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Robert MacNeil and the three calm men


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Duke...thanks for a well-organized presentation of the inconsistencies in the various testimonies, especially the memories of time frames.

I agree that such inconsistencies don't necessarily indicate complicity, but neither do they imply innocence as you suggest. For instance, I do not find enough evidence to implicate Lovelady, but on the other hand, there is enough evidence to be suspicious of Frazier... not that he was "involved"...but that he certainly KNEW much more than he testified to.

Thanks, Jack! In all of the testimony I've read, I can only recall a couple of instances where the deponents have been allowed to carry on a monologue or lengthy discourse; Jack Ruby was one such exception.

The vast majority of deponents, however, were subject to direct question-and-answer interrogation. When the next question comes rolling around, you answer; you don't elaborate on a previous answer - or return to a previous question because you suddenly remembered something - unless you're asked to.

If Frazier knew or knows more than he testified to, it is because he wasn't asked.

After all, how many citations can we compile of people whose testimony was moving along "unprofitable" lines was suddenly "sidetracked" by counsel? "Well, Oswald was standing next to me when the President ---" "Now, what time do you normally come to work, and did you come to work that day at the same time, Mr Doe?" "Oh, I usually come in at 8:00, but that day --" "That's 8:00 and not 8:30 like everyone else? Why is that?" ... "Well, no further questions, thank you for coming."

I find interesting that you did not comment on the most glaring statement by Lovelady:
LOVELADY

... recalled that Shelley and Sarah Stanton were standing next to him. After the shooting, he ran "toward the spot where President Kennedy's car had stopped," and that he and Shelley stayed in that area for "approximately five minutes" before going into the TSBD via the west doors.

If Lovelady is being truthful and accurate, why do you have no comment on this statement WHICH ALL ALONE PROVES THE Z FILM A FABRICATION? The Z film does NOT show the limo stopping! This statement is far more valuable than his poor estimate of how much time passed.

Jack, you've done perspective studies before, and can no doubt calculate how far the Z-film shows the limo to have moved forward while the brake lights were on. You can probably tell us the dimensions of the rear of the limo as well, and the speeds that it was going before the lights came on and after.

Given those calculable things, tell us how much the rear of the limo would have decreased in perceived size (objects that move away from an observer appear smaller as they get farther away, larger as they get nearer) to an observer as far away as the end of the divider "island" between Elm Street and the extension that goes in front of TSBD ... which was, what, 100 feet away? 150?

I didn't find it to be a significant statement because Lovelady was behind the limo and could not discern the forward movement of the vehicle.

That brake lights came on for a couple of seconds on a slow-moving vehicle, I would posit that it is reasonable to perceive that it stopped because the "size" of the vehicle did not perceptibly change. You can see movement in the Z-film, however, solely because it is "side-to-side" motion from Zapruder's perspective.

If it had come to a complete stop and, a couple of seconds later rolled forward just five feet before stopping again, it would have been obvious to someone at the side, but not necessarily to someone a hundred feet directly behind it. Gerry Hemming did a good job of explaining why they came on and the car slowed in another thread here; do a keyword search on "left foot" to find it.

I think hanging your hat on Lovelady's statement is grasping at straws. I didn't consider it as indicative of anything except that Lovelady saw the brake lights come on.

EDIT: PS - I'll respond to timing issues later when I'm able to return to Weston's response.

I'll have to look it up if I have time, but I think there were 59 persons

who testified that the limo came to a stop. Typical is Hugh Betzner, who

said "I WALKED DOWN TOWARD WHERE THE LIMO HAD STOPPED".

...I just looked it up. It is a Vince Palamara article in MURDER IN DEALEY

PLAZA, 119-128.

Were all 59 mistaken? I suggest that you read Palamara's list before

continuing.

Jack

Jack

Edited by Jack White
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As for the veracity of Victoria Adams, I have already made my decision that she is believable. I think you ought to take a stand and decide for yourself, either yea or nay.

The reference to the two white men is in Marion Baker's testimony volume 3, p. 263

Senator COOPER. Did you see anyone else while you were in the building, other than this man you have identified later as Oswald, and Mr. Truly?

Mr. Baker.On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us.

Mr. Dulles.Were they white men?

Mr. Baker. Yes, sir.

I look forward to reading the additional comments you said you wanted to make later.

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As for the veracity of Victoria Adams, I have already made my decision that she is believable. I think you ought to take a stand and decide for yourself, either yea or nay.

The reference to the two white men is in Marion Baker's testimony volume 3, p. 263

Senator COOPER. Did you see anyone else while you were in the building, other than this man you have identified later as Oswald, and Mr. Truly?

Mr. Baker.On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us.

Mr. Dulles.Were they white men?

Mr. Baker. Yes, sir.

I look forward to reading the additional comments you said you wanted to make later.

As noted earlier, I don't think it's a question of Adams' veracity, but rather her accuracy. If you can explain to me how she could have been downstairs saying something to Shelley and Lovelady who didn't respond to her without encountering either Truly, Baker or Oswald on the stairs, I'll change my mind about how accurate she was in terms of when she got downstairs.

Unfortunately, it doesn't seem as if anything at all will change your mind once you've made a decision about something. I hope that you allow true believers in the WCR the same understanding.

As to Baker's testimony about the two white men (thank you for that, by the way), here is the complete exchange so that we can determine where these two white men were. Remember that TSBD's interior is 100'x100' ....

Senator COOPER. Did you see anyone else while you were in the building, other than this man you have identified later as Oswald, and Mr. Truly?

Mr. Baker. On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us.

Mr. Dulles. Were they white men?

Mr. Baker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Officer Baker, we have an exhibit here 362 showing the first floor of the School Book Depository Building, and the top part of the exhibit is south. It is a little bit upside down from the usual top being north. You will notice here the stairway in the front of the building.

Mr. Baker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. And then there is a glass swinging door which I believe is shown there. Could you mark the point at which you believe you were when you called out for someone to tell you where the stairway or elevator was?

Mr. Baker. Is that the steps on the outside and this is the----

Mr. Belin. These are the steps on the outside, this is the door, the first door and this is kind of the main lobby here, below the words "Main Entrance."

Baker said "as we came through the main doorway to the elevators," but you'll notice on CE 362 that there is no "main doorway to the elevators," so did he mean "as we came through the main doorway to the building, on the way to the elevators," or what? In other words, is the "main doorway" he's referring to the "main entrance" Belin referred to, or one "to the elevators" that doesn't exist on the schematic?

Unfortunately, Mr Baker died a few years ago, so we can't ask him. We likewise can't determine where "this side" was that one man was sitting, or whether the other was 20-30 feet away from them at the elevators or at or near the "main doorway." Depending upon where "there" was depends where the two men were. He was not asked to mark on CE362 where the men were, and tho' asked to draw the route he'd taken to the elevators, he either failed to do so or the marked-up verion of 362 was not entered into evidence.

Only two white men didn't go outside at all: one definitely was on the 3rd floor (we have photographic proof of that) and the other said he was on the 5th floor (we have his sworn statements). Of the remaining 12 who went outside initially, only two did not return inside at all. Two of them were several blocks away at lunch. Two went in within seconds of Baker. Of the remaining eight, can you state when each of them went in and how many of them are potential candidates for these "two men?"

(I'd suggest that Frazier had also said that Shelley and Lovelady had gone across the roadway extension, but we "can't count" his word because he's a "co-conspirator.")

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Duke wrote:

Baker said "as we came through the main doorway to the elevators," but you'll notice on CE 362 that there is no "main doorway to the elevators," so did he mean "as we came through the main doorway to the building, on the way to the elevators," or what? In other words, is the "main doorway" he's referring to the "main entrance" Belin referred to, or one "to the elevators" that doesn't exist on the schematic?

Duke was never in the TSBD, original configuration. Robert Cutler

made it possible for a group of local researchers to enter the

building in the 70s and study the building for several hours. Attached

is a photo of me in the "sniper nest". The elevator was in this same

corner of the building, but did not go higher than the office floors.

After entering thru the "main doorway" you encountered a small

passenger elevator immediately to the right of the entrance. This

elevator only went to the "office floors", not to the upper floors.

This was a different elevator from the 2 freight elevators at the

rear of the building.

Jack

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Duke was never in the TSBD, original configuration. Robert Cutler

made it possible for a group of local researchers to enter the

building in the 70s and study the building for several hours. Attached

is a photo of me in the "sniper nest". The elevator was in this same

corner of the building, but did not go higher than the office floors. (Jack White)

Great photo, Jack.

That looks like a very awkward spot for a right handed shooter to fire from.

James

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Duke was never in the TSBD, original configuration. Robert Cutler

made it possible for a group of local researchers to enter the

building in the 70s and study the building for several hours. Attached

is a photo of me in the "sniper nest". The elevator was in this same

corner of the building, but did not go higher than the office floors. (Jack White)

Great photo, Jack.

That looks like a very awkward spot for a right handed shooter to fire from.

James

Thanks, James. Researcher Howard Upchurch took that shot of me. You

may note that I also had a camera with me, and took the photo below.

Consider the tight space filled with boxes, and note that the space is

further cramped for a shooter by the pipes in the corner.

Jack

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Guest John Gillespie

"These men not only had prior knowledge of the assassination plot, but also they were performing some indispensable part in it. Their unexcitable demeanor is a distinctive trademark of disciplined agents trained to carry out a special mission."

"The strange calmness that MacNeil noticed in the men he saw would be an apt description for the behavior of Shelley, Lovelady, and Frazier."

Bill,

Yours is a very painstaking but ultimately disappointing analysis, replete with so many of the characteristics present in a given sampling of the postings by the sloppy and wishful thinkers who comprise membership here. Do you not see stark, polar contrast in the above statements? Are these not wild. speculative assumptions - particularly in the first paragraph - that utterly are without warrant and bordering on willful, anxious stupidity?

Furthermore, is it not a minority among us who have not witnessed even the dumbest-looking nebbish remain totally calm in the midst of danger or violence.? Yeah, surely the three lobby guys must have looked and sounded suspicious or of a certain stereotype if the scenario was as described. But have we not seen supposed 'truths' punctured and shredded by more careful and honest research? In fact, you've done that quite well on your posting, with exceptions noted. But when one states matters in declarative terms as if they were definitive when they are not...I think you get the picture. Why am I so in-your-face? Because this stuff creates setbacks and makes our critics look and feel good. That, my friend, is an outrage.

That said, it was nice to see Manchester further discredited. His work so often was fraudulent. Like Jim Bishop's, it was shallow as well. Along the way, however, you have discredited yourself.

Happy New Year,

JG

"These men not only had prior knowledge of the assassination plot, but also they were performing some indispensable part in it. Their unexcitable demeanor is a distinctive trademark of disciplined agents trained to carry out a special mission."

"The strange calmness that MacNeil noticed in the men he saw would be an apt description for the behavior of Shelley, Lovelady, and Frazier."

Bill,

Yours is a very painstaking but ultimately disappointing analysis, replete with so many of the characteristics present in a given sampling of the postings by the sloppy and wishful thinkers who comprise membership here. Do you not see stark, polar contrast in the above statements? Are these not wild. speculative assumptions - particularly in the first paragraph - that utterly are without warrant and bordering on willful, anxious stupidity?

Furthermore, is it not a minority among us who have not witnessed even the dumbest-looking nebbish remain totally calm in the midst of danger or violence.? Yeah, surely the three lobby guys must have looked and sounded suspicious or of a certain stereotype if the scenario was as described. But have we not seen supposed 'truths' punctured and shredded by more careful and honest research? In fact, you've done that quite well on your posting, with exceptions noted. But when one states matters in declarative terms as if they were definitive when they are not...I think you get the picture. Why am I so in-your-face? Because this stuff creates setbacks and makes our critics look and feel good. That, my friend, is an outrage.

That said, it was nice to see Manchester further discredited. His work so often was fraudulent. Like Jim Bishop's, it was shallow as well. Along the way, however, you have discredited yourself.

Happy New Year,

JG

P.S. And, where do you get off saying MacNeill must have been looking for a phone as he turned and got his picture taken? More of the same crap, Bill.

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Guest John Gillespie

I'll have to look it up if I have time, but I think there were 59 persons

who testified that the limo came to a stop. Typical is Hugh Betzner, who

said "I WALKED DOWN TOWARD WHERE THE LIMO HAD STOPPED".

...I just looked it up. It is a Vince Palamara article in MURDER IN DEALEY

PLAZA, 119-128.

Were all 59 mistaken? I suggest that you read Palamara's list before

continuing.

Jack

Jack

I flat out don't believe it. "Were all 59 mistaken?" Gee, ya got us there, Jack; I mean, who could argue with 59.....oh, hey, wait a minute! Know what? We don't have to argue with 59 people! We can just dismiss this with, say, "hey, Vince, we don't believe you." Just like we can say "hey, Jack, spare us the page count citation. It does nothing except expose the citer while we call his or her bluff. When we see things like that we know an agenda is at work. We want quotes from all 59 people. In fact, we want to know who they are and why they were there, too." Yeah, that's what we can say, Jack, as we dismiss this preposterous, incredulous fantasy. Hey, witnesses, sign up here and get a toaster if you say you saw the limo STOP.

Happy New Year,

JG

Edited by John Gillespie
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I'll have to look it up if I have time, but I think there were 59 persons

who testified that the limo came to a stop. Typical is Hugh Betzner, who

said "I WALKED DOWN TOWARD WHERE THE LIMO HAD STOPPED".

...I just looked it up. It is a Vince Palamara article in MURDER IN DEALEY

PLAZA, 119-128.

Were all 59 mistaken? I suggest that you read Palamara's list before

continuing.

Jack

Jack

I flat out don't believe it. "Were all 59 mistaken?" Gee, ya got us there, Jack; I mean, who could argue with 59.....oh, hey, wait a minute! Know what? We don't have to argue with 59 people! We can just dismiss this with, say, "hey, Vince, we don't believe you." Just like we can say "hey, Jack, spare us the page count citation. It does nothing except expose the citer while we call his or her bluff. When we see things like that we know an agenda is at work. We want quotes from all 59 people. In fact, we want to know who they are and why they were there, too." Yeah, that's what we can say, Jack, as we dismiss this preposterous, incredulous fantasy. Hey, witnesses, sign up here and get a toaster if you say you saw the limo STOP.

Happy New Year,

JG

How can you comment on something you have not read? Palamara took nine

pages to quote all 59 statements in MIDP. Read the book, and debunk each

statement. If you cannot read, have your mommy read it to you. If you do

not understand it, have your mommy explain it to you. If you don't have the

book, borrow it. Or if you are not too cheap, buy one at Amazon.com.

Jack

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Guest James H. Fetzer

Jack told me that children were posting on the Simkin Forum, but I had to

visit to see with my own eyes. This is the most juvenile response about

a serious issue--where the evidence is clear, compelling, and easily ac-

cessible--I have encountered in more than a decade of JFK research. If

this is what JG has to offer, he should find other ways to waste his time.

I'll have to look it up if I have time, but I think there were 59 persons

who testified that the limo came to a stop. Typical is Hugh Betzner, who

said "I WALKED DOWN TOWARD WHERE THE LIMO HAD STOPPED".

...I just looked it up. It is a Vince Palamara article in MURDER IN DEALEY

PLAZA, 119-128.

Were all 59 mistaken? I suggest that you read Palamara's list before

continuing.

Jack

Jack

I flat out don't believe it. "Were all 59 mistaken?" Gee, ya got us there, Jack; I mean, who could argue with 59.....oh, hey, wait a minute! Know what? We don't have to argue with 59 people! We can just dismiss this with, say, "hey, Vince, we don't believe you." Just like we can say "hey, Jack, spare us the page count citation. It does nothing except expose the citer while we call his or her bluff. When we see things like that we know an agenda is at work. We want quotes from all 59 people. In fact, we want to know who they are and why they were there, too." Yeah, that's what we can say, Jack, as we dismiss this preposterous, incredulous fantasy. Hey, witnesses, sign up here and get a toaster if you say you saw the limo STOP.

Happy New Year,

JG

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I'll have to look it up if I have time, but I think there were 59 persons who testified that the limo came to a stop. Typical is Hugh Betzner, who said "I WALKED DOWN TOWARD WHERE THE LIMO HAD STOPPED".

...I just looked it up. It is a Vince Palamara article in MURDER IN DEALEY PLAZA, 119-128.

Were all 59 mistaken? I suggest that you read Palamara's list before continuing.

Jack

Jack,

Once again, it has to do with perspective: if you were where the limo appeared to move from side to side, then it did not stop, but DID slow down very slow. If you were to the rear and the limo appeared to be growing smaller as it receded away from you, and you saw the brake lights go on, it may have appeared to have stopped, even if it did not.

If the 59 people were all to the rear, then yes, they are all mistaken. Appearances can be deceiving, as you of all people should know!

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I'll have to look it up if I have time, but I think there were 59 persons who testified that the limo came to a stop. Typical is Hugh Betzner, who said "I WALKED DOWN TOWARD WHERE THE LIMO HAD STOPPED".

...I just looked it up. It is a Vince Palamara article in MURDER IN DEALEY PLAZA, 119-128.

Were all 59 mistaken? I suggest that you read Palamara's list before continuing.

Jack

Jack,

Once again, it has to do with perspective: if you were where the limo appeared to move from side to side, then it did not stop, but DID slow down very slow. If you were to the rear and the limo appeared to be growing smaller as it receded away from you, and you saw the brake lights go on, it may have appeared to have stopped, even if it did not.

If the 59 people were all to the rear, then yes, they are all mistaken. Appearances can be deceiving, as you of all people should know!

Duke...by your answer you show you have no idea what the 59 witnesses SAID. This

is very poor research...to comment on witness statements you HAVE NOT READ.

Do you have a copy of MIDP? If not, how can you comment on the Palamara article...

and INCORRECTLY at that? Get the book.

Read the article. Then comment on each witness statement from the perspective

of each witness. You will be surprised to find that all 59 were not at the REAR, but

in many locations. For instance, Witness Johnson on the TRIPLE OVERPASS said

"YOU COULD SEE IT SPEED UP, STOP, SPEED UP, AND THEN STOP..."

There are 58 others.

Eager to hear your 59 analyses.

Jack

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my 2bits on

"YOU COULD SEE IT SPEED UP, STOP, SPEED UP, AND THEN STOP..."

This is an interesting one as it mirrors what happes in the Zapruder and the Muchmore film. One needs to take a wide view on this and consider what is happening outside of the very small areas framed by the various films. The various vehicles are bunched up at the top of elm and separate around the sign, this may very well look as if the lead limo is speeding up while in fact the others are experiencing the concertina effect of an earlier 'pause'. The motorcycles having less mass are as can be seen more nimble or responsive to a tap on the accelerator. Hence relative to each other a speeding up of the motorcycles gives a relative impression of the limo slowing, (remember that the vehicles are travelling TOWARDS this witness)(it did slow of course, however it's massive and therefore less responsive to forces that change its velocity and obviously never stopped in the sense of not moving at all.) Following the head shot it momentarily sped up, then paused to allow Clint to catch up, then it sped off. Meanwhile other vehicles outside the frames move in different ways and give these relativity impressions. Also there were a number of directional changes that depending on the perspective of the observer adds to sense of movement. One must never forget that all this happened in a fraction of the time that it took me to write this.

So, it did indeed, as shown by the various films : "'speed up' 'stop' 'speed up' 'stop'" ....and then sped off.

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Jack,

My reply is in the "Zapruder: Four Questions" thread (http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...45&gopid=50163&.

Edited by Duke Lane
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