Was Oswald an Intelligence Agent?

[Larry Hancock]

Just off the top of my head, Nagell worked for a time in a Army field intelligence while stationed in Korea but when he was stationed in Japan he was assigned to a military intelligence detachment, which would have been a sub organization of one of the Army occupation groups. I've got a lot of his documents from Japan and so does Dick Russell, it probably indicates which specific unit it would have been. Those detachments did a lot of counter intelligence among other duties.

The document you posted looks like a spin off of the Oswald visit info the CIA communicated after Mexico City; as to the Wilcott thing, that another one of those teasers that might mean something if we just has a little more detail. I'm pretty sure Oswald got some spending money for his bar "dangles" (nice work if you can get it) in Japan, who knows if that came from the ONI and then they decided to apply for some CIA funds, etc. Its possible Wilcott could have seen that, especially as it seems that the Navy did a pretty good job of sanitizing the full record pertaining to Oswald, especially in regard to his Japanese tour.

[David Josephs]

So we're good with MID? And yeah, the Oswald Project thing is still unclear.. why wold they bother calling it THAT?

btw, it was not the man Ruby killed who was playing the Honey Bee game... it was LEE who also suffered from other ailments the other man never had.

As I understand the records, LEE was in Atsugi by Sept 12th 1957. Harvey was in NOLA working at Pfisterer Dental living at the Senator Hotel with his caretaker "mom" Harvey does not get to Japan until August 1958 and is soon sent to Ping Tung Taiwan while Lee is still in Atsugi repeatedly going to the doctor for his STD.

He definitely has more money to spend than he ever makes... who that source is, knowing a little about Oswald he'd try to get from FBI, CIA and Military Intel if he could...

I would love to see of those Japan docs if any can refute the timing of Harvey in Taiwan and Lee in Japan.

In CE1961 p3 we learn the dates of Oswald's military stays. http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh23/html/WH_Vol23_0414b.htm

Marines basic training is 13 weeks with 3-8 more weeks of special training if applicable.

CE1961 tells us that Oswald was at basic from Jan 20 to Feb 26 1957... 5 weeks.

CE1962 is Allen Felde telling us the real story of Harvey who was in Basic until MAY, the full 13 weeks, and left with Felde for Jacksonville... which CE1961 says happened in early March. LEE entered the Marines before Harvey and left before him as well...

[Thomas Graves]

Just off the top of my head, Nagell worked for a time in Army field intelligence while stationed in Korea but when he was stationed in Japan he was assigned to a military intelligence detachment, which would have been a sub organization of one of the Army occupation groups. I've got a lot of his documents from Japan and so does Dick Russell, it probably indicates which specific unit it would have been. Those detachments did a lot of counter intelligence among other duties.

The document you posted looks like a spin off of the Oswald visit info the CIA communicated after Mexico City; as to the Wilcott thing, that another one of those teasers that might mean something if we just has a little more detail. I'm pretty sure Oswald got some spending money for his bar "dangles" (nice work if you can get it) in Japan, who knows if that came from the ONI and then they decided to apply for some CIA funds, etc. Its possible Wilcott could have seen that, especially as it seems that the Navy did a pretty good job of sanitizing the full record pertaining to Oswald, especially in regard to his Japanese tour.

Larry,

I think you mean Army's super-secret Field Operations Intelligence.

https://books.google.com/books?id=XJQX-4khd2QC&pg=PA50&lpg=PA50&dq=nagell+foi&source=bl&ots=qp-HOJIxXA&sig=THGa_iOvQRA2cNC9EzNWZkrO6zs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=TOWQVIf1O8vkggS-oYTQAw&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=nagell%20foi&f=false

When you say Nagell worked for a "military intelligence detachment" in Japan, is that the same thing as saying he worked for "MID" with capital letters, as in Military Information Division?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Information_Division_%28United_States%29

Thanks,

--Tommy

PS Here's a Wikipedia article on the Military Intelligence Corps which explains the history and organization of U.S. Army intelligence:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Intelligence_Corps_(United_States_Army)

Edited December 17, 2014 by Thomas Graves

[Larry Hancock]

Tommy, to my understanding Field Operations Intelligence was not quite all that "super secret", it was literally field or "front line" intelligence, conducted by personnel assigned to combat or overseas units and focused on prisoners, captured equipment, interrogations etc or counter intelligence if it was a front line unit faced with potential combat. Which was one of Nagell's assignments in Korea. Actually when the ARRB interviewed personnel from the 112th Military Intelligence Group, they noted several who had previously served in FOI groups during overseas assignments, including in post war occupied Germany.

And as to the latter, all major commands overseas had one or more military intelligence detachments assigned to them; you can find a list of several such groups with some google searching. I suspect Jon Tidd might be more accurate in describing the formal designations than I would be - according to the organization charts there seem to be Military Intelligence Groups, Divisions, Detachments etc. As far as Nagell is concerned I'd have to look up some of his actual personnel documents to find out the formal designation of his unit. Of course all these designations can and do change over time.

[Stephen Roy]

There are, among people of good faith in this field, at least two orientations toward evidence. To generalize, one is quicker to see patterns and draw conclusions, while the other is reluctant to do so unless the evidence rises to a certain level. I guess I'm of the latter type: Very cautious and reluctant to take it beyond what the evidence reasonably allows. I believe, in fact, that the principal reason that mainstream media often fails to take us seriously is that dichotomy.

This is why I occasionally challenge widely-held beliefs. Things which were once suspected by the research community are slowly morphing into firmly enforced beliefs. It was once suspected that Oswald may have had some connection to US intelligence, but it is now regarded by some as a near-certainty.

[William Kelly]

When the Secret Service commissioned a study of assassins and those who have attacked a president they categorized Oswald as a Lone Nut and did not even consider what I call the Covert Operational Personality - COP profile.

Whether Oswald was the lone wolf assassin or a patsy in a bigger scheme - it really doesn't matter, because he fits the COP personality, then whatever you believe happened at Dealey Plaza was a Covert Intelligence Operation and can only be uncovered by a proper Counter-Intelligence investigation by trained CI investigators -,and we have them.

John Tidd, who started this thread, Michael Griffith and John Newman are all such CI trained analysts - and Newman's AARC Conference presentation (posted at CSPAN and transcript at Joe Backes' JusticeforJFK blog) emphasizes not only the need to understand covert operational techniques but to figure out the codes and ciphers used by the players involved.

Peter Dale Scott also wrote about the need to know the nomenclature of the Deep Political covert underworld and I began to try to keep a list of the most relevant ones, as Larry Hancock, John Newman and others have also done.

As Oswald's background became known to the world - Civil Air Patrol, USMC, trained in Russian language (possibly at Monterey Defense Language Institute), defector to USSR, returns with Russian wife, works at J/C/S graphics, FPFC, arrested with DRE, visits Cuban and Russian embassies in Mexico City, accused assassin of president who possibly took shot at Gen. Walker - every CI - intelligence analyst in every country in the world recognized Oswald for what he was - a covert intelligence operator and an agent, asset or operative of some national intelligence network.

BK

[Stephen Roy]

Once again: The evidence allows speculation that Oswald might have had US intelligence connections. It does not rise to the level of certainty.

[Thomas Graves]

On 12/16/2014 at 6:55 PM, Larry Hancock said:

Tommy, to my understanding Field Operations Intelligence was not quite all that "super secret", it was literally field or "front line" intelligence, conducted by personnel assigned to combat or overseas units and focused on prisoners, captured equipment, interrogations etc or counter intelligence if it was a front line unit faced with potential combat. Which was one of Nagell's assignments in Korea. Actually when the ARRB interviewed personnel from the 112th Military Intelligence Group, they noted several who had previously served in FOI groups during overseas assignments, including in post war occupied Germany.

And as to the latter, all major commands overseas had one or more military intelligence detachments assigned to them; you can find a list of several such groups with some google searching. I suspect Jon Tidd might be more accurate in describing the formal designations than I would be - according to the organization charts there seem to be Military Intelligence Groups, Divisions, Detachments etc. As far as Nagell is concerned I'd have to look up some of his actual personnel documents to find out the formal designation of his unit. Of course all these designations can and do change over time.

Larry,

If FOI wasn't super-secret, it's interesting that Dick Russell would write on page 50 of TMWKTM:

During the 1950s, according to Nagell, FOI was considered sacrosanct by Military Intelligence (MI). Both upon his entry into and departure from the organization, "I was required to sign papers subjecting myself to ten years' imprisonment or a ten-thousand-dollar fine, or both, if I disclosed to unauthorized persons the nature of my duties or other classified information, including the fact that an organization existed. I was instructed to never mention the phrase 'Field Operations Intelligence' or the acronym 'FOI' outside of a secure place or in the presence of unauthorized persons, even around headquarters. (19)

On page 51 Russell also wrote:

I also raised the subject of Field Operations Intelligence with a retired Army colonel by the the name of William Bishop during an interview in 1991. I went to see Bishop because I had heard from another source that he might possess some knowledge of Nagell's activities. But I was not prepared for Bishop's reaction when I brought up the subject of FOI. "Where the hell'd you hear that?!" he exclaimed, then added "Let me say this -- walk on eggshells on this one. There are some areas you shouldn't deal in, and this is one of them. Because there's nothing there that you could conceivably make a decent story out of, without hurting a lot of people who don't need to be hurt. And to answer your question -- no comment." (22)

https://books.google.com/books?id=XJQX-4khd2QC&pg=PA50&lpg=PA50&dq=%22field+operations+intelligence%22&source=bl&ots=qp-HOJNC2t&sig=LkeLGWQMbAXYNZci4dEBlINWfXw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=B_uQVMTaL83TgwTukYGYAw&ved=0CEkQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=%22field%20operations%20intelligence%22&f=false

--Tommy

PS Regardless, it will be interesting to see what you come up with regarding Nagell's being assigned to a U.S. Army military intelligence detachment in Japan.

PPS Let us not forget that Nagell also said that he had worked for HID, the Korean military intelligence service.

https://books.google.com/books?id=XJQX-4khd2QC&pg=PA50&lpg=PA50&dq=%22field+operations+intelligence%22&source=bl&ots=qp-HOJNC2t&sig=LkeLGWQMbAXYNZci4dEBlINWfXw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=B_uQVMTaL83TgwTukYGYAw&ved=0CEkQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=hid&f=false

Edited March 27, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Larry Hancock]

Yes Tommy, I'm very aware of what Dick wrote and was when I began to run across it in the ARRB interviews and later elsewhere. Of course those things are situational, for example a field intelligence unit operating in an allied country might be doing things that were not shared with the host nation, making it exceptionally secret at a given point in time. Given what Nagell describes of military intelligence operations in Korea and Japan after the truce that would certainly seem to be likely for those two nations at that time. That could also explain the latter comment, especially if the Col was aware of activities that were quite illegal and involved murder of both foreign agents and even of treasonous American personnel...as Nagell also implied.

Those involved in such activities would not be playing games and most definitely would not want to talk about such activities. In later times and decades, when talking abstractly about the function of field intelligence its another story. Certainly the fellows interviewed by the ARRB considered there assignments as rather routine and simply one facet of their overall careers in Army intelligence.

As to Nagell's files, they are stored in the garage, buried in files and honestly I don't plan to dig into them at this point. Its clear he was assigned to an intelligence detachment and he himself described his activities in fairly great detail, what I recall from the files - including a series of complaints and protests relating to security issues with his marrying a Japanese citizen - was very much in line with what he had told Dick. Dick has the same set of files, many he shared with me and others I shared with him. Once I get my next book in print I really need to get all this stuff, the Crisman and Beckham files, the Plumlee material and a lot of other documents into MFF or to Baylor where folks can do their own research.

[Thomas Graves]

Yes Tommy, I'm very aware of what Dick wrote and was when I began to run across it in the ARRB interviews and later elsewhere. Of course those things are situational, for example a field intelligence unit operating in an allied country might be doing things that were not shared with the host nation, making it exceptionally secret at a given point in time. Given what Nagell describes of military intelligence operations in Korea and Japan after the truce that would certainly seem to be likely for those two nations at that time. That could also explain the latter comment, especially if the Col was aware of activities that were quite illegal and involved murder of both foreign agents and even of treasonous American personnel...as Nagell also implied.

Those involved in such activities would not be playing games and most definitely would not want to talk about such activities. In later times and decades, when talking abstractly about the function of field intelligence its another story. Certainly the fellows interviewed by the ARRB considered there assignments as rather routine and simply one facet of their overall careers in Army intelligence.

As to Nagell's files, they are stored in the garage, buried in files and honestly I don't plan to dig into them at this point. Its clear he was assigned to an intelligence detachment and he himself described his activities in fairly great detail, what I recall from the files - including a series of complaints and protests relating to security issues with his marrying a Japanese citizen - was very much in line with what he had told Dick. Dick has the same set of files, many he shared with me and others I shared with him. Once I get my next book in print I really need to get all this stuff, the Crisman and Beckham files, the Plumlee material and a lot of other documents into MFF or to Baylor where folks can do their own research.

Yes, Larry.

Definitely looking forward to that.

Going back a few posts, are you "good with" the statement by another member that Nagell worked for "MID" ?

Thanks,

--Tommy

[Larry Hancock]

Being the pain in the rear I normally am I'd say I would need more specifics (maybe I will paw through those files after all, its just cold out there) but I would be comfortable with

saying Nagell being an Army military intelligence detachment. Without the records I can't say which one and the only one in Japan I could find (see link below) was formed well after he

left Japan and after the occupation was formally over.

http://www.misawa.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123413210

The way I see it he was assigned to field intel in Korea after coming off the line in active combat and later moved into an intel detachment in Japan. If I get up the nerve and can find the files I'll

see if I can be more specific about Japan. If anybody has my CD "Keys to the Conspiracy" it has a bunch of Nagell files on it and the info might be in there as well. I know it must be in his personnel files though. Also, if you have Dick's newest update of his book, he writes about the new files from Japan and might be more specific about his assignment in there.

[William Kelly]

Once again: The evidence allows speculation that Oswald might have had US intelligence connections. It does not rise to the level of certainty.

If you aren't certain Oswald was a covert operative just knowing his basic background - then you are only fooling yourself.

If it looks like a duck, walks like one, quacks like one - it's a duck.

Oswald was trained by the Civil Air Patrol and USMC, and such specialties as radar, electronics, communications and the Russian language, he used PO boxes, kept an apartment away from his family, used codes, ciphers, intelligence trade craft and counter - surveillance techniques that he utilized in the aftermath of the assassination.

He had intelligence associations with numerous others - deMornschildt-Paines-Phillips - all with intelligence agency connections - a domestic intelligence network that is only now being exposed - and one that is still functioning today.

Oswald was also associated with a number of other covet ops - including his defection, the Houma Arms bunker raid, the Walker shooting, the FPCC, the DRE in New Orleans and the Mexico City operation, each of which tells us something about him - he was not crazy or deranged and as all of the CI investigations have concluded - was not capable of committing the assassination alone, was not a shooter and as the evidence indicates - was probably framed as the patsy as he claimed to be.

Now I don't believe he was set up by Clay Shaw, David Ferrie and the New Orleans Yahoos who did the Houma Bunker raid - the Dealey Plaza Operation was a real slick job set up as a Northwinds type operation to blame Castro, a disinformation op only JFK's enemies in Washington and the Pentagon were capable of pulling off.

If you believe Oswald the psycho motivated lone nut assassin you can go home - or content yourself with your beliefs, but if you recognize Oswald for what he is - a Covert Operational Personality profile - and that the assassination was a covert intel op by a domestic intel network then you can participate in the Counter-Intelligence investigation that must be conducted to expose and counter that network.

This must be done for reasons of national security, the same reason the government is using to deny us the records they continue to with hold to protect that network.

BK

Once again: The evidence allows speculation that Oswald might have had US intelligence connections. It does not rise to the level of certainty.

If you aren't certain Oswald was a covert operative just knowing just his basic background - then you are only fooling yourself.

If it looks like one, walks like one, quacks like one - it's a duck.

Oswald was trained by the Civil Air Patrol and USMC, and such specialties as radar, electronics, communications and the Russian language, he used PO boxes, kept an apartment away from his family, used codes, ciphers, intelligence trade craft and counter - surveillance techniques that he utilized in the aftermath of the asElmer Jenkins, had organized the assassination. He also

named Rafael (Chi Chi) Quintero as one of the gunman. Up until that time

Jenkins name hadsassination. He had intelligence associations with numerous others - deMornschildt-Paines-Phillips - all with intelligence agency connections - a domestic intelligence network that is only now being exposed - and one that is still functioning today.

Oswald was also associated with a number of other covet ops - including his defection, the Houma Arms bunker raid, the Walker shooting, the FPCC, the DRE in New Orleans and the Mexico City operation, each of which tells us something about him - he was not crazy or deranged and as all of the CI investigations have concluded - was not capable of committing the assassination alone, was not a shooter and as the evidence indicates - was probably framed as the patsy as he claimed to be.

Now I don't believe he was set up by Clay Shaw, David Ferrie and the New Orleans Yahoos who did the Houma Bunker raid - the Dealey Plaza Operation was a real slick job set up as a Northwinds type operation to blame Castro, a disinformation op only JFK's enemies in Washington and the Pentagon were capable of pulling off.

If you believe Oswald the psycho motivated lone nut assassin you can go home - or content yourself with your beliefs, but if you recognize Oswald for what he is - a Covert Operational Personality profile - and that the assassination was a covert intel op by a domestic intel network then you can participate in the Counter-Intelligence investigation that must be conducted to expose and counter that network.

This must be done for reasons of national security, the same reason the government is using to deny us the records they continue to with hold to protect that network.

BK

Edited December 17, 2014 by William Kelly

[Thomas Graves]

On 12/16/2014 at 8:34 PM, William Kelly said:

On 12/16/2014 at 8:34 PM, William Kelly said:

On 12/16/2014 at 7:13 PM, Stephen Roy said:

Once again: The evidence allows speculation that Oswald might have had US intelligence connections. It does not rise to the level of certainty.

If you aren't certain Oswald was a covert operative just knowing his basic background - then you are only fooling yourself.

If it looks like a duck, walks like one, quacks like one - it's a duck.

Oswald was trained by the Civil Air Patrol and USMC, and such specialties as radar, electronics, communications and the Russian language, he used PO boxes, kept an apartment away from his family, used codes, ciphers, intelligence trade craft and counter - surveillance techniques that he utilized in the aftermath of the assassination.

He had intelligence associations with numerous others - deMornschildt-Paines-Phillips - all with intelligence agency connections - a domestic intelligence network that is only now being exposed - and one that is still functioning today.

Oswald was also associated with a number of other covet ops - including his defection, the Houma Arms bunker raid, the Walker shooting, the FPCC, the DRE in New Orleans and the Mexico City operation, each of which tells us something about him - he was not crazy or deranged and as all of the CI investigations have concluded - was not capable of committing the assassination alone, was not a shooter and as the evidence indicates - was probably framed as the patsy as he claimed to be.

Now I don't believe he was set up by Clay Shaw, David Ferrie and the New Orleans Yahoos who did the Houma Bunker raid - the Dealey Plaza Operation was a real slick job set up as a Northwinds type operation to blame Castro, a disinformation op only JFK's enemies in Washington and the Pentagon were capable of pulling off.

If you believe Oswald the psycho motivated lone nut assassin you can go home - or content yourself with your beliefs, but if you recognize Oswald for what he is - a Covert Operational Personality profile - and that the assassination was a covert intel op by a domestic intel network then you can participate in the Counter-Intelligence investigation that must be conducted to expose and counter that network.

This must be done for reasons of national security, the same reason the government is using to deny us the records they continue to with hold to protect that network.

BK

On 12/16/2014 at 7:13 PM, Stephen Roy said:

Once again: The evidence allows speculation that Oswald might have had US intelligence connections. It does not rise to the level of certainty.

If you aren't certain Oswald was a covert operative just knowing just his basic background - then you are only fooling yourself.

If it looks like one, walks like one, quacks like one - it's a duck.

Oswald was trained by the Civil Air Patrol and USMC, and such specialties as radar, electronics, communications and the Russian language, he used PO boxes, kept an apartment away from his family, used codes, ciphers, intelligence trade craft and counter - surveillance techniques that he utilized in the aftermath of the asElmer Jenkins, had organized the assassination. He also

named Rafael (Chi Chi) Quintero as one of the gunman. Up until that time

Jenkins name hadsassination. He had intelligence associations with numerous others - deMornschildt-Paines-Phillips - all with intelligence agency connections - a domestic intelligence network that is only now being exposed - and one that is still functioning today.

Oswald was also associated with a number of other covet ops - including his defection, the Houma Arms bunker raid, the Walker shooting, the FPCC, the DRE in New Orleans and the Mexico City operation, each of which tells us something about him - he was not crazy or deranged and as all of the CI investigations have concluded - was not capable of committing the assassination alone, was not a shooter and as the evidence indicates - was probably framed as the patsy as he claimed to be.

Now I don't believe he was set up by Clay Shaw, David Ferrie and the New Orleans Yahoos who did the Houma Bunker raid - the Dealey Plaza Operation was a real slick job set up as a Northwinds type operation to blame Castro, a disinformation op only JFK's enemies in Washington and the Pentagon were capable of pulling off.

If you believe Oswald the psycho motivated lone nut assassin you can go home - or content yourself with your beliefs, but if you recognize Oswald for what he is - a Covert Operational Personality profile - and that the assassination was a covert intel op by a domestic intel network then you can participate in the Counter-Intelligence investigation that must be conducted to expose and counter that network.

This must be done for reasons of national security, the same reason the government is using to deny us the records they continue to with hold to protect that network.

BK

One thing that prevents me from believing that Oswald was an "Intelligence Agent" is the fact that he always seemed to be living "from hand to mouth", eating a cheese sandwich and an apple for lunch, etc., etc. Didn't he tell Dean Andrews that he was being paid $20 to hand out FPCC fliers? Hmmm... Maybe I'm wrong. After all, $20 in 1963 is worth a whopping $154.26 today. (Which means that William Cox, a loan officer at Jack Ruby's bank, saw Ruby carrying about $54,000 in today's dollars ($7000) on 11/24/63. Which he didn't deposit, by the way. But he only had about $15,426 in today's dollars ($2000) on him after killing Oswald. Question: Had he already given the balance to Sgt. Dean and other Dallas policemen in exchange for certain "favors"?)

In this transcript of an excellent and recent John Newman presentation (with which Douglas Caddy started a new thread), Newman quotes the daughter of George Joannides' CIA boss, William M. Kent, as claiming that Kent, when asked about the JFK assassination, said "Oswald was a useful idiot."

http://justiceforkennedy.blogspot.com/2014/11/transcript-with-documents-and-links-to.html?zx=1f29fd03d828c331

--Tommy

Edited March 27, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Brancato]

Bill - first of all you are right on the money. The typo is interesting. Would you look at your post again and explain the reference to Jenkins and Rafael Quintero? It looks like you made an edit of some kind.

[Paul Brancato]

Jon - perhaps you missed my short response to something you posted about Oswald being controlled by someome unknown. With your experience do you think it possible that Angleton in the first place kept close track of Oswald, and in the second could have launched a search for someone who hijacked his operative in MC while knowing the answer beforehand, in order to distance himself from this new phase of Oswald's life that ended at Dealey Plaza?

Edited December 17, 2014 by Paul Brancato