Dealey Plaza lampposts...

[Bill Miller]

difference in camera? different elevation/ location of photographer? wrong thinking behind scaling?

Thanks for your reply, John. Good thinking, but...

The further the distance objects are from the camera when the locations change - the less they will shift with other objects. The lamppost recreation is flawed because the gaps between the colonnade windows do not even match.

Also, I believe that it wasn't until 1983 before the lamppost were changed, thus there was ample time for researchers to document the plaza since the assassination before lighting improvements were made ...(possibly to give better lighting for the tourist visiting the plaza during the evening hours.)

Bill Miller

Edited July 7, 2006 by Bill Miller

[Thomas H. Purvis]

difference in camera? different elevation/ location of photographer? wrong thinking behind scaling?

Thanks for your reply, John. Good thinking, but...

The further the distance objects are from the camera when the locations change - the less they will shift with other objects. The lamppost recreation is flawed because the gaps between the colonnade windows do not even match.

Also, I believe that it wasn't until 1983 before the lamppost were changed, thus there was ample time for researchers to document the plaza since the assassination before lighting improvements were made u...(possibly to give better lighting for the tourist visiting the plaza during the evening hors.)

Bill Miller

...(possibly to give better lighting for the tourist visiting the plaza during the evening hors.)

Well!

I would guess that pretty well wraps the subject up.

Personally, I have no doubts that movement of the lamp posts off the street curb area, back into the grassy area of Elm St. certainly aided those persons walking through the grass.

However!

I am referring to the movement of the lamp posts along side the curb in which their original position was displaced by less than 2-feet.

Since the movement of the posts was limited to less than an 18-inch to 24-inch displacement from their original position alongside the curb on Elm St., then there can be little doubt as to how much better that this aided the lighting alongside the street.

Just do not know why I did not think of this highly rational answer!

Lastly, the position of the lamp posts, as well as the sign posts; the yellow marks on the curb; and the curb inlet cover are critical items in computation of distance travelled on Elm St. by the Presidential vehicle.

All of which also relates to elapsed frames of the Z-film.

One can utilize the "long range" singular background items in attempt to exactly locate the position of JFK at various points along the street.

However, not unlike survey, having three points of alignment is what gives the accurate location.

So, in most instances on the Z-film, the "far" points of alignment have been made to disappear to the extent possible.

And, of course, the "near" points of alignment (road sign posts/lamp posts/) have now managed to move.

Most of which is merely to prevent most from recognizing exactly how completely PHONY the WC re-enactment (& photographs) actually are.

Which eventually leads to exactly how many frames of the Z-film elapses if the vehicle is moving slow?

And the answer being: 18.3 frames per second, just that the distance covered on Elm St. is considerably less for a slow moving vehicle than it is for a fast moving vehicle.

Which translates back to exactly how many frames did the original Z-film possess back when the Presidential Limousine was going slow, and in fact almost came to a complete stop.

[Bill Miller]

By my estimate, the POLE THAT WAS NOT PRESENT IN 1963 has had

at least FOUR INCARNATIONS...changing heights and bases, etc, for

NO APPARENT PURPOSE. Lots of trouble to do this. Why?

Opinions?

Jack

in·car·na·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (nkär-nshn)

n.

The act of incarnating.

The condition of being incarnated.

Incarnation Christianity. The doctrine that the Son of God was conceived in the womb of Mary and that Jesus is true God and true man.

A bodily manifestation of a supernatural being.

One who is believed to personify a given abstract quality or idea.

A period of time passed in a given bodily form or condition: hopes for a better life in another incarnation.

Gary Mack tells me that he 'has been with the Museum full-time since 1994 and have seen several Dealey

Plaza lampposts replaced over the years, including the one Jack is

ruminating about. The posts get damaged from the elements and, on rare

occasions, from traffic accidents. The city tries to keep the posts as

close as possible to those in 1963, but that style just isn't manufactured

anymore.'

Bill Miller

[Len Colby]

I fail to see what the big deal is? Is the city of Dallas expected to maintain DP exactly as it was Nov. 22 1963 forever? They changed the location of the lamposts who cares as Bill pointed out this won't affect recreations of images taken that day.

Jack you live in Dallas (or is it Ft. Worth) are you sure the lamposts and street signs etc in front of your house amnd elsewhere in the city haven't moved in the last 43 years or so? Did you check to to see if lampposts were moved away from the curd elsewhere in the city?

As for them having moved it or changed its base etc 4 times even if its true its been a long time, once it was moved from its original location what difference would all subsiquent moves and changes make? No apperent purpose you say, what is your training in urban planning / traffic engineering. Can you show that posts elsewhere have undergone similar changes? One change per decade does not strike me as suspicious.

[Len Colby]

I have a challenge for Jack.

Jack you own, if I'm not mistaken, a very large collection of historic photos of Dallas. Can you show us any photos taken in that city around the time of the assassination where the lampposts are exactly as they are today? Hopefully the locations will be close to DP. If you fail to produce such photos I'll take it as an admission on your part you can't find any photos of lampposts in the city that are exactly as they were over 40 years ago.

Len

PS - Jack you are in violation of the forum rule requiring all members to provide a bio. The link at the bottom of your posts leads to a generic page from your ISP/host.

Edited July 8, 2006 by Len Colby

[Bill Miller]

I fail to see what the big deal is? Is the city of Dallas expected to maintain DP exactly as it was Nov. 22 1963 forever? They changed the location of the lamposts who cares as Bill pointed out this won't affect recreations of images taken that day.

That's right. The colonnades, the pedestals, the wall on the knoll, the steps leading up to the walkway, the trees, the width of the street, the sidewalks, the manhole cover, the triple underpass, and so on are still the same as they always were. Singling out the lamppost as if they prevent one from being able to conduct accurate recreation studies is like complaining that the grass has been cut since the assassination in order to prevent people from easily carrying out any research in the plaza. Besides that .... the lamppost are not responsible for the mistakes I have seen with Jack's recreation efforts, thus they have little value to researchers unless one has an interest in vintage lamppost.

I will say this though on behalf of preserving the plaza .... I can understand lamppost being damaged over time and needing to be replaced .... and I also understand why one would not want to have different looking lamppost mixed in with the lamppost already in the plaza because we must understand that lamppost manufactures do discontinue some styles over time and we want them all to look the same, but I would think that there were many vintage lamppost throughout Dallas in other park areas like those in Dealey Plaza that could have been replaced with the newer styles and then those remaining good old style lamppost could have been utilized in the plaza for the sake of preserving the look of the plaza as much as possible. Of course, maybe no one though of that.

Bill Miller

Edited July 8, 2006 by Bill Miller

[David G. Healy]

'Len Colby' wrote:

Jack you own, if I'm not mistaken, a very large collection of historic photos of Dallas. Can you show us any photos taken in that city around the time of the assassination where the lampposts are exactly as they are today? Hopefully the locations will be close to DP. If you fail to produce such photos I'll take it as an admission on your part you can't find any photos of lampposts in the city that are exactly as they were over 40 years ago.

you obviously need to do a little research on Jacks DP photo work, why should anyone care about the rest of Dallas? As for you taking anyting admissions or otherwise, I suggest you do your job and fill us all in on the NEWLY IMPROVED Zavada report and progress leading to Roland and Ray Fielding posting same...

You're the man -- Where's the beef, go-between?

[Bill Miller]

Personally, I have no doubts that movement of the lamp posts off the street curb area, back into the grassy area of Elm St. certainly aided those persons walking through the grass.

However!

I am referring to the movement of the lamp posts along side the curb in which their original position was displaced by less than 2-feet.

Since the movement of the posts was limited to less than an 18-inch to 24-inch displacement from their original position alongside the curb on Elm St., then there can be little doubt as to how much better that this aided the lighting alongside the street.

Just do not know why I did not think of this highly rational answer!

Lastly, the position of the lamp posts, as well as the sign posts; the yellow marks on the curb; and the curb inlet cover are critical items in computation of distance travelled on Elm St. by the Presidential vehicle.

All of which also relates to elapsed frames of the Z-film.

One can utilize the "long range" singular background items in attempt to exactly locate the position of JFK at various points along the street.

However, not unlike survey, having three points of alignment is what gives the accurate location.

So, in most instances on the Z-film, the "far" points of alignment have been made to disappear to the extent possible.

Purvy, what ar the city specs now for the distance a lamppost should be from a curb ... surely you have checked before reaching a conclusion, so tell us what you found out?

Also, if you think that you cannot pinpoint JFK in the Zapruder film at certain points, then have you considered doing it with the Nix, Bronson, or Muchmore films where permanent landmarks ARE present in the background?

Bill Miller

you obviously need to do a little research on Jacks DP photo work, why should anyone care about the rest of Dallas?

I think if you have been paying close attention, then you would understand that if the street lamps all around Dallas were being replaced and moved back from the curbs, then there would not be anything suspicious about the lampspost in the plaza being different or moved back from the curb ... and this is why it is important to know certain things before jumping to a false conclusion, unless of course - false conclusions are what you are looking to promote. Do I detect another 'everything is altered thanks to my shoddy work' book coming out again?

As for you taking anyting admissions or otherwise, I suggest you do your job and fill us all in on the NEWLY IMPROVED Zavada report and progress leading to Roland and Ray Fielding posting same...

What exactly is Len's job and what do you consider to be yours, David? Thanks in advance!

Bill Miller

Edited July 8, 2006 by Bill Miller

[David G. Healy]

'Bill Miller' wrote:

[...]

Purvy, what ar the city specs now for the distance a lamppost should be from a curb ... surely you have checked before reaching a conclusion, so tell us what you found out?

Also, if you think that you cannot pinpoint JFK in the Zapruder film at certain points, then have you considered doing it with the Nix, Bronson, or Muchmore films where permanent landmarks ARE present in the background?

then you'll havwe no problem explainging why the Stemmons sign came down right after the assassination, right -- and who is "Purvy"? someone else backing you into a corner?

Bill Miller

you obviously need to do a little research on Jacks DP photo work, why should anyone care about the rest of Dallas?

I do? Simply sounds convenient to me... LMAO!

I think if you have been paying close attention, then you would understand that if the street lamps all around Dallas were being replaced and moved back from the curbs, then there would not be anything suspicious about the lampspost in the plaza being different or moved back from the curb ... and this is why it is important to know certain things before jumping to a false conclusion, unless of course - false conclusions are what you are looking to promote.

Coming to false conclusions? You have this infantile habit of attributing conclusions to other people that have no such conclusions, nor can you point to same. Your zealousness is showing again, you might want to do a little growing up, this is after all, an international forum. You want to give all JFK researchers that disagree with YOUR findings a bad name?

Do I detect another 'everything is altered thanks to my shoddy work' book coming out again?

dgh: I retract the above, you DO want to give ALL JFK researchers who disagree with you and your .gif animations a bad name

As for you taking anything admissions or otherwise, I suggest you do your job and fill us all in on the...

What exactly is Len's job and what do you consider to be yours, David? Thanks in advance!

dgh: You handling PR for or rewriting the new and improved Zavada report? If not, well, you know - Colby knows what he agreed to do for Roland -- so fancy that, you're name doesn't appear on the any email communication with Roland Zavada, have I missed something, or do you just FEEL left out? Thanks in advance for you cooperation

Bill Miller

Edited July 8, 2006 by David G. Healy

[Jack White]

'Len Colby' wrote:

Jack you own, if I'm not mistaken, a very large collection of historic photos of Dallas. Can you show us any photos taken in that city around the time of the assassination where the lampposts are exactly as they are today? Hopefully the locations will be close to DP. If you fail to produce such photos I'll take it as an admission on your part you can't find any photos of lampposts in the city that are exactly as they were over 40 years ago.

you obviously need to do a little research on Jacks DP photo work, why should anyone care about the rest of Dallas? As for you taking anyting admissions or otherwise, I suggest you do your job and fill us all in on the NEWLY IMPROVED Zavada report and progress leading to Roland and Ray Fielding posting same...

You're the man -- Where's the beef, go-between?

Colby as usual is misinformed. My collection of old photos (which I

donated to University of Texas Arlington) is of FORT WORTH, not

Dallas. I have very few Dallas photos, except regarding the assassination.

Colby apparently thinks Fort Worth is part of Dallas. Not so, Fort Worth,

for you guys is South America, is the 19TH LARGEST CITY IN THE US,

and trails only Las Vegas as the fastest growing. It is the home of

American Airlines, Burlington Northern, Radio Shack, Pier One,

Lockheed Martin, D.H. Horton, Bell Helicopter and other major corporations.

Jack

Edited July 8, 2006 by Jack White

[Bill Miller]

Colby as usual is misinformed. My collection of old photos (which I

donated to University of Texas Arlington) is of FORT WORTH, not

Dallas. I have very few Dallas photos, except regarding the assassination.

Colby apparently thinks Fort Worth is part of Dallas. Not so, Fort Worth,

for you guys is South America, is the 19TH LARGEST CITY IN THE US,

and trails only Las Vegas as the fastest growing. It is the home of

American Airlines, Burlington Northern, Radio Shack, Pier One,

Lockheed Martin, D.H. Horton and other major corporations.

Jack

How hard could it be to live in or around Dallas and find a source for photographs taken around the city over the years.

Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

you obviously need to do a little research on Jacks DP photo work, why should anyone care about the rest of Dallas?

I do? Simply sounds convenient to me... LMAO!

The above answer in bold print makes no sense to me, so I cannot address it. First you are critical as to why Len or anyone would care about the lamp selection throughout Dallas and then you say you do care.

Coming to false conclusions? You have this infantile habit of attributing conclusions to other people that have no such conclusions, nor can you point to same. Your zealousness is showing again, you might want to do a little growing up, this is after all, an international forum. You want to give all JFK researchers that disagree with YOUR findings a bad name?

I don't mind anyone not agreeing with me. The point I am trying to make is that I am constantly hearing about assertions and/or conclusions being drawn without first even checking out the basic facts. Right now I am hearing about the possibility of suspicious activity having gone over the movement of the lamppost in Dealey Plaza and not one word has been said as to whether the change in lighting locations was limited to DP or was it done throughout Dallas, perhaps by way of some new guidelines or ordinances

dgh: I retract the above, you DO want to give ALL JFK researchers who disagree with you and your .gif animations a bad name

I am not worried about it, so you shouldn't be either.

What exactly is Len's job and what do you consider to be yours, David? Thanks in advance!

dgh: You handling PR for or rewriting the new and improved Zavada report? If not, well, you know - Colby knows what he agreed to do for Roland -- so fancy that, you're name doesn't appear on the any email communication with Roland Zavada, have I missed something, or do you just FEEL left out? Thanks in advance for you cooperation

I think that the reading of the threads is not limited to certain members, but maybe you know something that I don't about that. So assuming for now that all the forum members are allowed to review all the post on the forum, I can only also assume that for us to better understand what is being said is to ask questions. My question was in response to something you said about 'Len's job' and I'd like to know what that is?

By the way, David ... when Len posted to Jack - you responded to Len even though his post was not directed to you. Were you feeling left out when you replied? Is it not right for others here to be afforded the same rights as you seem to want to have.

Bill Miller

Edited July 8, 2006 by Bill Miller

[Thomas H. Purvis]

'Bill Miller' wrote:

[...]

Purvy, what ar the city specs now for the distance a lamppost should be from a curb ... surely you have checked before reaching a conclusion, so tell us what you found out?

Also, if you think that you cannot pinpoint JFK in the Zapruder film at certain points, then have you considered doing it with the Nix, Bronson, or Muchmore films where permanent landmarks ARE present in the background?

then you'll havwe no problem explainging why the Stemmons sign came down right after the assassination, right -- and who is "Purvy"? someone else backing you into a corner?

Bill Miller

you obviously need to do a little research on Jacks DP photo work, why should anyone care about the rest of Dallas?

I do? Simply sounds convenient to me... LMAO!

I think if you have been paying close attention, then you would understand that if the street lamps all around Dallas were being replaced and moved back from the curbs, then there would not be anything suspicious about the lampspost in the plaza being different or moved back from the curb ... and this is why it is important to know certain things before jumping to a false conclusion, unless of course - false conclusions are what you are looking to promote.

Coming to false conclusions? You have this infantile habit of attributing conclusions to other people that have no such conclusions, nor can you point to same. Your zealousness is showing again, you might want to do a little growing up, this is after all, an international forum. You want to give all JFK researchers that disagree with YOUR findings a bad name?

Do I detect another 'everything is altered thanks to my shoddy work' book coming out again?

dgh: I retract the above, you DO want to give ALL JFK researchers who disagree with you and your .gif animations a bad name

As for you taking anything admissions or otherwise, I suggest you do your job and fill us all in on the...

What exactly is Len's job and what do you consider to be yours, David? Thanks in advance!

dgh: You handling PR for or rewriting the new and improved Zavada report? If not, well, you know - Colby knows what he agreed to do for Roland -- so fancy that, you're name doesn't appear on the any email communication with Roland Zavada, have I missed something, or do you just FEEL left out? Thanks in advance for you cooperation

Bill Miller

David;

The "first move" that I am aware of was laterally along the length of the curb. It had ZERO to do with any separation distance "from" the curb as the distance from the curb remained the same.

There was no "move back" from the curb that I am aware of except when the lamp posts were moved into the grassy area.

The lamp post issue is not unlike the "lateral" movement of the original road sign, in which the WC apparantly neglected to take into consideration the slight top of sign elevation change that this lateral movement would create.

Unless incorrect, was there not also an additional 3 to 4-inches or so of new asphalt added to the street later on?

[Bill Miller]

Unless incorrect, was there not also an additional 3 to 4-inches or so of new asphalt added to the street later on?

That would be incorrect. When the asphalt was removed from the street down to the original base - there was only about an inch or less of asphalt that had been on the street.

Bill Miller

[Jack White]

Unless incorrect, was there not also an additional 3 to 4-inches or so of new asphalt added to the street later on?

That would be incorrect. When the asphalt was removed from the street down to the original base - there was only about an inch or less of asphalt that had been on the street.

Bill Miller

Miller states an untruth, as usual. The attached photo, taken

from inside the drain, shows a buildup of asphalt of about three

or four inches, incicated by the arrow.

Jack