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The Phil Ochs Question


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Phil offers support to Bobby:

http://www.mdah.state.ms.us/arlib/contents...35|1|1|1|16353|

Song by Phil in MSC files:

"..if you drag her muddy waters

nameless bodies you will find..."

(image: po01)

Edited by John Dolva
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Well I'll be... they do work and I got more of um too.

Phil wore the same jacket at newport 64.

Hi Jim,

Glad you started a new thread on this.

I didn't know Phil Ochs, but I think we were busted together in Chicago in '68 at the Democratic National Convention.

It was the last night of a week of demonstrations and riots, and those of us who were on McCarthy's national staff were sitting around the McCarthy rooms of the Conrad Hilton Hotel. Someone handed me a drink of whiskey and water and mentioned to me that it was Phil Ochs who was playing guitar and singing in the hall nearby.

About an hour later I laid down to sleep only to be awakened by a rush of Chicago police breaking heads with billy clubs in a celebrated raid that ended with a bunch of us under arrest. I was only 17 years old, a high school junior who later went to the University of Dayton, Ohio, where there was manditory ROTC for freshmen until discontinued the year I arrived.

The campus ROTC were notorious for being informants against radical agitators protesting the Vietnam war.

While I never crossed paths with Phil Ochs again, I believe it was him in Chicago, and was saddened when I learned he had died.

I am quite surprised that he was at Dealey Plaza too.

You say that he returned on a flight from Dallas with a cameramen who was returning to England?

Do you know the name of the cameramen and what became of his film?

Also, did you ever go to Newport?

Thanks for sharing your Phil Ochs stories,

Bill Kelly

Thanks Bill,

THat is great then you will like this article a fellow researcher, Craig in NYC, sent me and it tells about how Phil and you got busted in the windy City....While Jean and I were singin at the Quiet Knight on Wells street and Phil , Abby and Jerry came in to see us one night that wasn't so Quiet.....

http://www.bigbridge.org/issue9/ochsesanders.htm

I never went to Newport but Phil gave me his song books and stuff and the picture of him sittin under a tree stummun his guitar with his favorite jacket....was at Newport,,,,,I lost the little pop up that gave me your message but You know I have tried to find out about the photographer and it makes me kind of pissed.

I mean Phil wrote Crucifixion after he got back from England and told me it was too dangerous to talk about the JFK stuff that we knew but I wonder If he was also trying to find out where the cameraman...was that all he was? or ...You know...This stuff is still a mystery but my investigation is still alive...

So Please volunteer for the Folk Intelligence Bureau and viola....

I couldn't get any info from Bill Curtis but of course you can't get through to big stars anyway... the media is pretty controlled and just like Iraq they would be embarrassed but when they covered up JFK...now that was the start of the MO of lies of these guys in power now and the beat goes on.....

I'll just get back ...to the forum....but since it is all connected....Thanks for the questions

I asked for this didn't I?

But I believe the DVD of the men who killed Kennedy is a famous British film maker....I got that impression anyway.

Whew.....Jim

Hey...I got Beer!!!!

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Phil offers support to Bobby:

http://www.mdah.state.ms.us/arlib/contents...35|1|1|1|16353|

Song by Phil in MSC files:

"..if you drag her muddy waters

nameless bodies you will find..."

(image: po01)

Yes thanks John,

We now have record also that he met with Bobby and sang Cruxifixiion (JFK) twice ...Once on a plane which would be ideal to defeat Bugs and the article by Ed Saunders about at the convention.

I think Phil told Bobby that he was there and Bobby decided to keep it all secret until he won back the white House!

It still is gonna take a president to open it all up.

Jim

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Sorry, I misquoted Ed Saunders above.

They got together at RFK's Senate Office which now I am sure that He would think was bugged.

Jim, you don't by any chance mean Ed Sanders of the Fugs, do you?

Ed's book on Manson was far superior to Bugliosi's. He actually did some deep investigative work - unlike Bugliosi who merely presented what he needed to present as a prosecutor... that is, a conviction didn't require deep background work.

I bet Ed could write a better book on the assassination, too.

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I wonder if he was murdered.

Kathy

Hi Kathy,

Good Questions.

The Photo of Bush in front of the Book Depository sure looks just like him and I found some from the Parkland Hospital that look just like him also but it is mostly from the back and just a little to the side.

Jim

Jim, if you are able to, could you post the photos of Bush at Parkland?

Kathy

I well give it a shot...

post-5699-1181445653_thumb.jpg

post-5699-1181445529_thumb.jpg

Look Familiar folks?

Notice the bulge above his left shoulder....It seems the cordinators had there own frequency.

Now I could be leapin in logic here but

When I first sent them to Gary at the 6th floor museam, he said the man was too short to be Bush.

A friend of mine in Detroit calculated the height of the Police car and the curb he propbaly would be standing on and said the man was 6 feet 2" ...a match there.

Then he said it was a another guy he knew but never came up with the name.

He said he would ask George Bush for the museam What he was doin in Dallas when he told the FBI about the possible student threat to Kennedy when Bush says Please keep this confidential and I am on my way to Dallas".

I can't recall would be typical.

Jim

Thanks for posting these pictures, Jim. At this time, I'm not convinced that it's George Bush Sr. I'd like others' opinions -- the photo experts.

Kathy

I'm not convinced it's him either. Whereas the photo of the man in front of the TSBD really looks like him.

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Is this the Phil Ochs you're talking about?

"Phil Ochs just happened to be touring Africa when a native "robber" jumped after him and cut his throat so that it affected his singing? The most political symbol of protest against the war in Vietnam, songwriter for Bob Dylan, Joan Baez, and many others, is selected from millions of U.S. tourists for assault to his vocal chords."

http://www.maebrussell.com/Mae%20Brussell%...on%20Chaos.html

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Sorry, I misquoted Ed Saunders above.

They got together at RFK's Senate Office which now I am sure that He would think was bugged.

Jim, you don't by any chance mean Ed Sanders of the Fugs, do you?

Ed's book on Manson was far superior to Bugliosi's. He actually did some deep investigative work - unlike Bugliosi who merely presented what he needed to present as a prosecutor... that is, a conviction didn't require deep background work.

I bet Ed could write a better book on the assassination, too.

Yes Greg, I asked the same question to my friend Graig who found it and he didn't think it was the Fugs's Ed.

But I know this article is right on because he describes Phil better than any writer so far.

The Fugs Ed had a crush on Jean at the Cafe A go go....in the Village.

I picked up Charlie Manson and two of his girl friends in my Volkswagen bus.

It was when they were casing out our little neighborhood...Topanga Canyon.

I was lucky they got out and that I did not tell him where I lived but not before he told me his whole life story...in prison and about his new record being produced by the Beach Boys.....

I've had a few close calls.

Bugliosi is a stooge for the cover-up.

But I think we can turn him in the end.

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Kathy

I'm not convinced it's him either. Whereas the photo of the man in front of the TSBD really looks like him.

Well Kathy,

You may be right...The thing that amazed me about the one in front of the TBDB is it showed the torpedo shape of George's head...even from the side and the characteristic way he has his hands in his pockets...his childhood picture where he looks like actor Brandon Dedwilde in Shane.

I think the research community were hiding this one from me cause everybody including the FBI knew I was looking for him.

I still want the identity of both for history.

I tried to compare the two photos of the Bush Doubles in Dealy and Parkland and well somebody tell me if they are different..

I mean George tells the FBI he is on his way to Dallas and I don't think he had time to change his clothes.. it is a short hop from Dealy to Parkland.

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Is this the Phil Ochs you're talking about?

"Phil Ochs just happened to be touring Africa when a native "robber" jumped after him and cut his throat so that it affected his singing? The most political symbol of protest against the war in Vietnam, songwriter for Bob Dylan, Joan Baez, and many others, is selected from millions of U.S. tourists for assault to his vocal chords."

http://www.maebrussell.com/Mae%20Brussell%...on%20Chaos.html

I am so glad you brought this up Myra,

Yes there is only one Phil Ochs in this world.

The writers got it wrong because Phil told me he was jumped and strangled but the thing that freaked him out the most was that they did not take his money or wallet or passport...only his knife.

That my dear is a psy ops message.

Phil got it.

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Phil offers support to Bobby:

http://www.mdah.state.ms.us/arlib/contents...35|1|1|1|16353|

Song by Phil in MSC files:

"..if you drag her muddy waters

nameless bodies you will find..."

(image: po01)

Thanks John for that amazing doc.

so by April, Phil is supporting Bobby..like they are gonna be brothers.

And Here the Huac, which Ironically RFK got his start workin for, are still tryin to keep the Lincoln Brigade that Hemingway wrote about the "Premature Fascists" on the enemies list. The Lincoln Brigade had a lots of marxists in the ranks as well as other freedom fighters who knew they had to stop the Fascists that Hitler Mousillini and Henry Ford and Prescott Bush were backing with big arms and banking deals.

I found your thread on the hidden meaning of Hidell....very interesting.

we know that Dulles had a program of false defectors and legends....I doubt that Lee ever met his Double...He would have ran back to Russia.

Thanks, Jim

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Is this the Phil Ochs you're talking about?

"Phil Ochs just happened to be touring Africa when a native "robber" jumped after him and cut his throat so that it affected his singing? The most political symbol of protest against the war in Vietnam, songwriter for Bob Dylan, Joan Baez, and many others, is selected from millions of U.S. tourists for assault to his vocal chords."

http://www.maebrussell.com/Mae%20Brussell%...on%20Chaos.html

I am so glad you brought this up Myra,

Yes there is only one Phil Ochs in this world.

The writers got it wrong because Phil told me he was jumped and strangled but the thing that freaked him out the most was that they did not take his money or wallet or passport...only his knife.

That my dear is a psy ops message.

Phil got it.

Thanks Jim.

What, if anything, did Phil change about his life/career/songwriting/performing after he got the psy-ops message of the attack? Are you aware of other such attacks on prominent artists of the era?

I'm starting to understand the true nature of the CIA's Operation CHAOS (for a while in conjunction with the FBI's COINTELPRO), and leaning towards believing that it targeted singers and songwriters. Then again I've long been convinced that the gov't murdered John Lennon so I don't need much convincing.

June 16 - 18: The Monterey International Pop Music Festival takes place. Over 200,000 people attend. It is often regarded as the precursor to Woodstock. It likely alarms both the FBI & the CIA. David Crosby, of the Byrds, tells the crowd that the Warren Report is a lie & that JFK was killed by many guns in a conspiracy. He then dedicates a song, "He Was a Friend of Mine," to him.

August: LBJ dramatically boosts CIA's illegal spying on US citizens, ongoing since 1959, so he can keep tabs on anti-war activists. The program will soon be named Operation CHAOS.

FBI's COINTELPRO program is ongoing at that point.

Edited by Myra Bronstein
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Thanks Jim.

What, if anything, did Phil change about his life/career/songwriting/performing after he got the psy-ops message of the attack? Are you aware of other such attacks on prominent artists of the era?

I'm starting to understand the true nature of the CIA's Operation CHAOS (for a while in conjunction with the FBI's COINTELPRO), and leaning towards believing that it targeted singers and songwriters. Then again I've long been convinced that the gov't murdered John Lennon so I don't need much convincing.

June 16 - 18: The Monterey International Pop Music Festival takes place. Over 200,000 people attend. It is often regarded as the precursor to Woodstock. It likely alarms both the FBI & the CIA. David Crosby, of the Byrds, tells the crowd that the Warren Report is a lie & that JFK was killed by many guns in a conspiracy. He then dedicates a song, "He Was a Friend of Mine," to him.

August: LBJ dramatically boosts CIA's illegal spying on US citizens, ongoing since 1959, so he can keep tabs on anti-war activists. The program will soon be named Operation CHAOS.

FBI's COINTELPRO program is ongoing at that point.

Three "Radicals" have slipped our memories here. Abbie Hoffman, dying from an overdose of phenolbarbital. Jerry Rubin dying while jaywalking. Somewhat of a friend to John Lennon. And then there's Hunter Thompson, supposedly shooting himself in the head. Thompson wrote a book about the Hell's Angels. In his last year, some people believe he witnessed or filmed a human sacrifice in Bohemian Grove, a place where certain politicians more or less turn their soul over to the devil and undergo the burning of their consciences.

And about Sal Mineo -- he was gay. That could have played a part. I have never been convinced that the black man whom they blamed, really killed Sal Mineo.

Other journalists: Dorothy Kilgallen, dead from mixing sleeping pills and alcohol. Was writing a book about the Assassination conspiracy. Irv Kupcinet -- questioned a mob member about Jack Ruby, as soon as he saw Ruby shoot Oswald. Four days later Irv's daughter was murdered by compression of her left carotid artery, or by a karate chop. Jim Koethe -- also killed by karate chop. He was a reporter and gay and may have known too much about Ruby.

Kathy

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