Pat Speer Posted November 4, 2008 Share Posted November 4, 2008 This program sounds like another orchestrated lie, a la Beyond the Magic Bullet. I'm finally starting to face the fact that this program is not a series of out-takes, but a brand new program designed to rehash the same old lies. I wrote the producers of this series a few years back and went through Beyond the Magic Bullet point by point, scene by scene, demonstrating beyond any doubt that the program was incredibly deceptive. I never received a response. That they have popped back up to tell more lies without ever addressing the issues I raised by the last one is most disappointing. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt--I tend to believe that people like Bugliosi and Posner actually believe their nonsense, and lie due to some blind spot or reckless disregard for the truth. But I find it hard to believe the producers of these programs have any interest in the truth. They're just spinning factoids to fit an agenda, and impress someone they want to impress. And depressing the heck out of those actually concerned with the truth. Oh well, it looks like I'll have to add another section to chapter 12b. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Brown Posted November 4, 2008 Author Share Posted November 4, 2008 This program sounds like another orchestrated lie, a la Beyond the Magic Bullet. I'm finally starting to face the fact that this program is not a series of out-takes, but a brand new program designed to rehash the same old lies. I wrote the producers of this series a few years back and went through Beyond the Magic Bullet point by point, scene by scene, demonstrating beyond any doubt that the program was incredibly deceptive. I never received a response. That they have popped back up to tell more lies without ever addressing the issues I raised by the last one is most disappointing. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt--I tend to believe that people like Bugliosi and Posner actually believe their nonsense, and lie due to some blind spot or reckless disregard for the truth. But I find it hard to believe the producers of these programs have any interest in the truth. They're just spinning factoids to fit an agenda, and impress someone they want to impress. And depressing the heck out of those actually concerned with the truth. Oh well, it looks like I'll have to add another section to chapter 12b. This is new material from a test done this summer. It says that in the press release, but not clearly. The press release goes from one level of acknowledging that they were making a case for the Z313 bullet coming from the TSBD to claiming they had duplicated the WCR. This jump to the next level isn't even valid. We have watched over the years how the media has been used to push the WCR agendas. The NBC White Paper against Garrison had a devastating effect on his credibility until people could re-orient it for the propaganda piece that it was. There also seems to be a great deal of money available for pushing the WCR line too. Another factor is Gary Mack -- he sits in the TSBD/6th Floor Museum with a purpose of maintaining the ongoing cover-up. That is his job. He controls to a big extent the programs that are produced. Almost everyone goes to him at one point or another; so the question becomes, once you see that he is involved, to what extent is the program co-opted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathleen Collins Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 What garbage......If you use altered, doctored and fabricated evidence as your starting point you will get a bogus result......BS in BS out........The throat shot was from the front........The wound in the back was too low to exit his neck and hit Connally......Exit wound in back of JFK head.......Miss that wounded Teague.......Miss that hit sewer apron on Elm.....Miss that hit street behind JFK limo......Miss that hit sidewalk in front of knoll......Miss that hit chrome on front winshield and possibly windshield itself......Wounds to Connally........Evidence of doctored Z film........Altered autopsy photos.......Altered X-rays.....Missing autopsy photos.......Missing brain........I can go on and on.....I am sure these are all addressed adequately in this LN piece of crap.......Spare us....... I saw a photo one time of Kennedy on an upside down autopsy table. The photo showed an entrance bullet wound under his hair at the hairline. I never saw this photo again. Did this picture in fact exist? I never see it mentioned anywhere and everytime I ask about it, I'm ignored. Wouldn't it be shown or mentioned as evidence of being hit from the front? Kathy C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Brown Posted November 9, 2008 Author Share Posted November 9, 2008 That would be the JFK 'stare of death' photo. A copy of it is included in the updated BE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Brown Posted November 9, 2008 Author Share Posted November 9, 2008 Since I have been cut loose from the program and did not sign anything but a typical release for the interview, I should be able to discuss it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Brown Posted November 12, 2008 Author Share Posted November 12, 2008 Saying anything after a program is released, and out there, and that barn door has been opened, and the horse is out, has done absolutely no good in the past. B..... I am speaking prior to the release. We can tell that the DC has thrown down a gauntlet. The intention appears to be not only to find some new converts, but to cause a reaction in the CT community. My advice is to not react, but just to calmly analyze whatever is shown and how it is shown. Why would anyone try to use a tv program to conclusively *prove* anything? What were they thinking? Even the press release shows us that this is not a show intended for critical scrutiny. They are attempting to tell the public what to think -- and any researcher ought to know better than to allow that to happen. The intent seems to be to discard all *possible* sources of the Z313 shot *except* for the TSBD. Trying to make a case for a TSBD shot is one thing, and perfectly ok; trying to claim it proves something *exclusively* puts them at a higher level, with an almost impossibly high bar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Jeffries Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 Pamela, Your question about why anyone would want to use a t.v. show to "prove" anything is a great one. Since it's demonstrably true that a lot of someones have used television to continually try and "prove" that JFK was killed by Oswald alone, I can only think of one reasonable answer. There was a huge conspiracy behind the assassination of JFK, and those who run the television networks-even now, 45 years later-must maintain the coverup in order to keep their lucrative positions. I remember being struck at how vast this conspiracy must have been when I watched an episode of "Quantum Leap" back in 1991 or so. Timed to respond to the furur surrounding Oliver Stone's "JFK," this episode used its sci-fi platform to fully endorse the official story, after teasing its viewers about "conspiracy" in countless promos. They didn't fool me. Just imagine a conspiracy so important that a sci-fi television program must conform to the coverup perpetuating it, nearly 30 years afterwards. I have been similarly struck over the years by "controversial" celebrities like Howard Stern and Penn Jillette, when they volunteered their strong beliefs in the lone-assassin myth. Even Kevin Costner, before he was cast as Garrison in "JFK," asked that his own opinion that Oswald acted alone be made a part of the script for his movie "Bull Durham." I read an interview with him where he stated that he felt so strongly about this that he asked that his character be allowed to state it, during a rant that has nothing to do with the subject. Presumably, he converted to the conspiracy view after being hired for "JFK," but who knows? He's an actor, after all. I do know that Stone's first choice for Garrison, Harrison Ford, refused the role because he disagreed with the conspiracy premise. I never liked him anyway.... I don't know how Nigel Turner got "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" to air so often on the History Channel. Curiously, after the now banned LBJ episode aired a single time (mentioned earlier by Bernice), TMWKK doesn't seem to be a regular part of the History Channel lineup any longer. It used to be broadcast a few times a year- I haven't seen it on television for a while. While there have been a few minor programs broadast on smaller networks in the 1980s-early 1990s (a college thesis turned into a documentary on the single bullet theory called "Reasonable Doubt" being one of the best), TMWKK really stands alone for a television documentary, just as "JFK" pretty much stands alone in Hollywood history. I think the program Michael mentioned earlier might have been part of one of the later episodes of TMWKK. The mention of Gary Mack was appropriate. He has indeed turned into THE expert on the subject, in the eyes of the mainstream press. Many people who post on this and other forums seem to feel the same way, as he is often quoted as the ultimate source on just about everything assassination related, with little recognition that he has a clear agenda and is not exactly unbiased on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Roberdeau Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 Good Day.... There will be a preview of the ITTC documentary shown in the Thursday, 11-13-08, NBC nationally broadcast, "Nightly News with Brian Williams." The ITTC utilizes some of my work. Best Regards in Research, Don Don Roberdeau U.S.S. John F. Kennedy, CV-67, "Big John," Plank Walker Sooner, or later, The Truth emerges Clearly Discovery: ROSEMARY WILLIS's Zapruder Film Documented 2nd Headsnap: West, Ultrafast, & Directly Towards the "Grassy Knoll" http://ftp.hometown.aol.com/droberdeau/JFK...NOUNCEMENT.html Dealey Plaza Professionally-surveyed Map Detailing 11-22-63 Victims precise locations, Witnesses, Photographers, Evidence, Suspected bullet trajectories, Important information & Considerations http://ftp.hometown.aol.com/droberdeau/JFK/DP.jpg President Kennedy "Men of Courage" Speech, & JFK Assassination Research & Discoveries, Don Roberdeau, 1975 to Present http://ftp.hometown.aol.com/droberdeau/ T ogether E veryone A chieves M ore National Terror Alert for the United States: "Drehm seemed to think the shots came from in FRONT OF or BESIDE the president." (my EMPHASIS) CHARLES F. BREHM, a combat gunfire experienced, United States Army Ranger, World War II, D-day veteran, & very close Dealey Plaza attack witness, quoted only minutes after the attack, and while he was still standing within Dealey Plaza (11-22-63 "Dallas Times Herald," appeared only in the fifth & final daily edition, which mis-spelled his name) "I happened to be about fifteen feet away from the president when the FIRST SHOT HIT HIM. There is some discussion now as to whether there was one or two shots that hit him, but the first shot rang out, and, I was positive when I saw the look on his face, and saw him grab his chest, and saw the reaction of his wife that he had been shot, and at that time, which was probably a few seconds later --- the second shot rang out --- and he just, absolutely, went down into the seat of the car. There was a third shot that 'went,' and by that time i had grabbed my little five-year-old boy who was with me and ran away from scene of the thing, but, the only thing that I did witness --- and something I'm sorry I did witness, very honestly --- was that, the look on his face when that shot hit, and the look again on him and his wife's face when the shots started to ring out and it was, very obviously, that he was hit. The first two shots that were heard, and ---- the FIRST ONE HIT the president --- there was no doubt, whatsoever, because his face winced, and he grabbed at himself, and he slumped down. I do believe, without any doubt, that the second one hit him because he had an immediate reaction with that second shot. I do know there was a third shot but as I said by that time I had grabbed my boy and started to go." (my EMPHASIS) CHARLES F. BREHM, a combat gunfire experienced, United States Army Ranger, World War II, D-day veteran, & very close Dealey Plaza attack witness, quoted only minutes after the attack in a report he gave over the radio, 11-22-63) "Another eyewitness, Charles Brehm, said he was 15 feet away from the President when he was shot. 'He was waving, then the FIRST shot hit him and that awful look crossed his face.' " (my EMPHASIS) CHARLES F. BREHM, a combat gunfire experienced, United States Army Ranger, World War II, D-day veteran, & very close Dealey Plaza attack witness (quoted to the "Associated Press," 11-22-63) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Crane Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 (edited) I just realized what I said in a previous post & thought that I should correct myself.The X-ray might not have been "altered" but probably was taken after the reconstruction of the head IMO. Edited November 13, 2008 by Michael Crane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Brown Posted November 13, 2008 Author Share Posted November 13, 2008 Good Day.... There will be a preview of the ITTC documentary shown in the Thursday, 11-13-08, NBC nationally broadcast, "Nightly News ith Brian Williams." The ITTC utilizes some of my work. Best Regards in Research, Dealey Plaza Professionally-surveyed Map Detailing 11-22-63 Victims precise locations, Witnesses, Photographers, Evidence, Suspected bullet trajectories, Important information & Considerations http://ftp.hometown.aol.com/droberdeau/JFK/DP.jpg With all due respect, the angle of JFK's head at Z313 on your diagram of Dealey Plaza does not seem to be correct. What sources did you use to come up with that determination? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Brown Posted November 13, 2008 Author Share Posted November 13, 2008 Pamela,Your question about why anyone would want to use a t.v. show to "prove" anything is a great one. Since it's demonstrably true that a lot of someones have used television to continually try and "prove" that JFK was killed by Oswald alone, I can only think of one reasonable answer. There was a huge conspiracy behind the assassination of JFK, and those who run the television networks-even now, 45 years later-must maintain the coverup in order to keep their lucrative positions. I remember being struck at how vast this conspiracy must have been when I watched an episode of "Quantum Leap" back in 1991 or so. Timed to respond to the furur surrounding Oliver Stone's "JFK," this episode used its sci-fi platform to fully endorse the official story, after teasing its viewers about "conspiracy" in countless promos. They didn't fool me. Just imagine a conspiracy so important that a sci-fi television program must conform to the coverup perpetuating it, nearly 30 years afterwards. I have been similarly struck over the years by "controversial" celebrities like Howard Stern and Penn Jillette, when they volunteered their strong beliefs in the lone-assassin myth. Even Kevin Costner, before he was cast as Garrison in "JFK," asked that his own opinion that Oswald acted alone be made a part of the script for his movie "Bull Durham." I read an interview with him where he stated that he felt so strongly about this that he asked that his character be allowed to state it, during a rant that has nothing to do with the subject. Presumably, he converted to the conspiracy view after being hired for "JFK," but who knows? He's an actor, after all. I do know that Stone's first choice for Garrison, Harrison Ford, refused the role because he disagreed with the conspiracy premise. I never liked him anyway.... I don't know how Nigel Turner got "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" to air so often on the History Channel. Curiously, after the now banned LBJ episode aired a single time (mentioned earlier by Bernice), TMWKK doesn't seem to be a regular part of the History Channel lineup any longer. It used to be broadcast a few times a year- I haven't seen it on television for a while. While there have been a few minor programs broadast on smaller networks in the 1980s-early 1990s (a college thesis turned into a documentary on the single bullet theory called "Reasonable Doubt" being one of the best), TMWKK really stands alone for a television documentary, just as "JFK" pretty much stands alone in Hollywood history. I think the program Michael mentioned earlier might have been part of one of the later episodes of TMWKK. The mention of Gary Mack was appropriate. He has indeed turned into THE expert on the subject, in the eyes of the mainstream press. Many people who post on this and other forums seem to feel the same way, as he is often quoted as the ultimate source on just about everything assassination related, with little recognition that he has a clear agenda and is not exactly unbiased on the subject. Apparently, the idea of using a tv show to persuade the masses is part of the American way of life. The networks are under the impression that they determine what we think about an issue. Remember before the start of the 2nd Gulf War how all the networks had those silly maps of Iraq on their floors and all the newscasters stumbled around on them? This was an unjust and illegal war, but the media blitz was intended to dull our senses and get us to go along with W and Blair. Of course, the irony is that the Disco Channel will try to call something like this a 'documentary' when it is nothing more than a one-sided polemic. It looks to be consistent with some of Leni Reifenstahls' offerings to her buddy Hitler, based on the hysterical press release. I do hope to be mistaken, but am not holding my breath. Getting anyone to say anything conspiracy-based on the networks is quite a challenge. There is very little money for that, but tons of money for those touting the party line. I worked on the FoxNews special in 2003 on the assassination and was pleased that they were more objective and discussed some CT issues. It was disappointing too, however, in that they had the opportunity to present new limo information that would have blown away the WCR scenario of the SBT, but chose not to use it. Apparently, they didn't really want to make waves. I agree too that there is much more pressure and control on our movie stars and celebrities to tow the party line as well. Not many have been able to speak their mind. There must be consequences if they do. The TMWKK segments I agree are a curious anomaly. They are quite far-out in the CT stratosphere, and yet were allowed to be viewed for a number of years. The last three episodes, however, must have caused great controversy, and for that reason were bought up and supressed (except for Youtube). Perhaps the earlier ones were 'safer'. The witness statements of Madeline Brown and Judyth Baker alone would be enough to shake things up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernice Moore Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 Saying anything after a program is released, and out there, and that barn door has been opened, and the horse is out, has done absolutely no good in the past. B..... I am speaking prior to the release. We can tell that the DC has thrown down a gauntlet. The intention appears to be not only to find some new converts, but to cause a reaction in the CT community. My advice is to not react, but just to calmly analyze whatever is shown and how it is shown. Why would anyone try to use a tv program to conclusively *prove* anything? What were they thinking? Even the press release shows us that this is not a show intended for critical scrutiny. They are attempting to tell the public what to think -- and any researcher ought to know better than to allow that to happen. The intent seems to be to discard all *possible* sources of the Z313 shot *except* for the TSBD. Trying to make a case for a TSBD shot is one thing, and perfectly ok; trying to claim it proves something *exclusively* puts them at a higher level, with an almost impossibly high bar. ************** That is exactly what they have done for 45 years through commissions, reports, books, articles, documentaries,and telly, nothing has changed... This certainly is far from new, to any who have been into it for many of those years...the Z313,TSBD, Oswald has been exclusively pushed....so very many times.....that is what they have been trying to prove,to the public, which has not worked, as the majority have and do believe it was a conspiracy since 64... Go back to 67 they did the same with the W/R..telly edition with good ole Dan Rather.....D.C threw that gauntlet down back in 64, when the W/C was released...and they continue.. The shots came from the TSBD, by the LA..Oswald and Z313 is the shot that hit him in the head from the back, and that is when the POTUS..was killed......... Same old to analyse, so stay quiet and sit back and let them do so, without a word, so the public out there, before they see the program do not hear a word of dissent from others about such...and some can possibly be led astray, in particular young people.....who perhaps have not studied, not even seen the movie JFK...... ..It is nothing more than another ho hum...distorted Discovery Channel one sided documentary.... No thanks...I don't think so...... This is not their first by far , they have all been cut out of the same piece of cloth, so no it is not the dedicated researchers that have been fooled.....they have been well aware for many years...... While others and some of the public, it does appear did fall for some of their many ploys.... B........[/b] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl Kinaski Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 (edited) Crazy, its like sombody would make a WW 2 prime- time- doku in germany with the statement: there were no gas- chambers in Auschwitz... With one difference: you go to jail in europe, when you claim in public "there were no gas chambers." KK Edited November 13, 2008 by Karl Kinaski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Roberdeau Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 Good Day.... There will be a preview of the ITTC documentary shown in the Thursday, 11-13-08, NBC nationally broadcast, "Nightly News ith Brian Williams." The ITTC utilizes some of my work. Best Regards in Research, Dealey Plaza Professionally-surveyed Map Detailing 11-22-63 Victims precise locations, Witnesses, Photographers, Evidence, Suspected bullet trajectories, Important information & Considerations http://ftp.hometown.aol.com/droberdeau/JFK/DP.jpg With all due respect, the angle of JFK's head at Z313 on your diagram of Dealey Plaza does not seem to be correct. What sources did you use to come up with that determination? ....Good Day Pamela.... My own personal calculations, utilizing photogametry of all of the Z-313 equivalent films. My calculations very closely match what THOMAS N. CANNING, the NASA Space Project Division, "Ames Research Center" Engineer also calculated and testified to the HSCA about.... http://jfkassassination.net/russ/jfkinfo/canning.htm http://jfkassassination.net/russ/infojfk/jfk6/traj.htm Some of the more detailed visual representations based on my calculations for President KENNEDY's Z-312/313 head facing direction are available here.... http://ftp.hometown.aol.com/droberdeau/JFK...RAJECTORIES.gif ....and.... http://ftp.hometown.aol.com/droberdeau/JFK...TORIESviews.gif What do your calculations seem to show, and, have you completed a diagram for posting for everyone showing your President KENNEDY Z-312/313 head facing direction? Best Regards in Research, Don Don Roberdeau U.S.S. John F. Kennedy, CV-67, "Big John," Plank Walker Sooner, or later, The Truth emerges Clearly Discovery: ROSEMARY WILLIS's Zapruder Film Documented 2nd Headsnap: West, Ultrafast, & Directly Towards the "Grassy Knoll" http://ftp.hometown.aol.com/droberdeau/JFK...NOUNCEMENT.html Dealey Plaza Professionally-surveyed Map Detailing 11-22-63 Victims precise locations, Witnesses, Photographers, Evidence, Suspected bullet trajectories, Important information & Considerations http://ftp.hometown.aol.com/droberdeau/JFK/DP.jpg President Kennedy "Men of Courage" Speech, & JFK Assassination Research & Discoveries, Don Roberdeau, 1975 to Present http://ftp.hometown.aol.com/droberdeau/ T ogether E veryone A chieves M ore National Terror Alert for the United States: "Drehm seemed to think the shots came from in FRONT OF or BESIDE the president." (my EMPHASIS) CHARLES F. BREHM, a combat gunfire experienced, United States Army Ranger, World War II, D-day veteran, & very close Dealey Plaza attack witness, quoted only minutes after the attack, and while he was still standing within Dealey Plaza (11-22-63 "Dallas Times Herald," appeared only in the fifth & final daily edition, which mis-spelled his name) "I happened to be about fifteen feet away from the president when the FIRST SHOT HIT HIM. There is some discussion now as to whether there was one or two shots that hit him, but the first shot rang out, and, I was positive when I saw the look on his face, and saw him grab his chest, and saw the reaction of his wife that he had been shot, and at that time, which was probably a few seconds later --- the second shot rang out --- and he just, absolutely, went down into the seat of the car. There was a third shot that 'went,' and by that time i had grabbed my little five-year-old boy who was with me and ran away from scene of the thing, but, the only thing that I did witness --- and something I'm sorry I did witness, very honestly --- was that, the look on his face when that shot hit, and the look again on him and his wife's face when the shots started to ring out and it was, very obviously, that he was hit. The first two shots that were heard, and ---- the FIRST ONE HIT the president --- there was no doubt, whatsoever, because his face winced, and he grabbed at himself, and he slumped down. I do believe, without any doubt, that the second one hit him because he had an immediate reaction with that second shot. I do know there was a third shot but as I said by that time I had grabbed my boy and started to go." (my EMPHASIS) CHARLES F. BREHM, a combat gunfire experienced, United States Army Ranger, World War II, D-day veteran, & very close Dealey Plaza attack witness, quoted only minutes after the attack in a report he gave over the radio, 11-22-63) "Another eyewitness, Charles Brehm, said he was 15 feet away from the President when he was shot. 'He was waving, then the FIRST shot hit him and that awful look crossed his face.' " (my EMPHASIS) CHARLES F. BREHM, a combat gunfire experienced, United States Army Ranger, World War II, D-day veteran, & very close Dealey Plaza attack witness (quoted to the "Associated Press," 11-22-63) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 Another factor is Gary Mack -- he sits in the TSBD/6th Floor Museum with a purpose of maintaining the ongoing cover-up. That is his job. He controls to a big extent the programs that are produced. Almost everyone goes to him at one point or another; so the question becomes, once you see that he is involved, to what extent is the program co-opted? I am confused here and seek clarification. Didn't someone recently post a correspondence from Mack whereas Gary still supported the evidence in Jack White's Badge Man work ... How is that maintaining a cover-up??? Also, How does Mack control the programs that are produced when there have been times that they were produced despite Mack pulling out of them because they were not being scientifically done??? Thanks for any clarification that anyone may have to offer. Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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