Oswald & Ammunition

[Dan Herrick]

Hello all,

Forum newbie here - know "a lot" about Watergate and "a little" about the JFK assassination but excited to be here and learn more about both.

I recall reading, probably in Anthony Summers' Conspiracy, that in all of the searches of all of Oswald's effects, no law enforcement agency ever found any extra/spare ammunition for either the Mannlicher-Carcano or the gun LHO had on him at the time of his arrest. I am not knowledgable about guns...but this seemed like it would be exceedingly unusual when I read it.

So my questions:

1. Is it true that no extra ammo was found in any of Oswald's effects?

2. If so, would it be unusual to not find any?

3. If so, what are we to make of the fact that none was found?

Thanks,

Dan

[Mark Knight]

I can't speak for the "black-ops" kinda guys, but for those of us who use civillian weapons for hunting and target shooting purposes and buy retail, ammunition is purchased in box lots. A box of shot shells for a 12-gauge shotgun usually contains 25 rounds, and a box of slugs--rifled, saboted, or otherwise--usually contains 5. For my .41 Rem. Magnum "wheel gun," they come in boxes of either 25 or 50 rounds. For my .22 rimfire, those are sold in boxes of 50 thru 500 rounds.

Nowhere am I able to purchase less than a box lot of any gauge/caliber ammunition. [Again, understand that I buy at retail, and not from the CIA station.]

But the logical conclusion is that, had I purchased a box of ammunition, and used less that the entire box, the remaining ammunition would've been found either on my person or in my personal effects somewhere.

And no "excess" ammunition for the 6.5 mm Carcano were found either on Oswald's person or among his personal effects.

So, from the spent casings found in the TSBD and the one live round found in the Carcano, either (1) LHO was down to his last four rounds; (2) Oswald never purchased any ammunition, and spent his off-time from work standing on the street corners begging for spare lead [as opposed to spare change], and only was able to scrounge 4 rounds of ammo; (3) when he was assigned the JFK hit, he was only given enough ammunition for the hit itself [but since I'm not connected to any clandestine ops, that's merely speculation on my part]; or (4) LHO's only job was to acquire the Carcano, and someone else fired the shots and brought their own ammunition...meaning the actual shooter probably had the remnants of a box of 6.5mm Carcano ammunition either on their person or in their personal effects at a location that was not searched in connection to Oswald.

[Mike Williams]

I can't speak for the "black-ops" kinda guys, but for those of us who use civillian weapons for hunting and target shooting purposes and buy retail, ammunition is purchased in box lots. A box of shot shells for a 12-gauge shotgun usually contains 25 rounds, and a box of slugs--rifled, saboted, or otherwise--usually contains 5. For my .41 Rem. Magnum "wheel gun," they come in boxes of either 25 or 50 rounds. For my .22 rimfire, those are sold in boxes of 50 thru 500 rounds.

Nowhere am I able to purchase less than a box lot of any gauge/caliber ammunition. [Again, understand that I buy at retail, and not from the CIA station.]

But the logical conclusion is that, had I purchased a box of ammunition, and used less that the entire box, the remaining ammunition would've been found either on my person or in my personal effects somewhere.

And no "excess" ammunition for the 6.5 mm Carcano were found either on Oswald's person or among his personal effects.

So, from the spent casings found in the TSBD and the one live round found in the Carcano, either (1) LHO was down to his last four rounds; (2) Oswald never purchased any ammunition, and spent his off-time from work standing on the street corners begging for spare lead [as opposed to spare change], and only was able to scrounge 4 rounds of ammo; (3) when he was assigned the JFK hit, he was only given enough ammunition for the hit itself [but since I'm not connected to any clandestine ops, that's merely speculation on my part]; or (4) LHO's only job was to acquire the Carcano, and someone else fired the shots and brought their own ammunition...meaning the actual shooter probably had the remnants of a box of 6.5mm Carcano ammunition either on their person or in their personal effects at a location that was not searched in connection to Oswald.

While there was not extra ammo found there is evidence that two empty shell boxes were found, they were not submitted into evidence which befuddles me, but it should be considered none the less.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

While there was not extra ammo found there is evidence that two empty shell boxes were found, they were not submitted into evidence which befuddles me, but it should be considered none the less.

I must admit some befuddlement about this also and would like to know more. I don't think I've ever seen or heard of this list before. What is the source for this? Is it in the Warren Commision record? Are the other items referred to in this list in evidence? [EDIT On second look I see that the other two cards DO refer to items actually in evidence] If the items referred to in this list [card] are not in evidence, how and where was this list discovered? Do we know where the "two boxes" were found?

One odd thing about this is that the ammo found in the Sixth Floor was not Italian but was manufactured by Western Cartridge Co. no?

I imagine that a Western Cartridge Co. ammo box would not say "Italian" anywhere on the box, so at first blush this does not sound like the same brand of ammo found in the TSBD. The card reads TWO EMPTY BOXES MARKED "6.5 ITALIAN AMMUNITION" which sounds like whoever made this card is referring to two empty boxes on which someone had ADDED the "mark" or notation "6.5 Italian ammunition" for identification purposes. It is not clear that the mark "6.5 Italian ammunition" is actually from the original manufacturers label.

I am sure some of the early critics pointed out that the Warren Commission could find no evidence that Lee Oswald EVER bought or possessed ammo for the Carcano, so this item is indeed a curiosity.

Edited August 15, 2008 by J. Raymond Carroll

[Mike Williams]

While there was not extra ammo found there is evidence that two empty shell boxes were found, they were not submitted into evidence which befuddles me, but it should be considered none the less.

I must admit some befuddlement about this also and would like to know more. I don't think I've ever seen or heard of this list before. What is the source for this? Is it in the Warren Commision record? Are the other items referred to in this list in evidence? [EDIT On second look I see that the other two cards DO refer to items actually in evidence] If the items referred to in this list [card] are not in evidence, how and where was this list discovered? Do we know where the "two boxes" were found?

One odd thing about this is that the ammo found in the Sixth Floor was not Italian but was manufactured by Western Cartridge Co. no?

I imagine that a Western Cartridge Co. ammo box would not say "Italian" anywhere on the box, so at first blush this does not sound like the same brand of ammo found in the TSBD. The card reads TWO EMPTY BOXES MARKED "6.5 ITALIAN AMMUNITION" which sounds like whoever made this card is referring to two empty boxes on which someone had ADDED the "mark" or notation "6.5 Italian ammunition" for identification purposes. It is not clear that the mark "6.5 Italian ammunition" is actually from the original manufacturers label.

I am sure some of the early critics pointed out that the Warren Commission could find no evidence that Lee Oswald EVER bought or possessed ammo for the Carcano, so this item is indeed a curiosity.

I came across that in the Commission Documents. I will try to find the exact location for you. I also found the "Italian" to be a bit curious, but have not found one dog gone word about that either!

It would seem that the ammo boxes were found at the Paines home. Given the number sequence and the other items on the list, this would seem to make sense. Ruth Paine lives not far from me perhaps I can give her a call and see if she recalls anything about this.

Ill keep you up on whatever I find.

Mike

[Duke Lane]

... Nowhere am I able to purchase less than a box lot of any gauge/caliber ammunition. [Again, understand that I buy at retail, and not from the CIA station.]

Mark, when you get your next bonus check, you might want to look into this. The secret "back-door" number to the Company store is 1-800-I SHOT JFK (474-8535). Don't tell anyone.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

1. The WCC ammo came in 20-round cardboard boxes which were similar in size and composition to the standard issue Italian Ammo boxes.

However:

A. The Italian ammo box contained 18 rounds which was pre- loaded into three clips.

B. The Italian ammo box was fully marked (Block Printing)

C. The WCC ammo contined 20-rounds to the box with no clips.

D. The WCC ammo box was completely "sterile" with absollutely no markings on the exterior of the box.

E. The WCC ammo contained a small white slip of paper which was packed inside the box which identified the ammo as well as the Department of Army Ordnance code/standard to which the ammunition was manufactured, as well as the ammo size.

Lastly! That information relative to exactly what purpose (who) this ammunition was manufactured for is not scheduled for review for release until the year 2025.

Doubt seriously that I will ever see it, unless Houdini was right.

[Duke Lane]

I must admit some befuddlement about this also and would like to know more. I don't think I've ever seen or heard of this list before. What is the source for this? Is it in the Warren Commision record? Are the other items referred to in this list in evidence? [EDIT On second look I see that the other two cards DO refer to items actually in evidence] If the items referred to in this list [card] are not in evidence, how and where was this list discovered? Do we know where the "two boxes" were found?

One odd thing about this is that the ammo found in the Sixth Floor was not Italian but was manufactured by Western Cartridge Co. no?

I imagine that a Western Cartridge Co. ammo box would not say "Italian" anywhere on the box, so at first blush this does not sound like the same brand of ammo found in the TSBD. The card reads TWO EMPTY BOXES MARKED "6.5 ITALIAN AMMUNITION" which sounds like whoever made this card is referring to two empty boxes on which someone had ADDED the "mark" or notation "6.5 Italian ammunition" for identification purposes. It is not clear that the mark "6.5 Italian ammunition" is actually from the original manufacturers label.

I am sure some of the early critics pointed out that the Warren Commission could find no evidence that Lee Oswald EVER bought or possessed ammo for the Carcano, so this item is indeed a curiosity.

I came across that in the Commission Documents. I will try to find the exact location for you. I also found the "Italian" to be a bit curious, but have not found one dog gone word about that either!

It would seem that the ammo boxes were found at the Paines home. Given the number sequence and the other items on the list, this would seem to make sense. Ruth Paine lives not far from me perhaps I can give her a call and see if she recalls anything about this.

There is a typewritten list containing these items as well: CD1554/75. This lists a series of "FBI Exhibits" without indicating their origin. The 5/28/64 Gemberling Report (CD1066/96) is a similar list. Their origin seems to be indicated in CD205/97, which says that Irving resident William J. Honea found them "in the vicinity of an abandoned gravel pit" and contacted the Dallas Sheriff's Office about them. The report says that the boxes "apparently at one time contained 6.5 caliber [sic] Italian ammunition." It does not specifically state that Deputy Sheriff B.J. Courson, to whom Honea "furnished" the empty boxes, in turn furnished them to the FBI or whether he was simply reporting that someone had furnished them to him, but the coincidence of the FBI being informed of two empty cardboard boxes "apparently" (whatever made that "apparent" is not indicated either) containing the ammo at one time, and then having two empty cardboard boxes marked as 6.5 "Italian ammunition" seems too unlikely to think that they were not the same items.

I agree that "Italian ammunition" as a manufacturer's label name is unlikely, just like .303 Enfield rounds would not likely be labeled as "English ammunition" or 9mm rounds for my Taurus aren't likely to be labeled "Brazilian ammunition." Okay, so the last one's a little far-fetched, but the point is that ammo isn't likely to be called anything according to a country of origin of the weapon(s) that might fire it, unless Italian rifles were the only guns that fired 6.5mm rounds, which I can't imagine to be the case simply based on the idea that without nearly everyone owning an Italian Mannlicher-Carcano, the rounds would tend to be as scarce as hen's teeth. There must have been enough rifles that used them for gun shops to even bother carrying them, which we know at least two or three around Dallas did ... or a lot of M-C rifles in Dallas.

It doesn't seem that the fact that this item is interspersed between items generally attributed to having been found at the Paine residence is necessarily meaningful, especially given the likelihood that if they had been found among LHO's effects it would have served as proof of his having bought such ammo, which proof nobody claimed to have had. Whether it was intended to look that way is another story.

[Mike Williams]

I must admit some befuddlement about this also and would like to know more. I don't think I've ever seen or heard of this list before. What is the source for this? Is it in the Warren Commision record? Are the other items referred to in this list in evidence? [EDIT On second look I see that the other two cards DO refer to items actually in evidence] If the items referred to in this list [card] are not in evidence, how and where was this list discovered? Do we know where the "two boxes" were found?

One odd thing about this is that the ammo found in the Sixth Floor was not Italian but was manufactured by Western Cartridge Co. no?

I imagine that a Western Cartridge Co. ammo box would not say "Italian" anywhere on the box, so at first blush this does not sound like the same brand of ammo found in the TSBD. The card reads TWO EMPTY BOXES MARKED "6.5 ITALIAN AMMUNITION" which sounds like whoever made this card is referring to two empty boxes on which someone had ADDED the "mark" or notation "6.5 Italian ammunition" for identification purposes. It is not clear that the mark "6.5 Italian ammunition" is actually from the original manufacturers label.

I am sure some of the early critics pointed out that the Warren Commission could find no evidence that Lee Oswald EVER bought or possessed ammo for the Carcano, so this item is indeed a curiosity.

I came across that in the Commission Documents. I will try to find the exact location for you. I also found the "Italian" to be a bit curious, but have not found one dog gone word about that either!

It would seem that the ammo boxes were found at the Paines home. Given the number sequence and the other items on the list, this would seem to make sense. Ruth Paine lives not far from me perhaps I can give her a call and see if she recalls anything about this.

There is a typewritten list containing these items as well: CD1554/75. This lists a series of "FBI Exhibits" without indicating their origin. The 5/28/64 Gemberling Report (CD1066/96) is a similar list. Their origin seems to be indicated in CD205/97, which says that Irving resident William J. Honea found them "in the vicinity of an abandoned gravel pit" and contacted the Dallas Sheriff's Office about them. The report says that the boxes "apparently at one time contained 6.5 caliber [sic] Italian ammunition." It does not specifically state that Deputy Sheriff B.J. Courson, to whom Honea "furnished" the empty boxes, in turn furnished them to the FBI or whether he was simply reporting that someone had furnished them to him, but the coincidence of the FBI being informed of two empty cardboard boxes "apparently" (whatever made that "apparent" is not indicated either) containing the ammo at one time, and then having two empty cardboard boxes marked as 6.5 "Italian ammunition" seems too unlikely to think that they were not the same items.

I agree that "Italian ammunition" as a manufacturer's label name is unlikely, just like .303 Enfield rounds would not likely be labeled as "English ammunition" or 9mm rounds for my Taurus aren't likely to be labeled "Brazilian ammunition." Okay, so the last one's a little far-fetched, but the point is that ammo isn't likely to be called anything according to a country of origin of the weapon(s) that might fire it, unless Italian rifles were the only guns that fired 6.5mm rounds, which I can't imagine to be the case simply based on the idea that without nearly everyone owning an Italian Mannlicher-Carcano, the rounds would tend to be as scarce as hen's teeth. There must have been enough rifles that used them for gun shops to even bother carrying them, which we know at least two or three around Dallas did ... or a lot of M-C rifles in Dallas.

It doesn't seem that the fact that this item is interspersed between items generally attributed to having been found at the Paine residence is necessarily meaningful, especially given the likelihood that if they had been found among LHO's effects it would have served as proof of his having bought such ammo, which proof nobody claimed to have had. Whether it was intended to look that way is another story.

Duke,

The appearance of this being found at the Paine residence is exactly what I was thinking. Im still digging into this a bit, but information is scarce.

Oh yes the correct labeling for your 9mm Taurus Ammunition should be "Girl buwwets"

HAHAHA!

Mike

Edited August 15, 2008 by Mike Williams

[Thomas H. Purvis]

1. The WCC ammo came in 20-round cardboard boxes which were similar in size and composition to the standard issue Italian Ammo boxes.

However:

A. The Italian ammo box contained 18 rounds which was pre- loaded into three clips.

B. The Italian ammo box was fully marked (Block Printing)

C. The WCC ammo contined 20-rounds to the box with no clips.

D. The WCC ammo box was completely "sterile" with absollutely no markings on the exterior of the box.

E. The WCC ammo contained a small white slip of paper which was packed inside the box which identified the ammo as well as the Department of Army Ordnance code/standard to which the ammunition was manufactured, as well as the ammo size.

Lastly! That information relative to exactly what purpose (who) this ammunition was manufactured for is not scheduled for review for release until the year 2025.

Doubt seriously that I will ever see it, unless Houdini was right.

http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carc...ry.html#1939box

The Italian 6.5mm ammo box is marked almost exactly as is the 7.35. Somewhere packed away I have original ammo boxes for both calibers.

For whatever reason, the ability to upload attachments is "net zero", otherwise, I would again show the paper slip which is found in original boxes of WCC ammo which identifies the contents.

[Duke Lane]

For whatever reason, the ability to upload attachments is "net zero", otherwise, I would again show the paper slip which is found in original boxes of WCC ammo which identifies the contents.

I'd have you send it to me - I've got lots of room left for attachments - but your inbox is also full!

[Duke Lane]

Oh yes the correct labeling for your 9mm Taurus Ammunition should be "Girl buwwets" HAHAHA!

Spehwing is awways impawtint - it would be "girwie buwwets!" Still wouldn't want to be at the pointy end of one going fast tho'!

[Mike Williams]

Oh yes the correct labeling for your 9mm Taurus Ammunition should be "Girl buwwets" HAHAHA!

Spehwing is awways impawtint - it would be "girwie buwwets!" Still wouldn't want to be at the pointy end of one going fast tho'!

Duke,

I agree no pointy end for me! If I have to get shot again, I prefer those suction cup darts. Them real buwwets hurt to dang much!

Mike

[William Kelly]

1. The WCC ammo came in 20-round cardboard boxes which were similar in size and composition to the standard issue Italian Ammo boxes.

However:

A. The Italian ammo box contained 18 rounds which was pre- loaded into three clips.

B. The Italian ammo box was fully marked (Block Printing)

C. The WCC ammo contined 20-rounds to the box with no clips.

D. The WCC ammo box was completely "sterile" with absollutely no markings on the exterior of the box.

E. The WCC ammo contained a small white slip of paper which was packed inside the box which identified the ammo as well as the Department of Army Ordnance code/standard to which the ammunition was manufactured, as well as the ammo size.

Lastly! That information relative to exactly what purpose (who) this ammunition was manufactured for is not scheduled for review for release until the year 2025.

Doubt seriously that I will ever see it, unless Houdini was right.

Tom, Can you tell us more about (who) "this ammunition was manufactured for is not scheduled for release until the year 2025."

There might be a song there, but the last officially withheld record of the Warren Commission is scheduled for release in the year 2017, less then a decade away. The review board dissolved eleven years ago, so there's more time since they set postponements than what we have to wait for the last one.

Also, I'm trying to locate the WC document that traces the origin of the shells to a batch of bullets that were sold to the USMC in 1954. Does anyone else have this doc handy?

Since the USMC didn't have any official weapon that could fire that size round, there is speculation that they were to be used in special ops, like the Guatemalan coup of that year.

Also, consider that, like the rifle, scope and strap (USAF issued sidearm strap) and other items found at the scene, the shells were meant to be found, and the rest of the ammunition and the box they came in, were not meant to be found.

If there is a document that says that the identity of who the ammo was manufactured for cannot be released until 2025, I'd like to see it because that is the kind of still withheld record we are looking for to present to the Congressional Hearing on the JFK Act.

Oh, and for all you shooters out there, my Browns Mills NJ neighbor Matt Emmons took a silver, and will shoot again tomorrow. A guy from the Ukaraine won the gold and an Aussie took bronze.

Thanks,

BK

Edited August 15, 2008 by William Kelly

[Thomas H. Purvis]

1. The WCC ammo came in 20-round cardboard boxes which were similar in size and composition to the standard issue Italian Ammo boxes.

However:

A. The Italian ammo box contained 18 rounds which was pre- loaded into three clips.

B. The Italian ammo box was fully marked (Block Printing)

C. The WCC ammo contined 20-rounds to the box with no clips.

D. The WCC ammo box was completely "sterile" with absollutely no markings on the exterior of the box.

E. The WCC ammo contained a small white slip of paper which was packed inside the box which identified the ammo as well as the Department of Army Ordnance code/standard to which the ammunition was manufactured, as well as the ammo size.

Lastly! That information relative to exactly what purpose (who) this ammunition was manufactured for is not scheduled for review for release until the year 2025.

Doubt seriously that I will ever see it, unless Houdini was right.

Tom, Can you tell us more about (who) "this ammunition was manufactured for is not scheduled for release until the year 2025."

There might be a song there, but the last officially withheld record of the Warren Commission is scheduled for release in the year 2017, less then a decade away. The review board dissolved eleven years ago, so there's more time since they set postponements than what we have to wait for the last one.

Also, I'm trying to locate the WC document that traces the origin of the shells to a batch of bullets that were sold to the USMC in 1954. Does anyone else have this doc handy?

Since the USMC didn't have any official weapon that could fire that size round, there is speculation that they were to be used in special ops, like the Guatemalan coup of that year.

Also, consider that, like the rifle, scope and strap (USAF issued sidearm strap) and other items found at the scene, the shells were meant to be found, and the rest of the ammunition and the box they came in, were not meant to be found.

If there is a document that says that the identity of who the ammo was manufactured for cannot be released until 2025, I'd like to see it because that is the kind of still withheld record we are looking for to present to the Congressional Hearing on the JFK Act.

Oh, and for all you shooters out there, my Browns Mills NJ neighbor Matt Emmons took a silver, and will shoot again tomorrow. A guy from the Ukaraine won the gold and an Aussie took bronze.

Thanks,

BK

Tom, Can you tell us more about (who) "this ammunition was manufactured for is not scheduled for release until the year 2025."

There might be a song there, but the last officially withheld record of the Warren Commission is scheduled for release in the year 2017, less then a decade away. The review board dissolved eleven years ago, so there's more time since they set postponements than what we have to wait for the last one.

You are most probably the "correct" one in that matter.

The "25" is stuck in my head for some reason!

It was in/around 1992 that I corresponded with US Senator David Boren (then Chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee) in regards to the release of that information relative to manufacture of the Carcano ammuntions, and If I can find that letter, it probably states something to the effect "25 years before the release".

In memory, your date seems correct.

CRS syndrone often causes one to insert foot into mouth.

Also, I'm trying to locate the WC document that traces the origin of the shells to a batch of bullets that were sold to the USMC in 1954. Does anyone else have this doc handy?

Since the USMC didn't have any official weapon that could fire that size round, there is speculation that they were to be used in special ops, like the Guatemalan coup of that year.

The document to which you refer is an FBI "red herring"!

It states that the manufacture of the ammo was "paid" for under a USMC purchase order which was probably done for "cover and concealment" purposes.

Yet, the actual "Purchase Order" document, which would (if shown the original) demonstrate exactly who/what entity ordered the ammunition as well as the DOD (Department of Defense) identification as to exactly whose funds were utilized to pay for production of the ammo.

It is noted that the ammunition was manufactured for a "DA" (Department of the Army) Ordnance production standard. NOT a USMC standard which in fact had their own codes.

P.S. Ammunition manufactured for some "cover & concealment" purpose has neither the manufacturer's identification stamped into the base of the cartridge case (WCC as does the ammo), nor does it contain a little slip of paper inside each box which not only clearly identifies the manufacturer and lot#, but the Department of Army Ordnance manufacture Specification code as well.

(Pink elephant in Wal-Mart Parking lot!)

Still can not upload to show the paper slip!