John Armstrong blasts the mail order rifle “evidence”

[Guest]

Any idea what is up with the document Armstrong uses for Holmes T informant status and the two I presented on Feb 2?

[Bernie Laverick]

The whole implication, knowing how devoted to the H&L theory John and Jim are, is that somehow somebody in the FBI had prior knowledge of the gun shop saga, and of someone purporting to be LHO. It is sold as a "mystery" as to how the FBI could have come by this information yet the chain of evidence showing this hasn't been explained in the original article. That surprises me because other parts of the article are extremely well researched. Funny that the bit that shows exactly how the FBI came to know of this gun shop tag is left dangling in mid air and sold off as a mystery.

Bernie,

It's not so much a devotion to H&L as it is a reading of the evidence, which amounts to hundreds (maybe even thousands) of little details. As just one little example from HarveyandLee.net....

LEE OSWALD: two scars from a gunshot wound

On October 27, 1957 Richard Cyr was standing about 15 yards from his barracks in Atsugi, Japan and heard a gunshot. Cyr and other marines ran into the building and found (LEE) Oswald sitting on his locker with a nickel-plated .22 derringer laying nearby on the floor. (LEE) Oswald said, "It seems as though I've shot myself." Oswald was taken to the sick bay for treatment and then taken to the U.S. Navy Hospital in nearby Yokosuku. A Navy surgeon closed the wound with stitches and allowed the .22 slug, which lay just below the surface on the back side of Oswald's upper left arm, to remain in his arm. A week later, on November 4, Dr. Greenlees made an incision on the back side of Oswald's arm, removed the .22 caliber slug, and closed the wound with stitches which were removed 10 days later. LEE Oswald had two incisions and now had two scars.

After (HARVEY) Oswald was killed by Jack Ruby on November 24, 1963, an autopsy was performed by Dr. Earl Rose of Dallas. Dr. Rose listed and described numerous small scars on Oswald's body, including "a pale, white, oblique 1/4 inch scar." But nowhere, in the lengthly and precise autopsy report, did Dr. Rose observe or report any scars on Oswald's left arm. Photographs were taken of Oswalds arms, but show no scars from a bullet wound.

After the autopsy, (HARVEY) Oswald was taken to the funeral home where he was embalmed and prepared for burial by mortician Paul Groody. Groody was subsequently interviewed by the Secret Service and asked if there were any scars on Oswald's arms and he (Groody) repeatedly said there were no scars on Oswald's upper left arm.

Can you explain why two scars from a six-year-old gunshot wound would be missed by both Rose and Groody?

Also, I read the page from the Mary Ferrell site about Ryder, but didn't see where the FBI claimed the ticket was from a different Oswald. Does that claim exist? If it does, I'll try to remember to bring it to JA's attention.

Jim I have no intention of going into teeth, gunshot wounds or tonsils... We've done that. I am responding to this particular issue you posted linking John's new article. Let's, for once, just stick to one thing at a time eh?

I never said that the "FBI claimed the ticket was from a different Oswald"...I'm simply claiming that it is no "mystery" as to how the FBI got to know of this tag written by Ryder in the first place. Your introduction to the article says it is.

It is YOU who is implying that it was possibly a different Oswald and that the FBI had prior knowledge of this event. They didn't. They were informed by an employee of WFAA-TV who passed on the anonymous tip to the DPD. No mystery at all. Why spoil a really good article by falsely implying a mystery when basic research shows there to be none. Because 'mystery' is the oil that keeps the whole H&L on the road. Without it there is no H&L.

[David Josephs]

Any idea what is up with the document Armstrong uses for Holmes T informant status and the two I presented on Feb 2?

Only a guess Bart... but I've combined two half page exhibits into one image for display purposes.

It seems obvious that page three of what you posted would comprise T-13 thru San Antonio T-1 and was simply pasted/copied/photoshopped onto the bottom half of page one for that image

Considering your version is all redacted and John's isn't, his putting them together on a copy machine on the Archives or sometime subsequent would be my guess...

Better yet, I'll ask him... His stories of his archive days are always fascinating.

DJ

[David Josephs]

A key question is, why did the FBI fabricate so many documents, as John Armstrong alleges?

I believe Armstrong's allegations are correct.

I don't believe any FBI employee had a hand in killing JFK. The cover-up is another matter. So why did FBI agents fabricate those documents? I believe Hoover didn't want any official conclusion other than that LHO killed JFK acting alone. No one in any position of power in the U.S. government wanted any other conclusion. I believe the plotters anticipated this unfolding of events; which tells me the plotters had an unerring take on D.C. power politics.

That narrows the field for me.

Jon...

In all the work with the Evidence I've done, the number of tricks and tactics within it designed to CYA in any direction and confuse the issue is impossible to ignore.

Even the Commissioners at Exec Session were amazed the FBI declared Ozzie the man, alone. Dulles, in his calculated way, couldn't understand the FBI's actions if it was or wasn't their asset..

His only job was to keep things on the right track.

Creating the evidence required was a long standing Hoover (and all of intelligence) tradition. Yet I do not agree that it was Hoover who decided anything but whose hand was forced - as his note below says

The mindset of 1960 remains the most difficult to adjust when pondering these questions. In that day and age what the gov't said was it... and the mass media backed them.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Today the same thing exists only it's buried in the mountain of noise instead of quietly acknowledged and hidden in the back rooms or secret filing cabinets

I doubt we can adequately appreciate it to see these actions in their context.

[Guest]

Any idea what is up with the document Armstrong uses for Holmes T informant status and the two I presented on Feb 2?

Only a guess Bart... but I've combined two half page exhibits into one image for display purposes.

It seems obvious that page three of what you posted would comprise T-13 thru San Antonio T-1 and was simply pasted/copied/photoshopped onto the bottom half of page one for that image

Considering your version is all redacted and John's isn't, his putting them together on a copy machine on the Archives or sometime subsequent would be my guess...

Better yet, I'll ask him... His stories of his archive days are always fascinating.

DJ

Thanks for getting back to me David, while you are at it I was wondering if you could ask John what the score is with the two Harry Holmes ID's for T-2 and T-10, both working at the same building and the same city.

I am aware that T stood for temporary but still I find it odd that even in the two docs I show in both instances Harry Dean Holmes is shown un-redacted.

Ta

[Jim Hargrove]

The whole implication, knowing how devoted to the H&L theory John and Jim are, is that somehow somebody in the FBI had prior knowledge of the gun shop saga, and of someone purporting to be LHO. It is sold as a "mystery" as to how the FBI could have come by this information yet the chain of evidence showing this hasn't been explained in the original article. That surprises me because other parts of the article are extremely well researched. Funny that the bit that shows exactly how the FBI came to know of this gun shop tag is left dangling in mid air and sold off as a mystery.

Bernie,

It's not so much a devotion to H&L as it is a reading of the evidence, which amounts to hundreds (maybe even thousands) of little details. As just one little example from HarveyandLee.net....

LEE OSWALD: two scars from a gunshot wound

On October 27, 1957 Richard Cyr was standing about 15 yards from his barracks in Atsugi, Japan and heard a gunshot. Cyr and other marines ran into the building and found (LEE) Oswald sitting on his locker with a nickel-plated .22 derringer laying nearby on the floor. (LEE) Oswald said, "It seems as though I've shot myself." Oswald was taken to the sick bay for treatment and then taken to the U.S. Navy Hospital in nearby Yokosuku. A Navy surgeon closed the wound with stitches and allowed the .22 slug, which lay just below the surface on the back side of Oswald's upper left arm, to remain in his arm. A week later, on November 4, Dr. Greenlees made an incision on the back side of Oswald's arm, removed the .22 caliber slug, and closed the wound with stitches which were removed 10 days later. LEE Oswald had two incisions and now had two scars.

After (HARVEY) Oswald was killed by Jack Ruby on November 24, 1963, an autopsy was performed by Dr. Earl Rose of Dallas. Dr. Rose listed and described numerous small scars on Oswald's body, including "a pale, white, oblique 1/4 inch scar." But nowhere, in the lengthly and precise autopsy report, did Dr. Rose observe or report any scars on Oswald's left arm. Photographs were taken of Oswalds arms, but show no scars from a bullet wound.

After the autopsy, (HARVEY) Oswald was taken to the funeral home where he was embalmed and prepared for burial by mortician Paul Groody. Groody was subsequently interviewed by the Secret Service and asked if there were any scars on Oswald's arms and he (Groody) repeatedly said there were no scars on Oswald's upper left arm.

Can you explain why two scars from a six-year-old gunshot wound would be missed by both Rose and Groody?

Also, I read the page from the Mary Ferrell site about Ryder, but didn't see where the FBI claimed the ticket was from a different Oswald. Does that claim exist? If it does, I'll try to remember to bring it to JA's attention.

Jim I have no intention of going into teeth, gunshot wounds or tonsils... We've done that. I am responding to this particular issue you posted linking John's new article. Let's, for once, just stick to one thing at a time eh?

I never said that the "FBI claimed the ticket was from a different Oswald"...I'm simply claiming that it is no "mystery" as to how the FBI got to know of this tag written by Ryder in the first place. Your introduction to the article says it is.

It is YOU who is implying that it was possibly a different Oswald and that the FBI had prior knowledge of this event. They didn't. They were informed by an employee of WFAA-TV who passed on the anonymous tip to the DPD. No mystery at all. Why spoil a really good article by falsely implying a mystery when basic research shows there to be none. Because 'mystery' is the oil that keeps the whole H&L on the road. Without it there is no H&L.

Ah... Bernie... you introduced the two Oswalds by saying above that John and I are "devoted to the "H&L theory." I was just pointing out why. Why bring it up if you don't care to discuss it?

Back on topic, I have never implied that the ticket was placed in Ryder's shop by an Oswald or anyone else. I have no idea how it got there. Here's what John Armstrong wrote about it:

There is little doubt that Dial Ryder had an undated repair tag on November 23. There is no doubt the repair tag was intended to show the Irving Sports Shop mounted a scope on Oswald's $12.78 rifle. There is no question that one or more anonymous callers led the Dallas Police, FBI, and the press to the Irving Sports Shop. The unanswered ques­tion is who, if someone other than Dial Ryder, created the tag on Ryder's workbench and who, if someone other than Dial Ryder, notified the Dallas Police, the FBI, and the press.

SUMMATION: The same day the FBI announced that Oswald purchased a mail-order rifle for $12.78 (without a scope), Ryder "found" an undated repair tag and three or more anonymous callers notified police that the scope on Oswald's rifle had been mounted at the Irving Sports Shop. Ryder told FBI Agent Horton and news reporters that he may have mounted the scope on Oswald's rifle. Six days later (11/29/63), after the FBI announced that Oswald purchased a rifle with a scope already mounted for $19.95, Ryder told the FBI and the Secret Service that he was sure that he had NOT mounted the scope. Whatever the truth surrounding the repair ticket, Ryder's admis­sion places him at the center of the controversy surrounding a $12.78 rifle, without a scope, allegedly purchased from Klein's.

Your post seem to suggest that everything has been explained about this incident, but I don't think that is the case. John also wrote this:

The owner of the Irving Sports Shop, Mr. Charles W. Greene, telephoned all of the Oswalds listed in the Dallas and Irving telephone directories in an attempt to locate the "Oswald" listed on repair ticket 18374, but was unsuccessful. Warren Commission Attorney Liebeler told Dial Ryder, "The FBI has at­tempted to find every Oswald in the whole Dallas and Fort Worth area and the surround­ing area and it has found many of them and it has questioned all of them, some of whom have moved out of Dallas and Fort Worth, as to whether or not they ever had any work done in that gunshop, and you should know that none of them ever did."

Remember that for nearly a week after the assassination, news media widely reported that the the FBI had analysed the handwriting on the order form for a $12.78 rifle, with scope, and determined it to be "Lee Harvey Oswald's."

[Jon G. Tidd]

I don't believe enough attention has been paid to anonymous telephone calls regarding [a] the Hidell PMO, and the Ryder scope ticket.

Those calls could have been made only by a person or persons having inside knowledge and a purpose of framing Oswald.

Am I to think these calls were initiated by some party not involved in a plot to kill JFK? I lean that way.

[Gene Kelly]

David:

I am intrigued by the selection of the Italian rifle as the incriminating weapon. And i am interested in whether you see any significance to this particular rifle (of all the rifles in the universe) being the one.

Early on, there are reports of three different rifles being the murder weapon after the assassination: (1) a British Enfield, (2) a German Mauser and (3) an Italian Mannlicher Carcano. All three are apparently in the TSBD, and each can be linked with various principals, from Frazier, to Shelley to Oswald. Some think the Carcano was planted because it was so cheap, or because it was readily available by mail order. Perhaps it is because it was difficult to trace its provenance (i.e. imported by imported by Crescent Firearms, shortened version, retrofitted and modified, several serial numbers etc.).

CIA had supplied Argentine Mausers to Castro for revolution: combined with Oswald's perceived association with Cuba and communism, the Mauser links Castro to Kennedy's murder. Perhaps opposing forces (e.g. FBI) switched the Mauser for a Carcano to detour an invasion of Cuba. However, I remain convinced that there is some deeper significance to the selection of this particular style and make.

Gene

[Bernie Laverick]

The whole implication, knowing how devoted to the H&L theory John and Jim are, is that somehow somebody in the FBI had prior knowledge of the gun shop saga, and of someone purporting to be LHO. It is sold as a "mystery" as to how the FBI could have come by this information yet the chain of evidence showing this hasn't been explained in the original article. That surprises me because other parts of the article are extremely well researched. Funny that the bit that shows exactly how the FBI came to know of this gun shop tag is left dangling in mid air and sold off as a mystery.

Bernie,

It's not so much a devotion to H&L as it is a reading of the evidence, which amounts to hundreds (maybe even thousands) of little details. As just one little example from HarveyandLee.net....

LEE OSWALD: two scars from a gunshot wound

On October 27, 1957 Richard Cyr was standing about 15 yards from his barracks in Atsugi, Japan and heard a gunshot. Cyr and other marines ran into the building and found (LEE) Oswald sitting on his locker with a nickel-plated .22 derringer laying nearby on the floor. (LEE) Oswald said, "It seems as though I've shot myself." Oswald was taken to the sick bay for treatment and then taken to the U.S. Navy Hospital in nearby Yokosuku. A Navy surgeon closed the wound with stitches and allowed the .22 slug, which lay just below the surface on the back side of Oswald's upper left arm, to remain in his arm. A week later, on November 4, Dr. Greenlees made an incision on the back side of Oswald's arm, removed the .22 caliber slug, and closed the wound with stitches which were removed 10 days later. LEE Oswald had two incisions and now had two scars.

After (HARVEY) Oswald was killed by Jack Ruby on November 24, 1963, an autopsy was performed by Dr. Earl Rose of Dallas. Dr. Rose listed and described numerous small scars on Oswald's body, including "a pale, white, oblique 1/4 inch scar." But nowhere, in the lengthly and precise autopsy report, did Dr. Rose observe or report any scars on Oswald's left arm. Photographs were taken of Oswalds arms, but show no scars from a bullet wound.

After the autopsy, (HARVEY) Oswald was taken to the funeral home where he was embalmed and prepared for burial by mortician Paul Groody. Groody was subsequently interviewed by the Secret Service and asked if there were any scars on Oswald's arms and he (Groody) repeatedly said there were no scars on Oswald's upper left arm.

Can you explain why two scars from a six-year-old gunshot wound would be missed by both Rose and Groody?

Also, I read the page from the Mary Ferrell site about Ryder, but didn't see where the FBI claimed the ticket was from a different Oswald. Does that claim exist? If it does, I'll try to remember to bring it to JA's attention.

Jim I have no intention of going into teeth, gunshot wounds or tonsils... We've done that. I am responding to this particular issue you posted linking John's new article. Let's, for once, just stick to one thing at a time eh?

I never said that the "FBI claimed the ticket was from a different Oswald"...I'm simply claiming that it is no "mystery" as to how the FBI got to know of this tag written by Ryder in the first place. Your introduction to the article says it is.

It is YOU who is implying that it was possibly a different Oswald and that the FBI had prior knowledge of this event. They didn't. They were informed by an employee of WFAA-TV who passed on the anonymous tip to the DPD. No mystery at all. Why spoil a really good article by falsely implying a mystery when basic research shows there to be none. Because 'mystery' is the oil that keeps the whole H&L on the road. Without it there is no H&L.

Ah... Bernie... you introduced the two Oswalds by saying above that John and I are "devoted to the "H&L theory." I was just pointing out why. Why bring it up if you don't care to discuss it?

Back on topic, I have never implied that the ticket was placed in Ryder's shop by an Oswald or anyone else. I have no idea how it got there. Here's what John Armstrong wrote about it:

There is little doubt that Dial Ryder had an undated repair tag on November 23. There is no doubt the repair tag was intended to show the Irving Sports Shop mounted a scope on Oswald's $12.78 rifle. There is no question that one or more anonymous callers led the Dallas Police, FBI, and the press to the Irving Sports Shop. The unanswered ques­tion is who, if someone other than Dial Ryder, created the tag on Ryder's workbench and who, if someone other than Dial Ryder, notified the Dallas Police, the FBI, and the press.

SUMMATION: The same day the FBI announced that Oswald purchased a mail-order rifle for $12.78 (without a scope), Ryder "found" an undated repair tag and three or more anonymous callers notified police that the scope on Oswald's rifle had been mounted at the Irving Sports Shop. Ryder told FBI Agent Horton and news reporters that he may have mounted the scope on Oswald's rifle. Six days later (11/29/63), after the FBI announced that Oswald purchased a rifle with a scope already mounted for $19.95, Ryder told the FBI and the Secret Service that he was sure that he had NOT mounted the scope. Whatever the truth surrounding the repair ticket, Ryder's admis­sion places him at the center of the controversy surrounding a $12.78 rifle, without a scope, allegedly purchased from Klein's.

Your post seem to suggest that everything has been explained about this incident, but I don't think that is the case. John also wrote this:

The owner of the Irving Sports Shop, Mr. Charles W. Greene, telephoned all of the Oswalds listed in the Dallas and Irving telephone directories in an attempt to locate the "Oswald" listed on repair ticket 18374, but was unsuccessful. Warren Commission Attorney Liebeler told Dial Ryder, "The FBI has at­tempted to find every Oswald in the whole Dallas and Fort Worth area and the surround­ing area and it has found many of them and it has questioned all of them, some of whom have moved out of Dallas and Fort Worth, as to whether or not they ever had any work done in that gunshop, and you should know that none of them ever did."

Remember that for nearly a week after the assassination, news media widely reported that the the FBI had analysed the handwriting on the order form for a $12.78 rifle, with scope, and determined it to be "Lee Harvey Oswald's."

"The unanswered ques­tion is who, if someone other than Dial Ryder, created the tag on Ryder's workbench and who, if someone other than Dial Ryder, notified the Dallas Police, the FBI, and the press."

But Ryder admitted that he was the one who wrote the tag. He confirmed that it was his writing. There is no "someone other" involved. We know he wrote the tag so he must have been the first person to have this information, obviously. He then admitted telling his wife before informing anyone else.

"three or more anonymous callers notified police that the scope on Oswald's rifle had been mounted at the Irving Sports Shop."

I could be wrong but I believed there was just the one call, a woman, so if you could show citations for that I'd appreciate it. Also I don't think that the shop was first mentioned, it was a vague location that contained several gun shops.

"Your post seem to suggest that everything has been explained about this incident, but I don't think that is the case."

See, this is where we all go round the mulberry bush again isn't it? We don't know the FULL story so any tiny doubts or miniscule anomalies can then be construed in any manner we wish to fit whatever pre-ordained conclusion we have drawn. I don't believe that the FBI (or any other sinister parties) had any prior knowledge of that tag: a tag for a gun that Oswald didn't use 'brought in' by someone who looked nothing like Oswald!

Let's assume it WAS the assassination weapon. Well then we'd have a story; and one that would have been part of the 'known' narrative. Conversely, let's suppose it wasn't Oswald's gun but it was brought in by someone identical to him. Likewise we have a mysterious story of someone possibly impersonating him. But you have neither! Ryder has neither!

The fact that you portrayed the tag as being "found" using inverted commas, strongly implies that you think there is another more sinister explanation. But you don't say what. I've also noticed that neither you or John have mentioned Harvey or Lee in this story, but refer to him as LHO. Whilst I find this as a progressive move I can't help feeling it is merely a tactical innovation. This portion of the article, at least, alludes to (by a nod and a wink and without mentioning names) the narrative the originators have spent huge parts of their lives promoting.

And finally...

"Remember that for nearly a week after the assassination, news media widely reported that the the FBI had analysed the handwriting on the order form for a $12.78 rifle, with scope, and determined it to be "Lee Harvey Oswald's.""

But this has nothing to do with the tag we are talking about! This refers to the order made to Kleins. Why would you mention handwriting recognition on a document we are not discussing to make your point? Ryder wrote the tag. It's his writing and he admitted to it! The fact that the FBI assumed it was LHO's handwriting on another document is another story... but it does serve as a nice distraction from the main point.

[Thomas Graves]

The whole implication, knowing how devoted to the H&L theory John and Jim are, is that somehow somebody in the FBI had prior knowledge of the gun shop saga, and of someone purporting to be LHO. It is sold as a "mystery" as to how the FBI could have come by this information yet the chain of evidence showing this hasn't been explained in the original article. That surprises me because other parts of the article are extremely well researched. Funny that the bit that shows exactly how the FBI came to know of this gun shop tag is left dangling in mid air and sold off as a mystery.

[...]

Jim I have no intention of going into teeth, gunshot wounds or tonsils... We've done that. I am responding to this particular issue you posted linking John's new article. Let's, for once, just stick to one thing at a time eh?

I never said that the "FBI claimed the ticket was from a different Oswald"...I'm simply claiming that it is no "mystery" as to how the FBI got to know of this tag written by Ryder in the first place. Your introduction to the article says it is.

It is YOU who is implying that it was possibly a different Oswald and that the FBI had prior knowledge of this event. They didn't. They were informed by an employee of WFAA-TV who passed on the anonymous tip to the DPD. No mystery at all. Why spoil a really good article by falsely implying a mystery when basic research shows there to be none. Because 'mystery' is the oil that keeps the whole H&L on the road. Without it there is no H&L.

[...]

"The unanswered ques­tion is who, if someone other than Dial Ryder, created the tag on Ryder's workbench and who, if someone other than Dial Ryder, notified the Dallas Police, the FBI, and the press." -- Hargrove

But Ryder admitted that he was the one who wrote the tag. He confirmed that it was his writing. There is no "someone other" involved. We know he wrote the tag so he must have been the first person to have this information, obviously. He then admitted telling his wife before informing anyone else. -- Laverick

"three or more anonymous callers notified police that the scope on Oswald's rifle had been mounted at the Irving Sports Shop." -- Hargrove

I could be wrong but I believed there was just the one call, a woman, so if you could show citations for that I'd appreciate it. Also I don't think that the shop was first mentioned, it was a vague location that contained several gun shops. -- Laverick

"Your post seem to suggest that everything has been explained about this incident, but I don't think that is the case." -- Laverick

See, this is where we all go round the mulberry bush again isn't it? We don't know the FULL story so any tiny doubts or miniscule anomalies can then be construed in any manner we wish to fit whatever pre-ordained conclusion we have drawn. I don't believe that the FBI (or any other sinister parties) had any prior knowledge of that tag: a tag for a gun that Oswald didn't use 'brought in' by someone who looked nothing like Oswald!

Let's assume it WAS the assassination weapon. Well then we'd have a story; and one that would have been part of the 'known' narrative. Conversely, let's suppose it wasn't Oswald's gun but it was brought in by someone identical to him. Likewise we have a mysterious story of someone possibly impersonating him. But you have neither! Ryder has neither!

The fact that you portrayed the tag as being "found" using inverted commas, strongly implies that you think there is another more sinister explanation. But you don't say what. I've also noticed that neither you or John have mentioned Harvey or Lee in this story, but refer to him as LHO. Whilst I find this as a progressive move I can't help feeling it is merely a tactical innovation. This portion of the article, at least, alludes to (by a nod and a wink and without mentioning names) the narrative the originators have spent huge parts of their lives promoting. -- Laverick

And finally...

"Remember that for nearly a week after the assassination, news media widely reported that the the FBI had analysed the handwriting on the order form for a $12.78 rifle, with scope, and determined it to be "Lee Harvey Oswald's."" -- Hargrove

But this has nothing to do with the tag we are talking about! This refers to the order made to Kleins. Why would you mention handwriting recognition on a document we are not discussing to make your point? Ryder wrote the tag. It's his writing and he admitted to it! The fact that the FBI assumed it was LHO's handwriting on another document is another story... but it does serve as a nice distraction from the main point. -- Laverick

[ emphasis added by T. Graves ]

Excellent posts (plural), Bernie!

As always!

--Tommy

Edited February 9, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Jim Hargrove]

For Bernie....

[My comments in red.]

"The unanswered question is who, if someone other than Dial Ryder, created the tag on Ryder's workbench and who, if someone other than Dial Ryder, notified the Dallas Police, the FBI, and the press."

But Ryder admitted that he was the one who wrote the tag. He confirmed that it was his writing. There is no "someone other" involved. We know he wrote the tag so he must have been the first person to have this information, obviously. He then admitted telling his wife before informing anyone else.

But the point is we don't know whether to believe some, none, or all of Ryder's story. My SUSPICION is that someone planning to incriminate Oswald put Ryder up to this whole thing, including working out the wording on the tag, and then made anonymous phone calls to get the whole Irving Sports Shop saga rolling. Six days after the assassination, when it was announced that the price of the rifle dramatically increased from $12.78 to $21.45, an added scope was no longer needed, and Ryder started backtracking. (The fact that Curry indicated right after the assassination that the order--in Oswald's handwriting!!--for the $12.78 rifle included a scope would hardly fool anyone familiar with Klein's actual pricing.)

"three or more anonymous callers notified police that the scope on Oswald's rifle had been mounted at the Irving Sports Shop."

I could be wrong but I believed there was just the one call, a woman, so if you could show citations for that I'd appreciate it. Also I don't think that the shop was first mentioned, it was a vague location that contained several gun shops.

From John's write-up:

“...an anonymous male caller telephonically advised the FBI that he learned from an unidentified sack boy at Wyatt's Supermarket, in Irving, TX., that Oswald had his rifle "sighted in" at the Irving Sports Shop. That same day DPD Det. Turner received a call from Mr. Ray Johns of channel 8 news. Mr. Johns told Turner that he had just received an anonymous call from a person who said that Oswald had his rifle "sighted in" on November 21 at a gunshop located at 111 or 212 Irving Boulevard.” I'll change the summary paragraph to say “two or more.” Thanks!

"Your post seem to suggest that everything has been explained about this incident, but I don't think that is the case."

See, this is where we all go round the mulberry bush again isn't it? We don't know the FULL story so any tiny doubts or miniscule anomalies can then be construed in any manner we wish to fit whatever pre-ordained conclusion we have drawn. I don't believe that the FBI (or any other sinister parties) had any prior knowledge of that tag: a tag for a gun that Oswald didn't use 'brought in' by someone who looked nothing like Oswald!

“Miniscule anomalies” such as at least two anonymous calls indicating Oswald had his rifle scope mounted at the Irving Sport Shop/the shop at 111 or 212 Irving Blvd??? Sure sounds like a setup to me. For what it's worth, Ryder said he told no one about the ticket the whole weekend.

From John's write-up: “That morning (11/23/63), only a couple of hours after Ryder arrived at the Sports Shop, FBI Agent Emory Horton arrived at Dial Ryder's house in Irving (circa 10:30 AM). Warren Commission attorney Liebeler asked Ryder, 'How did Horton know to come out to the sports shop?' Ryder replied, 'Actually, I don't know....'”

As prescient as the FBI might have been arriving at Ryder's home, isn't it remarkable that, at least according to Ryder, agents didn't bother to even collect the work ticket in question until a couple of weeks before Ryder testified at the Warren Commission?

Yet another “miniscule anomaly” is the timing of the whole affair. When publicly verifiable information from the FBI indicates the rifle cost $12.78 (the price of a rifle from Kleins without a scope) Dial Ryder is pretty sure he helped Oswald with the scope; when the publicly verifiable information from the FBI is changed to indicate the rifle cost a total of $21.45 (the total shipped price of a rifle with scope from Kleins) Ryder is pretty sure he didn't help Oswald with the scope, at least on the Italian rifle.

These are hardly miniscule anomalies.

Let's assume it WAS the assassination weapon. Well then we'd have a story; and one that would have been part of the 'known' narrative. Conversely, let's suppose it wasn't Oswald's gun but it was brought in by someone identical to him. Likewise we have a mysterious story of someone possibly impersonating him. But you have neither! Ryder has neither!

The fact that you portrayed the tag as being "found" using inverted commas, strongly implies that you think there is another more sinister explanation. But you don't say what. I've also noticed that neither you or John have mentioned Harvey or Lee in this story, but refer to him as LHO. Whilst I find this as a progressive move I can't help feeling it is merely a tactical innovation. This portion of the article, at least, alludes to (by a nod and a wink and without mentioning names) the narrative the originators have spent huge parts of their lives promoting.

I dunno. It often seems to me that people on forums like this have far more time to devote to this stuff than I do, but at any rate, there you go again, gently mocking the “Harvey and Lee” scenario and then complaining that I've gone off topic when I offer facts to back it up.

But since you again bring it up…. People interested in finding out for themselves about “Harvey and Lee” can get it straight from the source at this address:

HarveyandLee.net

And finally...

"Remember that for nearly a week after the assassination, news media widely reported that the the FBI had analysed the handwriting on the order form for a $12.78 rifle, with scope, and determined it to be "Lee Harvey Oswald's.""

But this has nothing to do with the tag we are talking about! This refers to the order made to Kleins. Why would you mention handwriting recognition on a document we are not discussing to make your point? Ryder wrote the tag. It's his writing and he admitted to it! The fact that the FBI assumed it was LHO's handwriting on another document is another story... but it does serve as a nice distraction from the main point.

But rather than a distraction, the $12.78 vs. $21.45 rifle may well have EVERYTHING to do with the Dial Ryder story, as explained above, unless, of course, you believe we're looking at only "miniscule anomalies" here.

Interesting discussion, Bernie.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Jim Hargrove

[Bernie Laverick]

For Bernie....

[My comments in red.]

(Bernie's replies in blue)

(The bold font represents quotes from a previous post by Jim)

"The unanswered question is who, if someone other than Dial Ryder, created the tag on Ryder's workbench and who, if someone other than Dial Ryder, notified the Dallas Police, the FBI, and the press."

But Ryder admitted that he was the one who wrote the tag. He confirmed that it was his writing. There is no "someone other" involved. We know he wrote the tag so he must have been the first person to have this information, obviously. He then admitted telling his wife before informing anyone else.

But the point is we don't know whether to believe some, none, or all of Ryder's story. My SUSPICION is that someone planning to incriminate Oswald put Ryder up to this whole thing, including working out the wording on the tag, and then made anonymous phone calls to get the whole Irving Sports Shop saga rolling. Six days after the assassination, when it was announced that the price of the rifle dramatically increased from $12.78 to $21.45, an added scope was no longer needed, and Ryder started backtracking. (The fact that Curry indicated right after the assassination that the order--in Oswald's handwriting!!--for the $12.78 rifle included a scope would hardly fool anyone familiar with Klein's actual pricing.)

But Jim your "suspicion" is consistent with everything else you believe about this case. Your on-going belief in H&L keeps on fuelling such suspicions until it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy. As such, just like in 17th c Salem - you see witches everywhere! ("But how do you know she is a witch?" "Because she looks like one!"...Monty Python - Holy Grail)

Now we have to have Ryder involved in fabricating evidence in the assassination of the President and hopefully keeping quiet about it. What became of Ryder? (Look, if we learn he committed suicide by shooting himself in the head three times...whilst not proof of anything, would add a lot of petrol to your 'fire'. But without that you have nothing but a burned out spark).

"three or more anonymous callers notified police that the scope on Oswald's rifle had been mounted at the Irving Sports Shop."

I could be wrong but I believed there was just the one call, a woman, so if you could show citations for that I'd appreciate it. Also I don't think that the shop was first mentioned, it was a vague location that contained several gun shops.

From John's write-up:

“...an anonymous male caller telephonically advised the FBI that he learned from an unidentified sack boy at Wyatt's Supermarket, in Irving, TX., that Oswald had his rifle "sighted in" at the Irving Sports Shop. That same day DPD Det. Turner received a call from Mr. Ray Johns of channel 8 news. Mr. Johns told Turner that he had just received an anonymous call from a person who said that Oswald had his rifle "sighted in" on November 21 at a gunshop located at 111 or 212 Irving Boulevard.” I'll change the summary paragraph to say “two or more.” Thanks!

Well "two or more" anonymous callers doesn't really do your "suspicion" much good, does it? I mean, how many anonymous people are you saying knew about this discarded plot to frame Oswald with planted 'evidence' at an Irving gun shop? Even if your "suspicion" is correct it would still only require ONE source for the anonymous calls. Either it was Ryder, who knew all the details pertaining to this tag because he admitted he wrote it, or someone as yet unknown, and without leaving any traceable evidence other than a suspicion (based on your conclusions drawn from other aspects of the case) that such a person probably existed, put Ryder up to doing it. Maybe one day Ryder will come clean, confess to being made to write the tag, give names, dates and times etc... Of course that would seriously compromise all those who don't believe in H&L. We would be left scratching our heads! I'm not holding my breath.

"Your post seem to suggest that everything has been explained about this incident, but I don't think that is the case."

See, this is where we all go round the mulberry bush again isn't it? We don't know the FULL story so any tiny doubts or miniscule anomalies can then be construed in any manner we wish to fit whatever pre-ordained conclusion we have drawn. I don't believe that the FBI (or any other sinister parties) had any prior knowledge of that tag: a tag for a gun that Oswald didn't use 'brought in' by someone who looked nothing like Oswald!

“Miniscule anomalies” such as at least two anonymous calls indicating Oswald had his rifle scope mounted at the Irving Sport Shop/the shop at 111 or 212 Irving Blvd??? Sure sounds like a setup to me. For what it's worth, Ryder said he told no one about the ticket the whole weekend.

Not true Jim, he told his wife. Going on about multiple anonymous callers as I explained above really damages your "suspicion". Both yours and my scenarios necessitate only ONE caller. My caller is KNOWN to have had the details at his disposal because he said he wrote it. Your man is nothing more than a suspicion based on other 'suspicious' probabilities you have drawn from other areas in this case.

From John's write-up: “That morning (11/23/63), only a couple of hours after Ryder arrived at the Sports Shop, FBI Agent Emory Horton arrived at Dial Ryder's house in Irving (circa 10:30 AM). Warren Commission attorney Liebeler asked Ryder, 'How did Horton know to come out to the sports shop?' Ryder replied, 'Actually, I don't know....'”

As prescient as the FBI might have been arriving at Ryder's home, isn't it remarkable that, at least according to Ryder, agents didn't bother to even collect the work ticket in question until a couple of weeks before Ryder testified at the Warren Commission?

Ok, rather than waffle or simply ignore this piece of the story can you give me a bit more time to go through it again...? I can't remember all the details. I'll respond to it either way regardless of what I come up with.

Yet another “miniscule anomaly” is the timing of the whole affair. When publicly verifiable information from the FBI indicates the rifle cost $12.78 (the price of a rifle from Kleins without a scope) Dial Ryder is pretty sure he helped Oswald with the scope; when the publicly verifiable information from the FBI is changed to indicate the rifle cost a total of $21.45 (the total shipped price of a rifle with scope from Kleins) Ryder is pretty sure he didn't help Oswald with the scope, at least on the Italian rifle.

He confirmed that it was definitely NOT the assassination weapon he worked on. He was adamant about that. By saying it wasn't Oswald's rifle, was he trying to extract himself from the imposition he had been placed in? He must have known, either from the minute he was "put up" to writing this tag, or the minute he heard of LHO on the news, that he was probably now going to be of interest to the authorities. I wonder what this person who put Ryder up to it told him to say when he was inevitably questioned by the FBI? Had the plotters not rejected this piece of framing then Ryder would have been the pivot on which the whole thing hung on. If he held firm, didn't buckle, and stuck to the story he was "put up" to and now a part of, then the plots and conspiracies of both H&L and JFK's murder will remain unanswered. Hell of a risk wouldn't you think?

These are hardly miniscule anomalies.

Let's assume it WAS the assassination weapon. Well then we'd have a story; and one that would have been part of the 'known' narrative. Conversely, let's suppose it wasn't Oswald's gun but it was brought in by someone identical to him. Likewise we have a mysterious story of someone possibly impersonating him. But you have neither! Ryder has neither!

The fact that you portrayed the tag as being "found" using inverted commas, strongly implies that you think there is another more sinister explanation. But you don't say what. I've also noticed that neither you or John have mentioned Harvey or Lee in this story, but refer to him as LHO. Whilst I find this as a progressive move I can't help feeling it is merely a tactical innovation. This portion of the article, at least, alludes to (by a nod and a wink and without mentioning names) the narrative the originators have spent huge parts of their lives promoting.

I dunno. It often seems to me that people on forums like this have far more time to devote to this stuff than I do, but at any rate, there you go again, gently mocking the “Harvey and Lee” scenario and then complaining that I've gone off topic when I offer facts to back it up.

I can assure you that you will have spent considerably more time on "this stuff" than I ever had. The gentle mocking was actually a recognition that, this time at least, there has been a different style to the research presented. 99% or more of what you or John normally contribute relates directly to the promotion of H&L. I genuinely think that it's progress towards being able to discuss these things rationally if we all call LHO by the same name.

But since you again bring it up…. People interested in finding out for themselves about “Harvey and Lee” can get it straight from the source at this address:

HarveyandLee.net

And finally...

"Remember that for nearly a week after the assassination, news media widely reported that the the FBI had analysed the handwriting on the order form for a $12.78 rifle, with scope, and determined it to be "Lee Harvey Oswald's.""

But this has nothing to do with the tag we are talking about! This refers to the order made to Kleins. Why would you mention handwriting recognition on a document we are not discussing to make your point? Ryder wrote the tag. It's his writing and he admitted to it! The fact that the FBI assumed it was LHO's handwriting on another document is another story... but it does serve as a nice distraction from the main point.

But rather than a distraction, the $12.78 vs. $21.45 rifle may well have EVERYTHING to do with the Dial Ryder story, as explained above, unless, of course, you believe we're looking at only "miniscule anomalies" here.

May haves, beliefs, suspicions, probabilities, likelihoods... It's great to speculate; our imaginations can create just about whatever we want. Sometimes a speculation can be the catalyst to try another avenue of research, think it over in a new way and find new solutions. I have nothing against people speculating. And to your credit you openly admit you have zero proof for any of this; you actually wrote the word "SUSPICION" in capitals, to highlight that,that really, is all you have.

Interesting discussion, Bernie.

#typo edit# Bernie

Edited February 9, 2016 by Bernie Laverick

[David Josephs]

Any idea what is up with the document Armstrong uses for Holmes T informant status and the two I presented on Feb 2?

John tells me the page is as he saw it and copied it at the Archives.

Strange that page 3 would be on page 1... unless the Archives didn't have page 2 available....

DJ

[Jim Hargrove]

Since the Dial Ryder incident has taken up much of the debate here, it might be more interesting than arguing on and on with Bernie to post the actual Ryder write-up from John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee. Here 'tis, from two separate sections of the book….

Dial Duwayne Ryder

The Italian rifle found by Dallas Police was equipped with a 4-power Japanese

scope, yet the FBI announced on Saturday that Oswald had purchased a rifle from Klein's with-

out a scope. During the following week, the media continued to report that Oswald paid

$12.78 for the rifle, while a gunsmith in nearby Irving, Texas came forward and an-

nounced that he may have mounted a scope on Oswald's rifle.

On Saturday (November 23), 25-year-old gunsmith Dial Duwayne Ryder alleg-

edly found repair tag #18374 for a customer named "Oswald" on his workbench.^.73 The

undated repair tag, written in pencil, read "drill and tap $4.50" and "bore sight $1.50"

but contained no additional information. ⁷⁴

NOTE: Ryder told the Warren Commission it was not possible to date the repair tag,

because the tags were not kept or used in sequential order. Ryder said, " .... .It (the work

on the rifle) was done sometime between the 1st and 15th of November. .... Because the work

was done while the Greeners or the Woody Francis Greeners, the owners of the sport shop,

were on vacation. "⁷⁵ In other words, there were no witnesses to corroborate Ryder's story

of finding the repair tag.

On Sunday, November 24, Mr. Ray Johns of channel 8 news received an anony-

mous telephone call. The caller said that Oswald had his rifle sighted in on November

21 at a gunshop located at 111 or 212 Irving Boulevard. Johns then telephoned Detec-

tive Fay M. Turner at Dallas Police Headquarters and told him about the telephone call

he had received from the anonymous caller. This was the second call Detective Turner

received concerning the alleged assassination rifle:

1) a caller said the rifle came from Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago

2) a caller said a man named "Oswald" had his rifle sighted at a gunshop on Irv-

ing Boulevard in Irving.

Turner checked the criss-cross directory and the phone book before he located

the Irving Sports Shop at 221 East Irving Blvd. in Irving. He contacted Woody Greener,

the owner of the shop, and asked if he would check his files and records for the name

"Oswald" and call him back if he found out anything.⁷⁶

On Monday, November 25, the Dallas Morning News published an article titled

"Mail Order Firm Tells Data on 6.5 MM Rifle." The article stated, "The FBI an-

nounced Saturday (November 23) that the 6.5 mm Italian military rifle had been pur-

chased by 'A. Hidell' for $12.78 and delivered to a Dallas post office box." ^7763-36

NOTE: The FBI allegedly learned from the microfilm that Klein's shipped a rifle to "A.

Hidell" at PO Box 2915 in Dallas. But the Klein's order form clearly showed that he

paid $21.45 for the rifle, scope, and postage-NOT $12.78. ^63-35 If the FBI had actually

found "A. Hidell's" order on the Klein's microfilm they would have made such a stupid

mistake.

That morning FBI Agent Emory Horton arrived at Dial Ryder's house in Irv-

ing at 10:30 am. Commission attorney Liebeler asked, "How did Horton know to come

out to the sports shop?" Ryder replied, "Actually, I don't know .... .I told him I had a ticket

with the name Oswald, no date, no address, just for drilling and tapping and

boresighting--no address, or name; he didn't say he'd like to see the ticket ..... we went

up to the Irving Sports Shop and I opened it up and got the ticket and showed him."⁷⁸

Liebeler asked, "Did you give the tag to Mr. Horton?" Ryder replied, "No; he told us

to hold on to it, keep it and they would probably get it later on and they did."⁷⁹

Ryder told agent Horton there was no record of selling mounts for the scope and

this indicated to him that the customer (allegedly Oswald) brought the scope and mounts

with his gun. Ryder said the only work he would have performed was the labor to drill,

tap, and bore sight the rifle.

When shown a photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald, Ryder said that he associated

Oswald's picture with that of an individual who brought in an Argentine made rifle about

two weeks ago and had a scope attached to the gun.⁸⁰ But Ryder explained that an Ar-

gentine rifle has a different bolt assembly than did the gun found on the 6th floor of the

TSBD. The FBI neither asked Ryder for the name and address of the man who brought in the

Argentine rifle, nor did they review the shop's repair tickets, nor did they make any attempt to learn

if the individual ever existed.

NOTE: The owner of the Irving Sports Shop, Mr. Charles W Greene, telephoned all of

the Oswalds listed in the Dallas and Irving telephone directories in an attempt to locate

the "Oswald" listed on repair ticket 18374, but was unsuccessful. ⁸¹

On Thursday, November 28 (Thanksgiving day), Dallas Times-Herald reporter

Hunter Schmidt Jr. received a tip that a man named "Ryder" had mounted a gunsight

for Oswald. Warren Commission attorney Liebeler asked Hunter, "Where did you get

Ryder's name in the first place; do you know? Hunter replied, "We heard of it, I think

it was around the police station somewhere. I don't remember where that exact tip came

from. We heard that a gunsight had been mounted by a man named Ryder and they

thought at first it was Garland.⁸² One of our boys covering this angle of the assassina-

tion called in from down there that a Ryder was supposed to have mounted a scope on

a rifle for a customer named Oswald, so I started checking from there, and like I said

yesterday, I thought at first it was Garland and I had to do it by a process of elimina-

tion."⁸³

Hunter said that he spoke with Dial Ryder by telephone at his home in Irving,

Texas on November 28 at approximately 7:30 am for 15 minutes. Hunter claimed that

Ryder gave him the information that subsequently appeared in the Dallas Times-Her-

ald article.

Warren Commission attorney Liebeler asked Dial Ryder, "Do you recall being

interviewed by a reporter from a Dallas newspaper?" Ryder replied, "... early that

morning (Thanksgiving day) the telephone rang--I would say roughly 7:30 or 8, some-

thing like that--and I answered the phone and a guy introduced himself and I told him

I didn't have any comment and hung up ..... and later on that day, CBS television came

out and they were wanting a blownup deal on it to put on television ..... The CBS boys

said that they got it off of the Associated Press wires or over the AP. "⁸⁴

NOTE: News reporter Hunter Schmidt insisted that he spoke with Dial Ryder at 7:30

am on Thanksgiving morning. Dial Ryder insisted that he declined to comment and hung

up the phone at 7:30am, and then took the phone off the hook for the rest of the morn-

mg.

Someone was lying, but the Warren Commission did not appear too eager to resolve the

matter. Both men agreed to take a polygraph test to settle the matter, but the Commission

never arranged for the tests.

Thanksgiving evening a front-page story appeared in Dallas Times-Herald

titled "Oswald Gun Sight Mounted in Irving." The article stated, "An Irving gunsmith

Thursday told the Times-Herald he mounted and adjusted a telescopic sight for a cus-

tomer investigators believe was Lee Harvey Oswald. Gunsmith Dial D. Ryder of 2028

Harvard in Irving said he attached the telescope and "bore-sighted" a foreign-made rifle

for a customer named Oswald about a month ago."

Warren Commission Attorney Liebeler told Dial Ryder, "The FBI has at-

tempted to find every Oswald in the whole Dallas and Fort Worth area and the surround-

ing area and it has found many of them and it has questioned all of them, some of whom

have moved out of Dallas and Fort Worth, as to whether or not they ever had any work

done in that guns hop, and you should know that none of them ever did, and you should

also know, and I think you probably do by now, that Lee Oswald could not have had any

scope mounted on the rifle that he used to assassinate the President in your shop, and

in fact, I don't think you claim you did mount that particular scope?"

Ryder said, "On this Italian rifle--I never worked on them. I seen them but as

far as doing any physical work, I haven't done none even to this date, I haven't worked

on any of them .... l am positive on that, very positive."

[Above from Harvey and Lee, pp. 458-460]

[below from Harvey and Lee, pp. 753-755]

Irving Sports Shop

The Irving Sports Shop at 221 East Irving Boulevard was owned by Charles

Woodrow Greener, a gun enthusiast, hunter, and sportsman. Twenty-five-year-old Dial

Duwayne Ryder worked for Greener for six years and by 1963 held the position of

Service Manager.

The day after the assassination (Saturday, November 23) Ryder began cleaning

off his workbench prior to closing and found repair tag #18374. The undated tag indi-

cated that Ryder did work on a rifle for a customer named "Oswald." The tag read,

"drill and tap $4.50 ..... bore sight $1.50," but contained no additional information an-

was written in pencil. ⁶⁰

The following day Mr. Ray Johns of channel 8 news received an anonymous

telephone call from a man who said that Oswald had his rifle sighted-in on Thursday,

November 21, at a gun shop at 111 or 212 Irving Boulevard. Johns relayed the informa-

tion to Detective Fay M. Turner at Dallas Police Headquarters.

NOTE: Within 48 hours of the assassination Turner received tips from two anonymous

sources about the assassination rifle: 1) it came from Klein s Sporting Goods in Chicago

and 2) a man named "Oswald" had his rifle sighted at a gun shop in on Irving Boule-

vard in Irving, Texas.

Turner checked the phone directory and located the Irving Sports Shop at 221

East Irving Blvd. He then contacted Woody Greener and asked him to check his files

and records for the name "Oswald" and call him back if he found out anything.⁶¹

On November 25 (Monday) FBI Agent Emory Horton arrived at Dial Ryder's

house in Irving at 10:30 am. Ryder told the Warren Commission that he did not tell

Horton about the repair ticket until after Horton arrived at his house. Ryder said, "Oh, I

told him I had a ticket with the name Oswald, no date, no address, just for drilling and

tapping and boresighting-no address, or name; he didn't say he'd like to see the ticket ..... "

Ryder explained, "We went up to the Irving Sports Shop and I opened it up and got the

ticket and showed him."⁶²

Ryder told SA Horton there was no record of a sale of scope mounts to the

customer. Therefore, this customer must have furnished both the scope and the mounts

while Ryder performed the labor to drill, tap, and bore sight the gun. But Ryder told

Horton he had no recollection of installing a side mounted scope (a very unusual way to

mount a scope) on the type of gun used to assassinate President Kennedy. Ryder told

the Warren Commission, "On this Italian rifle-I never worked on them. I seen them

but as far as doing any physical work, I haven't done none even to this date, I haven't

worked on any of them.... l am positive on that, very positive."

SA Horton showed Ryder a photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald, who said that

he associated Oswald's picture with that of an individual who brought in an Argentine-

made rifle about two weeks earlier. Ryder attached a scope on the rifle but said the

Argentine rifle had a different bolt assembly than the gun used to assassinate President

Kennedy. ⁶³The FBI failed to ask Ryder for the mans name and address, failed to review

repair tickets, and made no attempt to locate the man or the Argentine rifle.

Commission attorney Wesley Liebeler asked, "How did Horton know to come

out to the sports shop?" Ryder replied, "Actually, I don't know." Liebeler asked, "Did

you give the tag to Mr. Horton?" Ryder replied, "No; he told us to hold on to it, keep it

and they would probably get it later on and they did."⁶⁴

Liebeler asked Ryder if it was possible to date the repair tag. Ryder said the

repair tags were not kept or used in sequential order so the number on the tag was

useless in determining the date. Ryder explained, "Mr. Greener keeps a pretty good

watch on my work to make sure I'm getting it out on time and he will check fairly close

every day, every other day, and check to make sure I'm getting the work out, that old

work isn't laying there to be done. He's pretty sharp on remembering names and he

would have remembered that quite surely." Ryder later said, " .... .it (the work on the

rifle) was done sometime between the 1st and 15th of November ..... Because the work

was done while the Greeners or the Woody Francis Greeners, the owners of the sport

shop, were on vacation. "⁶⁵

On the morning of November 28 (Thursday--Thanksgiving Day) Dallas Times-

Herald reporter Hunter Schmidt, Jr. received a tip that a man named "Ryder" had

mounted a gunsight on a rifle for Oswald. Hunter was asked by Liebeler, "Where did

you get Ryder's name in the first place; do you know? Hunter replied, "We heard of it,

I think it was around the police station somewhere. I don't remember where that exact

tip came from. We heard that a gunsight had been mounted by a man named Ryder,

and they thought at first it was Garland.⁶⁶ One of our boys covering this angle of the

assassination called in from down there that a Ryder was supposed to have mounted a

scope on a rifle for a customer named Oswald, so I started checking from there, and

like I said yesterday, I thought at first it was Garland and I had to do it by a process of

elimination. "⁶⁷

Schmidt claimed that he telephoned Dial Ryder at his home in Irving at 7:30

am (Thanksgiving morning) and spoke with him for 15 minutes. Hunter claimed that

Ryder provided him with the information that appeared in the newspaper article on

November 28, 1963 in the Dallas Times-Herald.

NOTE: If Hunter Schmidt received a "tip" from someone at the Police Station, it had

to have been well before 7:30am. Hunter needed time to telephone and locate a "Ryder"

through the telephone directories prior to calling him.

Liebeler asked Dial Ryder, "Do you recall being interviewed by a reporter

from a Dallas newspaper?" Ryder replied, " ..... early that morning (Thanksgiving Day)

the telephone rang-I would say roughly 7:30 or 8, something like that--and I answered

the phone and a guy introduced himself and I told him I didn't have any comment and

hung up ..... and later on that day, CBS television came out and they were wanting a

blown up deal on it to put on television ..... The CBS boys said that they got it off of the

Associated Press wires or over the AP."⁶⁸

NOTE: Hunter Schmidt said that he spoke with Dial Ryder on the telephone at 7:30 am

on Thanksgiving morning. Ryder insisted that he said nothing to Schmidt and hung up

the phone at 7:30 am. Ryder said that he subsequently took the phone off the hook for the

rest of the morning.

Someone was lying, but the Warren Commission did not appear too eager to resolve the

matter. Both men agreed to take a polygraph test to settle the matter, but the Commission

never arranged for the tests. If CBS got information from the Associated Press about

Dial Ryder, then the question is where did the Associated Press get the information?

On Thursday afternoon (Thanksgiving Day) Dallas Detective Fay Turner spoke

with Woody Greener about the repair tag. Turner said, "The best they (Greener &

754 Ryder) could figure out, his-this work probably came in around November the 4th or

November the 8th of 1963."⁶⁹November 8 was a day or two after Oswald visited the Furni-

ture Mart in Irving looking for rifle parts.

On Thursday evening (Thanksgiving Day) a front-page story appeared in the

Dallas Times Herald titled, "Oswald Gun Sight Mounted in Irving." The article stated,

"An Irving gunsmith Thursday told the Times-Herald he mounted and adjusted a

telescopic sight for a customer investigators believe was Lee Harvey Oswald. Gun-

smith Dial D. Ryder of 2028 Harvard in Irving said he attached the telescope and 'bore

sighted' a foreign-made rifle for a customer named Oswald about a month ago."

On November 28 CBS News finally interviewed Dial Ryder:

Q: "You have attached a lot of scopes, telescopic sights recently. How would

you mount a scope on a gun like that?"

Ryder: "Well, actually there is really one way to mount it on there. It would be

with a side mount, and I don't recall putting a side mount on any bolt

action that I've worked on."

Q: "You were shown pictures by the FBI of the gun they found?"

Ryder: "Yes, sir."

Q: "And that was a side-mounted telescopic sight?"

Ryder: "It sure was."

Q: "And you don't remember mounting any side mounts?"

Ryder: "No, sir, I sure don't. Not on special or a bolt-action gun, I don't."⁷⁰

On December 1 Secret Service agent Elmer W. Moore telephoned Dial Ryder

at his home. Ryder told Moore the newspaper story as reported was in error and that he

was satisfied that he had not done any work for Lee Harvey Oswald. He also said that

he examined a Carcano 6.5 mm rifle the day before and was certain that he never, at

any time, did any work on such a rifle.

Ryder told agent Moore that on Friday (November 29) he was interviewed by

a woman who said she was from the W hite House Press. She told Ryder that the rifle

used by Oswald was sold by Klein's Sporting Goods of Chicago, with a scope already

mounted.⁷¹ After the media was told that the rifle ordered by Oswald from Klein's

Sporting Goods came with a 4-power scope already attached, the importance of Dial

Ryder's story faded.

NOTE: Following the assassination the owner of the Irving Sports Shop, Mr. Charles

W Greener, telephoned all of the Oswalds listed in the Dallas and Irving directories in

an attempt to locate the "Oswald" listrd on repair ticket 18374, but was unsuccessful.⁷²

Commission Attorney Liebeler told Ryder, "The FBI has attempted to find

every Oswald in the whole Dallas and Fort Worth area and the surrounding area and it

has found many of them and it has questioned all of them, some of whom have moved

out of Dallas and Fort Worth, as to whether or not they ever had any work done in that

gun shop, and you should know that none of them ever did, and you should also know,

and I think you probably do by now, that Lee Oswald could not have had any scope

mounted on the rifle that he used to assassinate the President in your shop, and in fact,

I don't think you claim you did mount that particular scope?"

Summary of the repair tag

An undated repair tag was found at the Irving Sports Shop the day after the

assassination and was published in the Warren Volumes (Greener Ex. No 1). The re-

pair tag was apparently written by Dial Ryder and shows that a scope was mounted and

a rifle bore-sighted for a customer named Oswald. There is no doubt that one or more

anonymous callers led the Dallas Police, FBI, and the press to Dial Ryder and the

Irving Sports Shop. The unanswered questions are: Was a rifle brought the rifle to the

Irving Sports Shop and if so by whom? W ho notified the Dallas Police, FBI, and the AP that

work had been done on Oswald's rifle at the Irving Sports Shop?

The problem for the FBI and Warren Commission was not only the issue of a

repair tag, but the allegation that Oswald drove to the Irving Sports shop in the middle

of the week. This was yet another indication that someone was impersonating Oswald. The

FBI, aware that Oswald could not be in two places at the same time, looked for ways to

deal with the problem. On June 19, 1964 SAC Gordon Shanklin (Dallas FBI office)

wrote a memo which stated:

"Inspector J. R. Malley noted, 'they (Whitworth and Hunter) are the only two

who have placed Oswald with going to the gun shop where the tag shows up in

Oswald's name.' Mr Malley said they are trying to get away from the possibility

that Oswald had actually had any work done in the work shop.''

--Harvey and Lee, pp. 753-755

Posted with permission of John Armstrong

[Bernie Laverick]

The unanswered anomaly not answered in above exchange with Jim... "From John's write-up: “That morning (11/23/63), only a couple of hours after Ryder arrived at the Sports Shop, FBI Agent Emory Horton arrived at Dial Ryder's house in Irving (circa 10:30 AM). Warren Commission attorney Liebeler asked Ryder, 'How did Horton know to come out to the sports shop?' Ryder replied, 'Actually, I don't know....'”

I still haven't had time to read up on that section as promised. It jarred with me though to be honest. I couldn't myself understand how he, or anyone else, could have been onto it so quick.

Then I read your follow up post and you provide the answer..."On November 25 (Monday) FBI Agent Emory Horton arrived at Dial Ryder's house in Irving at 10:30 am."

So Ryder being quoted as not understanding how Horton came by his name is disingenuous isn't it? By implication we are led to believe it is suspicious that the FBI could be on the ball so quick. Horton's visit came after an anonymous caller made at least two calls to the media and the FBI. I'm sure the timeline being stated as 23/11 was an honest mistake. You guys are quite lucky with these mistakes though...When I make a mistake I pay a price, but for some, mistakes just seem to strengthen their argument.