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Dorothy Kilgallen


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Guest Tom Scully

I didn't enjoy reading this, but it should be noted here, and hopefully, discussed. It does serve as an explanation for Dorothy's "Ruby interview notes", never turning up:

(Jon H. Tonahill thread: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=3058 )

http://books.google.com/books?um=1&q=b...nG=Search+Books

Jack Ruby‎ - Page 72

by Garry Wills, Ovid Demaris

....Though he had been ordered not to get in touch with newsmen, he was allowed to

telephone members of his family and certain approved friends; he managed to call Tony Zoppi of the Morning News by catching him at a restaurant number. The chat was a lengthy

one, the only extensive interview Jack had with a newsman after his arrest.

(Conspiratorialists of the wilder variety believe that Dorothy Kilgallen had a private interview, one that caused her death. This tete-a-tete never took place: she leaned over the rail and talked to Jack in the open courtroom during a break in the proceedings. Lawyer Joe Tonahill, who hoped to collaborate with Miss Kilgallen on a book, arranged the brief exchange, and was present at it. ...

http://books.google.com/books?id=b55ZAAAAM...iew.&pgis=1

Kilgallen‎ - Page 369

by Lee Israel - Biography & Autobiography - 1979 - 485 pages

During one of her (Kilgallen’s) visits - sometime in March, before the verdict – she prevailed upon Joe Tonahill to make arrangements through Judge Brown for a private interview with Jack Ruby.

Brown, awestruck by Dorothy, acceded readily to Tonahill’s request. The meeting room in the jailhouse was bugged, and Tonahill suspected that Brown’s chambers were as well. Brown and Tonahill chose a small office off the courtroom behind the judge’s bench. They asked Ruby’s ubiquitous flank of four sheriff’s guards to consent to remain outside the room.

Dorothy was standing by the room during a noon recess. Ruby appeared with Tonahill. The three entered the room and closed the door. The defendant and Dorothy stood facing each other, spoke of their mutual friend, and indicated that they wanted to be left alone. Tonahill withdrew. They were together privately for about eight minutes, in what may have been the only safe house Ruby had occupied since his arrest.

Dorothy would mention the fact of the interview to close friends, but never the substance. Not once, in her prolific published writings, did she so much as refer to the private interview. Whatever notes she took during her time alone with Jack Ruby in the small office off the judge’s bench were included in a file she began to assemble on the assassination of John F. Kennedy....

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Before I wrote this, I read John Simkin's Spartacus thread on Dorothy Kilgallen to make sure that it wasn't already mentioned. I do know that there are quite a few Warren Commission documents that reveal the Commission was very upset about how Kilgallen obtained the information she did, to the point that there were interviews with people who transcribed the Warren Commission interviews asking them if they had leaked material, I am mentioning this irrespective of how important or unimportant that information was. An example of what I am referring to is found here.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=139

The Mcadams website loves to publish material criticizing anyone who dares to think there was anything mysterious about Kilgallen's death, but that is besides the point. I would also add that Lee Israel mentions that Dorothy had anemia, and that there was a barbituate issue, in relation to Kilgallen.

Nevertheless what I ran across, is an allegation which, I am not sure is true or not, but does mention something at the very least noteworthy.

It is in the form of a "Memo to President Johnson," and the manner in which it is written leaves unclear whether the memo was published in Kilgallen's newspaper articles covering the Warren Commission and Jack Ruby or, is one of those “Frank Sinatra’s drummer killed JFK after he got off the spaceship with Elvis” road to nowhere items.

I would definitely search for corroboration of this before giving it too much interest.

At any rate, the memo is recorded as follows.

MEMO TO PRESIDENT JOHNSON: "Please check with the State Department...the leaders of our Armed Forces or our chief scientists, to discover what, if anything, we are doing to explore the ramifications of 'cloud- busting' which in its refined stages means thought control and could change the history of the world. We could catch up if someone in command gave the word before it was too late.

I found this in the book Mind Control Oswald and JFK, which is Ken Thomas’ analysis of the Lincoln Lawrence book, Were We Controlled, on pages 161-162.

Finding out if this article appeared in the New York Journal American, in or around December 21, 1964, seems like a not too difficult thing to do.

Edited by Robert Howard
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Guest Tom Scully

Robert,

Here is a picture of a newspaper page containing Kilgallen's syndicated column, published Dec. 7, 1964, containing the "memo to Predient Johnson" you described:

kilgallen.jpg

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Robert,

Here is a picture of a newspaper page containing Kilgallen's syndicated column, published Dec. 7, 1964, containing the "memo to Predient Johnson" you described:

kilgallen.jpg

Thank You Tom. To be honest I was a little skeptical, as to whether the report of the story was true, cloudbusting in 1964 wasn't exactly an everyday topic. Wonder who Dorothy's source for that was? I don't believe Lee Israel mentions it.

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After trying to find more info on the "exclusive" and "private" Kilgallen/Ruby interview via the web I was intrigued to find that many, about 20%, of the reports state the interview was far from exclusive and certainly not private and was no more than a few words inside the packed courtroom during a recess, whilst other reporters looked on within hearing range. Hardly the right setting for Ruby to confess anything of any consequence that would "break the case wide open"! Kinda perplexing, until I realised that most, if not all, of the remaining 80% of the reports which claim an exclusive interview between Kilgallen and Ruby share the same common source, an authoress by the name of Lee Israel, indeed the lady is mentioned in several post's in this very thread. More than that, a great deal of the information concerning Kilgallen and her death written here comes directly from Israel's book "Kilgallen". So how reliable a source is Lee Israel? Well, considering she's a self confessed forger, xxxx, thief, con artist and criminal....I'm thinking not very.

http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2008/07/2...show_index.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/24/books/24forg.html

http://www.thetakeaway.org/stories/2008/au...literary-crime/

Edited by Denis Pointing
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After trying to find more info on the "exclusive" and "private" Kilgallen/Ruby interview via the web I was intrigued to find that many, about 20%, of the reports state the interview was far from exclusive and certainly not private and was no more than a few words inside the packed courtroom during a recess, whilst other reporters looked on within hearing range. Hardly the right setting for Ruby to confess anything of any consequence that would "break the case wide open"! Kinda perplexing, until I realised that most, if not all, of the remaining 80% of the reports which claim an exclusive interview between Kilgallen and Ruby share the same common source, an authoress by the name of Lee Israel, indeed the lady is mentioned in several post's in this very thread. More than that, a great deal of the information concerning Kilgallen and her death written here comes directly from Israel's book "Kilgallen". So how reliable a source is Lee Israel? Well, considering she's a self confessed forger, xxxx, thief, con artist and criminal....I'm thinking not very.

http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2008/07/2...show_index.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/24/books/24forg.html

http://www.thetakeaway.org/stories/2008/au...literary-crime/

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/03/books/review/Mallon-t.html

To paraphrase Mr. Rogers, "Can you say literary suicide?"

That the piece is written by the author of Mrs. Paine's Garage, is a proverbial irony, for those who can read between the lines, it might as well mean that not a word in her Kilgallen book will be worth citing, even if it is true.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/03/books/review/Mallon-t.html

Thank's to you [Lee] it works for all of us, not the United Way.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Not sure if this has already been posted....

It has already been discussed on the forum. Larry Hancock has argued that it is definitely a forgery.

Thanks John.

Found out more about it - allegedly this piece was discovered by Milo Speriglio - the Marilyn detective - but couldn't even verify that. Known as the 'Monroe Document;' allegedly the signature is James Jesus Angleton and it has a Majestic reference - plus a 'Moon Dust' project reference. If one Majestic reference could be determined legit, perhaps there would be a domino effect - certainly there are some interesting bits and pieces there to chew on which seem to make a good deal of logical sense - to me anyway - esp with respect to her 'cloudbusting' comment, and other things...

- lee

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I just got a hold of a 1979 copy of the book of her name. Hard to read, but the first thing that I get out of it is that in such a big "house" ( five story Park Avenue Mansion) , unwelcome people could have came and went with ease. The husband was drunk; there was help coming and going; an ideal place to off somebody.

Specific to the case, her time of death or even the time NYPD found her has not really been established, which makes it suspicious at the outset. She did not kill herself and that was what they wanted in order to avoid the investigation of a suicide, so it had to be an accident.

15 or more pills do not an accident make.

She was murdered.

Edited by Peter McGuire
missed words
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After trying to find more info on the "exclusive" and "private" Kilgallen/Ruby interview via the web I was intrigued to find that many, about 20%, of the reports state the interview was far from exclusive and certainly not private and was no more than a few words inside the packed courtroom during a recess, whilst other reporters looked on within hearing range. Hardly the right setting for Ruby to confess anything of any consequence that would "break the case wide open"! Kinda perplexing, until I realised that most, if not all, of the remaining 80% of the reports which claim an exclusive interview between Kilgallen and Ruby share the same common source, an authoress by the name of Lee Israel, indeed the lady is mentioned in several post's in this very thread. More than that, a great deal of the information concerning Kilgallen and her death written here comes directly from Israel's book "Kilgallen". So how reliable a source is Lee Israel? Well, considering she's a self confessed forger, xxxx, thief, con artist and criminal....I'm thinking not very.

http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2008/07/2...show_index.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/24/books/24forg.html

http://www.thetakeaway.org/stories/2008/au...literary-crime/

The crimes Lee Israel committed in 1990, 1991 and 1992 have nothing to do with the research she had done on Kilgallen more than twelve years earlier. She finished her Kilgallen work in 1978, more than a year before the book's September 1979 publication. Moreover, almost a dozen people she quoted in the book later did soundbite video interviews that confirm the quotes. They did, in fact, say what Lee Israel said they had said. Do you know anything about what it's like to be a successful New York writer? Lee began her life of crime almost five years after the publication of her book about American cosmetics tycoon Estee Lauder. That book flopped, ruining her access to major publishers.

Not only can you see visuals and hear audio of Lee's sources confirming what's in the book, but you even can access interviews by three people who saw Dorothy Kilgallen during the last six months of her life and they never talked to Lee. So that material is not in the book.

Did you know Dorothy Kilgallen was invisible at the time Lee committed her crimes in the early 1990s? Lee did not have the option of reissuing her book or hooking up with fans of "What's My Line?". She did not have those options because "What's My Line?" was invisible. Reruns on the Game Show Network did not start until December of 1994. That is when the network was launched. Today the network, renamed GSN, still exists, but it discontinued all old black and white game shows just three months ago. You Tube is the place to see and hear Dorothy in 2009. And Lee Israel is once again a law - abiding citizen, doing freelance magazine work and editing.

Maybe Ron Pataky (the friend Dorothy made the year before she died) will confess something. If you Google him, you will notice that he is alive. His date of birth is on Mr. Simkin's "Spartacus" web site. I assume people have read the strange online interview with him about Dorothy. It is on the Midwest Today web site. That magazine investigated the mystery, and editor / publisher Larry Jordan has nothing to do with Lee Israel's life of crime.

Edited by David Yarnell
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I just got a hold of a 1979 of the book of her name. Hard to read, but the first thing that I get out of it is that in such a big "house" ( five story Park Avenue Mansion) , unwelcome people could have came and went with ease. The husband was drunk; there was help coming and going; an ideal place to off somebody.

Specific to the case, her time of death or even the time NYPD found her has not really been established, which makes it suspicious at the outset. She did not kill herself and that was what they wanted in order to avoid the investigation of a suicide, so it had to be an accident.

15 or more pills do not an accident make.

She was murdered.

Mr. McGuire, you can access video and audio of Kilgallen's hairdresser Marc Sinclaire saying he found her dead a few minutes after nine in the morning, and he noticed another person inside the house who seemed to be aware of the death already. There is a document from the NYPD saying her body was still inside the house after three in the afternoon. You also see and hear Mr. Sinclaire saying an NYPD squad car was parked in front of the house with two officers seated inside. They paid no attention to Mr. Sinclaire.

The number of barbiturate capsules she took was never established. There was something else in her stomach that had nothing to do with barbiturates or alcohol: an unidentified pink liquid. That is in the autopsy report that anyone can access at the National Archives in Maryland near Washington, DC. Lee Israel did not invent the pink liquid when she included it in her book. She asked officials of the medical examiner's office about it, and they said they never knew what the pink liquid was. The chemist responsible for analyzing it, a man named Charles Umberger, died in December of 1977 at age 70 without having talked to Ms. Israel.

Edited by David Yarnell
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In Ron Pataky's new role as a Christian counselor, is he in any way affiliated with Charles Colson? Important to see which ministry sponsors RP.

No, he never was affiliated with Colson. He got a master's degree from Liberty University in Virginia in 1993. Jerry Falwell was president then, but the two never met. Between 1988 and 1990, Ron worked for a Christian radio network called Family Life Ministries, based near Elmira, New York.

I don't recommend exploring Ron Pataky's ties to Christians. He had no ties to them during the 1960s when he knew Dorothy Kilgallen. He was busy working full-time for a regular daily newspaper called the Columbus Citizen Journal. It was in Columbus, Ohio. Ron did express his Christian faith in the newspaper occasionally, such as in a 1965 column about which Columbus nightclubs were open during Easter week. This was during the year and five months that he knew Kilgallen.

But he expressed his strong patriotism in his column, too. That is more disturbing. Several days before the Easter 1965 report, he sang the praises of the newly released movie The Sound of Music, ending the column by noting that Julie Andrews is his favorite woman in the world, "next to Betsy Ross of course." That wasn't his only expression of Americanism, I promise you. Read his 1965 review of the movie John Goldfarb, Please Come Home, which made CIA agents look bad. There had been some publicity earlier that year and the previous year (1964) about that movie making the Notre Dame football team look bad. But only Ron Pataky took issue with the CIA agents, one of whom was played by Harry Morgan (later to become famous on the TV series "Dragnet" and "M*A*S*H.")

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  • 1 year later...

I carried out a search on Kilgallen on the web. The first batch of pages contained information that I already knew about Kilgallen and were just recycled details that have appeared in various books about the assassination of Kennedy. However, I eventually came across an anti-Castro website. It included newspaper accounts revealing details of what Castro had been up to over the last fifty years. One account was a newspaper article written by Kilgallen for New York Journal American on 15th July, 1959. Like the other articles on the site it was highly critical of Castro. It also contained something else that surprised me a great deal. Kilgallen claimed that the CIA and the Mafia were involved in a plot to assassinate Fidel Castro. We now know this was true but it only became public knowledge during the Frank Church’s Select Committee on Intelligence Activities in 1975. This article was written in July, 1959. Kilgallen was obviously well-informed about what was going on in the CIA at that time.

This raises a new question about the death of Kilgallen (she died in similar circumstances to Monroe). Was she killed because of what she knew about the Kennedy assassination or was it more to do with what she knew about the death of Marilyn Monroe?

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKkilgallen.htm

I have just finished reading "Kilgallen" by Lee Israel and found it a facinating look inside the life of the rich and famous of that time. I too, found her anti-Castro stance, and conflict with Jack Parr about that, interesting.

Regarding her death; as one pathologist put it "well, they were enough to kill her", yet that amount was not consistant with the amount usually used, and available in that house for it to have been suicide.

McAdams needs to malign Mark Lane in order to deal with this:

"Someone might be able to prove someday that there was more to Dorothy

Kilgallen's death than met the eye that night. But if someone succeeds in

doing that, he will still not be able to show that it could have had any

remote connection with the JFK assassination. If one encompasses

everything she knew at the time of her death, it is clear that she did not

have a clue as to what the truth really was. *Her entire investigation had

consisted of shoddy detective work on her part, coupled with false and

misleading information from a dishonest gentleman named Mark Lane.

Had she been able to tell the world everything she knew on the night of her

death, they would have been given another sneak preview of some of the

stories Mark Lane would trumpet in his book (i) Rush To Judgment (i), as

well as a possible preview of some of Jim Garrison's outlandish assertions

that culminated in his witchhunt against Clay Shaw. In both instances,

Kilgallen had been nothing more than a courier, not an investigator.

*Considering that no ill-fortune befell either Lane or Garrison when their

respective work appeared in full bloom by 1966 and 1967, the likelihood of

Kilgallen's death being assassination-related becomes even more remote.

Indeed, the FBI files available to us, indicate that at no time were they

ever concerned about the nature of any of her 1964 assertions about the

case that were fed to her by Lane. The only thing about Dorothy Kilgallen

that ever worried the FBI was the prospect of more columns unjustly

maligning their image if they continued their investigation of who leaked

the Ruby transcript to her."

The problem with this is that she was indeed an investigator who had talked directly to a source - Mr. Jack Ruby,

and allegedly had a file and notes regarding her investigation.

*This gentleman is alive and well and well versed in the law. Someone is lucky that he escaped a major lawsuit for these remarks.

*Again, this is not true since she was talking with a primary witness and there had to be documents of some kind that would worry those covering this up.

And because of her lifestyle, it was easy to arrange an "overdose" for her. It would not have been so easy to kill Mr. Lane or Garrison. In any event, these men were handled quite well by being discredited. Lane had them figured out in 1964 - Garrison a few years later. They must be discredited to this day.

Edited by Peter McGuire
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