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To my knowledge, no one on this Forum is advocating short-circuiting your process. Certainly not me. More power to you, Barry.

But others may have a different concept than you do as to what the ultimate goal should be.

Or how to go about achieving it.

Edited by Michael Hogan
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To my knowledge, no one on this Forum is advocating short-circuiting your process. Certainly not me. More power to you, Barry.

But others may have a different concept than you do as to what the ultimate goal should be.

Or how to go about achieving it.

Fine with me. Personally, I am looking for much more definition and authority. Others are free to disagree. In the meantime, the lack of definition is, in my opinion, responsible for the endless and fruitless debate we've seen over the years, when the evidence tells a very, very clear story.

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I just wish you were offering more money. I can see Oreilly brushing off the challenge by saying that $25,000 is not worth his time. ( I am not saying you should offer more money, I am just predicting Oreilly's response)

If others want to pledge to add to the pool to increase the amount, they are certainly free to do so. That $25,000 has to be put in an escrow account, and unfortunately I'm not financially positioned to do more than that. But I agree with you, I'd like to see the amount higher as well, somewhere around $1 million. O'Reilly would not accept that one either, but it would be a much more dramatic copout.

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I think it is very interesting the idea of pledging. It could be one of the most important things we could do at this point.

How many people are in this Forum( The JFK part )?

How many people are reached via, Lancer, CTKA, and COPA?

I guess I am asking, how large is the community?

If there are enough people to make the contribution small enough I think this is doable.

Let the money stay in an interest bearing account and keep growing for the next high profile target.(if BIll rejects)

Edited by Mike Rago
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In fact, no needs to put any money up, Mike . . . a simple pledge would do. Since no one is going to accept, the money is safe. And if someone does happen to accept, the money will still be safe, because no one is going to get past the 3 Mini-challenges that are required to accept the main Challenge. The Mini-challenges are based on the chain of custody issue regarding the shells in the Depository, and simple deductive logic completely obliterates the opponent's case. I gave six weeks to gather arguments against the evidence which I outlined in my book, and got essentially ZERO response in argument. In other words, case closed. The reason for the mini-challenges, one of them, is precisely to allow a massive increase in the reward amount without increasing risk.

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For what its worth, I ordered the book today. I will review it immediately.

And I called my publisher to let him know I am willing to meet BIg Bill anywhere to debate him.

Jim, if you go on his show he will shout you down and not let you get the upper hand at all costs. Once he publishes, he will protect that book with his life. He will allow only fools and buffoons on the show that he can best by force of personality. Find some other forum if possible.

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To my knowledge, no one on this Forum is advocating short-circuiting your process. Certainly not me. More power to you, Barry.

But others may have a different concept than you do as to what the ultimate goal should be.

Or how to go about achieving it.

The problem is apathy. Most people do not have or make time to look into it. To many it's ancient history. This is what they counted on. And guess what? They were right. I too have tried to have the conversation with literally thousands over these many decades and it is mostly met with eyes rolling. I can hear their thoughts "oh one of THOSE conspiracy weirdos"...

Dawn

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MH: At this point in time, it might be useful to ask: What is the ultimate goal?

The ultimate goal to my way of thinking is not to just show that the JFK case was a conspiracy. That is pretty easy in this day and age.

In my opinion it is to use the declassified files to show:

1.) How it was done.

2.) What happened to America as a result.

And to do both of these in a convincing and provocative manner.

And this is possible today because of the declassification process. To just say that Oswald didn't do it, I mean Geez, with four million pages of documents, are you serious?

Today we can show that the Warren Commission was a put up job from the start, and we can show why it was so in more than one way. We can also show who Oswald was, and how and why he was set up. We can show that Kennedy was not going to make it through 1963, and the Chicago Plot proves this. We can show the autopsy was a sham, and we can do this with real testimony. We can show Mexico City was the capstone to the construction of the Second Plot--Chicago being the first--with Oswald as the fall guy. We can show that the Paines were accessories after the fact. And that Allen Dulles was aware of this.

And we can then demonstrate that Johnson reversed Kennedy's Vietnam policy with NSAM 288 three months after the assassination. And that he knew he was doing this as he did it. And that he lied all through 1964, and accused Goldwater of wanting to do what he was actually planning to do once elected. ANd that this policy led to what is perhaps the worst foreign policy disaster in American history.

So to settle for that tired old message, "Oswald didn't do it", and arbitration panels, in this day and age? C'mon. With all this at our disposal? If we can get this message out, see how fast the apathy disappears.

PS: Where's "big picture" Patrick Block when you need him?

Jim, I'm in total agreement with you re: what the evidence will show. But to kick off a serious investigation, this has to be pulled out of the realm of "its just those conspiracy nuts again," as Dawn mentioned earlier. The panels are a means to initiate the process you are talking about. Someone neutral (with lots of credibility) has to look at the evidence and say "this conspiracy isn't a theory, it's a fact."

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Barry:

IMO, once the public understands the new evidence about CE 399, plus the Connally bullet, then the conspiracy becomes a fact.

If we ever get to make a documentary for the MSM, that is the evidence I would lead off with.

The next question I would then pose is the obvious one: If that is the case, then how did the WC proceed as it did?

Because the fix was in from the beginning. And we can show how and why now.

I don't have any problem with your arbitration or your book as far as it goes.

But in my opinion it does not go far enough.

Yes, the shells show conspiracy, and that the WC (+DPD and FBI) was in on it from the very beginning. Not just CE 399, but also 343, 344, and 345. These four shells tell a very compelling story that no one can refute. I'm with you there!

My book is not yet completed, it is supposed to go to four, maybe five volumes, so at this stage, at three volumes, yes, it doesn't go far enough. But hopefully it will help us climb the ladder. Step One: prove conspiracy. Step Two: create a short list of suspects. Step Three: Convene investigatory panels. etc. And there are numerous other steps, which are probably way out of the box for many people on this forum, such as conceiving of alternative political approaches, since this one has been shown to be such a clear failure at resolving what is really the 2+2 = 4 of criminal procedure.

I'm pursuing the arbitration option. IMHO, it is going to add some necessary fuel to the fire. But others can pursue any other avenue they deem effective, its a free country, and ultimately, any initiatives will help to some degree.

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Barry:

IMO, once the public understands the new evidence about CE 399, plus the Connally bullet, then the conspiracy becomes a fact.

If you lead off with what you think is the new evidence for CE 399 you will lose. The other side will easily show your new "CE 399" theory is not sustainable.

Even according to your "new" theory, the bullet was in pristine condition. That is the problem. So what did the conspirators do? Did they substitute one pristine bullet for another pristine bullet?

You will lose that argument because CE 399 is the bullet that passed through the presidents neck and it hit Connally on his left side.

http://educationforu...180#entry258202

You can see that Connally and Kennedy react at the same time to the bullet which passed through Kennedy's neck. Connaly reacts with his hat flap and a quick turn to his left. Connally was hit by a second bullet as he turned back to his right. Something passed to Connallys left just as the bullet passed through the presidents neck.

Even using John Hunts analysis it will not fly. His entire conclusion rests on Where are Todd's initials? He admits the initials of at least three other handlers of the bullet are still on the bullet.

http://www.jfklancer...unt/phantom.htm

Todd and Frazier put their initials on the bullet at the same time. Frazier's initials can still be seen.

Here is Frazier describing the bullet. He says there is discoloration at the nose and a small dent or scraped area.

Looking at the photo we can see the discolored area and the small dent.

MELVIN EISENBERG -- "The bullet [CE399] is in the same condition as it was when you received it?"

ROBERT A. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir; except for the marking of my initials and the other examiners. There is a discoloration at the nose caused apparently by mounting this bullet in some material which stained it, which was not present when received, and one more thing on the nose is a small dent or scraped area. At this area the spectographic examiner removed a small quantity of metal for analysis."

image003.jpg

http://educationforu...210#entry241776

***

CE 399 is in exactly the condition one would expect of a bullet that passed through president Kennedy and hit no bony structures and pierced no arteries or vital organs. That bullet did not hit any bony structures because this is not the bullet which struck Connally. It is the bullet which passed through the presidents neck and then to Connally's left. A second bullet, fired almost simultaneously, struck Connally as he turned back to his right.

Edited by Mike Rago
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Guest Robert Morrow

Debate, schmebate. Debates just convey the illusion that there is some sort of legitimate issue at controversy. More importantly, there is no arbitrator to make a decision as to which side of the "debate" actually prevailed from the standpoint of presenting evidence to support their position, unlike what you would have in a real trial. And that is what we need.

That whole thing smells like a circus, and that is all you are ever going to get out of O'Reilly.

You can't always get what you need. (Apologies to Jagger and Richards)

You get what you need--yeah, oh baby

I saw her today at the reception

In her glass was a bleeding man

She was practiced at the art of deception

Well I could tell by her blood-stained hands

You can't always get what you want (chorus)

But if you try sometimes you just might find

You just might find

You get what you need

You can't always get what you want (chorus)

But if you try sometimes you just might find

You just might find

You get what you need

________________________________________________

BK wants a grand jury, Nathaniel wants more reviews and links, Barry wants a trial, Morley and Judge want files to be released.

Many would be surprised if any of the above occurred.

At this point in time, it might be useful to ask: What is the ultimate goal?

And Vincent Salandria would laugh at all that and tell you an Italian peasant with a feeble mind could figure out that it is OBVIOUS that U.S. military intelligence murdered John Kennedy for Cold War reasons (rage over Cuba policy probably #1, anti-detente with the USSR in general #2). And I would add that it is equally OBVIOUS that Lyndon Johnson & his Texas oil executives were in the center, stirring the pot, making it all happen.

Jim DiEugenio is another one who likes to talk about releasing govt documents and how valuable the ARRB was. Ok this is fine but peasants with feeble minds solved the JFK assassination 49 years ago.

Edited by Robert Morrow
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You are the one who does not understand it. I suppose you have already written this in your new book so you have to stick with it, but I am sorry you are wrong about CE 399.

You are not an objective researcher. You have already demonstrated this is several areas, including this area. You have a predisposition to bias.

People have let the rest of you alone for 50 years and we still have no solution. I am very sure that if we give you another 50 years we will still have no solution. The time has come to stop that nonsense.

You are barking up the wrong tree.

Edited by Mike Rago
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You are the one who does not understand it. I suppose you have already written this in your new book so you have to stick with it, but I am sorry you are wrong about CE 399.

You are not an objective researcher. You have already demonstrated this is several areas, including this area. You have a predisposition to bias.

People have let the rest of you alone for 50 years and we still have no solution. I am very sure that if we give you another 50 years we will still have no solution. The time has come to stop that nonsense.

You are barking up the wrong tree.

This is exactly why we need arbitration.

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Guest Robert Morrow

I am now coming to the conclusion that CIA-military rage over Cuba policy (and LBJ's personal reasons) played a far, far greater role in the JFK assassination than Vietnam.

Mike Rago called me up and told me he thought Israel and the Mossad were behind the JFK assassination - which is absurd.

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