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Why Oswald is Innocent


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Guest Stephen Turner
Thanks for your replies, I hope I haven't offended anybody.

Doesn't the weight of evidence strongly suggest that LHO took his rifle into work that morning, irrespective of whether he used it to shoot the President?

Someone will no doubt tell me, or speculate, that some (or dare I say all) of these points are incorrect.

1. Lee kept a rifle in the Paines garage.

2. Lee visited his wife at the Paines the previous evening, conflicting with his usual routine.

3. Lee never mentioned curtain rods to anyone but his ride into work the following morning.

4. Lee's rifle was discovered in the TSBD after the shooting.

5. Lee's rifle was missing from its usual location in the Paines garage after the shooting.

6. The discarded packaging was found in the TSBD.

7. The curtain rods were never found anywhere.

8. Lee didn't need curtain rods at his rented room in Oak Cliff.

9. Lee denied taking a package into the TSBD (conflicting with witness testimony).

... That's all I can think of at the moment.

I'd say that was pretty convincing support for "Lee Harvy Oswald took his rifle into the TSBD on the morning of 22 November 1963".

You certainly haven't offended me Paul. Perhaps cherry picking was the wrong phrase, its probably more to do with how one weighs the available evidence, who provided that evidence, under what cicumstances they provided it, and whether an alternative meaning can be found. For example, Who says that LHO kept a rifle in the Paines garage, and under what cicumstances was this evidence obtained? As regards point 6, Both Myself and Duke have already shown the enormous problems with excepting that on face value, Point 8, I suggest you use this forums search facility, you may be surprised with you find.

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... The Tippit murder is a crucial part of the conspiracy, because Oswald needs to be arrested (or murdered) as soon as possible after the assassination for the conspiracy to be successful - and Oswald leaves Dealey Plaza for... Oak Cliff! ... Oak Cliff isn't the first place one thinks of when looking for suspects to an assassination downtown. ... Oswald needs to be put in custody or better yet murdered at the scene, trying to escape. ... So Tippit is murdered.

Police then arrive in numbers and apprehend Oswald in the Texas theater. ... Without the Tippit shooting, Oswald walks around Oak Cliff and the police most likely never find the assassin. ... [if Tippit's assumptive role in the conspiracy] was to round up Oswald and take him to a predetermined location, or eliminate him based on a confrontation after recognizing Oswald from the APB, then the police wouldn't have had to come to Oak Cliff with their guns a'blazin, and Oswald would be "delivered" - one way or another. ... an event of great magnitude had to happen for the police to come to Oak Cliff and apprehend Oswald. Tippit's shooting is what did it.

If "an event of great magnitude had to happen" to draw police to Oak Cliff, and Tippit's murder was that event, then that effectively eliminates any role for Tippit in a conspiracy, doesn't it? If his murder "had to happen," then his fulfilling the role you'd described would've precluded his murder, wouldn't it? Could a lone cop be certain to be able to subdue a grown man and put him into his patrol car - all in front of potential witnesses - ensure his captive would remain docile and wouldn't assault him while he drove? Could he "cover" his captive as he drove - what if his captive got behind him? - or somehow ensure that he wouldn't jump out of the car? There was no protective grille in the car, and to my knowledge they didn't remove the back door handles back then. Handcuffs might've helped, but how to explain those marks on the dead man's wrists at autopsy?

Certainly, he couldn't have the captive drive the patrol car: even presuming that he'd have the captive don the jacket hanging in back so he looked like a cop driving, if the captive might figure he was "done for" anyway, might he not do something conterproductive like crash the car? What's the cop/captor going to do, shoot his captive while he's speeding down Jefferson Boulevard? Explain that to the world when the cop car smashes into someone else or runs over a dozen people on the sidewalk! "Officer Tippit explained that he wasn't driving his patrol car when the accident occurred; he said his captive was."

Based on these things, that Tippit was alone fairly well proves he wasn't "part of the plot," at least not an active part of it (unless we surmise that he volunteered to get killed). The only thing a lone cop could've done was either to (1) shoot the suspect, again in front of potential witnesses, or (2) call for backup, which he didn't do. A sound plan that included apprehending and subduing the patsy would've had failsafes to ensure something like what did happen, wouldn't. If Tippit was on the lookout for Oswald - knew who he was and what he looked like - he'd presumably have radioed something in before stopping so his co-conspirators would know where to find him, to come help him, or at least to let them know that things were going according to plan.

He could've shot Oswald through the window, saying that Oswald drew down on him first and he fired in self-defense, and then put a gun in Oswald's hand afterward. The trouble with that is that Tippit didn't have an extra gun with him, and knowing that Oswald would have his own gun with him posed a significant risk that Tippit was clearly not prepared for (he'd have had his gun out and at the ready before stopping).

If Tippit wasn't part of the plot and still his murder "had to happen," then Oswald - if Oswald was Tippit's killer - would also have had to have been part of the plot to make himself the patsy. How else, without him being aware of his impending role, could anyone have been certain that he'd go home and get his gun? And why would he shoot a cop in the middle of the street, which wouldn't have gone unnoticed for very long and which could only have served - and apparently would be designed to serve - to get lots of cops into Oak Cliff, where he just happened to be, all alone with no backup of his own? "Okay, Lee, you shoot the cop so we can get a response, and of course after that, you're on your own. Good luck!" Would he - could he - not have seen the writing on the wall if that were the case? And still he went through with it to the very end?

If Tippit's murder "had to happen," then the only way to ensure that it did happen was to have someone who could be relied upon absolutely to do it and get away with it. The only thing Tippit's murder could have accomplished was to attract a massive police response - even despite the shooting of the President of the United States downtown - to the area, and as we know, that's exactly what did happen: 43 Dallas Police officers who had been in Dealey Plaza, along with 20 sherriff's deputies, responded to the "citizen" broadcast of the shooting. It had the additional (and unintentional?) consequence of removing more than half of the cops from Dealey Plaza.

And oddly enough - based on the actual radio traffic and the fact that even the FBI determined that, after 2:48, there were "no more pertinent transmissions" relating to the assassination - no sooner was Oswald in custody than the manhunt for the President's killer(s) was ended. What do you make of that?

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Everybody wants to talk about Tippit. Nobody wants to argue that it was Oswald in the 6th floor window with a rifle, or try to determine who it really was.

I think it can be conclusively demonstrated that Oswald was not the Sixth Floor Sniper and therefore didn't kill the President. And whoever was had a legitimate excuse to be there, just like the designated Patsy.

What happened after the Patsy left the TSBD doesn't change that fact.

All I said is that the convoluted actions attributed to Oswald after he leaves the TSBD don't make sense, and there must be a better explanation for what happened.

That Oswald was innocent of killing the President and framed for the crime doesn't mean that his actions after the murder were part of any plan or plot. If he was to be framed for the crime it didn't matter what happened once JFK was dead and the new government was in control. Oswald was as good as dead then too.

As LBJ said to DPD - "You've got your man."

Whether the patsy was to be designated a lone nut or a communist was to be up to those who took over - and how the events played out.

The murder of J.D. Tippit can still be solved with a routine, local grand jury investigation, while the assassination of the President must be resolved at a different level as a matter of national security.

BK

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"Everybody wants to talk about Tippit. Nobody wants to argue that it was Oswald in the 6th floor window with a rifle, or try to determine who it really was. "

...Bill, sorry to hijack the thread. My point was that the actions taken by Oswald taken after the assassination also suggest that Oswald was innocent of being the assassin (at any location) because he can't be the smartest guy in the world as he pulls the trigger, then the dumbest guy in the world thirty minutes later.

...Duke, let's discuss the Oak Cliff events outside of this thread, if you desire, but to keep this thread on topic for Bill:

"...I think it can be conclusively demonstrated that Oswald was not the Sixth Floor Sniper and therefore didn't kill the President..."

I agree.

"...What happened after the Patsy left the TSBD doesn't change that fact..."

I agree.

"...All I said is that the convoluted actions attributed to Oswald after he leaves the TSBD don't make sense, and there must be a better explanation for what happened..."

Yes.

"...That Oswald was innocent of killing the President and framed for the crime doesn't mean that HIS actions (emphasis added) after the murder were part of any plan or plot..."

I agree that Oswald did not fire a shot at the President and that his actions after the murder do not necessarily indicate participation in any plot.

"...If he was to be framed for the crime it didn't matter what happened once JFK was dead and the new government was in control. Oswald was as good as dead then too..."

I agree. The conspirators did have to know his whereabouts, though, because he had to be eliminated with some dispatch.

"...Whether the patsy was to be designated a lone nut or a communist was to be up to those who took over - and how the events played out..."

I believe that it was predetermined that Oswald was to be the "lone gunman" and the manufacture of evidence against him to support this had been going on prior to November 22, 1963. I do not believe that the perpetrators would undertake this endeavor of this magnitude without a fall guy already in place.

"...The murder of J.D. Tippit can still be solved with a routine, local grand jury investigation, while the assassination of the President must be resolved at a different level as a matter of national security..."

I believe both would be extremely difficult 45 years later, but are still possible.

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"Everybody wants to talk about Tippit. Nobody wants to argue that it was Oswald in the 6th floor window with a rifle, or try to determine who it really was. "

RW, the purported actions of Oswald after leaving the TSBD are important and reflect on him, and being accused of the murder of Tippit as well as the damage at Dealey Plaza certainly makes him appear guilty of both.

While there are two threads on Oswald's flight path and the Tippit murder already going, I don't care if that is discussed here too, I'm just surprised that nobody wants to try to put Oswald in the window or argue with the points that convince me of him being innocent. - BK

...Bill, sorry to hijack the thread. My point was that the actions taken by Oswald taken after the assassination also suggest that Oswald was innocent of being the assassin (at any location) because he can't be the smartest guy in the world as he pulls the trigger, then the dumbest guy in the world thirty minutes later.

...Duke, let's discuss the Oak Cliff events outside of this thread, if you desire, but to keep this thread on topic for Bill:

"...I think it can be conclusively demonstrated that Oswald was not the Sixth Floor Sniper and therefore didn't kill the President..."

I agree.

"...What happened after the Patsy left the TSBD doesn't change that fact..."

I agree.

"...All I said is that the convoluted actions attributed to Oswald after he leaves the TSBD don't make sense, and there must be a better explanation for what happened..."

Yes.

"...That Oswald was innocent of killing the President and framed for the crime doesn't mean that HIS actions (emphasis added) after the murder were part of any plan or plot..."

I agree that Oswald did not fire a shot at the President and that his actions after the murder do not necessarily indicate participation in any plot.

"...If he was to be framed for the crime it didn't matter what happened once JFK was dead and the new government was in control. Oswald was as good as dead then too..."

I agree. The conspirators did have to know his whereabouts, though, because he had to be eliminated with some dispatch.

"...Whether the patsy was to be designated a lone nut or a communist was to be up to those who took over - and how the events played out..."

I believe that it was predetermined that Oswald was to be the "lone gunman" and the manufacture of evidence against him to support this had been going on prior to November 22, 1963. I do not believe that the perpetrators would undertake this endeavor of this magnitude without a fall guy already in place.

"...The murder of J.D. Tippit can still be solved with a routine, local grand jury investigation, while the assassination of the President must be resolved at a different level as a matter of national security..."

I believe both would be extremely difficult 45 years later, but are still possible.

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... Doesn't the weight of evidence strongly suggest that LHO took his rifle into work that morning, irrespective of whether he used it to shoot the President?
"Strongly suggesting" something is entirely different than "proving" it.

Let's look at some of those suggestions:

1. Lee kept a rifle in the Paines garage.

Ruth Paine was a pacifist who stongly opposed guns, and would not have allowed one in her home (or her garage), as she testified. She was unaware of its supposedly being there, as was Marina, this even despite the fact that she and Marina had unloaded her car after Ruth had brought Marina back from New Orleans with the Oswalds' possessions in it. Since it was supposedly wrapped in a blanket (which is not a hard case), would you not suspect that its shape would have revealed itself when either of them carried it? Can you suggest a reasonable explanation of why they might
not
have noticed it?

How then do we
know
any such rifle was
ever
in the Paines' garage?

2. Lee visited his wife at the Paines the previous evening, conflicting with his usual routine.

Ruth Paine was planning to have a child's birthday party at her house on Saturday, conflicting with
her
usual routine. Did Lee decide to come out on Thursday so he could avoid a houseful of screaming kids on Saturday? He never had the chance to say. In that light, however, is it any longer
suspicious
that he changed his routine the one time?

3. Lee never mentioned curtain rods to anyone but his ride into work the following morning.

Lee didn't talk much with anyone about anything. Why would he mention something as mundane as needing curtain rods to anyone? He only said so to Frazier because Frazier asked him.

4. Lee's rifle was discovered in the TSBD after the shooting.

A rifle attributed to his ownership was found, true. Since nobody who recognized one rifle from another had ever seen Lee in possession of it (and the only one who did was his wife, who was effectively threatened with deportation back to Soviet Russia if she didn't "cooperate" with the investigation), it cannot be proved that he ever had it. There is also a question about whether the rifle that he presumably ordered and was shipped to him (according to the shipping documents) was actually the same model (Carcanos had different barrel lengths) as the one that was found.

Even presuming his possession of the same at one time, since it can't be proven that the rifle was in the Paines' garage, and since it was not seen at the Beckley Street boarding house by anyone there (and I'll bet a dollar to a donut that Earlene Roberts
did
rummage through people's stuff!), it can't be proved that Oswald didn't sell the gun to someone when he was in need of cash during one of his several periods of unemployment. Likewise, nobody at any of the other locations he lived ever claimed to have seen the rifle, so if it wasn't at the Paines' house, where was it?

5. Lee's rifle was missing from its usual location in the Paines garage after the shooting.

Refer to #1

6. The discarded packaging was found in the TSBD.

What does that prove? And, for that matter, can you prove other than by citing testimony that the package was found in the TSBD? Show me the crime scene photo that depicts it. Even presuming that the package
was
found in the TSBD, even where it was claimed to have been found, how and when did Lee construct it? He did not have access to the building outside of regular hours; Troy West, the man who had charge of the wrapping apparatus, said that he had never given Lee any of the paper and, since Lee had no off-hours access to the building and West never left his seat except, one presumes, for "the necessities of life," he couldn't have obtained it surreptitiously.

He did not apparently have this heavy wrapping paper with him when he went to Irving on Thursday evening with Frazier, which would have been bulky and probably crinkly even folded up, and Frazier - the only person he rode to and from Irving with - didn't see any such paper with Lee at any other time they'd ridden together.

Furthermore, Troy West also testified about the tape machine that dispensed the tape used to construct the package: the tape was drawn across a mechanism that wetted the dry adhesive so it would stick, and could not be withdrawn from the machine without being wetted. All ends of the tape were cut by the cutter on the machine (as opposed to being cut by scissors or a knife, for example), so it therefore
must
have been drawn through the machine.

Possibly the tape could have been allowed to dry and then re-wetted and stuck to the paper to form the package, but maybe not: I don't know if that was possible, but let us presume that it was. Now in addition to getting the paper while West wasn't around to see, Lee also would've needed to pull the right lengths of tape from the machine and abscond with them, again while West wasn't there to notice, and put them someplace where they could dry.

He would then also have to transport that dried tape to Irving without either folding it or allowing Frazier to notice it. Then he would have to go out to the garage not only without being noticed (and he was
not
seen going to or being in the garage), but also with a sponge or some other way to re-moisten the tape which may or may not have stuck to the paper after having dried the first time.

He might have snuck out of bed in the middle of the night to accomplish this, but where did he hide the paper and tape all during the evening with Marina if he never went to the garage? Outside? Possibly, but you've got to be careful about allowing him to make a lot of movements and noise in that small house without attracting anyone's attention; just folding (and presumably first unfolding) the paper probably would've made a racket.

And what if that light mist so often mentioned in connection with the following morning had started falling during the evening? It may have; I don't recall ever hearing about it either way.

Have you reached the point of "reasonable doubt" yet, or do I have to go into the fact that no gun oil was found on the bag despite the Carcano having been "well oiled" (and we also must wonder when and where Lee would supposedly have cleaned his gun), it being over 40 inches in length (try putting a yardstick under your arm and cupping the end in your hand), and nobody having seen such a thing enter the TSBD that Friday morning?

7. The curtain rods were never found anywhere.

How would we know which were "the" curtain rods? Curiously, the Dallas police received two curtain rods - four pieces - on March 15, 1964; their origin (other than having been received from Secret Service Agent John Joe Howlett) is not specified on the form.
(at 23H756) is the receipt, request for and results of a check for fingerprints. Only one "legible" print was found them, and it did not belong to Oswald.

Let me ask you: how many times have you handled two curtain rods with one finger? Right. So out of at least two fingers that handled each of these curtain rods one time (presuming none belonged to Agent Howlett or any investigator who handled them prior to him), only one finger left a legible print on only one of the two curtain rods. From this, can we deduce that whoever handled them only used one finger? Of course not. So there were at least three other fingerprints on them that couldn't be "read," none of which could have belonged to Oswald, right? And since they could not have been Oswald's, can we therefore deduce that they didn't belong to anybody? Right: they
could
have been Oswald's, but we can't say that they
were
.

We can, however, probably deduce that investigators considered the possibility that they might've been handled by Oswald; otherwise, why look for his prints? Their failure to find his prints, however, did not
rule out
the possibility of his handling them.

Well, I could leave the story hanging right there, leave you and others wondering about this, as the person who posted the YouTube video I mention below did because he apparently didn't complete his homework assignment (you'll see what I mean).

The reality is that CE1952 refers to two "curtain rods" found in the Paine garage, which are
(21H4, bottom of the page), which might more accurately be described as "drapery rods." They are ones that are hung at the top of a window so that the drapes are suspended out from the wall, or used for the little "half-curtains" that are also hung at the top of the window, rather than the type that you hang the lower curtains from half-way down the window. They were wrapped in lightweight, plain wrapping paper like the stuff you get in a grocery store (as Ruth herself testified that she did).

Stored in her garage along with these two "drapery rods" were two sets of venetian blinds, also wrapped in the same paper. Ruth testified (3H72, et seq.) that she'd removed them about a year prior to the assassination and replaced them with "pull blinds," presumably meaning the paper or cloth type that roll up and down. Her memory of these two packages was fairly sketchy, but she was not asked - nor did she volunteer - anything about what she'd had hanging prior to that replacement.

She'd obviously taken down the upper "drapery rods" because they were stored in the garage; she does not say if she replaced them with new rods of the same sort, with something different, or with nothing at all. If she replaced them with nothing, then all she had on her windows were these "pull blinds" and nothing else. If she pulled them up to admit daylight, then she had no privacy, a seemingly unlikely thing for a respectable Quaker woman to not have. If she replaced them with similar rods, did she hang drapes or curtains from them: did she then have only long drapes and the "pull blinds," more but still not very much privacy? Or did she have the upper part of a curtain set hanging there, coming down less than a foot from the top of the window, also offering no privacy?

Either way, did she have curtains hanging over the lower part of the windows, either before or after her replacement of the venetian blinds and upper rods? If so, with what were those portions of the curtains hung? Given that she'd wrapped those rods as well as the blinds in that wrapping paper (
, 21H3 top), is there a possibility - not asked, not volunteered - that she'd also wrapped regular round curtain rods and put them together with the upper rods and blinds, and that Lee figured he'd help himself to them since she obviously wasn't using them?

Incidentally, her testimony reflected that the upper rods were about 36 inches wide (or long) as were the venetian blinds, both being roughly equal to the width of her bedroom windows. Now, get this: round
curtain
rods - the type that go half-way up your window - that are designed to span a 36-inch window slide together to be about 26-28 inches wide (or long). Coincidence? Who knows.

The point being that if there
were
these type curtain rods
missing
from her garage - she was very offhand about the whole thing - whether or not they were found, would that not be indicative of Lee's having
taken
them?

As an aside, at the start of her March 23 testimony (9H396, et seq.), counsel Albert Jenner asked, since they were now in a different jurisdiction (Irving, TX) than they had been the previous week (Washington DC) when she gave additional testimony, "may I swear you?" (i.e., put her under oath), to which she - a reasonably pious Quaker woman - replied "you may
affirm
me," to which Jenner acceded: "All right. Do you affirm that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?" to which she replied, "to the very best of my ability, I do so affirm."

"Affirmation" is made in lieu of swearing, which is stated by the preamble "do you solemnly swear" and ending with "so help you God," that is, by those people who don't believe in (a) God or who might not want to "swear by" God. An interesting thing, nothing more.

8. Lee didn't need curtain rods at his rented room in Oak Cliff.

I won't belabor the whole "privacy" issue again here, but if Lee had only drapes - and maybe sheers, or even venetian blinds that didn't close completely covering his windows at the front of the house, perhaps he may have wanted curtains as well. There is also a photo - which I've only found a copy of in
- that shows Mr. and Mrs. Johnson, the owners of the boarding house, apparently putting up curtains or drapes or something over Lee's windows. Maybe they got pulled down by the cops searching the room earlier in the day, or maybe they'd been taken down for whatever reason weeks or even months before: the room had been used as a library, if I remember correctly, before Oswald moved in, and would not necessarily have required them. Did the Johnsons want simply to not portray that they would put someone in a fishbowl, for all the world to see in his skivvies at night? Or maybe finally get around to replacing them when they realized they'd be having "company" (news people and cops)?

I don't know, but it's apparent that a bland statement that he "didn't need" curtains is not fully supportable.

9. Lee denied taking a package into the TSBD (conflicting with witness testimony).

Yup. So the cops said.

... That's all I can think of at the moment. I'd say that was pretty convincing support for "Lee Harvy Oswald took his rifle into the TSBD on the morning of 22 November 1963".
Let's not forget the blanket, for what little it might be worth.

The "evidence" tying the gun to the bag is fibers from the blanket presumably (or supposedly) used to store the gun in the garage. You must be aware, however, that all three were transported together by the FBI to Washington, aren't you? And if they were separated by the FBI, they were nevertheless photographed touching each other by DPD prior to their being transferred to the FBI in Dallas: the photo is reproduced in Jesse Curry's Assassination File if nowhere else. If I get around to it, maybe I'll scan and post it.

Paul, out of the nine points you made and the response I provided, you might well disagree with some or, dare I say, all of them. Nevertheless, most of them show that there's "not as much as meets the eye" in them.

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RW, the purported actions of Oswald after leaving the TSBD are important and reflect on him, and being accused of the murder of Tippit as well as the damage at Dealey Plaza certainly makes him appear guilty of both.

While there are two threads on Oswald's flight path and the Tippit murder already going, I don't care if that is discussed here too, I'm just surprised that nobody wants to try to put Oswald in the window or argue with the points that convince me of him being innocent. - BK

Why try to make it appear as if what didn't happen, did, or argue with what you agree with? You got what you wrote right. You just missed the clincher, that's all. Read Junior Jarman's testimony: Bonnie Ray Williams was upstairs on the sixth floor until just two or three minutes before the shooting. So was (were) the shooter(s). If that be Oswald, why didn't Bonnie Ray just come out and say so? What could Oswald do to him?

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Thanks for your replies, I hope I haven't offended anybody.

Doesn't the weight of evidence strongly suggest that LHO took his rifle into work that morning, irrespective of whether he used it to shoot the President?

Someone will no doubt tell me, or speculate, that some (or dare I say all) of these points are incorrect.

1. Lee kept a rifle in the Paines garage.

2. Lee visited his wife at the Paines the previous evening, conflicting with his usual routine.

3. Lee never mentioned curtain rods to anyone but his ride into work the following morning.

4. Lee's rifle was discovered in the TSBD after the shooting.

5. Lee's rifle was missing from its usual location in the Paines garage after the shooting.

6. The discarded packaging was found in the TSBD.

7. The curtain rods were never found anywhere.

8. Lee didn't need curtain rods at his rented room in Oak Cliff.

9. Lee denied taking a package into the TSBD (conflicting with witness testimony).

... That's all I can think of at the moment.

I'd say that was pretty convincing support for "Lee Harvy Oswald took his rifle into the TSBD on the morning of 22 November 1963".

Paul,

I don't contest any of your points. All that is being established is that LHO was not the 6th Floor sniper who killed JFK.

If it could be proven that he delivered the murder weapon to the TSBD, then he was just as guilty of the crime as Frazer was for driving him there, and Mrs. Paine for providing aid and comfort to murderer, and Ruth and Michael Paine for their roles in transporting the murder weapon from Dallas to New Orleans and back again, as well as storing it until it was used to kill the president.

The rifle is the basis of the framing of Oswald as the 6th Floor Sniper, which we've already shown to be false, so does the rifle lead us down a false trail, or can it lead us to the real assassin(s)?

BK

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Here is some testimony relating to Marina's knowledge of a rifle being stored in the garage at Mrs. Paine's house in Irving.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/rose_g.htm

Mr. ROSE. We walked up to the house, me and Stovall and one of the county officers, and I could hear the TV was playing, and I could see the door was standing open--the front door was--and I could see two people sitting inside the living room on the couch, and just as soon as we walked up on the porch, Ruth Paine came to the door. She apparently recognized us--she said, "I've been expecting you all," and we identified ourselves, and she said, "Well, I've been expecting you to come out. Come right on in."

Mr. BALL. Did she say why she had been expecting you?

Mr. ROSE. She said, "Just as soon as I heard where the shooting happened. I knew there would be someone out."

Mr. BALL. You took part in the search, didn't you?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. What part did you take?

Mr. ROSE. Well, I was the senior detective that was there, and so I was sort of the spokesman for the group, I suppose, and Stovall wen into the bedroom of Marina Oswald--Marina Oswald's bedroom, and I don't remember where Adamcik went first, but I talked with Ruth Paine a few minutes and she told me that Marina was there and that she was Lee Oswald's wife and that she was a citizen of Russia, and so I called Captain Fritz on the phone and told him what I had found out there and asked him if there was any special instructions, and he said, "Well, ask her about her husband, ask her if her husband has a rifle." I turned and asked Marina, but she didn't seem to understand. She said she couldn't understand, so Ruth Paine spoke in Russian to her and Ruth Paine also interpreted for me, and she said that Marina said--first she said Marina said "No," and then a minute Marina said, "Yes, he does have." So, then I talked to Captain Fritz for a moment and hung up the phone and I asked Marina if she would show me where his rifle was and Ruth Paine interpreted and Marina pointed to the garage and she took me to the garage and she pointed to a blanket that was rolled up and laying on the floor near the wall of the garage and Ruth Paine said, "Says that that's where his rifle is." Well, at the time I couldn't tell whether there was one in there or not. It appeared to be--it was in sort of an outline of a rifle.

Mr. BALL. You mean the blanket had the outline of a rifle?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; it did.

Mr. BALL. Was it tied at one end?

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Here is some testimony relating to Marina's knowledge of a rifle being stored in the garage at Mrs. Paine's house in Irving.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/rose_g.htm

Mr. ROSE. We walked up to the house, me and Stovall and one of the county officers, and I could hear the TV was playing, and I could see the door was standing open--the front door was--and I could see two people sitting inside the living room on the couch, and just as soon as we walked up on the porch, Ruth Paine came to the door. She apparently recognized us--she said, "I've been expecting you all," and we identified ourselves, and she said, "Well, I've been expecting you to come out. Come right on in."

Mr. BALL. Did she say why she had been expecting you?

Mr. ROSE. She said, "Just as soon as I heard where the shooting happened. I knew there would be someone out."

Mr. BALL. You took part in the search, didn't you?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. What part did you take?

Mr. ROSE. Well, I was the senior detective that was there, and so I was sort of the spokesman for the group, I suppose, and Stovall wen into the bedroom of Marina Oswald--Marina Oswald's bedroom, and I don't remember where Adamcik went first, but I talked with Ruth Paine a few minutes and she told me that Marina was there and that she was Lee Oswald's wife and that she was a citizen of Russia, and so I called Captain Fritz on the phone and told him what I had found out there and asked him if there was any special instructions, and he said, "Well, ask her about her husband, ask her if her husband has a rifle." I turned and asked Marina, but she didn't seem to understand. She said she couldn't understand, so Ruth Paine spoke in Russian to her and Ruth Paine also interpreted for me, and she said that Marina said--first she said Marina said "No," and then a minute Marina said, "Yes, he does have." So, then I talked to Captain Fritz for a moment and hung up the phone and I asked Marina if she would show me where his rifle was and Ruth Paine interpreted and Marina pointed to the garage and she took me to the garage and she pointed to a blanket that was rolled up and laying on the floor near the wall of the garage and Ruth Paine said, "Says that that's where his rifle is." Well, at the time I couldn't tell whether there was one in there or not. It appeared to be--it was in sort of an outline of a rifle.

Mr. BALL. You mean the blanket had the outline of a rifle?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; it did.

Mr. BALL. Was it tied at one end?

Yes, Antti,

BUT, after being kept wrapped up in the heavy wool blanket for months, being transported by the Paines to New Orleans and back again and stored in their garage, it strangely didn't have any microscopic threads from the blanket, which should have been present somewhere on the oily rifle.

BK

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William Kelly Posted Today, 12:27 PM

QUOTE(Antti Hynonen @ Dec 5 2008, 09:56 AM)

Here is some testimony relating to Marina's knowledge of a rifle being stored in the garage at Mrs. Paine's house in Irving.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/rose_g.htm

Mr. ROSE. We walked up to the house, me and Stovall and one of the county officers, and I could hear the TV was playing, and I could see the door was standing open--the front door was--and I could see two people sitting inside the living room on the couch, and just as soon as we walked up on the porch, Ruth Paine came to the door. She apparently recognized us--she said, "I've been expecting you all," and we identified ourselves, and she said, "Well, I've been expecting you to come out. Come right on in."

Mr. BALL. Did she say why she had been expecting you?

Mr. ROSE. She said, "Just as soon as I heard where the shooting happened. I knew there would be someone out."

Mr. BALL. You took part in the search, didn't you?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. What part did you take?

Mr. ROSE. Well, I was the senior detective that was there, and so I was sort of the spokesman for the group, I suppose, and Stovall wen into the bedroom of Marina Oswald--Marina Oswald's bedroom, and I don't remember where Adamcik went first, but I talked with Ruth Paine a few minutes and she told me that Marina was there and that she was Lee Oswald's wife and that she was a citizen of Russia, and so I called Captain Fritz on the phone and told him what I had found out there and asked him if there was any special instructions, and he said, "Well, ask her about her husband, ask her if her husband has a rifle." I turned and asked Marina, but she didn't seem to understand. She said she couldn't understand, so Ruth Paine spoke in Russian to her and Ruth Paine also interpreted for me, and she said that Marina said--first she said Marina said "No," and then a minute Marina said, "Yes, he does have." So, then I talked to Captain Fritz for a moment and hung up the phone and I asked Marina if she would show me where his rifle was and Ruth Paine interpreted and Marina pointed to the garage and she took me to the garage and she pointed to a blanket that was rolled up and laying on the floor near the wall of the garage and Ruth Paine said, "Says that that's where his rifle is." Well, at the time I couldn't tell whether there was one in there or not. It appeared to be--it was in sort of an outline of a rifle.

Mr. BALL. You mean the blanket had the outline of a rifle?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; it did.

Mr. BALL. Was it tied at one end?

Yes, Antti,

BUT, after being kept wrapped up in the heavy wool blanket for months, being transported by the Paines to New Orleans and back again and stored in their garage, it strangely didn't have any microscopic threads from the blanket, which should have been present somewhere on the oily rifle.

BK

Yes,

The DPD were also unsuccessful in obtaining any fingerprints off of the rifle. The FBI succeeded sometime later with a partial palm print, which they attributed to LHO. Also the purported rifle bag found in the TSBD did not seem to contain any oily marks, despite the allegation that the rifle had been in the bag. Also, no rifle cleaning materials nor any extra bullets were found among the possessions of LHO. I find these facts rather unusual. The evidence is very clearly inconsistent in this case.

Bill, I'm just trying to bring in all the pertinent facts and statements, as they relate to the discussion.

Further acknowledgement of the existance of Lee's rifle (prior to 11/22/63) is abundant in Marina's testimony.

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William Kelly Posted Today, 12:27 PM

QUOTE(Antti Hynonen @ Dec 5 2008, 09:56 AM)

Here is some testimony relating to Marina's knowledge of a rifle being stored in the garage at Mrs. Paine's house in Irving.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/rose_g.htm

Mr. ROSE. We walked up to the house, me and Stovall and one of the county officers, and I could hear the TV was playing, and I could see the door was standing open--the front door was--and I could see two people sitting inside the living room on the couch, and just as soon as we walked up on the porch, Ruth Paine came to the door. She apparently recognized us--she said, "I've been expecting you all," and we identified ourselves, and she said, "Well, I've been expecting you to come out. Come right on in."

Mr. BALL. Did she say why she had been expecting you?

Mr. ROSE. She said, "Just as soon as I heard where the shooting happened. I knew there would be someone out."

Mr. BALL. You took part in the search, didn't you?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. What part did you take?

Mr. ROSE. Well, I was the senior detective that was there, and so I was sort of the spokesman for the group, I suppose, and Stovall wen into the bedroom of Marina Oswald--Marina Oswald's bedroom, and I don't remember where Adamcik went first, but I talked with Ruth Paine a few minutes and she told me that Marina was there and that she was Lee Oswald's wife and that she was a citizen of Russia, and so I called Captain Fritz on the phone and told him what I had found out there and asked him if there was any special instructions, and he said, "Well, ask her about her husband, ask her if her husband has a rifle." I turned and asked Marina, but she didn't seem to understand. She said she couldn't understand, so Ruth Paine spoke in Russian to her and Ruth Paine also interpreted for me, and she said that Marina said--first she said Marina said "No," and then a minute Marina said, "Yes, he does have." So, then I talked to Captain Fritz for a moment and hung up the phone and I asked Marina if she would show me where his rifle was and Ruth Paine interpreted and Marina pointed to the garage and she took me to the garage and she pointed to a blanket that was rolled up and laying on the floor near the wall of the garage and Ruth Paine said, "Says that that's where his rifle is." Well, at the time I couldn't tell whether there was one in there or not. It appeared to be--it was in sort of an outline of a rifle.

Mr. BALL. You mean the blanket had the outline of a rifle?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; it did.

Mr. BALL. Was it tied at one end?

Yes, Antti,

BUT, after being kept wrapped up in the heavy wool blanket for months, being transported by the Paines to New Orleans and back again and stored in their garage, it strangely didn't have any microscopic threads from the blanket, which should have been present somewhere on the oily rifle.

BK

Yes,

The DPD were also unsuccessful in obtaining any fingerprints off of the rifle. The FBI succeeded sometime later with a partial palm print, which they attributed to LHO. Also the purported rifle bag found in the TSBD did not seem to contain any oily marks, despite the allegation that the rifle had been in the bag. Also, no rifle cleaning materials nor any extra bullets were found among the possessions of LHO. I find these facts rather unusual. The evidence is very clearly inconsistent in this case.

Bill, I'm just trying to bring in all the pertinent facts and statements, as they relate to the discussion.

Further acknowledgement of the existance of Lee's rifle (prior to 11/22/63) is abundant in Marina's testimony.

I think Marina acknowledged that he had the (a) rifle in New Orleans, where he once sat on the porch and dry fired it a few times, hardly giving him the practice he needed.

More significantly, Michael Paine, who packed Ruth's station wagon to take Marina and the baby and the rifle to New Orleans, also unpacked the car when it returned to Texas, and said he thought the rifle barrell in the blanket was camping equipment. But he also later acknowledge being aware of the rifle having seen one of the photos of Oswald with the rifle and pistol in the backyard.

BK

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Even Marina could not connect LHO to the M/C after the return to Dallas. There is no way of knowing that Lee ever had anything to do with it; or, in fact, knew just where it was in the garage.

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The arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald set off signals from Minsk to Mexico City. Everywhere the FBI turned they were confronted of evidence of complicity, as Lee had been involved with the FBI, and conspiracy, as false Oswalds emerged in Dallas and in Mexico City. While Lee was alive there was a chance that all of this might have been sorted out in a court of law; that he was murdered and not allowed to live to stand trial, and that the narrow FBI Summary Report and WCR followed give clear indication that the govt was terrified of what they would find if they followed the leads LHO presented to them.

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The proof of Oswald's innocence in the downtown shooting is this:

Junior Jarman and Hank Norman did not begin their walk to the fifth floor until they'd heard - either over a police radio or through the buzz of the crowd after someone else had heard it - that the motorcade was on Main Street. This was mentioned on Channel 2 two times, once at 12:22 and again at either 12:26 or 12:27, but the earliest time 12:22.

They walked from the front of the building, up Houston Street and entered the building, first noting that the passenger elevator was not in its first-floor stop, then walking around to the freight elevator, which they rode up to, according to their testimony, the fifth floor. There was nobody else on that floor as they made their way to the front windows. This walk and elevator ride - the latter at one floor every six seconds, or 24 seconds total - could have taken as little as a minute and a half, possibly a little shorter or longer.

Bonnie Ray Williams had been on the sixth floor, claimed that he'd heard footsteps or something below him, and rode the passenger elevator - that he'd taken up during the lunch hour - down to the fifth floor, where he joined his compatriots at the front windows. Only Hank Norman equivocated about whether Bonnie Ray was there when he and Junior had gotten there or if he joined them later; the other two agreed he joined the two of them later.

Also on both the fifth and sixth floors, "getting stock," was "great big husky fellow" Jack Dougherty, whom none of the three claimed to have seen.

If Bonnie Ray ate his lunch where he said he did and where remnants were later found, there is no way anyone could have been in the southeast corner without being seen or heard by him: anyone who's stood at the end of the next set of windows from the "sniper's nest" exhibit on the sixth floor would agree.

If anyone planned on shooting at Kennedy, they'd have had to have been ready to do so no later than 12:25 when the motorcade was scheduled to arrive (five minutes before the 12:30 luncheon at the Trade Mart), and earlier in case the motorcade was ahead of schedule.

If Hank and Junior didn't start to go upstairs until after 12:22 and Bonnie Ray was upstairs until after the other two had arrived on the fifth floor, then Bonnie Ray was on the sixth floor even later than the latest he'd estimated (12:15), to within a minute or so before 12:25 or - if Hank and Junior didn't start up until after the 12:26/27 broadcast of the motorcade's being on Main Street, as late as 12:28 or even 12:29.

Either of those times being so, Bonnie Ray was on the sixth floor when whoever was setting up to shoot was there, and within 20 feet or less from him or them. That being so, if the shooter was Oswald, by the time Williams had much to say to anyone, Oswald was dead: what harm could there possibly be in identifying him as the shooter, eyewitnessed by someone who knew him?

When he heard what he thought was a "backfire," Jack Dougherty was standing "10 feet west of the west elevator," that is, right smack dab where the fleeing Oswald had to have run to get downstairs in time to meet Baker & Truly in the second floor lunch room. Dougherty remained there with the gate up until after Truly yelled up to "let that elevator loose" and began his ascent with Baker by stairs. If Oswald didn't run by - or even into - Jack Dougherty, then he didn't run down the stairs to the lunchroom.

There's more to the story, but this is sufficient to mark the main points: Williams didn't see Oswald and neither did Jack Dougherty, ergo Oswald wasn't there. If they saw anyone else, they didn't say ... and if they saw anyone other than Oswald, they may very well have had something to fear. But if Oswald had done what he supposedly did, then there'd have been no reason not to identify him.

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