The Magic Bullet Theory

[Mike Rago]

Your post rambles a bit too much for me to easily follow.

Anyway, you say that you did not avoid answering my simple question....However I cannot find where you answered it. I do see that you are adamant that CE399 was not in Dallas so I guess you are saying that the 30 cal was in Dallas that day because one or the other of those bullets had to have been fired from a gun that day to end up on Connallys stretcher.

Here was the simple question that I asked you ...

Do you agree that one of the two bullets, either CE399 or a 30 cal bullet was in Dallas that day and fired from a gun and ended up in near pristine condition, looking like it did not hit anything?

So I will assume that you believe a 30 caliber bullet was fired from a gun that day and ended up on Connally's stretcher in near pristine condition.

Now I have another question for you....

How did the 30 cal bullet get fired from a gun and end up in near pristine condition on Connally's stretcher?

Edited August 15, 2012 by Mike Rago

[Ian Kingsbury]

Could you shorten that question Mike ?.

Consider this, Oswald had no power over the errors made nor the myriad of coincidences

That were required to convince the public he was guilty.

It only worked until somebody actually read it!.

Edited August 15, 2012 by Ian Kingsbury

[David Josephs]

Your post rambles a bit too much for me to easily follow.

Anyway, you say that you did not avoid answering my simple question....However I cannot find where you answered it. I do see that you are adamant that CE399 was not in Dallas so I guess you are saying that the 30 cal was in Dallas that day because one or the other of those bullets had to have been fired from a gun that day to end up on Connallys stretcher.

Here was the simple question that I asked you ...

Do you agree that one of the two bullets, either CE399 or a 30 cal bullet was in Dallas that day and fired from a gun and ended up in near pristine condition, looking like it did not hit anything?

So I will assume that you believe a 30 caliber bullet was fired from a gun that day and ended up on Connally's stretcher in near pristine condition.

Now I have another question for you....

How did the 30 cal bullet get fired from a gun and end up in near pristine condition on Connally's stretcher?

Too many big words again Mikey? sorry, I'll try to dumb it down for you

Q: Do you agree that one of the two bullets, either CE399 or a 30 cal bullet was in Dallas that day and fired from a gun and ended up in near pristine condition, looking like it did not hit anything?

A: NO,

- CE399 was NOT in Dallas...

- the 30 cal bullet was mentioned by a few people as being a clean, pointed bullet and having been seen and held at Parkland by Tomlinson... THIS is the bullet given to Wright, which Wright gives to Johnson, which Johnson gives to Rowley.

- CE399 as we now know it came into existence when Todd handed Frazier the bullet and he, Frazier, and two others THEN put their initials on it... in DC

- the OTHER BULLET (in the SS memo) may have been the pointed one... yet has disappeared to History. Like the Limo stop... there are those that saw it and swear to it... but the physical evidence for it is very hard to come by.

MIKE: So I will assume that you believe a 30 caliber bullet was fired from a gun that day and ended up on Connally's stretcher in near pristine condition.

A: Why would you ASSume that when you keep saying I have not answered the question?

- there is nothing you have to prove anything was fired THAT DAY

- there is nothing you have to show it was Connally's stretcher - in fact, the evidence shows it was NOT either JFK or JC's stretcher that was moved

- we have TESTIMONY that the bullet was in the condition you describe... So what?

Q: How did the 30 cal bullet get fired from a gun and end up in near pristine condition on Connally's stretcher?

A: WHEREVER IT WAS FOUND....

- EITHER - SOMEONE (Jack Ruby) PUT IT THERE...

- or Parkland, being a busy ER hospital, could have had another patient with a gunshot wound... WE DONT KNOW, MIKE.

If you can cannot those dots with something other than your opinion... sure would like to see it...

[Mike Rago]

So you think the 30 cal bullet was planted by someone.

You believe that they first planted a nearly pristine 30 cal bullet and then later on planted a second bullet , the one we know as CE399 and took back their first planted bullet, the 30 cal round.

Edited August 15, 2012 by Mike Rago

[Mark Wengler]

David Josephs may I ask you a question? If you choose to answer it would you please keep your answer short.

Do you agree that one of the two bullets, either CE399 or a 30 cal bullet was in Dallas that day and fired from a gun and ended up in near pristine condition, looking like it did not hit anything?

So, we can say that one of those bullets either CE399 or a 30 cal bullet (which we do not have anymore and may never have had it) was fired from a gun that day and ended up in almost pristine condition in Connally's clothes.

Sorry buddy, I don't do "short" - I prefer to support my posts with actual evidence and then authenticate/coroborrate that evidence..

I try not to deal with opinion unless I say I am expressing an opinion.

So Mike.... you can ask me anything you like... as long as you agree to provide evidence and authentication for your argument against.....

There is evidence that a pointed round was found... yet disappeared... it is SAID not to have been disformed and it looked intact

There is NO EVIDENCE that ce399 was in Dallas, in contact with either JFK or JC, and no Chain of custody until TODD gives it to Frasier in DC....

CE399 only appears on the scene as a result of Chief ROWLEY giving it to ELMER TODD on his way to Frasier...

(please remember that TODD was the agent sent to convince the Parkland docs, specifically Perry, that the throat would COULD BE either entrance or exit... after hounding him repeatedly..

Todd himself expresses regret at the manner inwhich he did his job regarding Perry....

Reading the Bell Article linked here will help with your understanding that the WCR conclusions are CRAP.... the physical evidence? more Bullsh!t

The medical evidence? Please.

As I've asked you in the past Mike... you can present any piece of evidence from the WCR or HSCA and we can show you how it is not only NOT supported by the evidence but more than likely the evidence states exactly the opposite - and not in a single instance, but in ALL instances.....

http://jfkhistory.co...ellArticle.html

Wright's and Tomlinson's unanimous rejection of CE-399 was further confirmed by this top secret FBI airtel, which was never shown to the Warren Commission.

WFO (FBI Washington Field Office),

neither

DARRELL C. TOMLINSON,

who found bullet at Parkland Hospital, Dallas, nor O. P. WRIGHT, Personnel

Officer, Parkland Hospital, who obtained bullet from TOMLINSON and gave

to Special Service, at Dallas 11/22/63,

can identify bullet

.

Instead, the FBI told the commission that the two civilians had been interviewed by special agent Bardwell Odum, who was told by the men, that the stretcher bullet "appears to be the same one". But when Josiah Thompson and Dr. Gary Aguilar contacted the National Archives, they found no record of such an interview, in spite of the fact that the FBI was required to document interviews like that. And when they contacted Bardwell Odum in person, he denied ever conducting such an interview and stated that he had never even seen CE399.

......

Considering the time zones, it was between 90 minutes and 2 hours after the arrival of those fragments at the FBI labs, that Tomlinson was awakened by someone from the FBI, demanding that he "keep his mouth shut" about the bullet he found at Parkland hospital. This is from the recorded 1967 interview of Tomlinson by Ray Marcus. The interview is also documented in the HSCA records.

Tomlinson: On Friday morning about 12:30 to 1 o'clock - uh, excuse me, that's Saturday morning (11/23) - after the assassination, the FBI woke me up on the phone and told me to to keep my mouth shut.

Marcus: About the circumstances of your finding the bullet?

Tomlinson: That is (one short word, unintelligible) what I found…

Marcus: I understand exactly what you mean, when they call you, it's pretty authoritative. But the thing is this, did they say - was there any particular thing about what they said or they just didn't want you to talk about it period?

Tomlinson: Just don't talk about it period.

and finally Mike... your graphic on the SBT and Specter shows just how little you understand here... you PROVE the SBT is impossible

without the 3 degree slope of ELM, the trajectory from 6th floor SE corner would be 20 degrees (17 plus the 3 degree slope)

What you've done is prove a shot MUST have come from Dal-Tex to enter at a SBT angle thru JFK.... which of course is unacceptable to the WCR

and if you look at Altgens 6 you see an open window on the 2nd floor behind the fire-escape....

Plus the bullet was moving RIGHT to LEFT... how far to the LEFT did the bullet travel between JFK's throat and JC's armpit given the extreme R2L angle

and where was JC sitting? how far to the LEFT and BELOW was JC's injuries?

The SBT is impossible Mike.... It was then and is now AN INSULT TO THE INTELLIGENCE.....

Plus, we show you the angles right here - as I did before... and asked that you draw an entrance and exit location that conforms to the SBT....

Burkley said the bullet entered at T3.... which is even lower than the throat.... and HUMES/FBI tells us the bullet only went in an inch or so and PROBABLY fell out due to external cardiac massage.

When/where did THAT bullet fall out and disappear to?

I always thought that this reenactment was worthless they did not use the limo that Kennedy & Connolly was in. They needed to use the Presidential Limousine SS100X to show proper setting of both men

[David Josephs]

Mark... everything related to the Silly Bullet Theory was worthless... other than to convince the gullible public of what couldn't have possibly occurred.

One can almost see the wheels spinning in Specter's head... to come up with what as to be the most sensational question ever asked...

Mr. SPECTER - Permit me to supply some additional facts, Dr. Perry, which I shall ask you to assume as being true for purposes of having you express an opinion.

Assume first of all that

1) the President was struck by a 6.5 mm.

2) copper-jacketed bullet (DJ: that unlike this one, severely fragmented and exploded into a cloud of dust particles)

3) fired from a gun having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second,

ballistically arced very slightly while traveling 189 ft (58 m) in a downward net angle of 19 degrees (allowing for the 3 degrees downward slope of Elm Street), after an initial supersonic rifle exit muzzle velocity of 1,850 to 2,000 feet per second (560 to 610 m/s), then entered President Kennedy's rear suit coat at about 1,700 feet per second (518 m/s),

4) with the weapon being approximately 160 to 250 feet from the President,

with the bullet striking him at an angle of declination of approximately 45 degrees,

5) striking the President on the upper right posterior thorax just above the upper border of the scapula, being 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process, passing through the President's body striking no bones, traversing the neck and sliding between the large muscles in the posterior portion of the President's body through a fascia channel without violating the pleural cavity

DJ: LOOK at where this bullet hole is... LOOK at where his neck is by comparison UNDERSTAND THAT SPECTER says 45 degrees downward..

in reality it was about 20 degrees... DOWNWARD...

Put your finger between your shoulder blades and point DOWN at 20 degrees.... throat EXIT? no way.

but bruising the apex of the right pleural cavity, and bruising the most apical portion of the right lung inflicting a hematoma to the right side of the larynx, which you have just described, and striking the trachea causing the injury which you described,

and then exiting from the hole that you have described in the midline of the neck.

Now, assuming those facts to be true, would the hole which you observed in the neck of the President be consistent with an exit wound under those circumstances?

SPECTER:

IOW... if I ASSUME the hole we are talking about is and exit would, and further assume that FACT TO BE TRUE...

My question Dr Perry et al.... was the HOLE I TOLD YOU WAS AN EXIT, an exit hole?

And people out there can still cling to the "no conspiracy" stance

[Mike Rago]

If I have done the math right....

I calculate the the shot that passed through JFK's neck came from an approximate height of 21.5' in the Daltex Building.

What floor would 21.5 feet (rough estimate) correspond to in the Daltex Building?

Elevation of sidewalk at Daltex building ~= 101 feet.

Elevation of Elm street at point of first shot ~= 92.5 feet.

Elevation of window ledge 6th floor Daltex building = 171.6 feet.

Height of first five floors of Daltex building is 171.6-101 = 70.6 feet.

Average height of floor would be 70.6/5 ~= 14 feet per floor ==> 30 feet would be the 3rd floor.

Estimated the shot entered at a 5° angle relative to the president.

Calculated that Elm Street sloped down about 1.6° from the sidewalk at the Daltex Building.

Estimated that the limo was about 258 feet from the Daltex building at time of the shot.(map view).

(I think this shot occurred between Zapruder frame 215 and Zapruder frame 220)

EDIT: I made an error in the above calculation.

I have to subtract the elevation difference between the base of the Daltex building (101 feet) from the elevation on Elm Street where limo was at time of shot(92.5 feet). That is 8.5 feet. The height in the Daltex Building would be (30-8.5) = 21.5 feet which would put the assassin on the second floor for the shot which passed through the presidents neck.

I am giving these numbers so that they can be corrected with better estimates.

Edited August 16, 2012 by Mike Rago

[Daniel Gallup]

The story behind 399 gets even murkier. It may not have been at Dallas, but it may have been at Bethesda. My copy of Best Evidence is tattered, torn, and at least right now, missing, but David Lifton devotes a chapter to the Osborne allegation, which seems to have been forgotten in all this discussion. Apparently an intact bullet fell out of President Kennedy's clothing, according to Admiral Osborne. Without Best Evidence in front of me I can't recall all the details, but Lifton wonders, and i think correctly, if the role of 399 had not yet been determined, and this was one way to tie the bullet to Kennedy. Or by that time its role had been determined, and its appearance at Bethesda was one of many screw-ups in the plot to frame Oswald.

[Mike Rago]

I admit this is a very crude way of measuring. One red arrow is the height of a policeman I see standing on the sidewalk. I am assuming he is 6 feet tall.

21.5 feet would be the second floor.

Edited August 16, 2012 by Mike Rago

[Mike Rago]

Altgens6 was taken at Zapruder frame 255. This was about 2 seconds after the shot which struck JFK and about 1 second after the shot which struck Connally.

Altgens6 - Daltex Building Second and Third Floor

Third Floor enlargement

Edited August 17, 2012 by Mike Rago

[David Josephs]

The story behind 399 gets even murkier. It may not have been at Dallas, but it may have been at Bethesda. My copy of Best Evidence is tattered, torn, and at least right now, missing, but David Lifton devotes a chapter to the Osborne allegation, which seems to have been forgotten in all this discussion. Apparently an intact bullet fell out of President Kennedy's clothing, according to Admiral Osborne. Without Best Evidence in front of me I can't recall all the details, but Lifton wonders, and i think correctly, if the role of 399 had not yet been determined, and this was one way to tie the bullet to Kennedy. Or by that time its role had been determined, and its appearance at Bethesda was one of many screw-ups in the plot to frame Oswald.

Yes indeed Daniel... nice catch.

I remember the Osbourne dialog... and the HSCA dance around....

The HSCA is at least admitting that Osbourne was there...

(50) John Stringer, the medical photographer, likewise recalled

some discussion at the beginning of the autopsy concerning the scope

of the autopsy. He said he believed Dr. Burkley played a central role

in the discussions and seemed to be acting on behalf of the Kennedy

family . (39) He specifically recalled Dr. Burkley indicating to the

doctors that they should not conduct a full autopsy, saying, "*

(,you) shouldn't do a complete one if (you) don't have to." (40)

(51) Adm. David Osborne (then captain) stated that at the beginning

of the autopsy there was tremendous pressure to perform a

"quick post" and to leave the hospital . (h.1)

(58) Special Agents Sibert and O'Neill confirmed that the pathologists

had X-rays taken before and after making incisions.

The FIRST incision was at 8:15 according to the official record - the FIRST incision in an autopsy is the "Y" incision - the head and neck were NOT cut into or investigated thoroughly.

The Body officially arrived at the morgue at 8pm yet Humes tells Finck at 7:30 when he calls him, that photos and xrays had already been taken. ??

The FOX photos are obviously PRE incision...

AS Xrays were being taken from the morgue to be developed, the technician sees Jackie and party arrive and enter the hospital

WHILE JFK IS SUPPOSED TO BE IN THE COFFIN....

Neat trick - huh?

DJ

This is from volume VII, with the paragraph numbers in parentheses.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

(84) In a committee telephone interview with Admiral

Osborne, another issue arose. He stated that he thought he

recalled seeing an intact slug roll out from the clothing of

President Kennedy and onto the autopsy table when personnel

opened the casket and removed the clothing from the body of the

President.

(85) The committee reviewed thoroughly all documents and

recontacted those persons who moved the body of the President

from the casket onto the autopsy table and then prepared the body

for examination. Paul K. O'Connor, who along with James Jenkins,

had the duty of preparing the body for the autopsy, said the body

had arrived at about 8 p.m. and was wrapped in a body bag [note,

this is Lifton's guy--J. McA.], the head in a sheet. O'Connor said

he assisted in unwrapping the sheet and could not recall any foreign

object, specifically a missile, being discovered during the

autopsy or while unwrapping the sheets.

We all are aware that when leaving PARKLAND, JFK was nude, wrapped in sheets, with more sheets around his head..

A clear plastic LINER was placed in the coffin first to keep the blood from seeping...

So how is it that the HSCA can conclude an 8pm arrival.... in a BODY BAG no less, when the evidence celarly suggests a different story?

(86) Jenkins likewise said he could not recall any foreign

objects being discovered or discussed and specifically could not

recall any missile or fragments of a missile falling out onto the

autopsy table or floor.

(87) Throughout the committee's investigation, no one had

ever mentioned the discovery of a missile in Bethesda Naval

Hospital. The only bullet recovered was the one discovered at

Parkland Memorial Hospital.

So what about Osbourne's mentioning it - how does he become "no one"?

(88) Following this investigation, the committee

recontacted Admiral Osborne and informed him that the body of the

President had not arrived in any clothes, but was wrapped in

sheets, (116) and that no one else recalled anything about the

discovery of a missile.

And what about the body bag?

Admiral Osborne then said that he could not be sure he

actually did see a missile and that it was possible the FBI and

Secret Service only spoke about the discovery of a missile. He

did say he was positive only one bullet was ever recovered,

whether it was discovered at Bethesda Hospital or Parkland

Hospital.

Success for yet another governmental "official" investigation.... the FIRST story was wrong... what was FIRST REPORTED AND SEEN..?

a mistake

Is it me, or does that seem to happen ALOT in this case???

[Mike Rago]

Did any of the people circled in this photo give witness statements?

[David Josephs]

No

[David Von Pein]

On 8/11/2012 at 9:01 AM, James R Gordon said:

Why don't you address how a low entry wound can exit through a higher exit wound. How is that possible???

Well, in the JFK case, that simply did not happen---as the side-by-side autopsy photo comparison below clearly demonstrates. It's quite clear (despite what the HSCA determined) that the wound in JFK's upper back was located ABOVE the exit wound in his throat:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/07/jfk-back-wound-location.html

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2018/01/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1270.html

 

Edited July 26, 2022 by David Von Pein

[James R Gordon]

David,

A couple of years I posted an image of JFK's shirt. It was taken from the front and - unlike previous images of the shirt - it high definition picture image which clearly showed the position of the back entrance wound on the shirt.

This images of the shirt showed just how low the back wound was compared to the neck wound. You are bound to have taken a copy of this image of the shirt. I remember when I posted it it was a complete revelation to the forum. It seem unlikely you would not have taken a copy of it for your research.

Please re-post that image and lets debate from that image.

Should you not have a copy I am sure other members have a copy they could post.

If we are to debate the relative positions of the back wound to the throat wound lets do so with the best evidence available.

James