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Dan Herrick

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    Watergate.<br />JFK Assassination.

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  1. O-tay, Duke it is. As you note, it hardly seems likely that either the M-C, or the ammo, went to or came from New Orleans. Good point about the "wittingess" of the "accomplice, if there was one. Some unwitting person might have been giving LHO ammo, and/or the gun shop owners might have misremembered, and/or might actually have had a different employee help LHO, or....who knows? We could of course play the "this or that might have happened" game for a long time. Indeed - this is one of the points I was trying to find out about when I started this thread. Maybe I should stop posting so late at night myself You're right that it is unlikely LHO had effects that were never examined or that someone sanitized his effects (unless Marina....well, never mind ) (and, I must say, there are a lot of other unlikely theories about the assassination which have been advanced since 22 Nov 1963...but I digress). Where you've lost me a bit is How can we leave that aside? That's part of the whole question we're looking into in this thread. Isn't it? I guess from your comments that we can leave that aside because 1 there's no good evidence of Oswald practicing anywhere with the M-C 2 there's no good evidence he ever had the rifle at Paine's or on Beckley 3 there's no good evidence he brought the M-C to TSBD on 11/22/63 or any other time. So you're saying Oswald never had an M-C rifle on the 6th floor of TSBD to begin with, so the whole "how did Oswald get bullets" question is totally irrelevant?
  2. Thank you all for your responses - great reading. So, if I may summarize (though the length of the post may not make it a summary ), and please correct where I am wrong: 1. Yes, it is true that no extra ammunition from the Mannlicher-Carcano was found in any of Oswald's effects. There were Two Empty Boxes Marked "6.5 Italian Ammunition", which became FBI Exhibit Number D79 (per http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...sPageId=374706), but no one has ever seen these boxes. They may have come from the Paine's house or from a gravel pit in Irving TX. It does not appear to me that we can learn anything conclusive from these boxes. Maybe Billy Bob Texan threw them in a gravel pit in Irving, maybe Lee Oswald bought the boxes, maybe LHO was given the boxes, maybe they are just random cardboard boxes that Billy Bob Texan wrote on to distinguish them from all the other ammo boxes stored near his gun collection. (BTW I am not trying to be perjorative when I use the phrase "Billy Bob Texan", any more than I would be if I said "Skyler Boston Brahmin" - I am just putting a "name" on the people in question and trying to make a little bit of a funny. Heh, heh, heh.) Boxes or no boxes, no extra AMMO was ever found in LHO's effects. 2. Yes, it is odd not to find any. 3. What can we make of this, that is, how could this oddity be explained? Assume for the sake of this argument that LHO was on the 6th floor of TSBD and had his M-C there and fired it (I know, none of these is necessarily the case, but go with me for a sec here). Then it's possible LHO was down to his last four bullets at the time - meaning that he had gotten at least one box of the ammo somewhere, used the first 16 bullets of the box practicing (somewhere), and had 4 left in the M-C when he went to kill JFK. I gotta say, that sounds unlikely - why would you be relying on only the 4 left, beacuase what if you missed? (Indeed, if he was really there and he saw his first shot miss and hit the curb, he must have thought "uh-oh.") Nonetheless, it's POSSIBLE. But for it to be possible, LHO had to get his bullets from someplace. Oswald might have purchased the ammo, but apparently he did not do so at either of the two shops in the greater Dallas area that sold the WCC 6.5 bullets. As Mr Lane notes, it appears that the FBI looked around pretty darn hard to find every place in the Dallas area LHO could have purchased same, and all the leads came back with a big old zero for LHO having purchased them himself. One would assume that if the FBI had found a place near Dallas that Oswald even might have purchased his bullets, it would be in the WC report. Seems like Oswald didn't buy bullets for the M-C in the Dallas area; yet (for the sake of this argument) he certainly had some on Nov 22 1963. So...how did he get them? Possibilities appear to be: -He bought the bullets in New Orleans while he lived there starting in April 1963. (Possible, I suppose...as Mr Carroll asked, do we know if FBI investigated this possibility? Also, do we know if LHO took the M-C (delivered to Texas in March) with him to NO in April?) -He bought the bullets in Mexico City while he was there. (Seems pretty unlikely.) -Someone else gave him the bullets in Dallas (finally, something that seems likely!). -He found his ammo hanging around. (I don't think so.) -He ordered his ammo through the mail, just as he did with the guns. (As Mr Lane notes, Was this possible at the time? Was it ever investigated?) But, there's no record of this anywhere, and one assumes if there had been the FBI would have put it in the WC Report. It is clear to me that the most likely scenario is that someone else gave Oswald his bullets, said "someone else" having either purchased them from one of the locations in Dallas, or gotten them in some other fashion. But...there is still the problem of only having the 4 bullets. If no other M-C ammo was ever found in his personal effects, that implies to me that either a, Oswald had some personal effects that were never examined, or b, someone tampered with his personal effects before they were examined by law enforcement. This is why I personally find the question of the Mannlicher-Carcano ammunition to be so critical. From this evidence ALONE it appears that Oswald had at least one accomplice who provided him with bullets, and MOST LIKELY at least one other one who either concealed or removed evidence. Doesn't it? So then the question becomes, who might have provided Oswald with ammo and why, and who might have concealed or sanitized his personal effects and why? (EDIT: And as for the ammo in the gun used on Tippit, that's a whole nother story of oddities that I have more questions about...for a different thread.)
  3. "Not for nothing" as we sometimes say in Boston....who do you suggest were Nixon's "masters"?
  4. "Watergate-related events within the continental U.S. that took place in the May through June, 1975 period and involved elements of LCN" Uh, you're going to have to be less circumspect about what you mean by "LCN". Rep. Lucien Nedzi (D-MI) is the only person I can think of you may be referring to. A quick wiki of LCN indicates that you may be referring to a Library of Congress Number or La Cosa Nostra. Thus, maybe you are referring to Nixon and his long legal battle to retain his tapes; or maybe you are trying to get at something about organized crime, thence to Bebe Rebozo, or the FBI, or Robert Maheu and thence Howard Hughes. Without some clarification I'm not sure you'll find out what you want to know.
  5. I'd be interested to hear from any forum members who have been to the scene of the Break-in(s) in DC. As has been expressed in many books and many postings on this forum there are a lot of "odd" things that are not well explained regarding the events of 26 May 1972 through 17 June 1972. As these events occurred at the Watergate Office Building, The Watergate Hotel, and the Howard Johnson's across the street, I'm curious if any forum members have been there. Is the layout still the same as it was 36 years ago? Thanks.
  6. Hello all, Forum newbie here - know "a lot" about Watergate and "a little" about the JFK assassination but excited to be here and learn more about both. I recall reading, probably in Anthony Summers' Conspiracy, that in all of the searches of all of Oswald's effects, no law enforcement agency ever found any extra/spare ammunition for either the Mannlicher-Carcano or the gun LHO had on him at the time of his arrest. I am not knowledgable about guns...but this seemed like it would be exceedingly unusual when I read it. So my questions: 1. Is it true that no extra ammo was found in any of Oswald's effects? 2. If so, would it be unusual to not find any? 3. If so, what are we to make of the fact that none was found? Thanks, Dan
  7. I would like to know the opinions of members on this question: When do you think Richard Nixon's resignation from the Presidency became inevitable? Why do you choose the time you choose? Rather than just toss the questions out, I'll give my answer. I thought for a long time that it was the PR debacle of the Saturday Night Massacre that turned the corner and made it impossible for Nixon, in the end, to stay in office. But upon further reflection my answer is Butterfield's disclosure of the taping system, because once that came out publicly the tapes and their contents became a legal issue that Nixon couldn't avoid (and Buzhardt and Garment and Wright and St Clair couldn't solve). Once the existence of the tapes was public knoweldge, it was too late to destroy the tapes and only a matter of time before their contents became known. In particular of course was the "use the CIA to obfuscate the FBI" tape which was the final nail in the coffin in August 1974. Indeed, it is amazing to me that Butterfield's testimony was in July 1973 and Nixon lasted 13 more months. Your thoughts? Thanks, Dan
  8. I don't know enough detail re: CIA to make any comments on OS vs Angleton, or Bluebird/Artichoke/MkUltra. I have no reason to doubt Hougan's description of McCord's CIA role. We are all sharing interesting information here, but I'm still wondering if there is a reference Out There Anywhere linkning McCord to The Mullen Company (my apologies for referring to it as "Mullen Corp" in previous postings), and if anyone knows what Mullen did for the Hughes organization. Thanks, Dan
  9. Several sources (Emery-"Watergate" p 112, Liddy-"Will" p 191, Hougan-"Secret Agenda" pp 17-26, etc) indicate that McCord certainly had worked for the CIA as an employee for over 20 years, retiring in 1970. Or should I say "retiring." A number of sources also indicate that the CIA had a practice of having people "retire" but continue on in service to the CIA, in either an official or unofficial capacity. Howard Hunt "retired" 3 times from the CIA, the last time in 1970. There is not necessarily any reason to believe that Hunt's 1970 "retirement" was any more real than his other two...nor is there necessarily any reason to believe McCord's 1970 "retirement" was real either. So McCord and Hunt both had worked in the past for CIA. One relevant question for Watergate is, Were they still working for CIA - either as employees or as contract agents - in 1971-72 in the lead-up to the Watergate break-in(s)? It is established that Hunt worked for Mullen Corp in this time period, and that Mullen Corp was a CIA front, and that Hunt got CIA disguises for himself and Liddy. It seems reasonable to me that Hunt was still affiliated with the CIA in 1971-72. I asked about McCord's connection to Mullen Corp because I feel that if that could be proven, it would go a long way towards indicating that McCord was also still affiliated with the CIA in 1971-72. I asked about Liddy because though some speculate about him being in the CIA, I have a hard time seeing him there and after reading Will, one generally feels like if he had worked there, he would have said so. The interest here is: Did McCord and Hunt know each other a long time before Liddy introduced them, and were both working for the CIA right under Liddy's nose without dearest G Gordon being aware of it? I was curious about this whole area before I even read Secret Agenda, which I recently got out of the library again to re-read. I find it possible that Liddy's account in Will is essentially what he really thought was happening, but that McCord and Hunt totally fooled him and used the Cubans for various other missions which Liddy paid for without even realizing it. Though I have much more work to do in this area, and I know that I am not alone in this suspicion, I think the Howard Hughes connections to all of this business are important. Oddly I have never seen this particular connection written anywhere, but it is established that by this point of his life Hughes was a recluse and was being cared for by male Mormon nurses. At about this time the Washington representative of the Hughes organization changed from being Larry O'Brien, DNC Chair, to the aforementioned Mullen Corp, CIA front and employer of Howard Hunt, which was run by Robert Bennett - who is a Mormon himself. (Indeed, he later became - and is currently - US Senator from Utah and a highly respected elder in the Mormon church.) So now we have Hughes (whose campaign contributions to Nixon would cause trouble later and whose loan to Nixon's brother had caused problems already) represented in DC by the company (Mullen) who employed a guy (Hunt) who would become a key figure in a plot to bug the former Hughes representative (O'Brien). Odd. I would be interested in hearing from anyone who knows what exactly the Mullen Corp did for the Hughes organization. Also, if someone can recommend a good biography of Hughes or his longtime associate Maheu please let me know. (Preferably not the Clifford Irving version. Ha, ha.) Cheers Dan
  10. Hello all, I've been reading the forums for a while and would like to thank John Simkin for signing me up. For my first post, I would like to hear from people who have thoughts about, or even better solid evidence, that 1. G Gordon Liddy worked for the CIA at some point prior to June 17, 1972 2. James McCord worked for the Mullen Corporation at some point prior to June 17, 1972. I have seen mention made various places of Liddy's CIA connection and although it certainly could be logical, that does not make it a fact. He surely interacted with the CIA, but whether he was working directly for them is tough to say. I find it most curious that in the index of his autobiography "Will", CIA is referenced as being on pages 141-149 but is only mentioned on 147 (twice), 148 (once), and 149 (once). The time frame covered is Liddy's exit from Treasury and entrance to the White House staff - what eventually became the Plumbers. Is this a typo or is Liddy coyly trying to tell us something? I have not seen mention of McCord having a direct connection to the Mullen Corp. However, McCord had worked for the CIA for years, and Mullen was a CIA front. Liddy seems to claim that it was Liddy who recruited McCord into the Plumbers "web" and introduced him to Hunt...but Hunt had also worked for the CIA for a long time and then went to work at Mullen after he "retired." What I'm wondering (and I know I'm not alone) is if Hunt and McCord knew each other for much longer than Liddy states in "Will" The main reason I am interested is because of a lot of thinking I've been doing about McCord, Hunt, Liddy, and the period from 26 May 1972 until 17 June 1972. Your help would be appreciated. Thanks! Dan
  11. I am a Massachusetts native who attended suburban Boston public schools K-12, then earned a BA in Chemistry from Lawrence University in Appleton, Wisconsin. I have worked in the chemical industry (polymers/adhesives/sealants) for the past 10 years in the Boston area and have been interested in Nixon, and Watergate in particular, ever since my father brought a battered copy of All The President's Men home from the Library's used book sale when I was about 12 years old. Folks I've known, in college and since, have seen the many Nixon and/or Watergate books I own and not been quite sure what to think. When I came across the forum a few years back I realized that this was a place I felt comfortable. I've read a good bit about the JFK assassination as well. The topics discussed here are a hobby for me, but one that can get obsessive if I'm not careful. After all, I do have other interests and things to do - such as working, handbell ringing, baseball, working out, genealogy, travel, friends, etc. As a scientist, I try to bring an open mind to discussions and to focus on supportable / documentable evidence. Where evidence conflicts is where our judgement on the quality of evidence, as well as on the people involved and their motivations, becomes critical. I have a theory that people who are interested in history (which everyone should be, even if everyone isn't) tend to be most interested in the time period just before they were born. I think this is because interested people realize that history is generally orderly and accumulative, and that the period just before our birth is one that we individually don't remember but that provides a framework for understanding many things in the world we are in right now. Such it is that I (as a 'bicentennial baby,' born in 1976) am interested in the Nixon era. Unfortunately, not only do many people seem to unquestioningly believe everything they are taught in school about history, but also, by the time a US History course gets around to post-1950 America, it is near the end of the academic period so the learning is very compressed and both teachers and students are tired. So, many people assume that Watergate or the JFK assassination are well understood (which of course they aren't). All of this translates into a population that accepts many modern-day assertions made by government or the media as true without attempting to dig deeper. I look forward to posting on the forum and continuing to learn more about Watergate and the JFK Assassination, and how both still resonate and are painfully relevant to understanding 2008 America.
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