Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Sean Murphy]

On December 6th 1963 Time Magazine carried a story titled 'The Man Who Killed Kennedy'.

It contained the following account of the Oswald-Reid encounter:

Carrying his Coke, Oswald ambled into a nearby office. A switchboard operator said, "Wasn't that terrible—the President being shot?" Oswald mumbled something unintelligible, went out of the office, walked down the steps and slipped through the crowd outside.

**

French researcher Leo Sauvage was puzzled by the reference to a "switchboard operator" and, in February 64, asked Roy Truly about it:

Yes, he confirmed, that was the story told to the FBI when—on the following week—they finally began questioning everyone who works in the School Depository. But, he added, it wasn’t the switchboard operator who spoke to Oswald. It was another woman working in the same office, and yes, that office is “right next to the lunchroom.” Did either of the two women notice the noise Oswald must have made in the corridor rushing in from the sixth floor? Mr. Truly didn’t know.

How very odd.

One would expect Truly to simply correct the idea that Mrs Reid was a switchboard operator and leave it at that.

But the spectre of Geneva Hine looms too large.

Technically speaking, she wasn't a switchboard operator (there was no switchboard proper in the second-floor office).

She did however volunteer to keep an eye on incoming phone calls while her colleagues went outside to watch the motorcade.

And, given the fact that she and she alone was in the office area around the time of the motorcade, it is simply not credible that the Time Magazine reporter in referring to a switchboard operator meeting Oswald there had just made a lucky mistake.

Clearly the reporter had gotten wind of the fact that someone was in the office at the time looking after the phones and that this person had had an interaction with Oswald.

And the reporter, hearing also about a conversation between a female employee and Oswald in that same office area just after the shooting, assumed that said female employee must have been the switchboard operator.

So Truly is in a real bind when asked about the Time reference to a switchboard operator.

He is having to admit that Jeraldean Reid was not the only woman in the office area immediately after the assassination.

Yet the Reid story--which she was given on 11/23--requires the office to be empty at the time of the encounter.

**

On September 17th 2011 Robert Groden made the following remarks in a radio interview with Len Osanic:



I actually found a woman some years ago. She was terrified. She did not want to come forward. And she finally agreed to give an interview, and I did interview her. When the shots actually went off, she was talking to Lee Oswald on the second floor. […] We always assumed that Lee had the change, that he had had the change for the machine. He didn’t. He went into the office across from the snack room with a dollar bill and asked for change. He said, “No pennies, please.” And, as the change was being counted out into his hand, the shots went off. And they looked at each other, this woman and Lee, and [asked], “What was that?” Backfires, firecrack[ers], who knew? He got the rest of the change, walked back across the hall, bought the Coke and then just a little over a minute later there was a gun in his ribs held by Officer Baker. Lee had an airtight alibi. He could not possibly have done this. She told this story to the Warren Commission. They told her to keep her mouth shut. And she did. She told very few people. Very few people. I was one of the few that she did. So I got to speak to her because I had a friend who knew a friend of hers. I had to promise her I would never reveal any of this until after she was gone. And now she is. The whole story, including her name, will be in the next book.



Groden's book has not yet been published, and it is a cause of real regret that he has chosen to hold back these potentially case-breaking details for so long.

The woman he spoke with must surely be Geneva Hine (who died at the age of 100 just over a decade ago).

**

What are we to make of Groden's claim?

My belief is that Lee Oswald is Prayer Man and that he had already descended from his coke-purchasing visit to the second-floor lunchroom in time to catch the motorcade from the front steps.

This is the chronology of events implied in the crucial first interrogation report written jointly by FBI Special Agents Bookhout and Hosty:

-Broke off work and went down for lunch in domino room

-Went up to second-floor lunchroom to purchase a Coca Cola

-Back down to first floor, which is where he was at the time of the assassination.

If (as I believe) Oswald really did claim to have been on the first floor at the time of the shooting, then the story as relayed by Groden does not make sense.

Hearing the loud bangs in the second-floor office, he may conceivably have mistaken them at the time for motorcycle backfires or firecrackers, but there is no way he would have failed to grasp their true meaning by the time of his arrest.

And yet he appears to be placing himself on the first, not second, floor "when President Kennedy passed this building".

**

This is not to say that Groden's witness story is without significance.

It may in fact be of huge importance.

Here--pending disclosure of the full details from Groden--is what I believe may have happened.

1. Oswald got change for the coke machine from Hine a very few minutes before the shooting.

2. Oswald and Hine did hear bangs as she was giving him his change, but they were not shots--they were motorcycle backfires, the same motorcycle backfires which Buell Wesley Frazier told Gary Mack he heard in Dealey Plaza while everyone was awaiting the motorcade.

3. Oswald then went to the second-floor lunchroom and got his coke.

4. Oswald after this went down to the first floor and caught the motorcade. (IMO he, Prayer Man, is holding the coke in his immobile left hand.)

I hesitate to say this, but my suspicion is that Groden has (for understandable reasons) slightly sexed up Hine's account by unequivocally identifying the bangs she said she and Oswald heard as the shots that were fired at Kennedy.

He is also joining the dots between Hine's story and the fictitious lunchroom story in a way not strictly sanctioned by Hine's account.

**

If Hine was indeed the woman Groden spoke with, and if her story was basically factual, then we have another explanation for Reid's being drafted in on the Saturday as a supporting witness for Truly's damage-limitation lunchroom story:

Oswald is still alive.

He is expected to go to trial.

He is going to be talking about an interaction with a female employee in the second-floor office area just before the assassination.

Hine must be told to shut up about giving Oswald change for the coke machine, for her story would blow the lid on the lie that his visit to the lunchroom was post-assassination.

And in order that Oswald's talk at trial about speaking with a female employee in the office area be explained away, Reid must be inveigled into coming forward with a phoney post-assassination Oswald-in-office-area story.

**

If the above outline of events is correct, then why was Hine not simply pressurised into testifying to the WC that she had witnessed the Reid-Oswald encounter?

Because she had already been pressurised into going on the record several times to the effect that she had not seen Lee Oswald at all on the day of the assassination.

The result of all this?

The relationship between Hine's WC testimony and that of Reid is horribly messy and contradictory.

The best Reid can do--can be made to do--is leave open the impression that she may have left the office area shortly after the Oswald encounter.

Where might she have gone to?

Ironically enough, there is only one possible place available if she is to avoid running into Hine in the corridor:

the second-floor lunchroom...

Edited October 11, 2013 by Sean Murphy

[Thomas Graves]

On December 6th 1963 Time Magazine carried a story titled 'The Man Who Killed Kennedy'.

It contained the following account of the Oswald-Reid encounter:

Carrying his Coke, Oswald ambled into a nearby office. A switchboard operator said, "Wasn't that terrible—the President being shot?" Oswald mumbled something unintelligible, went out of the office, walked down the steps and slipped through the crowd outside.

**

French researcher Leo Sauvage was puzzled by the reference to a "switchboard operator" and, in February 64, asked Roy Truly about it:

Yes, he confirmed, that was the story told to the FBI when—on the following week—they finally began questioning everyone who works in the School Depository. But, he added, it wasn’t the switchboard operator who spoke to Oswald. It was another woman working in the same office, and yes, that office is “right next to the lunchroom.” Did either of the two women notice the noise Oswald must have made in the corridor rushing in from the sixth floor? Mr. Truly didn’t know.

How very odd.

One would expect Truly to simply correct the idea that Mrs Reid was a switchboard operator and leave it at that.

But the spectre of Geneva Hine looms too large.

Technically speaking, she wasn't a switchboard operator (there was no switchboard proper in the second-floor office).

She did however volunteer to keep an eye on incoming phone calls while her colleagues went outside to watch the motorcade.

And, given the fact that she and she alone was in the office area around the time of the motorcade, it is simply not credible that the Time Magazine reporter in referring to a switchboard operator meeting Oswald there had just made a lucky mistake.

Clearly the reporter had gotten wind of the fact that someone was in the office at the time looking after the phones and that this person had had an interaction with Oswald.

And the reporter, hearing also about a conversation between a female employee and Oswald in that same office area just after the shooting, assumed that said female employee must have been the switchboard operator.

So Truly is in a real bind when asked about the Time reference to a switchboard operator.

He is having to admit that Jeraldean Reid was not the only woman in the office area immediately after the assassination.

Yet the Reid story--which she was given on 11/23--requires the office to be empty at the time of the encounter.

**

On September 17th 2011 Robert Groden made the following remarks in a radio interview with Len Osanic:

I actually found a woman some years ago. She was terrified. She did not want to come forward. And she finally agreed to give an interview, and I did interview her. When the shots actually went off, she was talking to Lee Oswald on the second floor. […] We always assumed that Lee had the change, that he had had the change for the machine. He didn’t. He went into the office across from the snack room with a dollar bill and asked for change. He said, “No pennies, please.” And, as the change was being counted out into his hand, the shots went off. And they looked at each other, this woman and Lee, and [asked], “What was that?” Backfires, firecrack[ers], who knew? He got the rest of the change, walked back across the hall, bought the Coke and then just a little over a minute later there was a gun in his ribs held by Officer Baker. Lee had an airtight alibi. He could not possibly have done this. She told this story to the Warren Commission. They told her to keep her mouth shut. And she did. She told very few people. Very few people. I was one of the few that she did. So I got to speak to her because I had a friend who knew a friend of hers. I had to promise her I would never reveal any of this until after she was gone. And now she is. The whole story, including her name, will be in the next book.

Groden's book has not yet been published, and it is a cause of real regret that he has chosen to hold back these potentially case-breaking details for so long.

The woman he spoke with must surely be Geneva Hine (who died at the age of 100 just over a decade ago).

**

What are we to make of Groden's claim?

My belief is that Lee Oswald is Prayer Man and that he had already descended from his coke-purchasing visit to the second-floor lunchroom in time to catch the motorcade from the front steps.

This is the chronology of events implied in the crucial first interrogation report written jointly by FBI Special Agents Bookhout and Hosty:

-Broke off work and went down for lunch in domino room

-Went up to second-floor lunchroom to purchase a Coca Cola

-Back down to first floor, which is where he was at the time of the assassination.

If (as I believe) Oswald really did claim to have been on the first floor at the time of the shooting, then the story as relayed by Groden does not make sense.

Hearing the loud bangs in the second-floor office, he may conceivably have mistaken them at the time for motorcycle backfires or firecrackers, but there is no way he would have failed to grasp their true meaning by the time of his arrest.

And yet he appears to be placing himself on the first, not second, floor "when President Kennedy passed this building".

**

This is not to say that Groden's witness story is without significance.

It may in fact be of huge importance.

Here--pending disclosure of the full details from Groden--is what I believe may have happened.

1. Oswald got change for the coke machine from Hine a very few minutes before the shooting.

2. Oswald and Hine did hear bangs as she was giving him his change, but they were not shots--they were motorcycle backfires, the same motorcycle backfires which Buell Wesley Frazier told Gary Mack he heard in Dealey Plaza while everyone was awaiting the motorcade.

3. Oswald then went to the second-floor lunchroom and got his coke.

4. Oswald after this went down to the first floor and caught the motorcade. (IMO he, Prayer Man, is holding the coke in his immobile left hand.)

I hesitate to say this, but my suspicion is that Groden has (for understandable reasons) slightly sexed up Hine's account by unequivocally identifying the bangs she said she and Oswald heard as the shots that were fired at Kennedy.

He is also joining the dots between Hine's story and the fictitious lunchroom story in a way not strictly sanctioned by Hine's account.

**

If Hine was indeed the woman Groden spoke with, and if her story was basically factual, then we have another explanation for Reid's being drafted in on the Saturday as a supporting witness for Truly's damage-limitation lunchroom story:

Oswald is still alive.

He is expected to go to trial.

He is going to be talking about an interaction with a female employee in the second-floor office area just before the assassination.

Hine must be told to shut up about giving Oswald change for the coke machine, for her story would blow the lid on the lie that his visit to the lunchroom was post-assassination.

And in order that Oswald's talk at trial about speaking with a female employee in the office area be explained away, Reid must be inveigled into coming forward with a phoney post-assassination Oswald-in-office-area story.

**

If the above outline of events is correct, then why was Hine not simply pressurised into testifying to the WC that she had witnessed the Reid-Oswald encounter?

Because she had already been pressurised into going on the record several times to the effect that she had not seen Lee Oswald at all on the day of the assassination.

The result of all this?

The relationship between Hine's WC testimony and that of Reid is horribly messy and contradictory.

The best Reid can do--can be made to do--is leave open the impression that she may have left the office area shortly after the Oswald encounter.

Where might she have gone to?

Ironically enough, there is only one possible place available if she is to avoid running into Hine in the corridor:

the second-floor lunchroom...

[...]

Sean,

Photographer Malcolm Couch talked about a motorcycle's backfiring on Main Street in his WC testimony:

Mr. BELIN - Do you remember where you vehicle was by the time you heard the third shot?

Mr. COUCH - I would say we were about 50 feet from making - or maybe 60 feet - from making the left-hand turn onto Elm.

Mr. BELIN - Did you hear more than three shots?

Mr. COUCH - No.

Mr. BELIN - Had you heard any noises, what you'd describe like a motorcycle backfiring or firecrackers, prior to the time that you made your turn north on Houston?

Mr. COUCH - Well, way uptown on Main Street, a motorcycle did backfire right behind us - and we all jumped and had a good laugh over it. And the three shots sounded, at first - the impression was that this was another motorcycle backfiring.

(It's interesting that Belin would ask him that question.)

--Tommy

Edited October 11, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[Richard Hocking]

Buell Wesley Frazier made brief reference to the motorcycles backfiring in an interview for the Sixth Floor Museum Oral History Project. I believe it was the 6/21/2002 interview. I made a few notes while listening to the interview. Excerpt:

"... And, as I said earlier, from listening to the motorcycles that was leading the President's car that had been backfiring, at first I thought it was a backfire from a motorcycle..."

[when asked when he first realized Kennedy had been shot] "... By the time of the second and third shot was fired, I realized it wasn't a motorcycle backfire, because it had a different sound to it."

[John Dolva]

After riding slow for a long time the engine gets really hot aand the backfiring not unusual. The motorcade itself was unusual so the likelyhood of many readily differentiating from a smattering of backfires is probably not that high. Somehow I seem to remember gearing down to slow with a partially or fully engaged clutch brings it on more. I have no idea if thinking along that line can be helpful but I seem to remember some saying things about backfires as not being quite right. It's loud and startling but different from a rifle shot.

[Richard Hocking]

Excerpt from Sean's Post:

...

On September 17th 2011 Robert Groden made the following remarks in a radio interview with Len Osanic:

I actually found a woman some years ago. She was terrified. She did not want to come forward. And she finally agreed to give an interview, and I did interview her. When the shots actually went off, she was talking to Lee Oswald on the second floor. […] We always assumed that Lee had the change, that he had had the change for the machine. He didn’t. He went into the office across from the snack room with a dollar bill and asked for change. He said, “No pennies, please.” And, as the change was being counted out into his hand, the shots went off. And they looked at each other, this woman and Lee, and [asked], “What was that?” Backfires, firecrack[ers], who knew? He got the rest of the change, walked back across the hall, bought the Coke and then just a little over a minute later there was a gun in his ribs held by Officer Baker. Lee had an airtight alibi. He could not possibly have done this. She told this story to the Warren Commission. They told her to keep her mouth shut. And she did. She told very few people. Very few people. I was one of the few that she did. So I got to speak to her because I had a friend who knew a friend of hers. I had to promise her I would never reveal any of this until after she was gone. And now she is. The whole story, including her name, will be in the next book.

Groden's book has not yet been published, and it is a cause of real regret that he has chosen to hold back these potentially case-breaking details for so long.

Does anyone know if Robert Groden's new book will be an update to JFK The Case For Conspiracy, or will it be a new title?

His website is not currently promoting a new release. November 22 is 44 days away.

[Robin Unger]

Jackie re: Motorcycle backfire.

Click on image to see full size:

Edited October 11, 2013 by Robin Unger

[Michael Griffin]

Does anyone know if Robert Groden's new book will be an update to JFK The Case For Conspiracy, or will it be a new title?

Richard,

Robert Groden's new book will be titled Absolute Proof. It will be replete with photos - some I think heretofore unseen.

At last year's COPA conference, he said he hoped to have it released before the 50th; however, as I understand it, the release date has been pushed back several times over the last few years. I think he will be presenting at next week's Wecht conference. Perhaps he will share updated information about a publication date at that time.

[Larry Hancock]

Just a minor observation on the "switchboard operator" issue. Given that there were several different companies in the building and I think many had their own independent numbers I'm not sure there was really a central building switchboard....I'm sure somebody can confirm or refute that. But I think that some of the companies may have had key systems, which were essentially extensions off main numbers. That allowed a lot of phones to share a limited number of lines and you could see what lines were available by observing extension lights. One of the book company workers remarked that all the lights on her display were off and then suddenly they all lit up after the shooting...

In some instances secretaries were designated as key system operators, especially on the older and less automated models and might even have been though of as switchboard operators, although not in the classic plug the patch cord into a line termination that you see in the really old movies....and yes I am that old, I've worked both types myself...

[Richard Hocking]

Just a minor observation on the "switchboard operator" issue. Given that there were several different companies in the building and I think many had their own independent numbers I'm not sure there was really a central building switchboard....I'm sure somebody can confirm or refute that. But I think that some of the companies may have had key systems, which were essentially extensions off main numbers. That allowed a lot of phones to share a limited number of lines and you could see what lines were available by observing extension lights. One of the book company workers remarked that all the lights on her display were off and then suddenly they all lit up after the shooting...

In some instances secretaries were designated as key system operators, especially on the older and less automated models and might even have been though of as switchboard operators, although not in the classic plug the patch cord into a line termination that you see in the really old movies....and yes I am that old, I've worked both types myself...

Hi Larry,

Good point. Geneva Hine's testimony sheds some light on your discussion:

Mr. BALL. Was there a switchboard?

Miss HINE. No, sir; we have a telephone with three incoming lines, then we have the warehouse line and we have an intercom system.

Mr. BALL. You don't have a switchboard?

Miss HINE. Not now; we did in the other building.

But her testimony covered only the TSBD business. I believe you are correct about each company in the building having their own dedicated lines, with none of them requiring the use of a switchboard.

There would, however be some point of presence in the building, possibly in the basement, where the incoming carrier lines were re-routed into the local phone lines for each company. If someone wanted to cut off all phones in the building, that would be the ideal location to do so.

Geneva Hine mentioned that the lights went off on her phone lines as the motorcade approached Dealey Plaza. Can you recollect which book company experienced a similar event?

[Richard Hocking]

Does anyone know if Robert Groden's new book will be an update to JFK The Case For Conspiracy, or will it be a new title?

Richard,

Robert Groden's new book will be titled Absolute Proof. It will be replete with photos - some I think heretofore unseen.

At last year's COPA conference, he said he hoped to have it released before the 50th; however, as I understand it, the release date has been pushed back several times over the last few years. I think he will be presenting at next week's Wecht conference. Perhaps he will share updated information about a publication date at that time.

Thanks, Michael.

[Larry Hancock]

Richard, it was probably Geneva that I was thinking of, initially I was very interested in her remarks in conjunction with the reported short power failure on the elevators.

However, there is also a simpler explanation. On a key system phone, you would normally see all the extensions lit which were in use. What she might well have been

seeing was that the people who were on the phone knew the motorcade was about to arrive and hung up....causing the lights to go out.

As to a common point for all the lines, circa 1963 subscriber carrier systems were relatively uncommon, even the early analog ones. It is likely that

the building was probably served by one or more physical cables, coming into interior wiring distribution boxes. Given that the TSBD was an old warehouse, it may well be

that cables were added incrementally and that there were several coming into the building, such facilities were wiring nightmares, I can swear to that. There would be

no easy way to take out the physical cables easily without actually cutting or un-terminating them. You could cut power to the key systems but I suspect they would have

had individual power supplies.

All in all I would tend to lean toward the simpler explanation of everyone hanging up their lines to go watch the parade... Larry

[Richard Hocking]

Larry, you are probably right. This may be another case where the simplest explanation is the best.

I am convinced that electrical power to the elevators was cut for a brief period, but the phones are a separate issue. While the motive to cut off the elevator power is transparent, the motive to turn the phone system off is not nearly as clear.

It makes sense that occupants of the building would hang up the phone to go out and see the motorcade. Still, I have this one issue concerning incoming calls. Callers from other areas of the city or state would have no idea where the motorcade was, or if there even was a motorcade. But it could simply be a matter of no incoming calls happening during the time period in question.

And we do know from Geneva Hine's testimony that a girl in the Southwestern Publishing Co. office was talking on the phone very shortly after shots were fired.

[Larry Hancock]

Richard, its been a number of decades since I worked with Key Systems but incoming calls might well have gone to the main number or numbers and then been transferred to extensions.

Outbound calls would actually pick up available lines. If that were true for the TSBD system it would reflect inside employees hanging up lines and no incoming calls being transferred.

Given that it was the lunch hour probably few folks would be calling in and the folks calling out would be dropping off any calls they had up.

-- just my guess, Larry

[William Kelly]

What floor is this on ?

Robin, that's the first floor.

This is the counter at which Baker and Truly said they bumped into one another as they rushed to get to the rear of the building.

And that's the phone in the background.

The table in the middle of the room with two black spots - they're the telephone(s)?

That's not the first floor lobby phone(s) that Oswald directed reporter to.

[B. A. Copeland]

The interesting aspect of the Allman-Oswald encounter is this: Why or how on earth did not Allman recognize Oswald later once it became official that Oswald did the shooting, akin to Odio's reaction when seeing Oswald on the news?