Additional Bullets in and around Dealey Plaza

[Adam Wilkinson]

Barbee Specimen: Found embedded in the roof of a building located at 1615 Stemmons Freeway by William Barbee in 1966. The building, about 1/4 a mile away from the TSBD was in the line of fire from the sixth floor window. It was handed over to the FBI where they determined the bullet to be a .30 calibre full metal jacketed military bullet.

This bullet is consistent with that which could be shot from the CIA's silenced M-1 .30 calibre carbine.

Haythorne Specimen: Found in 1967 on top of the Massey building by Rich Haythorne, who was working on the roof of the building. The Massey building was located about 8 blocks away from the TSBD in the 1200 block of Elm Street. The bullet was delivered to the HSCA. The HSCA utilized the services of the Washington, D.C police department, where it was determined that the bullet was a jacketed, soft point .30 calibre bullet weighing 149 grains and was consistent with the .30 calibre ammo produced by Remington-Peters. The 6 groove, right hand twist rifling marks on the bullet indicated that the bullet was not shot from Oswald’s Mannlicher-Carcano.

Lester Specimen: A bullet fragment found in Dealey Plaza by Richard Lester in 1974. Its precise location was reported to be 500 yards from the TSBD and 61 paces east of the triple overpass abutment. It was handed over to the FBI, the FBI concluded that the fragment, which consisted of the base portion of a bullet and weighed 52.7 grains, was consistent with the diameter of a 6.5mm bullet. It was also determined that the fragment came from a metal jacketed soft point or hollow point sporting bullet. The rifling characteristics did not match those of a Mannlicher-Carcano.

Dal-Tex Specimen: A rusted shell casing was found on the roof top of the Dal-Tex building in 1977 by an air-conditioning repair man. Conclusive evidence of a second gunman positioned on the building?

People have argued that specimens 1,2 and 3 could have been shot from locations other that Dealey Plaza by a 'careless hunter' however this specimens case is described as "having crimped edges along the neck suggesting that either the shell had been hand loaded or had been used in conjunction with a sabot, by means of which a smaller calibre slug can be fired from a higher calibre weapon"

This shell casing means that the rifle was shot where the shell was expended.

What are members views on these specimens? Are they further evidence of more than one shooter?

[Lynne Foster]

Hoover does not mention it in this report, so they don't exist.

[Adam Wilkinson]

Comments from anybody but Lynne are appreciated,

Adam.

[John Dolva]

Adam, I'm wondering about the third one and the report of a rusted casing found on top of the records building?

[Gerry Hemming]

Adam, I'm wondering about the third one and the report of a rusted casing found on top of the records building?

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I don't recall ever having seen "rusted" BRASS casings. The last batch of "rusted" casings I encountered were found in-and-around the abandoned lighthouse on Elbow Cay, The Bahamas.

We [H. K. Davis, Hargraves, attorney "Chuck" Ashman, and two black MPs (Bahamas Members of Parliament), et al.] boated there in search of evidence which might have been left behind by the Cuban DSE/LCB & Sov/Spetsnaz commandos.

Hargraves had accompanied a Cuban exile team on a raid into Cuba, where they captured two "Sigma" patrol boats [February 1963]; and upon Roy's return with extra fuel [from Marathon] for all boats, he found evidence of a firefight -- and later got news of the "capture inside Cuba".

The "Steel" Soviet shell casings were later presented to the Bahamian Parliament. Later that week, Ashman flew to London and presented same to both "The Home Office" and to members of Parliament.

One of those captured by the LCB/Spetsnaz commandos, had been a skipper of a Bay of Pigs cargo ship. Another was one Eleno Oviedo Alvarez, who was arrested and jailed with us during December 1962. Eleno is pictured (and named) standing with us in front of the Monroe County Jail [key West] after the media demanded a "photo op".

We saved the teams from the firing squad, but they spent years in Fidel's "Gulags".

[Hargraves photo -- with the M-2 Carbine, was taken alongside the Elbow Cay lighthouse. James has a copy, as does "Spartacus".]

Chairs,

GPH

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[Tim Carroll]

Barbee Specimen: Found embedded in the roof of a building located at 1615 Stemmons Freeway by William Barbee in 1966.... Haythorne Specimen: Found in 1967 on top of the Massey building by Rich Haythorne, who was working on the roof of the building.... Lester Specimen: A bullet fragment found in Dealey Plaza by Richard Lester in 1974.... Dal-Tex Specimen: A rusted shell casing was found on the roof top of the Dal-Tex building in 1977 by an air-conditioning repair man.... What are members views on these specimens? Are they further evidence of more than one shooter?

When I was visiting Dealey Plaza, some of the guys that give tours and sell brochures were talking about how stuff is constantly being planted and then found there.

T.C.

[Adam Wilkinson]

Adam, I'm wondering about the third one and the report of a rusted casing found on top of the records building?

I find this specimen very interesting, however I do not have much info on it. All I know (if it does at all exist) is that it was found in 1977, was rusted and had been there for quiet some time and had crimped edges along the neck. I would be very interested if any other members have heard of this or have any additional information. My source is Murder in Dealey Plaza by James H. Fetzer.

Barbee Specimen: Found embedded in the roof of a building located at 1615 Stemmons Freeway by William Barbee in 1966.... Haythorne Specimen: Found in 1967 on top of the Massey building by Rich Haythorne, who was working on the roof of the building.... Lester Specimen: A bullet fragment found in Dealey Plaza by Richard Lester in 1974.... Dal-Tex Specimen: A rusted shell casing was found on the roof top of the Dal-Tex building in 1977 by an air-conditioning repair man.... What are members views on these specimens? Are they further evidence of more than one shooter?

When I was visiting Dealey Plaza, some of the guys that give tours and sell brochures were talking about how stuff is constantly being planted and then found there.

T.C.

I think that is highly likely in a lot of cases, people planting 'evidence' in an attempt of making a name of themselves.

[John Dolva]

I don't recall ever having seen "rusted" BRASS casings. The last batch of "rusted" casings I encountered were found in-and-around the abandoned lighthouse on Elbow Cay, The Bahamas.

Yup, you're right Gerry. Rust implies iron. Perhaps weathered or oxidised is better here.

[James Richards]

Adam,

Don't forget about the Rademacher casing found near the fence (see below). This one was then allegedly connected to James Files. I don't want to open that can of worms but is worthy of mention none-the-less.

I also hold the view that shell casings may well have been planted. Ironically, I also think that any bullets fired at the president on the day had their casing's retrieved. All except the planted evidence to implicate LHO of course.

James

[Tim Carroll]

Don't forget about the Rademacher casing found near the fence (see below). This one was then allegedly connected to James Files. I don't want to open that can of worms but is worthy of mention none-the-less. I also hold the view that shell casings may well have been planted. Ironically, I also think that any bullets fired at the president on the day had their casing's retrieved. All except the planted evidence to implicate LHO of course.

Edited December 22, 2005 by Tim Carroll

[Lynne Foster]

Czar Hoover decided that there were 3 shots, just 3 shots, none hit the curb or the sidewalk, and Lee Harvey Oswald fired each and every one of them and he determined ALL that on November 29, 1963.

Now if you want to introduce the truth into evidence, you have to acknowledge the fact that Hoover framed Oswald.

Is that the point you are trying to make here?

[Adam Wilkinson]

Thanks for the information John, Gerry, Tim and James (P.S Loving this ignore function)