Evidence for the location of limo at moment first rifle shot is heard

[Robert Prudhomme]

So, the "shallow" back wound was faked, but all the other wounds were real? How do you come by such knowledge?

By your reasoning, the whole assassination could have been faked, and JFK might still be living in cognito with Elvis and Salman Rushdie on a tropical island somewhere.

You are the worst kind of researcher, one who only cherry picks that evidence which will support his theory, and ignores the rest. You are on your own.

[Jon G. Tidd]

Jon G. Tidd

How do you think it came about that a bullet entered JFK's back at about the level of thoracic vertebra T3, and only caused a shallow wound?

Jon G. Tidd

How do you think it came about that a bullet entered JFK's back at about the level of thoracic vertebra T3, and only caused a shallow wound?

I'm open minded as to whether the back wound was shallow or deep. My query (above) to Pat is based on the possibility a bullet fired from the rear hit the back seat, lost energy, and then struck JFK's back. I'm not asserting this chain of events occurred. Just exploring the possibility.

[Robert Mady]

Robert, if you can put all the evidence in context.

1) Wound was frontal, entrance in the throat from the front.

2) 'Pristine' bullet mysteriously appearing on a stretcher.

3) 'Pristine' bullet is forensic match for rifle said to be OSWALDs rifle.

4) They needed a wound to explain how a 'Pristine' bullet could exist, if it had gone thru body parts it would have been deformed to a greater extent, thru bones it would have been flattened, but if only penetrated an inch into the body = 'Pristine' bullet.

5) 'Pristine' bullet did not contain residue or traces from KENNEDY or CONNALLY

6) 'Pristine' bullet is not real

7) They needed a way to account for the silent shot, they did this by purposely firing an extra round, deceptively altered the timing as to when it was fired to account for the back wound they created. They need three shots to account for three wounds, back, head and CONNALLY, they never counted on TAGUE, they had to revise their plans when TAGUE made the news.

8) They initially pretended the throat wound never existed.

The hole was punched in KENNEDYS back to account for a 'Pristine' bullet being in existence. It was only when this bullet was required to account for CONNALLYS wounds that it became the "magic bullet".

There were over 20 people remaining in the TSBD scattered throughout almost every floor, a guess would be the same for the Dal-Tex building, there were no shots that came from these areas, no one within these buildings claimed to see strangers in their midst, you are being lead away from the truth by pursuing this false evidence.

Can't you understand that the media controls the evidence, the discussions and what we believe is truth, from the media they produce to the Pundits they promote as our leaders. If you can't totally break away from their influence you will not see the truth.

I don't have all of the facts of the assassination, there are many areas remaining to uncover, but knowing that the foundation of what we currently believe is totally wrong gives me the knowledge to not trust anything that does not fit within the structure that can be realized.

You can believe any fairy tale you choose.

You want the truth, this is what is being posted.

26 witnesses that claimed the first rifle shot came at Z-313 and other shots followed, in a sequence bham.....bham.bham.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Robert Mady

[Robert Mady]

Robert think about this how could they account for more than three wounds with only three rifle shots heard.

What if

1) KENNEDY was hit in the throat : by a silent shot

2) JACKIE was wounded : by a silent shot

3) CONNALLY was wounded : by a rifle shot

4) KENNEDY was fatally wounded : by a rifle shot

How do they explain this with three shots? Look at the contortions they had to go thru to create the SBT.

They planned on three hits, one from a silent weapon, it had to be accounted for by the sound of a rifle other wise the question would eventually arise: how did the extra wound occur?

Edited December 11, 2014 by Robert Mady

[Robert Mady]

They fired three shots at the limo

1) KENNEDYS throat - silent shot, likely contained a toxin, look at KENNEDYS strange reaction, the shot seems to have paralyzed him.

2) KENNEDY fatal head wound - rifle shot

3) Shot intended for YARBOROUGH, wounds CONNALLY who took YARBOROUGHS place - rifle shot

They needed one more rifle shot after wounding CONNALLY to account for the silent first shot, the last rifle shot was intended high and wide, down the street never expecting to hit anyone.

4) Rifle shot, ricochet injures TAGUE.

They required three rifle shots expecting three wounds.

This is also why no one can understand how TAGUE was injured, he was completely out of the line of fire. The last rifle shot taken was to account for three noises = three wounds.

Think about this Robert, most will not even venture a guess if it was WC shot 1 or WC shot 2 that injures TAGUE, because neither of these two shots make any sense.

The WC folk have the first shot bouncing off of trees and road signs to account for TAGUE, the conspiracy crowd doesn't even mention it. Its like TAGUES injury is so anomalous that everyone prefers that TAGUE doesn't exist.

Also if the first shot was silent yet a number of SSA where within the path and identified the noise as a rifle shot, then why didn't they react?

Why didn't anyone react after the second shot which was a rifle shot at supposedly Z-230?

No one in A6 is reacting, at Z-255.

How it is people like WOODWARD who was located near the limo at the time of Z-190 did not hear this shot or the one at Z-230 but heard the one at Z-313 and two additional rifle shots, you think that WOODWARDS experience is anomalous, then you don't understand testimony.

HILL does not move to the limo until CONNALLY lays back on top of NELLIE at Z-300, why didn't HILL react sooner, he claimed to hear the first 'firecracker' noise and see KENNEDY react, which sound is he claiming to have heard shot 1 or shot 2, he only heard one sound and it was at Z-190 corroborated by photographic evidence, why did he not make a move until ~Z-300?

Edited December 11, 2014 by Robert Mady

[James R Gordon]

Robert,

You question why if the first shot occurred at 190 why Clint Hill did not move until around 300. Very good point. Especially when in Altgens 6 we see Hill is already focused on JFK.

The problem is that we have facilities, which if present in 1963, would have solved the case. We have the Zapruder film and the ability to separate it into quality frames. I feel that sometimes blinds us to reality. Between 190 and 300 is approximately 5 seconds. From 255 to 300 is around 2.5 seconds. That is little time. At 190 the Queen Mary was further behind than at 300. Even if Hill had moved at 190 I doubt there was sufficient time to reach the car. Even at 300, when the Queen Mary was under 3 ft behind, he did not make it. Then there is Roberts who is understood to have demanded that no one move and I assume Hill was aware of that.

We have between 50 and 100 frames to look at, but - at maximum - Hill had 5 seconds but more likely 2.5. Sometimes it is worth remembering that reality of the situation and what actually could be done as opposed to what we might have wish had been done.

James

[Robert Prudhomme]

Very good point you make, James. And, if I may add to that, recognition of a shot, at that point, may have been difficult for the SS agents, Hill included.

As you well know, I firmly believe the first shot that struck JFK's back was fired from a rifle equipped with a suppressor, and the only sound heard would be the "crack" of the supersonic bullet as it passed by. Otherwise, there is no explanation for the total lack of startle reactions in the bystanders.

Would the SS agents be trained to recognize the distinct sound of a suppressed bullet? With all of the background noise, would they be able to separate it from the other sounds? How long would it take to register this unique noise as a threat to the President?

As you say, 5 seconds is not a long time.

[James R Gordon]

Robert,

I am sure you are right that for a period of time - how long we cannot be sure - the Secret Service were not sure what was going on. After all early reports suggested it was a fire cracker. Altgens - which equates to 255 - makes clear that JFK has clearly been injured by that point. Logic suggests that this injury took place earlier than 255. How much earlier is an issue of debate. That is clearly an issue I would like to see Robert Mady address. If the correct interpretation of Altgens is that JFK is wounded by this point, then clearly the first shot was not at 313.

I agree that back wound is a very strage wound. It clearly is not a through wound yet - as DVP likes to point out - where is the bullet? David Lifton has suggested it was a wound created post assassination. What is clear is that something clearly struck JFK in the back as evidenced by his jacket and shirt. When it happened or what it was is not so clear.

James.

[Robert Mady]

Witnesses that claimed to react immediately upon hearing the first rifle shot

Affidavit Of Clifton C. Carter…when I heard a noise which sounded like a firecracker. Special Agent Youngblood, who was seated on the righthand side of the front seat of Vice President Johnson's car immediately turned and pushed Vice President Johnson down and in the same motion vaulted over the seat and covered the Vice President with his body. At that instant Mrs. Johnson and Senator Yarborough, who were riding in the back seat along with the Vice President, bent forward. Special Agent Youngblood's action came immediately after the first shot and before the succeeding shots.

SAIC Youngblood--Vice Presidential Detail: “I heard an explosion--I was not sure whether it was a firecracker, bomb, bullet, or other explosion. I looked at whatever I could quickly survey, and could not see anything which would indicate the origin of this noise. I noticed that the movements in the Presidential car were very abnormal and, at practically the same time, the movements in the Presidential follow-up car were abnormal. I turned in my seat and with my left arm grasped and shoved the Vice President, at his right shoulder, down and toward Mrs. Johnson and Senator Yarborough. At the same time, I shouted
"get down!" I believe I said this more than once and directed it to the Vice President and the other occupants of the rear seat. They all responded very rapidly.
I quickly looked all around again and could see nothing to shoot at, so I stepped over into the back seat and sat on top of the Vice President. I sat in a crouched position and issued orders to the driver.”

DS ROGER CRAIG – FBI: “…when he heard a noise which he presumed to be a gunshot. He states he immediately started West on Main Street…while in route he heard two additional noises…”

DS ROGER CRAIG – FBI: “…he heard a shot and ran around the corner…”

Hurchel Jacks report “I heard a shot ring out which appeared to come from the right rear of the Vice President's car. Mr. Rufus Youngblood, the Secret Service Agent riding in my car asked me what that was and at the name time he advised the Vice President and Mrs. Johnson to get down. He climbed to the rear of the seat with the Vice President and appeared to be shielding the Vice President with his own body.”

LBJ statement “I heard a sharp report. The crowd at this point had become somewhat spotty.
The Vice-Presidential car was then about three car lengths behind President Kennedy's car, with the Presidential followup car intervening.
I was startled by the sharp report or explosion. but I had no time to speculate as to its origin because Agent Youngblood turned in a flash, immediately after the first explosion, hitting me on the shoulder, and shouted to all of us in the back seat to get down. I was pushed down by Agent Youngblood. Almost in the same moment in which he hit or pushed me, he vaulted over the back seat and sat on me.”

DS McCurley report: “when I heard a retort and I immediately recognized it as the sound of a rifle. I started running around the corner where I knew the President's car should be and in a matter of a few seconds heard a second shot and then a third shot.”

DS Luke Mooney report “I heard a shot and I immediately started running towards the front of the motorcade and within seconds heard a second and a third shot.”

SSA Taylor report “I thought that it was a firecracker going off.
As a matter of course, I opened the door and prepared to get out of the car. In the instant that my left foot touched the ground, I heard two more bangs”

DS John Wiseman report “heard a shot and I knew something had happened. I ran at once to the corner of Houston and Main Street and out into the street when the second and third shots ran out.”

Witnesses that claimed to react after hearing the second rifle shot but before the third rifle shot.

BRENNAN

DARNELL

EUINS

Mr Hester

Mrs Hester

Johns

Mudd

William Newman (counting the first 'firecracker' sound as shot 1 and rifle shot at Z-313 as shot #2)

Summers

Weatherford

Worrell

-------

The Kennedy Detail long after rifle shot number two had supposedly been fired.

Edited December 13, 2014 by Robert Mady

[Robert Prudhomme]

Yes, James, I agree, though I must say the back wound pales in comparison, on the strangeness scale, to the throat wound.

It is simple to picture a hollow point frangible bullet entering the top of JFK's right lung, slowing up under strain as it passes through soft tissue and exploding into a cloud of metal dust, long before it had a chance to exit JFK's chest. OTOH, the same type of bullet entering JFK's throat does not have nearly enough soft tissue, between the entry point and the vertebrae, to make the hollow point frangible bullet come apart. Even if it did, the resulting lethal cloud of bullet dust would have done far more damage and, with the carotid artery so close, it seems likely it would have been torn and profuse arterial bleeding from JFK's throat wound would have been reported.

Needless to say, the throat wound is quite an enigma.

It must be remembered, though, that there is no proof that JFK suffered the throat wound at any time before the head wound. He never actually grabbed his throat with his hands but, rather, only brought them up to the level of his neck. It is possible this was a reaction to an open pneumothorax, brought about by the bullet in his lung, or it could be the throat wound was an entrance wound and the bullet struck the vertebrae in his neck. Either could have induced the arm raising reaction.

Edited December 12, 2014 by Robert Prudhomme

[Robert Mady]

Robert, can you understand that the existence of a 'pristine' bullet was part of the plan of the conspirators to tie the MC rifle to the exclusion of all others to the murder of JFK? Can you comprehend that if they planned to have the 'pristine' bullet discovered and used for evidence then they also planned how it could have come into existence which had to be a shallow wound, since the shots supposedly came from the TSBD the shallow hole would have been placed somewhere on JFK's back. The hole would have to be post added to JFK's body. You said it yourself a bullet traveling at a velocity that would only penetrate an inch could not be fired with the expectation of coming near the target because of the excessive drop.

They would not have needed to fire a frangible bullet at KENNEDYS back, the shot to the throat most likely would have killed him, besides if the frangible bullet penetrated thru KENNEDYS body a shallow wound would be unacceptable as evidence to have produced a 'pristine' bullet.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Do you have any comprehension whatsoever that a bullet with a muzzle velocity of 2200 feet per second simply cannot make a shallow wound (ie. 1 inch deep) in soft tissue on a target only 50 yards away? What kind of idiot would plan for a scenario like that?

If they had tried for a pristine bullet falling out of a shallow back wound, anyone with any ballistics knowledge would have laughed at them.

Honestly, I don't know where you are coming from but you have the most assbackwards approach to theorizing I have ever seen.

[Tom Neal]

The hole was punched in KENNEDYS back to account for a 'Pristine' bullet being in existence.

...account for the back wound they created.

Robert,

Admiral George Burkley's Dallas Death Certificate notes a bullet wound at the third thoracic vertebra. When do you believe this back wound was "created"?

Tom

[Robert Mady]

Admiral George Burkley's Dallas Death Certificate

Tom I don't know when the hole was created.

Maybe you wouldn't mind posting George Burkley's Warren Commission Testimony ?

Affidavit - Admiral George Burkley: "There was no difference in the nature of the wounds I saw at Parkland Hospital and those I observed at the autopsy at Bethesda Naval Hospital. "

Maybe you believe that KENNEDY wasn't wounded in the back of the head or wounded in the throat and the Parkland Doctors were responsible for mutilating the Presidents neck when they botched the tracheotomy?

Edited December 12, 2014 by Robert Mady

[Robert Mady]

Robert, can you provide what would be a reasonable explanation for the existence of the 'pristine' bullet?