)

It obviously wasn't locked down when they left it.

Do we know what time the police stopped letting people leave the TSBD through the front door?

From Harold Norman's Warren Commission Testimony

The CHAIRMAN. Did you see [Howard] Brennan down there when you came downstairs? Did you come out the front door?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I came out the front door and I remember seeing Mr. Brennan.

Mr. BELIN. About how long after the shooting was that?

Mr. NORMAN. It wasn't very long because--I can't remember the time but it wasn't too long a period of time, and I remember seeing him because he had on a steel helmet, a little steel helmet.

Representative FORD. Was he standing with another man and they called you over?

Mr. NORMAN. I don't know if he was exactly standing with another man, but it was several people standing around there, and I remember him talking and I believe I remember him saying that he saw us when we first went up to the fifth floor window, he saw us then. I believe I heard him say that, but otherwise I don't know if he was standing by. There was quite a few people standing around there.

Representative FORD. You were stopped and Mr. Brennan made these comments?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I remember.

Representative FORD. On the front entrance steps?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Of the Depository Building?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Then did you go out of the building, away from the building or come back?

Mr. NORMAN. No, sir; we had to go back inside.

The CHAIRMAN. You had to go back?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. In other words, you went out in front?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And then came back?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. After you had gone to the first floor.

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Did law enforcement officers make you go back or did you do it on your own initiative?

Mr. NORMAN. I remember, I don't know if this is the only time or not, but I remember the law enforcement saying not to let anybody leave from the building and I can't remember if that is the time we went back in the building or before or what.

Mr. BALL. Who did you go out with?

Mr. NORMAN. I know James Jarman and I went out, I can't remember--

Here's Howard Brennan on the front steps about the same time the Martin and Hughes "clips" were filmed:

The tall, dark complected, grey suit-wearing guy in the right foreground of the above photo reminds me of the tall, dark-complected, grey suit-wearing guy who keeps scratching the back of his neck at 3:58 in the Black Op Radio video 50 Reasons for 50 Years, episode 4 . The part I'm talking about is from the James Doyle film of Oswald's arrest on 8/09/63 in New Orleans.

(Do we know where David Sanchez Morales was on 11/22/63?)

In the below photo, we can see Howard Brennan in the background talking with about six people including a policeman (white hat) and two fedora-wearing guys who look suspiciously like Rip Robertson and John Adrian O'Hare.

Could Brennan and the other hard hat guy in the foreground be the two "hard hats" we see walking in from the left in the Hughes clip?

--Tommy

Edited December 5, 2014 by Thomas Graves