Jeff Dahlstrom

Jeff, what I found disturbing about Glenn's post was his blindness to his own blindness. Ditto Sid. Whenever someone talks about the "Zionist agenda" blah blah blah, as if there is some big conspiracy beyond wanting a homeland, financial security, and to be left alone--THE SAME THINGS EVERY OTHER GROUP OF PEOPLE ON EARTH SEEM TO WANT-- I get a little queasy. Such an obvious and lame scapegoating of a relatively small number of people reeks of self-pity. "The world would have been super if those darned Jews didn't want a homeland." Yeah, right. What about every other darned group of people who ever wanted a homeland? Like those freakin' Americans who overthrew their King for lower taxes and gave an heroic face to revolution? What about the American agenda? What about the Aussie agenda? Yeah, let's get thrown out of our homeland for bad behavior and go to some isolated place where our only competition are some dingoes and some backwards natives and take their land and shoot the dingoes and natives alternately for sport? I know this thread will be laced with philosophical debate, but I would like to concentrate on the JFK case. It's an unsolved crime, hence every avenue should be examined. As far as Israel's supposed motivation in killing Kennedy? Yes, I agree...Israel's will to survive was such that IF they felt their backs were against the wall and their ONLY chance for survival was nukes, and IF Kennedy was the SOLE obstacle to their getting nukes, they would have killed him. I believe the answer is yes to all those questions. The entire Piper thesis depends on it. By spring of '63 JFK and Ben Gurion were at loggerheads, more seriously than ever. Piper quotes from Ben-Gurion's biographer Dan Kurzman: "Lonely and depressed, Ben-Gurion felt strangely helpless. Leadership of Israel was slipping from his withered hands....Ben-Gurion began to show signs of paranoia. Enemies were closing in on him from all sides. A mere declaration by Egypt, Syria and Iraq in April 1963 that they would unite and demolish the 'zionist threat' threw him into near panic." After lining up like sheep for Hitler, they'd understandably vowed "never again." However, NONE of these circumstances were true. Kennedy was not a true obstacle. They illicitly developed nukes and faked out the inspectors. Wrong. Kennedy was the only obstacle. They could rely on LBJ to look the other way, which he did. He even looked the other way when the IDF attacked the USS Liberty in '67. In mid-63, the Dimona reactor had not gone critical. That wasn't till two years later. Ben-Gurion, David Bergman and Shimon Peres had put in six years of painstaking wheeling and dealing since construction began in '57. JFK told them to end it or face serious consequences---'it could seriously jeopardise the relationship'. It can be argued that Israel would not have been able to fake out the inspectors had JFK lived. I don't believe there is any indication Kennedy could have prevented that. But, more importantly, there was no pressing need for nukes at that instant in time. Some 4 years later, using only conventional weapons, Israel absolutely obiterated their hostile neighbors. Absolutely destroyed them. Mopped up the floor with them. IMO, only someone with an irrational hatred of Israel would believe that israel was so desperate for nukes in 1964 that they would kill an American President, and risk losing the support of their Ace-in-the-hole, the good will of the American people. With respect, you're looking at it upside down. They mopped up the Arabs in '67 because they had the latest technology US weaponry, courtesy of LBJ. Had JFK lived, they might not have had that weaponry. The Irgun carried out assassinations and terrorist crimes in the 40's and 50's, and you're forgetting that they had many powerful allies in US Government, media, the military, the underworld and intelligence who also wanted JFK dead. It's not as difficult as you think, if you're smart. Maybe you'd have to step into my shoes to understand why I think it's so ridiculous. I was raised Christian but went to school with a number of Jews. Fifty percent of my elementary school friends were Jews. I spent a lot of time in Jewish homes. American Jews are most often Americans first and Jews second. For the most part, they would no sooner harm America to save Israel than an Irish cop would harm America to help Ireland. They think of Israel as their homeland, not as their land. For Israel to harm an American president, it would be risking the good will of not only the American people, but, more specifically, the Jewish-American people. That is unrealistic. That anyone would think that Israel can be ruthless is one thing. That someone would write a whole book whose central thesis holds that Jews are unnecessarily ruthless, and wreckless, and that this nonsensical version of history makes more sense than a book as well-grounded in reality as Larry Hancock's Someone Would Have Talked, or Anthony Summers' Not in Your Lifetime, is another. You're assuming that JFK could not have been assassinated by people purporting to be friends. That's unrealistic, IMO. Israel desperately wanted a closer alliance with the US, which they got right after JFK died. The Israeli leadership could see disaster for their nation unless they developed the nuclear deterrent and had access to modern conventional weaponry. Under JFK they could be guaranteed neither, but with LBJ they were confident of both. Ben-Gurion was obsessed with the security of his country. All he has to do is remove one man. Admittedly, it was high stakes but look at the payoff. Some researchers say the best strategy is to search for the parties who benefitted most from the assassination. Israel was the biggest winner. I know it's a concept that is profoundly disturbing but it's a strong possibility, IMO. History has shown that Israel is ruthless when dealing with enemies and Ben-Gurion's desperation in 1963 was definitely grounded in reality. If someone would explain why Israel felt so incredibly desperate for nukes in 1964 that they would have no other option but to kill Kennedy, I'm willing to listen. How does Piper support that they had no alternative? Does he simply subscribe it to "bloodlust?" Pat Speer, Mark Stapleton's comments to your post highlighted in red above express my views on your points of concern. Let me just add that i felt fortunate to have one of four hundred copies of Larry Hancock's Someone Would Have Talked. The original post at the beginning of this thread was a private email to Larry Hancock and John Simkin requesting clarification of why there was no public discussion of Mr. Pipers book in this Forum or Debra Conway's JFK Lancer Forum. In my opinion, personal attacks on the author charging him with racism, bias, "anti-semitism", and "holocost denier" lead this currently very civil discussion away from a more comprehensive and critical evaluation of whether the state of Israel and their intelligence apparatus, the Mossad, could have had a motive to orchestrate and be active participants in the conpiracy with others to assassinate JFK. In addition, the use of the charge of "anti-semitism" prevented many researchers and authors from even considering a role of Israel in the "crime of the 20th century". They would not like being attacked by US groups in America like AIPAC, ADL, JINSA for any cogent argument that Israel was part of the plot. It is very clear to me that actions and behaviors of the governments of countries like America and Israel are not a true reflection of all of the people and citizens ruled by those governments (or religions and beliefs). For example, the current actions of my government in the Middle East (Iraq and Afghanistan) are not the actions that I personally agree with or support. I'm certain that all the citizens of Israel would not have supported assassination of JFK by the leaders of their government. The motto of the Mossad, "Wage War by Deception", seems to be appropriate to consider by responsible researchers seeking the truth about who killed John F Kennedy in 1963. The charges of "anti-semitism" acted to provide a cover to block responsible discourse on one group of the possible perpetrators of the crime committed 43 years ago. This thread is one possiblity of many other conspiracy theories based upon the facts we know today under the overall heading "JFK Assassination Debate". Thank you for expressing your views clearly and rationally, Mr Speer. Another thank you to Mark Stapleton, Sid Walker, and Andy Walker. Jeff D.

Sid, You have just encapsulated very succinctly in your post why considering that Israel's motive for self preservation by developing and possessing the awsome power of a nuclear weapon to fend off the massive might of all their hostile Arab neighbors. Ben Gurian clearly felt that JFK's opposition to Israel's research at Dimona, threatened the survival of his entire young nation. The survival motive of an entire Jewish nation could be considered greater than the motives of revenge attributed to the mafia, Castro, Cubans, the CIA, Federal Reserve bankers, Texas oilmen, LBJ, Nixon, GHW Bush, etc. Your response was precisely the types of thoughtful analysis my quote from Mark Glenn was intended to elicit. Thank you. Andy Walker, I'm sorry to have caused you to "start the day with a link to a site of such sickening and easy racism". My hope was to diffuse the hysterical angry commentary the last time we discussed this book. I happen to find all of Mark Glenns essays and books to be compelling and persuasive. He comes from a devout Christian of Lebanese heritage and only started writing a few (5) years ago. I'm impressed that you expressed a willingness to visit and read some of his other essays posted on his website www.crescentand cross.com. Pat Speer, Thank you for your comments and post about Mark Glenn's discussion of "anti-semitism". Do you find Sid Walker's discussion more compelling. I was personally impressed with Sid's post and analysis. Jeff D.

At the risk of reigniting the hysterical previous non-debate of Piper's thesis in Final Judgement from 8 months ago, please consider this thought provoking article written by Mark Glenn concerning "anti-semitism". The points presented in this article, upon careful reflection, has lead me to the conclusion that I "might be anti-semitic". Examine these points and ask yourself, if you might fall into the same category. After your reflection on these questions, then consider with as open a mind as possible whether Mr. Piper has presented a credible, well documented case explaining this still unsolved crime (JFK's murder). <Personal note: My entire career in shopping center development and finance includes close personal relationships with a wide variety of men and women that are devout members of the Jewish faith. It is difficult to separate these close relationships with my Jewish friends from the possibility of defining my perspective of history and current world events as "anti-semitic". Final personal note: I'm glad to see that Mark Stapleton is still active in these forums and submitting well reasoned comments on this thread and topic.> http://www.crescentandcross.com/index.php?...e1=you_might_be You Might Be An Anti-Semite If... ...You think that Jesus was a good guy who had some important things to say about peace on earth, human rights and respect for your fellow man... ...You think that the idea of one select group of people, the Jews, being a ‘master race’ who are ‘destined to rule the world with a rod of iron’ is a bunch of nonsense... ...You think that exterminating over a billion Muslims just because they dared to prevent their centuries-old culture from being conquered by the multi-headed beast of Zionism might not be such a good idea... ...You reject the popular notion that Islam is a religion of war and instead after some study find it to be a religion of peace that holds Jesus and his mother in the highest esteem and find that the Qur’an possesses some of the most beautiful religious verse ever written... ...You believe that Judaism’s Holiest Book, the Talmud, has an anti-Gentile and anti-Christian flavor to it, and that all of that stuff contained in it about Judas being a hero, about Mary being a prostitute and about Jesus being a sorcerer who is burning in Hell are just a few of the many reasons why there have been anti-Jewish sentiments throughout history... ...You think that the world’s most powerful nations, particularly those in the West, are controlled by individuals who are religious fanatics devoted to implementing some farcical, whacked-out conspiracy theory called the ‘Zionist agenda’... ...You think that the land of Palestine was once inhabited by a group of people called ‘the Palestinians’ who actually lived there for 2,000 years, and further, that this mythical group of people called ‘the Palestinians’ deserve this thing known as ‘dignity’ and that they are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, and that among these inalienable rights are ‘life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness’... ...You believe that Islam and Christianity have much in common with each other and that this whole ‘clash of civilizations’ much discussed by Jewish supremacists such as Daniel Pipes, Bernard Lewis and many others is just an attempt to get the peoples of the Christian and Muslim worlds at each other’s throats so that in the end Zionism will reign supreme... ...You think that the idea of evicting a Christian or Muslim family living in Palestine from their home at gunpoint so that some New York-born Jewish pornographer can move in and take their place is not necessarily a moral thing to do... ...You think that when Jesus called the Pharisees ‘a brood of vipers’ and ‘children of the devil’ he was trying to warn future generations about the danger of the Jewish agenda, and that when he said ‘you cannot pour new wine into old wineskins’ what he was trying to say was that there was no such thing as ‘Judeo-Christianity’... ...You think that the leer jet given to Christian Zionist preacher Jerry Falwell by the state of Israel was a payback for all the hard work he has done in deluding American Christians into believing that it was all ‘God’s plan’ that millions of atheist Jews from Russia and eastern Europe occupy Palestine, the very birthplace of Jesus, and that the million-dollar salaries that his cohorts receive—Pat Robertson, John Hagee and Tim LaHaye are all part of that big payoff as well... ...You think that nuclear weapons being in the hands of religious fundamentalists who possess a messianic mindset and who nurse a fanatical hatred for people of other religions besides their own is a recipe for disaster, and you’re not talking about Iran but rather Israel... ...You think that the solution to the age old ‘Jewish question’ is for the Jews to quit seeing themselves as ‘the Chosen people’ and to make an honest attempt at treating others with the same kind of respect that they themselves demand from the rest of mankind... ...You think that the recent uproar in Europe over the cartoon depictions of the Prophet Mohammed done by a Jewish supremacist named Rosen was a deliberate attempt on the part of the Zionist agenda to further enflame tensions between the Christian and Islamic worlds... ...You believe that men with names such as Wolfowitz, Pearle, Ledeen, Abrams, Feith, and Libby who held high positions of influence in the Bush administration counseled the President into going to war in the Middle East and that they lied about Iraq’s weapons of Mass Destruction and that they did all of this for the furtherance of fighting Israel’s enemies... ...You believe that the current spy investigation with regards to AIPAC, the American Israel Public Affairs Committee is in the best interests of America’s national security and that it is not all just an attempt to unfairly smear Jews and taint them with the charge of being more loyal to the Israeli agenda than to what are the best interests of their own country of America... ...You believe that men such as Lenin, Trotsky, Zinoviev, Berea and the other revolutionaries of Bolshevik Russia who were responsible for murdering tens of millions of people originally had names such as Bronstein, Apfelbaum, Rosenfeld, Sobelsohn and many others of similar stripe and then changed them in an effort to hide the fact that they were Jewish, and you do so after having read about all of it in something called the Jewish Encyclopedia... ...You believe that the remark recently made by one of Israel’s Military advisors that the Zionist nation could ‘strike all the capitals of the West with nuclear weapons’ should be seen as clear and present danger, and particularly after considering that Israel’s nuclear policy has always contained within it something known as ‘The Sampson Option’ which calls for the nuclear annihilation of all Christian and Muslim countries in the event that Israel is about to ‘go under’... ...You think that all of this business concerning ‘the rapture’ wherein ‘believers’ (meaning self-described Christian Zionists) who support this very un-Christian agenda known as Zionism will be rewarded for siding with the enemies of Christ’s message by being physically taken into heaven is just a little bit over-the edge... ...You believe the testimony given by a man named Victor Ostrovsky, ex-Israeli intelligence officer working for the Mossad who wrote in his two books ‘By Way of Deception’ and ‘The Other Side of Deception’ that the Israelis were planning to assassinate President George Herbert Walker Bush at the Madrid peace conference in 1991 in order to blame it on Palestinian terrorists was probably true... ...You believe that those 100 or so Israeli agents who were arrested in the wake of 9/11 in incriminating circumstances such as cheering at the destruction of the Twin Towers knew something about it beforehand and that all the jumping up and down and hollering that was taking place wasn’t all part of an out-of-the-way Bar-Mitzvah celebration... ...You believe that Americans are not obligated to sacrifice the lives of their children, their paychecks, and their security so that Israel can continue to exist like a cancer in the Middle East... ...You believe that Israel had something to do with the anthrax attacks in 2001, and that the chief suspect in it, a Zionist Jew who worked for the US Army Weapons lab, did it all for the purpose of blaming the Arabs and further inciting the American people into supporting the war against Israel’s enemies... ...You believe that the attack on the USS Liberty in 1967 was a deliberate act on the part of the Israelis in order to drag the US into the Six Day War on their side and that after 8 hours of low-level overflights they did not really mistake what was the most advanced intelligence-gathering ship in the world at that time for an Egyptian Horse ferry that was built at the turn of the previous century... ...You believe that the surviving members of the USS Liberty who testified about what took place on that day in which 34 of their fellow US servicemen were killed and almost 200 wounded did so because they were loyal Americans who had a duty to tell the truth and that whatever their feelings about Jews might have been had little or nothing to do with it... ...You believe that Israel was responsible for the assassination of President Kennedy as a result of his opposition to her acquiring nuclear weapons and that the assassination of his brother Robert by a ‘Palestinian terrorist’ named Sirhan Sirhan was just another of Israel’s many ‘False Flag Operations’... ...You believe the press reports that were published in Israel boasting of the involvement of Israeli intelligence with the blackmailing of President Clinton through a sex scandal involving a young Jewess named Monica Lewinsky ... ...You believe the press reports published in Israel admitting to the existence of an Israeli-engineered biological weapon referred to as ‘the ethnic bomb’ that is designed to target specific genetically-disposed peoples such as those of Arabic descent... ...You believe that there is an agenda to silence critics of Israel by threatening individuals for speaking out with loss of employment or imprisonment and particularly those who dare to question the mechanics of what happened during the Holocaust... ...You believe that there is this thing known as the Jewish Defense League that remains to this day on the FBI’s top-ten list of most dangerous terrorist organizations and that several of its members have been convicted recently for their involvement in plotting to blow up the office of US Representative Daryl Issa, a Congressman of Middle Eastern descent ... ...You believe that a man named Dr Rudolph Kastner, an important official who once worked for the World Zionist Organization conspired with the Nazis to subject the Jews of Europe to a program of persecution and suffering in order to further the agenda of creating a ‘Jewish homeland’ in Palestine... ...You believe the press reports coming out of Israel which quoted Prime Minister Ariel Sharon as having said to cabinet minister Shimon Peres ‘not to worry about American pressure on Israel,’ since ‘we, the Jewish people control America and the Americans know it’... ...You believe that the peoples of Iraq and Palestine have the right to defend their homelands against a foreign invasion, including the use of violence and that what they are doing today is no different than what American patriots did some 200 years ago in fighting for their freedom against a foreign, occupying power... ...You believe that indeed the prophecies found in the Book of Revelations are real and that they are being played out in our own time, but that the description of the Beast who ‘received a fatal wound to the head and yet lived’ refers neither to Saddam Hussein nor Mahmoud Ahmadi-Nejad, but rather to Ariel Sharon and his recent stroke... ...You believe that the recent declaration by the Catholic Church that ‘Judas did nothing wrong in betraying Jesus, and that mankind owes him a great debt for having fulfilled God’s prophecy’ is in fact an attempt on the part of a Zionist-occupied Vatican to appease the Jewish agenda... ...You thought that the ‘Passion of the Christ’ was worth an artistic award of some type but refused to see ‘The Last Temptation of Christ’ out of principle... ...You think that the insistence on the part of Rabbi David Feldman from the group ‘Jews Against Anti-Semitism’ that Mel Gibson be arrested and tried as a terrorist under the provisions of the Patriot Act for having made the movie ‘The Passion of the Christ’ would be a violation of his right to free speech ... ...You think that the business of calling Muslims and others from the Middle East ‘rag-heads, sand niggers and hajjis’ is racist in its nature... ...You believe that Israeli Intelligence was involved with the Abu Ghraib prison torture scandal after seeing an AP photo of a Mossad officer at the facility sporting a Star of David Tattoo on his left shoulder... ...You do not believe that the invasion and occupation of Iraq was all about finding Weapons of Mass Destruction and you are confident that you are correct when 3 years later none have been found... ...You believe that Israel intends to take over all the land between the Nile and the Euphrates rivers after reading some comments from the Founding Fathers of Zionism wherein they speak of this thing called ‘Greater Israel’ that just happens to lie between the Nile and the Euphrates rivers... ...You believe that the Jews should be held to the same standards as every other human being without being given any preferential treatment that might exonerate or in other ways cover up what has been a dark history on their part of brutality and duplicity against other peoples, and that indeed the whole idea of there being a ‘chosen race’ of people is as stupid as was the flat-earth theory that in previous centuries impeded so much of mankind’s development ... Yes, indeed you might be an anti-Semite if you believe just one of these forbidden items... ...But then again, maybe you’re not.

The above posts 334, 335, 336, 337 by apparently informed and open minded truth seekers concerning the death of JFK are refreshing. After completing Mr. Pipers book and occasionally listening to his RBN internet radio show it is apparent to me that Final Judgement presents a credible thesis explaining the events and causes for the death of JFK that sunny morning in Dealey Plaza. It has been almost 8 months since the hysterical discussions on this forum concerning Mr. Pipers book stopped. Hopefully, the opponents of Final Judgement have taken the time to actually read the book, like these recent posters. I would welcome anyone's posts that can provide "credible" evidence in the record that cantradicts this thesis that the Mossad and their Zionist sympathizers tried to secure nuclear weapons too defend themselves in the midst of a hostile Arab and Muslim region, opposed by JFK, had a motive to have him killed and silenced.v If this post and the others referenced are considered anti-semitic and challenged on that basis, then we may have to wait for another 8 to 10 months for a civil debate on this thread. Since I joined this forum out of curiosity about whether the crime of the 20th century had been resolved and the truth about Kennedy's killers had been determined, now 43 years later, I have turned my curiosity to the sinister and more relevant crime of the 21st century, the terrorist attack in NYC and Washington on September 11, 2001. My conclusions about 9/11 are that it was an "inside job" from the title of JFK researcher Jim Marrs book Crossfire. It appears to me that there are many similarities in Piper's thesis to our current geopolitical situation unfolding in the Middle East with sabre rattling from Washington DC against Iran's peaceful ambition to acquire nuclear energy and/or nuclear weapons. The Iraq war was launched based upon 9/11 and the fearr of Saddam's ability to set off a nuclear bomb in the heart of Israel. After JFK's death, Israel is the primary country in the Middle East with nuclear weapons and the potential willingness to use them in the "Sampson" scenario or the currently discussed nuclear strike on Iran's underground research facilites (with bunker buster, B61-11 bombs in Israel's arsenal and tactical nukes per Cheney's CONPLAN 8002).

Michael, Have the letters from JFK and Ben Gurion concerning their nuclear weapons program in Israel been released from the archives? Any hard evidence that Ben Gurion took any actions concerning JFK after he resigned? Didn't Mordechi Vanunu, recently released from 18 years in prison in Israel, disclose that Mossad was involved in JFK's murder prior to his being incarcerated again? Mr. Vanunu was involved in the Israeli development of nuclear weapons and his disclosure of their program was the original reason for his being sent to prison. Are there still records concerning the assassination of JFK that are still classified and therefore not released concerning the relationships of the CIA and Mossad in relation to the assassination? In other words, is the special relationship with Israel today, perhaps preventing historical archived evidence that is supposed to be released to the public, still being withheld? It's interesting that James Jesus Angleton headed the CIA's ZR/RIFLE team and Yitshak Shamir headed the Mossad assassination teams before becoming Prime Minister. Any connection there? Gerry Hemming is a forum member, perhaps he can comment on your theory concerning Frank Sturges. Jeff D.

Forum Member's: Has anyone emailed Piper to request a free copy of his book? Just curious about the intellectual curiosity of JFK researchers here. I have to admit that after reading up to half way through chapter five, I'm still looking for substantiated hard evidence about Mossad invoilvement? Has anyone read either of the two chapter's that Piper posted from his book for members to read as part of the substantial issues raised? Jeff D.

Forum Member's: Has anyone emailed Piper to request a free copy of his book? Just curious about the intellectual curiosity of JFK researchers here. I have to admit that after reading up to half way through chapter five, I'm still looking for substantiated hard evidence about Mossad invoilvement? Has anyone read either of the two chapter's that Piper posted from his book for members to read as part of the substantial issues raised? Jeff D.

Ron, Yitzhak Rabin's assassination is discussed on pages 417-420 in the 10th Appendix titled Israel's Dark Side of the Sixth Edition of Final Judgement. The primary point is, if Israeli's can discuss the assassination of their own leaders by Mossad, why not be open to JFK assassination by Mossad in the USA? Both of these forum threads on Mr. Piper's book demonstrate that this topic is NOT covered by the first ammendment in the USA and common courtesy is totally irrelavent for truth seekers when it comes to Israel's actions. Jeff D.

Forum Numbers: There are approximately 2,400 posted threads on this Furum. There are 12 pages already on this thread (Piper's "Final Judgement"). Only 8 other threads are 12 or more pages in length, and not one word yet from the author of the thesis that the Mossad/Israel was involved in killing JFK. It might be a better discussion if more commentators had actually read Piper's thesis. I would feel better, if I had read the book, to judge whether it has merit or deserves consideration. I respect that Tim has at least read the book (1994 version?). I provided those quotes from Ariel Sharon and others in answer to Len's pressure to acknowledge accepting his statement summarizing my views and Piper's views as extreme, hateful, and racist. They were quotes that I thought were true and relavent. I do not personally know Mr. Piper, he was kind enough to respond to an email (a forward of my original email to John S. that started this discussion) and a telephone message which was provided to John Simkin in this thread, yesterday. Anyone here can call him just like I did. He has answers to many issues discussed here, like why is his book is not widely available in libraries and some main stream book stores. I am not Mr. Piper's advocate or mouthpiece in any way. I have read his book "High Priests of War" which addresses the Neoconservative Zionist movement in our government which has taken over the Republican party which I now disavow, taking the US into an ever widening war in the Middle-Far East. I also recently subscribed to the online version of the AFP, partly because I'm not satisfied with the news provided by my mainstream media. I used to be "Hannitized" and a "Ditto Head". Not anymore, my eyes are wide open and I want answers, not lies, propaganda, and distortions of the truth. Mr. Piper has been reading this discussion and will endeaver to address anyone's opinions about JFK's assassination and who he thinks was responsible based upon his research as opposed to anti-Israeli bias, as soon as his membership is processed and he is capable of posting his thoughts, evidence, and opinions about what is known and not known. I am not promoting his book, I just want to read what he says, and would hope that more members of this Forum knew what precisely he has written to challenge his facts, and/or thesis. Jeff D.

Len, In those two previous posts I was suggesting that it would be better to tone down the inflammatory and hateful rhetoric concerning the possibility that there might be Israeli/Mossad complicity in the JFK assassination. I empathize with your pain of having your ancestors slaughtered in the holocost. Loss of innocent lives is atrocious and I don't have a dog in your fight about holocost deniers. When I got out of the USAF I toured Europe and visited the concentration camps at Dacchau and Auschwitz. It was abhorent to me as a concerned human being that the cruelty and horror took place under Hitlers regime in these death camps during WW II. My words in response to your question are not important as to yes or no to your attempt to label me as a bigoted and prejudiced monster your statement. You are attributing that view to the wrong persons in this thread when you say it is the party line of the neo-Fascist Nazi/Klan friendly ultra-right such as Piper and his "newspaper" the American Free Press. Consider the following quote: “I want to tell you something very clear, don’t worry about American pressure on Israel, we, the Jewish people control America, and the Americans know it.” —Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to cabinet member Shimon Peres, October 3rd, 2001, as reported on Kol Y’Israel radio. Here is another from Mr. Sharon: “We are Judeo-Nazis, and why not? If your nice, civilized parents, rather than writing books about their love for humanity had instead come to Israel and killed six million Arabs, what would have happened? Sure, two or three nasty pages would have been written in the history books, and we would have been called all sorts of names, but we would be here today as a people of 25 million! What you don’t seem to understand is that the dirty work of Zionism is not finished yet, far from it.” —Ariel Sharon, 1982 Here is the view of a US Senator: “Israel controls the United States Senate. Around 80 percent are completely in support of Israel; anything Israel wants it gets. Jewish influence in the House of Representatives is even greater.” - United States Senator William Fulbright And a US Congressman has this to say on the topic of this Forum: “It is interesting, but not surprising, to note that in all the words written and uttered about the Kennedy assassination, Israel’s intelligence service agency, the Mossad, has never been mentioned. And yet a Mossad motive is obvious. On this question, as on almost all others, American reporters cannot bring themselves to cast Israel in an unfavorable light - despite the fact that Mossad complicity is as plausible as any of the other theories.” —US Representative Paul Findley, March 1992

Len, My post #94 addresses your question in which I urged all participants in this thread to be honest, open minded, and willing to consider the possibilty that Piper may be right about Mossad/Israeli involvement in JFK's murder. There is a post in this thread that discusses one library's being barred from ordering copies of "Final Judgement" due to objections from the ADL, but Mr. Piper himself may be able to address the question of why his book is so difficult to find in America. As for Zionist control of American foreign policies in the Middle East, I would recommend "Neoconned" and "Neoconned, Again" which are collections of articles from very reputable researchers including some authors that are retired from the CIA and responsible military services. You might also look at Mr. Piper's "High Priests of War". My question and suggestion for Len, Tim, and the others that are so upset about hearing the comments from an author like Mr. Piper is to obtain for yourselves a copy of this book and read what he says so you can more intelligently respond to the author's evidence. The Neoconservatives that have hijacked the Republican party have aligned themselves with the motives and policy directives of Israel from my perspective. Their policy objectives and position papers were written for Benjamin Netanyehu. The Project for a New American Century (PNAC) was advocating war in the Middle East since early in the 1990's and includes Bill Kristol, Richard Perle, Don Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, Scooter Libby, Jeb Bush and a large cast of like minded characters in control of our policies and on the Boards of Directors of our major defense contractors. The question is why does the United States provide Israel $5-$6 Billion in aid and weapon systems (including nuclear weapons that are considered "safe for civilians") and now we consider witholding $250 Million for the Palestinians when Hamas wins a democratic election in their country or territory? Who knows how many private donations are raised in the US for Israel, and why do we have dual citizenship status with Israel and not with any Arab countries? Terrorism is coming from both sides of this Arab-Israeli question and it seems to me that we have a double standard here in America towards the Middle East. When I studied the Middle East at Stanford, my primary professor was Christina Harris, a Deputy Secretary in the State Department when Israel was recognized by the US, and another that was the curator of the Middle East collection at the Hoover Intitute of War Revolution and Peace. The hysteria in this thread about anti-semitism was not the issues we considered. The issues were to find compromises that would allow two different religions (plus Christians) to live side by side and stop the violence and terrorism from both sides. At that time (class of '68), we were not waging pre-emptive war in East Asia and sabre rattling with pending nuclear attacks on Iran to control oil and shipping lanes. Again, I have not read Mr. Piper's book and would recommend that all members of this Forum posting their comments here, obtain a current copy (Sixth Edition) to discuss with the author when he is able to address all concerns of this discussion. Drop the labels and consider the thesis and evidence presented. I know for some, that is a tall order. As far as I have been able to determine, the assassination of JFK is still not a solved crime, and it is far from clear to me why a "banned book" on the subject should be discounted for reasons unrelated to it's merits. Jeff D.

He is welcome to join. Do you have his contact details? Michael Collins Piper tells me he will be joining this discussion. Gary, Your post that Mr. Piper will be joining this discussion is welcome news, indeed. It is always refreshing and informative for me to hear directly from the author of a book, even when it is controversial, why and how he came to his conclusions. We might even learn some actual hard evidence that supports his contentions that are new since the book has been published. After being able to read one of the first rare editions of Larry Hancock's book, Someone Would Have Talked, I enjoyed direct email conversation with Larry and others fimiliar with his research on this Forum. Another person that would be great to have join the discussions on this Forum is Billie Sol Estes to share what he knows about the events surrounding JFK's murder. Tim and Len, my interest in emailing John Simkin about Michael Collin Piper's book Final Judgement was because I had ordered the book on the internet and was waiting for it to be shipped to begin reading what he has to say. While I was waiting for my copy to arrive, I thought I might browse the book either at my local and county library or in the local national book stores, but was disappointed there were none to be found while I wait for mine to arrive. I did know that several sources had access to used copies, Tim. But I was looking for the latest revised Sixth Edition. In addition, I was looking for intelligent discussion of the book by others here on this forum that had read Mr. Piper's thesis and had a critical evaluation or comments about it's credibility in comparison with other researchers on the topic of this Forum, the Assissination of JFK. Honesty, open mindedness, and willingness to see the other man's point of view might be helpful in the balance of the discussion in this thread. Jeff D.

Jeff, what do you mean by "If the JFK assassination was a military operation similar to the 9/11 attacks...." You're not suggesting that the US military had anything to do with the downing of the World Trade Center towers or the Pentagon attack, or the aborted attempt to bomb the Capitol building, are you? Roy Bierma Roy, My short answer to your question is ... YES. Why? There were too many mistakes made on 9/11 by the perpetrators in order to launch the "global war on terrorism". I don't think America can wait to figure out who did it for 42 years like the JFK Assassination. The murderous traitors in our government that did 9/11 are still not disclosed to the citizens of this country, they are still in power, and they will certainly do it again to create more "terror". Perhaps a small 10 kiloton nuclear weapon in Los Angeles blamed again on an unsuspecting Islamic Jihadist group in Iran to launch all out nuclear war and more fear induced abridgement of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. How could the most powerful military defense in the world not intercept four "hijacked planes" flying in our airspace for 45 minutes to an hour? There were two squadrons of F-16's and F-15's on alert at Andrews AFB that should have been airborne in minutes. What were those military drills and war games about on 9/11? Vigilant Guardian, Vigilant Warrior, Tripod II, etc? One of the drils was a simulated jetliner hijacked and flown into the CIA headquarters on 9/11. Why did Condi Rice testify (lie) under oath at the 9/11 Commission that they had no idea about an attack from inside the USA? How could the most secure building in the US with extensive video surveilance (Pentagon) be struck by a large 757 flown by an arab hijacker pilot that was not qualified to fly a cessna 172 after executing a 270 degree immelman like maneuver from 7,000 feet? Why was there no 757 jetliner parts in the damaged Pentagon and where are the surveilance videos of the event? How did 7 of the FBI's 19 arab hijackers survive their suicide missions? Why was there no Fight 93 - 757 jetliner wreckage in the burning crater in Shanksville, PA? If the two World Trade Center tower collapses were not caused by preplanted explosives detonated with precise military timing, how did they collapse in 10 seconds or the same speed as free fall due to gravity? How were massive steel beams blown 300 feet out and up during the tower's collapse? Why did the 47 story steel framed WTC building 7 collapse at 5:30 pm on 9/11, since no hijacked suicide bomber terrorist hit that building? Tenants in the WTC #7 were the Defense Department, Secret Service, CIA, IRS and Mayor Guliani's 23rd Floor, self contained OEM Office with bullet/explosive proof windows and a seperate self enclosed power and air supply. How did so many witnesses and first responders in the WTC from the FDNY FDPD, Harbor Patrol hear, feel, and see the explosions in the WTC Towers? 9/11 was an "Inside Job" as outlined by one of our favorite JFK assassination authers, Jim Marrs. The US military had to be involved and the number of conspirators, moles, and patsies was VERY large. Should I have simply stopped with my short answer, Roy? Jeff D.

John S., Mr. Piper is a regular contributor for the American Free Press (www.amaericanfreepress.net) and his contact information published in his book The High Priests of War is as follows: Michael Collins Piper P.O. Box 15728 Washington, DC 20003 Email: piperm@lycos.com Tel: (202) 544-5977 Jeff D.

Mark S., I recall you posted last year about the possibility aerial photos of DP had been taken in preparation for November 22. Have you heard any more on this and what was your source?