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Dal-Tex


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Again excellent photo James..

This is a much easier location to fire from then the 6th floor TSBD, LOS is good, one just needs to know how to take a lead shot. Also this location, one can take more time to place an accurate shot..IMHO 1 no more then 2 shots can come from this location....

This is a great photo thanks James...

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Hi

I do realize this is a bit "off-topic," but I just wanted to take this opportunity, with the photos to point this out to those who have not been to DP.

In Robin's post #8, it appears that the photo may have been taken from an upper floor of the old Paramount Hotel It has been refurbished and is now called the Lawrence Hotel. This is where the JFK COPA Conference is gathered each November.

In addition, in Post #11 you can see the old dark colored building which is the old courthouse...looks like a cathedral. Just across from it, is the side street and the taller white building, with the wall looking facade that comes down in front. I believe this is called the Bradley Bldg. Behind it, is another side street and just across this street, is where the Lawrence Hotel is actually located.

I just wanted to show everyone that has never been there, how close the COPA Conf and Hotel is to DP. I have been asked this question many times by those who are thinking of going there.

________________

Dixie

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Good Day James.... Thank You for providing that additional Dal-Tex photo looking southwestward down Elm.

Quick triangulation shows that photo was captured from the Dal-Tex south face, 4th vertical column of windows eastward from the DT southwest corner (I estimate 4th or 5th floor).

Your D.P.D. source sounds very interesting. Is there a chance of an interview and/or asking him to join us online?

Don Roberdeau

U.S.S. John F. Kennedy, CV-67, "Big John" Plank Walker

Sooner, or later, the Truth emerges Clearly

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/DP.jpg

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/ROSE...NOUNCEMENT.html

T ogether

E veryone

A chieves

M ore

"We red marked ... red penciled that statement from beginning to end because there was a lot of errors in it."

---- SAM HOLLAND, attack witness standing on the TOP who heard 4 audible muzzle blasts and/or mechanically-suppress-fired bullet bow shockwaves and saw the "grassy knoll"-lingering gunsmoke, describing how he and his attorney corrected his warrenatti-testimony transcript because the transcript did not match what HOLLAND had actually said. (sound familiar?) The corrected transcript was not printed in the warrenatti canard, and is, so far, "unaccounted for" or "lost" (sound familiar?)

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James, did your friend tell you when he bought these photos? Before Life Magazine bought the rights for the backyard photos from Marina, someone had already sold a number of photos, including the backyard photo which made Life's cover, to the Detroit Free Press. If your friend bought the photos in this same time frame, then maybe we can uncover who in the DPD was selling evidence, including the two missing negatives.

Edited by Pat Speer
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Hello Robin.

RB Cutler's map agrees with you on the origination of the shot which struck the curb as being from the DaTex, but I don't believe it could have come from that elevation? A simple way to prove it in would be to place a laser pointer at the curb and then aim it back towards the cars coming down Elm, trying not to blind anyone. With the downwards pitch to Elm, I hesitate to go higher than a 2nd floor window or 3rd floor fire escape shot - but that's assuming that the round wasn't deflected.

Worth noting - Mack White's story, when he was 11 years old and visiting Dealey Plaza with his Father the following day. I'd like to see the pictures he refers to, and will email him.

http://www.mackwhite.com/Dealey.html

My father bought one of the papers (which I still have) and we walked around, my father taking pictures (which I also still have).

At one point, my father pointed out the so-called "sniper" window to me. As I was looking up, my eye wandered away from the window to the fire escape on the building across the street--the Dal-Tex building-where I saw two men taking turns looking through the scope of a rifle mounted on a tripod.

I was alarmed. "What are they doing?" I asked.

"It's part of the investigation," said my father.

So the police were checking out an alternative sniper perch. Evidently, that morning, there was still something resembling a real investigation. The investigation, of course, would end the next day with Oswald’s death.

I think you know my take on it. I still believe that the shot which penentrated the windshield came from a lower elevation, DalTex, was unjacketed, fully penetrated the windshield, and then went on to strike the curb. This would explain the absence of copper, and the low velocity comment.

From the Warren Report:

http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol15/page700.php

Mr. Redlich.

For the record, the results of this investigation have been summarized in a communication from Director Hoover to Mr. Rankin, dated August 12, 1964, and designated now as the Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 27; is that correct, Mr. Shaneyfelt?

The absence of copper precludes the possibility that the mark on the curbing in the laboratory resulted in the finding of foreign metal smears adhering, to the curbing section within the area of the mark. These metal smears were spectrographically determined to be essentially lead with a trace of antimony. No copper was found.

The lead could have originated from the lead core of a mutilated metal-jacketed bullet such as the type of bullet loaded into the 6.5-millimeter Carcano cartridges, or from some other source having the same composition.

The absence of copper precludes the possibility that the mark on the curbing section was made by an unmutilated military full metal-jacketed bullet such as the bullet from Governor Connally's stretcher.

The damage to the curbing would have been much more extensive if a rifle bullet had struck the curbing without first having struck some other object. Therefore, this mark could not have been made by the first impact of a high velocity rifle bullet.

Cutler uses the Z-film to reference 2 separate shots from the DalTex, one at z226, and what he believes was the miss, at z285.

All that having been said, Duncan MacRae believes he found more than one man on the fire escape - at a higher elevation. The fire escape provided street access with one of those pull down extensions. You could have accessed the 2nd floor window from this fire escape, or crouched on the 3rd floor of the fire escape, without ever entering the front of the building.

Jim Hamilton also believed he saw movement on the DalTex fire escape in Hughes.

The large man sitting on the stairs has always made me wonder. Someone somewhere relayed that these men were painters. Odd hat for a painter to be wearing - was that the style in 1963 Dallas? And someone of that man's bulk is hard to imagine jumping for the bottom of the fire escape stairs, or hauling himself out a window, simply to eat his lunch. What was being painted that day, the fire escape?

Just doublechecked - Duncan saw a man on the 3rd floor of the Fire Escape. In the area I have identified with the red arrow.

Sorry, one last observation are the group of men gathered at the base of the fire escape. They are interesting, IMO. If you wanted to use the fire escape as your means of gaining elevation in the DalTex, you'd need to secure the access point.

- lee

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Pat,

If your friend bought the photos in this same time frame, then maybe we can uncover who in the DPD was selling evidence, including the two missing negatives.

From the November 18, 1994 testimony of Joe Backes before the ARRB:

"Several retired Dallas policemen have files and evidence relating to this case. So far there have been two books from Dallas policemen, Jesse Curry's assassination file, recently there is a book by Gary Savage, I believe, a nephew of Rusty Livingston who worked in the crime lab. This book is called, First Day Evidence. Rusty Livingston would have a lot of evidence and files relating to the case that would be worth looking at."

Steve Thomas

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James, did your friend tell you when he bought these photos?  Before Life Magazine bought the rights for the backyard photos from Marina, someone had already sold a number of photos, including the backyard photo which made Life's cover, to the Detroit Free Press.  If your friend bought the photos in this same time frame, then maybe we can uncover who in the DPD was selling evidence, including the two missing negatives.

Pat,

I'm pretty sure he purchased the images in the late 1970's.

James

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Hello Robin.

RB Cutler's map agrees with you on the origination of the shot which struck the curb as being from the DaTex, but I don't believe it could have come from that elevation?  A simple way to prove it in would be to place a laser pointer at the curb and then aim it back towards the cars coming down Elm, trying not to blind anyone.  With the downwards pitch to Elm, I hesitate to go higher than a 2nd floor window or 3rd floor fire escape shot - but that's assuming that the round wasn't deflected.

Worth noting - Mack White's story, when he was 11 years old and visiting Dealey Plaza with his Father the following day.  I'd like to see the pictures he refers to, and will email him.

http://www.mackwhite.com/Dealey.html

My father bought one of the papers (which I still have) and we walked around, my father taking pictures (which I also still have).

At one point, my father pointed out the so-called "sniper" window to me. As I was looking up, my eye wandered away from the window to the fire escape on the building across the street--the Dal-Tex building-where I saw two men taking turns looking through the scope of a rifle mounted on a tripod.

I was alarmed. "What are they doing?" I asked.

"It's part of the investigation," said my father.

So the police were checking out an alternative sniper perch. Evidently, that morning, there was still something resembling a real investigation. The investigation, of course, would end the next day with Oswald’s death.

I think you know my take on it. I still believe that the shot which penentrated the windshield came from a lower elevation, DalTex, was unjacketed, fully penetrated the windshield, and then went on to strike the curb. This would explain the absence of copper, and the low velocity comment.

From the Warren Report:

http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol15/page700.php

Mr. Redlich.

For the record, the results of this investigation have been summarized in a communication from Director Hoover to Mr. Rankin, dated August 12, 1964, and designated now as the Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 27; is that correct, Mr. Shaneyfelt?

The absence of copper precludes the possibility that the mark on the curbing in the laboratory resulted in the finding of foreign metal smears adhering, to the curbing section within the area of the mark. These metal smears were spectrographically determined to be essentially lead with a trace of antimony. No copper was found.

The lead could have originated from the lead core of a mutilated metal-jacketed bullet such as the type of bullet loaded into the 6.5-millimeter Carcano cartridges, or from some other source having the same composition.

The absence of copper precludes the possibility that the mark on the curbing section was made by an unmutilated military full metal-jacketed bullet such as the bullet from Governor Connally's stretcher.

The damage to the curbing would have been much more extensive if a rifle bullet had struck the curbing without first having struck some other object. Therefore, this mark could not have been made by the first impact of a high velocity rifle bullet.

Cutler uses the Z-film to reference 2 separate shots from the DalTex, one at z226, and what he believes was the miss, at z285.

All that having been said, Duncan MacRae believes he found more than one man on the fire escape - at a higher elevation. The fire escape provided street access with one of those pull down extensions. You could have accessed the 2nd floor window from this fire escape, or crouched on the 3rd floor of the fire escape, without ever entering the front of the building.

Jim Hamilton also believed he saw movement on the DalTex fire escape in Hughes.

The large man sitting on the stairs has always made me wonder. Someone somewhere relayed that these men were painters. Odd hat for a painter to be wearing - was that the style in 1963 Dallas? And someone of that man's bulk is hard to imagine jumping for the bottom of the fire escape stairs, or hauling himself out a window, simply to eat his lunch. What was being painted that day, the fire escape?

Just doublechecked - Duncan saw a man on the 3rd floor of the Fire Escape. In the area I have identified with the red arrow.

Sorry, one last observation are the group of men gathered at the base of the fire escape. They are interesting, IMO. If you wanted to use the fire escape as your means of gaining elevation in the DalTex, you'd need to secure the access point.

- lee

Hi Lee.

The window you are pointing to appears to be closed, either that or it has curtains hanging down .

What ever the elevation, it needs to be high enough to shoot over the heads of the Secret Service (Approx 7-feet)

And approximate the TSBD trajectory so that no questions will be asked come autopsy time.

I beleive that the guy on the fire escapes image seemed distorted by part of the metal rail which made it look like he was wearing a stupid hat.

I have tried to outline what i think is the correct image.

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Good Day James.... Thank You for providing that additional Dal-Tex photo looking southwestward down Elm.

Quick triangulation shows that photo was captured from the Dal-Tex south face, 4th vertical column of windows eastward from the DT southwest corner (I estimate 4th or 5th floor).

Your D.P.D. source sounds very interesting. Is there a chance of an interview and/or asking him to join us online?

Hi Don,

Yes, I agree, 4th or 5th floor.

My source is indeed a member here at the Education Forum and very much enjoys the discussions . He was never a member of the DPD but did have a solid contact from their ranks. That contact (I don't know his identity) passed away several years ago.

I know my friend won't be interviewed. I also know that when a certain individual passes away, he will allow me to post some interesting material.

James

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Good Day James.... Thank You for providing that additional Dal-Tex photo looking southwestward down Elm.

Quick triangulation shows that photo was captured from the Dal-Tex south face, 4th vertical column of windows eastward from the DT southwest corner (I estimate 4th or 5th floor).

Your D.P.D. source sounds very interesting. Is there a chance of an interview and/or asking him to join us online?

Hi Don,

Yes, I agree, 4th or 5th floor.

My source is indeed a member here at the Education Forum and very much enjoys the discussions . He was never a member of the DPD but did have a solid contact from their ranks. That contact (I don't know his identity) passed away several years ago.

I know my friend won't be interviewed. I also know that when a certain individual passes away, he will allow me to post some interesting material.

James

Hi James,

Re the trajectories, when the Laser study was done, and is on video...Groden disagreed with them many times, there were many tough differences of opinion.....

One laser study did pin point the Dal Tex second storey window as leading directly to the Tague hit......He also could not get them to do a Laser study to the fence, re the BDM.

I will have to watch it again..but I do believe I recall this much....will check.

B B)

Edited by Bernice Moore
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Hi James,

Re the trajectories, when the Laser study was done, and is on video...Groden disagreed with them many times, there were many tough differences of opinion.....

One laser study did pin point the Dal Tex second storey window as leading directly to the Tague hit......He also could not get them to do a Laser study to the fence, re the BDM.

I will have to watch it again..but I do believe I recall this much....will check. (Bernice Moore)

I believe you are correct, Bernice.

If my memory isn't failing me, this was the documentary about the KGB secret files or something similar hosted by Roger Moore.

The laser tests were ridiculous because they were conducted according to the medical evidence and we all know how dubious a source that is. They would only consider shots from the rear which almost blew up in their faces because as you said, one went straight back to a low floor of the Dal-Tex. D'oh!

They also did this idiotic test to see if the supposed shots by Oswald could be duplicated in under 6 seconds or whatever it was. Three stationary targets were laid out at intervals matching the supposed timing. The shooter fired from a flat trajectory and indeed made the shots.

Ryan Crowe would have fallen off his chair laughing at the stupidity and invalidity of this moronic test. All it proved was how determined they were to back-up the official findings.

My DVD of this program is currently employed as a coaster on our outdoor setting.

James

Edited by James Richards
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They also did this idiotic test to see if the supposed shots by Oswald could be duplicated in under 6 seconds or whatever it was. Three stationary targets were laid out at intervals matching the supposed timing. The shooter fired from a flat trajectory and indeed made the shots.

Ryan Crowe would have fallen off his chair laughing at the stupidity and invalidity of this moronic test. All it proved was how determined they were to back-up the official findings.

:D These tests would prove nothing, even shooting from a elevated position at stationary targets would prove nothing, I even laugh at shooting at a moving target from a elevated position not acceptable due to the fact you take out the human stress factor (buck fever).The only reason for a test with a moving target firing from a elevated position is to see if the rifle/scope itself is accurate enough to make those shots, because we all know Oswald was GARBAGE with a rifle and this is coming from him shooting a M1 Garand, a rifle much much more accurate then the Carcano. What alot of folks dont realize is how difficult the TSBD position is for a firing position, especially for a right handed shooter, even with a great rifle.

Trying to get off 3 accurate shots in the said amount of time, from that location, under that condition, with that crap of a rifle is in my book just about if not impossible...Lets not forget your first shot will ALWAYS be thee most accurate because every shot after is going to be a hurried shot, but the WC didnt find this to be true :rolleyes:

From my exp of being a shooter I cannot tell you how pissed off/frustrated I get when hearing of these tests, because most of the American public at that time bought this garbage and some still do, not knowing the difference........And lets face it, the Govt knew this would be a weakness for the public, and thats why they sold it....

Its after 1 am, I need a beer and some sleep, good night all....

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Trying to get off 3 accurate shots in the said amount of time, from that location, under that condition, with that crap of a rifle is in my book just about if not impossible...Lets not forget your first shot will ALWAYS be thee most accurate because every shot after is going to be a hurried shot, but the WC didnt find this to be true :rolleyes:

From my exp of being a shooter I cannot tell you how pissed off/frustrated I get when hearing of these tests, because most of the American public at that time bought this garbage and some still do, not knowing the difference........And lets face it, the Govt knew this would be a weakness for the public, and thats why they sold it....

Its after 1 am, I need a beer and some sleep, good night all....

Actually, the WC DID say the first shot would be the best, and believed that the first shot was indeed the single-bullet shot. This went against the testimony of the Connallys, who swore Kennedy was hit by the first shot, and that Connally was turning when he was hit by the second shot. CBS, The HSCA and the current Posner crowd have all decided there was a first shot miss, and that the single-bullet shot was the second shot. The HSCA, amazingly, to get their shots to match the sounds on the dictabelt, found that the miss was at 160 and the single-bullet shot was at 190, both by Oswald, which means he took two shots within 1 and 2/3 seconds, with the second one hitting the target. This is idiotic. Expert marksman hired by the HSCA couldn't replicate this shooting, although they did find they could chamber the bullet and pull the trigger in that amount of time. The HSCA ruled then that Oswald must have accomplished this shot through "point-aiming," meaning pulling the trigger while aiming in a general direction without spotting the target in the site. This is equally idiotic. What are the chances of hitting a moving target under such circumstances? Why not take an extra second and aim? Ridiculous!

The Secret KGB JFK Assassination Files re-enactment using lasers was not a waste of time, and was actually quite helpful to those who believe there was a conspiracy. For the show demonstrated that the only way DiMaio could get the wounds to line up with the TSBD was to have the dummy lean forward. Dale Myers' cartoon demonstrated essentially this same thing, only he lifted the wound to the position of the Rydberg drawing so he could say it all added up. If one were to sit the dummy upright where do you suppose a backwards projection connecting Connally's back wound to Kennedy's throat wound ends up? That's right. The roof of the Dal-Tex.

I said it in my seminar and I'll say it till I'm blue in the face: the autopsy photos and the Zapruder film are concrete proof of a conspiracy. To believe they have been faked is to believe the government has perversely faked the evidence for a conspiracy. It is the interpretations by government experts and doctors that are questionable.

Edited by Pat Speer
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