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There was another post that showed brake lights more clearly.

The consensus is 5-10 miles an hour.

A big heavy limo will COAST down that grade at 20 mph, so the car

was being braked and dramatically slowed during the ambush.

Is this the Dal Tex window or the TSBD ?

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Didn't they find empty shell casings on the roof of the Dal-Tex building a few years ago?

I believe it was the County Records Building across Elm from the Dal-Tex. And Shanet, I believe that photo was taken from the sniper's nest.

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First of all, Ryan is quick to rule out military snipers due to the number of shots and misses. What he is not taking into consideration is that we are dealing with a moving target that is not a norm for sniper training to begin with, plus a mover that is moving a varying speeds and angles, which makes a constant pan impossible and causes the shooter to rely on anticipation.

Just after President Kennedy's limousine passed the front steps of the TSBD, five witnesses saw a bullet strike the pavement on Elm Street near the right rear of the limousine. Witnesses saw this bullet kick up concrete toward the car...Thats just not a miss, that is FUBAR

No its not the norm for military snipers shooting at moving targets I agree, yet they do it everday in Iraq. Yes varying speeds and angles, but they were not drastic moves and angles, Did the limo slam on its breaks as a shot was fired? Then I could understand missing the limo all together, or did the ss agent put the peddle to the floor?

When I think of shooting and skill from a elevated position by a sniper, I think of SGT. Hancock who has the longest confirm kill's in Iraq, 1050 yards from a elevated position/building....

These are just my opinions, I state nothing on fact, And nobody else can when it comes to how the shots were fired. All anyone can do is give a opinion.

IMHO These were decent shooters firing at the president, IMHO Cuban exiles/ and there trainers, I have seen more evidence leading to these people being the feet on the ground then anyone else.

This is something that Al and I will have to agree to disagree.

Ryan,

With all due respect and you know I respect your opinions and abilities a great deal, IMHO you are generalizing here and not addressing what I am getting at. I have recently received a detailed report from the American Association of Snipers which deals with the study and compulation of statistics of 20 years of Law Enforcement Sniper engagements. The findings are consistent with what I have been basing my opinions on as to quality snipers engaging under less than ideal conditions both physically and mentally. I would be glad to scan off stats from the report to you. I have recently had a problem with my system and lost several e-mail addresses. If you would e-mail me, I will reply with the stats for your review.

Al

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  • 2 months later...
Hi Don,

The photos I posted came from a private collector who likes to remain anonymous. He secured them from a contact in the DPD.

I can only guess that the reason these images are not in the DPD archives is that this study contradicts the party line that Oswald was the lone gunman firing from the TSBD.

This collector also has DPD photographs taken from the roof of the County Records building. I think is it safe to assume that some members of the DPD did not buy the official story.

Here is another image taken from a high floor of the Dal Tex.

James

post-624-1114061003.jpg

I was looking at the image below yesterday, i beleive it is a Towner photo, and i zoomed in on the south east side of the Dal Tex Building.

There appears to be a man sitting in the 2nd floor window. ?

Edited by Robin Unger
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Is this from the corner of the records bldg.? (from cache gathered while browsing the web)

Edited by John Dolva
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an alternative view, in this instance from the s-e corner roof of the postal annex. (cropped vidcap from 'JFK')

edit: the location of lightpoles height of trees etc show its not a image from the time of assassination.

Edited by John Dolva
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Brake lights! If it was just the sun reflecting off of them, you'd see the same effect with the motorcycle brake light(s).

I believe it's been established that Greer put on the brakes when he turned to look back at Kennedy. The various films confirm that the limousine slowed but did not stop. What confused so many I believe is that the motorcyclists to Kennedy's right slammed on their brakes and pulled over after the head shot.

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a flurry of shots... (hope no-one feels left out :tomatoes )

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  • 7 years later...

Good Day.... Included in a recent "Texas Monthly" articleis a very interesting recent time-lapsed photo that was captured from very close to the southwest corner of the Dal-Tex Building roof line, where I first stood in 1988....

(PHOTO)

http://www.texasmonthly.com/cms/dispImage.php?id=3882

Photograph by Darren Braun

....Think of yourself also located at that Dal-Tex west face roof line

corner, then, you simply walk approximately 35' to 40' northward,

(towards your right in that photo).... During a well thought about,

well-planned MILitary OPeration (aka, a "MILOP"), with the 2 primary

established goals being 1) kill JFK, and 2) frame a "lone-nut", the

operational planners would place a very high, solid value for duplicating

as close as possible the nearly exact same vertical, horizontal, and

lateral bullet trajectory(ies) as a trajectory(ies) triggered from a "lone-

nut" "snipers lair" to, 1) fool witnesses with a shot(s) source from

above, behind, and to JFK's right, and, 2) fool the (predictable, military

controlled) forensic autopsy that they also knew must follow the attack.

Additional visual considerations for duplicating a shot fired from behind JFK, above him, and to his right....

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/8651/dtroofcopiestsbd.gif

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/8351/daltexduplicatestsbd100.gif

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/2664/19631123daltexmackwhite.jpg

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/6969/bronson5recreationdalte.gif

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/2640/daltexcopiesanglessl.jpg

http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/4296/daltexroofduplicatesang.jpg

Best Regards in Research,

++Don

Donald Roberdeau

United States Navy

U.S.S. John F. Kennedy, CV-67, plank walker

Sooner, or later, The Truth emerges Clearly

For your key considerations....

Homepage: President KENNEDY "Men of Courage" speech, and Assassination Evidence, Witnesses, Suspects + Outstanding Researchers Discoveries and Considerations....http://droberdeau.bl...ination_09.html

The Dealey Plaza Map Detailing 11-22-63 Victims precise locations, Witnesses, Films & Photos, Evidence, Suspected bullet trajectories, Important information & Considerations, in One Convenient Resource.... http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/3966/dppluschartsupdated1111.gif

(2012 updated map)

Visual Report: "The First Bullet Impact Into President Kennedy: while JFK was Still Hidden Under the'magic-limbed-ricochet-tree' ".... http://img504.images...k1102308ms8.gif

Visual Report: Reality versus C.A.D. : the Real World, versus, Garbage-In, Garbage-Out....http://img248.images...ealityvscad.gif

Discovery: "Very Close JFK Assassination Witness ROSEMARY WILLIS

Zapruder Film Documented 2nd Headsnap: West, Ultrafast, and

Directly Towards the Grassy Knoll"....

http://educationforu...?showtopic=2394

T ogether

E veryone

A chieves

M ore

For the United States:

advisory7regional.gif

http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/

Edited by Don Roberdeau
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  • 3 weeks later...

Good Day.... Included in a recent "Texas Monthly" articleis a very interesting recent time-lapsed photo that was captured from very close to the southwest corner of the Dal-Tex Building roof line, where I first stood in 1988....

....Think of yourself also located at that Dal-Tex west face roof line corner, then, you simply walk approximately 35' to 40' northward, (towards your right in that photo).... During a well thought about, well-planned MILitary OPeration (aka, a "MILOP"), with the 2 primary established goals being 1) kill JFK, and 2) frame a "lone-nut", the operational planners would place a very high, solid value for duplicating as close as possible the nearly exact same vertical, horizontal, and lateral bullet trajectory(ies) as a trajectory(ies) triggered from a "lone-nut" "snipers lair" to, 1) fool witnesses with a shot(s) source from above, behind, and to JFK's right, and, 2) fool the (predictable, military controlled) forensic autopsy that they also knew must follow the attack. ....

There is often a dichotomy between the possible and the practical, the necessary, the defensible. This is one of those.

Yes, this appears to be an excellent means to "plant" a shooter at the TSBD 6th floor SE window when none was there, or to otherwise cast that locale as a diversion from the real shooters perched elsewhere. What's left afterward, however, is a simple question: "what would be the point?"

There is little if any doubt that there was a man or men on the TSBD's sixth floor, and little if any doubt that a rifle was present as well: too many credible people saw too much of them. If you want someone to think shots were fired from TSBD6SE, what better way than to simply fire a shot or shots from there? If that's the case, why would anyone simply shoot without intending to hit, and why would they be there if they weren't capable of hitting their target, such that there would be a need for "backup" on a building across the street (but perfectly in line with the TSBD perch)?

In only makes sense for this shooting scenario if nobody - or nobody of any consequence, capability or culpability - was actually firing from TSBD6, in which case why were they even there except to get caught? If it wasn't Oswald shooting, then they had to get out of the building unaccosted. That's a huge risk for someone who wasn't even doing anything, especially with an actual rifle left behind.

The rifle (or "pipe thing," as young Amos Euins described it) was seen from a press car on Houston Street after the sounds of gunfire erupted, so it's not as if the "mannequins" up top only made a spectacle of themselves before the shooting and were actually gone by the time it started: someone was still "playing the role" of shooter up to the last possible second, still standing a chance of being caught after supposedly not having shot a gun but realizing that someone else was shooting from another location nearby that would make it look as if they had.

Just as this scenario would be enacted to substantiate an autopsy that they expected would take place in a normal manner (that is, by Earl Rose in Dallas), they could not have also anticipated that the rifle that would be found on TSBD6 would not be tested to determine if it had been recently fired, so it needed to be recently fired ... so why would anyone be on TSBD6 if not to fire at least one round from a rifle? Can there be any safe assumption that they'd fire it, but never aim it?

Many other factors come into play, including the foreknowledge that a search would only include the TSBD and none of the surrounding buildings, leaving more than one shooter (or team) to escape another building undetected. Just as more shots from this direction are redundant, so is so much emphasis on only one direction obviating of shots from any other direction, including that of the GK or anywhere else west of the "sniper's nest" or south of the Dal-Tex/TSBD axis. All of this also presupposes a proper autopsy and much else that accompanied the ensuing investigation.

So, while it is possible for shots from this locale to have "duplicated" shots from another, it just doesn't "listen" or "play" very well. IMHO, of course. :dis

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Good Day.... Included in a recent "Texas Monthly" articleis a very interesting recent time-lapsed photo that was captured from very close to the southwest corner of the Dal-Tex Building roof line, where I first stood in 1988....

....Think of yourself also located at that Dal-Tex west face roof line corner, then, you simply walk approximately 35' to 40' northward, (towards your right in that photo).... During a well thought about, well-planned MILitary OPeration (aka, a "MILOP"), with the 2 primary established goals being 1) kill JFK, and 2) frame a "lone-nut", the operational planners would place a very high, solid value for duplicating as close as possible the nearly exact same vertical, horizontal, and lateral bullet trajectory(ies) as a trajectory(ies) triggered from a "lone-nut" "snipers lair" to, 1) fool witnesses with a shot(s) source from above, behind, and to JFK's right, and, 2) fool the (predictable, military controlled) forensic autopsy that they also knew must follow the attack. ....

There is often a dichotomy between the possible and the practical, the necessary, the defensible. This is one of those.

Yes, this appears to be an excellent means to "plant" a shooter at the TSBD 6th floor SE window when none was there, or to otherwise cast that locale as a diversion from the real shooters perched elsewhere. What's left afterward, however, is a simple question: "what would be the point?"

There is little if any doubt that there was a man or men on the TSBD's sixth floor, and little if any doubt that a rifle was present as well: too many credible people saw too much of them. If you want someone to think shots were fired from TSBD6SE, what better way than to simply fire a shot or shots from there? If that's the case, why would anyone simply shoot without intending to hit, and why would they be there if they weren't capable of hitting their target, such that there would be a need for "backup" on a building across the street (but perfectly in line with the TSBD perch)?

In only makes sense for this shooting scenario if nobody - or nobody of any consequence, capability or culpability - was actually firing from TSBD6, in which case why were they even there except to get caught? If it wasn't Oswald shooting, then they had to get out of the building unaccosted. That's a huge risk for someone who wasn't even doing anything, especially with an actual rifle left behind.

The rifle (or "pipe thing," as young Amos Euins described it) was seen from a press car on Houston Street after the sounds of gunfire erupted, so it's not as if the "mannequins" up top only made a spectacle of themselves before the shooting and were actually gone by the time it started: someone was still "playing the role" of shooter up to the last possible second, still standing a chance of being caught after supposedly not having shot a gun but realizing that someone else was shooting from another location nearby that would make it look as if they had.

Just as this scenario would be enacted to substantiate an autopsy that they expected would take place in a normal manner (that is, by Earl Rose in Dallas), they could not have also anticipated that the rifle that would be found on TSBD6 would not be tested to determine if it had been recently fired, so it needed to be recently fired ... so why would anyone be on TSBD6 if not to fire at least one round from a rifle? Can there be any safe assumption that they'd fire it, but never aim it?

Many other factors come into play, including the foreknowledge that a search would only include the TSBD and none of the surrounding buildings, leaving more than one shooter (or team) to escape another building undetected. Just as more shots from this direction are redundant, so is so much emphasis on only one direction obviating of shots from any other direction, including that of the GK or anywhere else west of the "sniper's nest" or south of the Dal-Tex/TSBD axis. All of this also presupposes a proper autopsy and much else that accompanied the ensuing investigation.

So, while it is possible for shots from this locale to have "duplicated" shots from another, it just doesn't "listen" or "play" very well. IMHO, of course. :dis

(emphasis added by T. Graves)

Hi Duke,

Back then how did one prove or disprove that a rifle had been very recently fired?

Thanks,

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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Back then how did one prove or disprove that a rifle had been very recently fired?

My bad; quite right, tho' I did not actually use the word "prove," merely "tested to determine." Although I've got no idea of the rules of procedure or standards of proof at the time in this regard, the point was that the gun could not be - or should not have been - left in newly-cleaned, unfired condition. Actually, we don't really know anything about that, do we?

The gun was said to be in "well-oiled" condition, suggesting - but of course not proving - that it had been recently cleaned, thus removing gunpowder residue, etc., from the barrel. What may have constituted "proof" 50 years ago could have been the presence of gunpowder in the barrel and/or the smell of cordite in/around the breech.

While the presence of particles may not have given any firm indication as to when it was fired, the absence of particles would indicate (prove?) that it wasn't fired; particles together with cordite smell might suggest (prove?) more recent firing.

Given what little we know of the supposed history of the rifle in Ruth Paine's garage, "well-oiled" does not seem to suggest a gun that had been lying unused in a blanket in a garage in a dry climate for a number of months. Thus, cleaning the rifle and not firing it makes little if any sense if it is to serve as incriminating evidence.

Since the only time we have any indication of it having been fired proximate to November 22 is on November 22, it "must" have been fired that day to serve its purpose, if indeed that was its purpose. There seems little purpose or sense in trying to call attention to the gun or window by making it and a man or men visible (such that it and he/they were seen) and then not firing it, which would further serve to call the necessary attention to it.

Did that cover all the bases? I don't know that even now there is any ability (beyond smell) to tell when a gun was fired, only that it had been fired since it was last cleaned; is there?

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