Jump to content
The Education Forum

Who Instigated the Dallas Trip, and When?


Recommended Posts

[quote name='Brendan Slattery' date='Jul 23 2006, 08:22 PM' post='69965']

Well, this is perfect. Exactly ten days later, Buell's sister Linnie Mae has a coffee klatch with her neighbors, Ruth Hyde Paine dials a little ringy-dingy, and the next day Oswald is hired at the TSBD.

The "lone assassin theory" nutcases don't even have any toys to pick up before they go home. They just need to report in to their handlers now for a different assignment.

Ashton

Welcome to Buff Land, where a coincidence is never a coincidence. Should Mrs. Paine file her defamation suit in her state or yours, Ashton?

B. S. Why don't you find some other planet to haunt. Don't you realize that no-one likes you around here? Even the other Lone Nutters think you're full of s***

Dawn

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 94
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

[quote name='Brendan Slattery' date='Jul 23 2006, 08:22 PM' post='69965']

Well, this is perfect. Exactly ten days later, Buell's sister Linnie Mae has a coffee klatch with her neighbors, Ruth Hyde Paine dials a little ringy-dingy, and the next day Oswald is hired at the TSBD.

The "lone assassin theory" nutcases don't even have any toys to pick up before they go home. They just need to report in to their handlers now for a different assignment.

Ashton

Welcome to Buff Land, where a coincidence is never a coincidence. Should Mrs. Paine file her defamation suit in her state or yours, Ashton?

B. S. Why don't you find some other planet to haunt. Don't you realize that no-one likes you around here? Even the other Lone Nutters think you're full of s***

Dawn

You're not on my Christmas Card list either. This ain't one of your slumber parties, Dawny. You can't unilaterally throw me out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

B. S. Why don't you find some other planet to haunt. Don't you realize that no-one likes you around here? Even the other Lone Nutters think you're full of s***

Dawn

You're not on my Christmas Card list either. This ain't one of your slumber parties, Dawny. You can't unilaterally throw me out.

Bredan, If you would just trouble yourself to become aqainted with even the basic "JFK assassinatin 101-for dummies" you could actually add to this debate, instead of just hanging out to insult people who are quite serious about the very evil of which brings us here. Those who are serious about confronting evil and seeking justice, that is. Why are you here? Can you ever, for even a moment, rise above your superficial and transparent arrogance and attempt to transcend your simple lack of any relevent, salient facts about these matters? You come here whoring for the so- called power brokers.

But why? Do you enjoy the wrath you find here?

"Slumber parties"? People who toil to attempt to force our evil government to become forthcoming and honest barely sleep, so, "slumber parties"? Hardly. For a PR guy you have little to say.

Bye, and you can have the last word as I will not engage in your cowardly mockery of something that is deadly serious to the rest of us here.

Dawn Meredith

Link to comment
Share on other sites

B. S. Why don't you find some other planet to haunt. Don't you realize that no-one likes you around here? Even the other Lone Nutters think you're full of s***

Dawn

You're not on my Christmas Card list either. This ain't one of your slumber parties, Dawny. You can't unilaterally throw me out.

Bredan, If you would just trouble yourself to become aqainted with even the basic "JFK assassinatin 101-for dummies" you could actually add to this debate, instead of just hanging out to insult people who are quite serious about the very evil of which brings us here. Those who are serious about confronting evil and seeking justice, that is. Why are you here? Can you ever, for even a moment, rise above your superficial and transparent arrogance and attempt to transcend your simple lack of any relevent, salient facts about these matters? You come here whoring for the so- called power brokers.

But why? Do you enjoy the wrath you find here?

"Slumber parties"? People who toil to attempt to force our evil government to become forthcoming and honest barely sleep, so, "slumber parties"? Hardly. For a PR guy you have little to say.

Bye, and you can have the last word as I will not engage in your cowardly mockery of something that is deadly serious to the rest of us here.

Dawn Meredith

Sigh. Another post riddled with spelling errors. Ever heard of proofreading? I guess Harvard "night school" ain't what it used to be. Dawny, the problem is that your worldview is so brittle and tenuous that you can't handle any form of dissent. You wrap yourself in conspiracy theories like a warm blanket. You have no idea how to confront the growing danger of Islamofascism, so you deflect these fears and anxieties by clinging to bizarre, hate-filled, anti-US theories instead--as if that'll make our enemies go away. I've got news for you: the jihadists who despise us and want to destroy our civilization hated us long before W and will hate us long after he departs. Praying at the altar of Jack White isn't going to make us any safer, but that appears to be your gameplan. God help us all.

Stanford historian Russell Berman:

Anti-Americanism functions like a prejudice, magnifying the power and presence of its presumed opponent, turning it into a ubiquitous threat. The empirical superiority of American military power, for example is transformed by the anti-Americanist imagination into a fantasy of infinite omnipotence: there is no evil in the world that cannot be blamed on American action. . . . Anti-Semites, similarly, have always been able to imagine an ineluctable network of Jewish power. As a paranoid fantasy, anti-Americanism is cut from the same cloth. Instead of facing up to the detailed complexity of reality, it can only see Washington's hands controlling every conflict. . . . Anti-Americanism is not a reasoned response to American policies; it is a hysterical surplus that goes beyond reason. That difference is evident in the constant recycling of anti-American images that have a history that long antedates current policy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You have no idea how to confront the growing danger of Islamofascism...

This ain't the Islamofascism forum, Slithery.

Before you start trying to give anybody else directions, it might be a prudent idea to figure out where you are first.

Ashton Gray

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You have no idea how to confront the growing danger of Islamofascism...

This ain't the Islamofascism forum, Slithery.

It is when—

No, it isn't, ever. How far do I have to dumb this down to get it where you can find it?

Ashton Gray

Edited by Ashton Gray
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You have no idea how to confront the growing danger of Islamofascism...

This ain't the Islamofascism forum, Slithery.

It is when—

No, it isn't, ever. How far do I have to dumb this down to get it where you can find it?

Ashton Gray

This from a guy who flooded the forum with off-topic Watergate bilge. Still living in 1974, huh Ash?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You have no idea how to confront the growing danger of Islamofascism...

This ain't the Islamofascism forum, Slithery.

It is when—

No, it isn't, ever. How far do I have to dumb this down to get it where you can find it?

Ashton Gray

Ah, yes. These are the type of threads Brendan and his fellow members of "Team America" like to interrupt. (Their headquarters are inside Mount Rushmore you know).

That's because a thread like this has the potential to make serious progress in this case.

As for the pivotal question of who in the White House extended the Texas trip by a day in order to squeeze in a motorcade, I don't know but I would suggest LBJ as a leading candidate. I've read that in the weeks leading to November 22, when it aqppeared that JFK may have been wavering, LBJ was quite insistent on the Texas trip going ahead as planned. (Sorry, I can't find the reference but I'll try to dig it up).

Edited by Mark Stapleton
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Planning the Texas trip:

connally_Small.jpg

From Connally’s WC testimony:

Mr. SPECTER. Well, just a very brief picture leading up to the trip, Governor, starting with whatever point you think would be most appropriate to give some outline of the origin of the trip.

Governor CONNALLY. Well, it had been thought that he should come to Texas for a period of many months, as a matter of fact. There was some thought given to it during 1962. The trip kept being delayed. Finally in the fall of 1963 it was decided that he definitely should come, or should come in the fall of last year as opposed to waiting until this year, when his appearance might have more political overtones.

So I came up, I have forgotten the exact date, around the middle of October and talked to him about it, discussed the details, asked him what he would like to do.

He goes into considerable detail on the origins of the trip in his HSCA testimony:

Mr. CORNWELL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Governor Connally, I would like to begin by asking you if it would be accurate to state that you had a leading role in the decisionmaking process that led to the President's trip to Dallas on November 22, 1963?

Mr. CONNALLY. Yes, Mr. Cornwell, it certainly would be accurate to say that.

Mr. CORNWELL. When did the possibility of that trip first become a matter of concern to you?

Mr. CONNALLY. Mr. Cornwell, I wouldn't characterize it as a matter of concern, but the possibility of a trip to Texas arose, as I recall, in the spring of 1962.

Mr. CORNWELL. What were you doing during that period of time?

Mr. CONNALLY. In 1962, I was running for Governor of Texas, in the midst of a campaign. Vice President Johnson told me then that President Kennedy wanted to come to Texas, he wanted to come to Texas to raise some money, have some fund raising affairs over the State.

I was not the least bit interested, very frankly, at that point in time, in trying to put together a trip, sponsoring a dinner, for a number of reasons.

First, I was in the midst of a primary battle. I was running against an incumbent Governor, an incumbent attorney general, and a number of other candidates. The first poll that came out after I announced my candidacy indicated that I had 4 percent of the votes. So, I had an uphill climb in the battle.

I fortunately led the primary campaign but went into a runoff with a young man, then the leader of the liberal element of the Democratic Party in Texas, named Don Yarborough. I was successful in the runoff in winning the primary runoff, but then was confronted with very, very determined, well-financed, extremely able opposition in the general election.

So frankly, I kept putting off any proposed trip to Texas, again, for a number of reasons. First, every hour, every bit of energy that any of us had was directed toward my own campaign that year. I didn't think we had the organization, I didn't think we had the time, I didn't think it was the appropriate time to try to bring the President into the State. I didn't think we could do credit to a visit, so I kept delaying it, not with standing the continuous and repeated suggestions from the Vice President who, frankly, was being needled by the President.

The President was making it quite clear to the Vice President, Mr, Johnson, that he wanted to come to Texas and he wanted to raise some money in Texas.

I can pause there, Mr. Cornwell.

Mr. CORNWELL. That answers the question. Let me ask you, if you were just beginning to run in the primaries, why was it that the President's desire to have a trip to Texas was brought to your attention? Why was it that you were asked at that point to take part in the trip?

Mr. CONNALLY. Well, I think first, I had known President Kennedy since the early 1950's. I had been vice chairman of the Texas delegation to the national convention in Chicago in 1956 when we supported Mr. Kennedy then, Senator Kennedy, as Vice Presidential nominee on the national ticket with Mr. Stevenson.

I had, as you know, as Mr. Blakey just recounted, I had been appointed by President Kennedy as Secretary of the Navy and had served in the year 1961 as Secretary of the Navy. I, as a matter of fact, not only talked to Mr. McNamara, but I had gone and talked to President Kennedy before I went home to run for Governor.

So I was certainly, at that point, probably the Texan, outside of Vice President Johnson, who was closest to the Kennedy administration, and I think it was normal and natural that they would expect me to become involved in it.

Mr. CORNWELL. Why, at that point in time, did you understand the President wanted to come to Texas?

Mr. CONNALLY. There was never any doubt in my mind about it. There was never any doubt in the President's mind or Vice President's mind. He wanted to come to Texas for two reasons: First, to raise money; second, to enhance his own political fortunes in Texas. No doubt about it. No other reason. Much has been written, much has been speculated, but I assure you over many, many months, it was very obvious, very clear that that was the purpose.

As a matter of fact, in 1963, after the--let me digress a moment. After the campaign was over in November 1962, and I had been successfully elected Governor, then I had only 60 days between November and January in order to build a staff and to develop a budget, to develop a legislative program to submit to the legislature on approximately January 20. This was my first legislative session of 120 days and, again, I resisted any proposed Presidential trips to Texas because I was totally absorbed and consumed, all of my energies, all of my staff, with the legislative program.

It was obvious, though, that as soon as that was over, we were going to have to have a trip. I was perfectly willing, at this time, to undertake to organize one, but all during this period of time, it was quite clear that the President wanted to come for the purposes for which I have stated; namely, to raise money; second, to enhance his political fortunes in Texas.

I must say that at that point in time, I don't remember the figures exactly, but the President was not extremely popular in Texas, nor was he in the country. He wasn't unpopular. He had had a very bitter campaign in 1960. He carried Texas by 46,000 votes, approximately 46,200-some-odd votes, with Vice President Johnson on the ticket with him. So, it had been an extremely close, extremely hard-fought election.

The President had brought great elan, he had brought great culture, he brought great dignity and excitement to the White House, but in spite of that, his legislative program had not faired all that well. He was not that popular in the country and his popularity had diminished considerably, as a matter of fact.

He was already looking at 1964 and the campaign of 1964. He had been traveling all ,over the country. He made it quite clear that in 1964, if he didn't carry but two States, he wanted to carry Massachusetts and Texas, and he wanted to come to Texas. So, it was obvious to me--again, my reluctance m encouraging the trip, as a matter of fact, it was more than reluctance; I resisted the trip, very frankly; I didn't encourage it, I resisted it for the reasons that I have already explained.

In 1962, I was involved in the campaigning; the first 120 days of 1963, I was involved in legislative session and if he was coming, I wanted him to come to achieve the objectives that he wanted; namely, to raise the money; second, to structure the trip in such a way that he would benefit from it politically.

Mr. CORNWELL. During this approximate 1-year period, from the early part of 1961 through the period of the first part of 1962 when, as you described, you were engaged primarily with trying to put together a staff, being a new Governor, and getting your legislative program through the legislature, the hints continued to come that the President wanted to come to Texas, you continued to stall, why didn't the President just come on his own?

Mr. CONNALLY. He could have, but he obviously didn't want to. I had been elected in a rather, I guess I would have to describe it as a surprising election. I had frankly been elected by the people that President Kennedy needed the most, by the moderates and the conservatives of the State. He obviously had the most liberal wing of the party already for him. They had supported him. In 1960, in the campaign, they were still for him. What he was looking for and what he was really chafed about was the fact

that the moderate and conservative elements of the country, not just Texas, but the whole country, were not supporting him, that he was characterized as being antibusiness, and part of that, I think, was the result of his actions with respect to steel prices.

But, nevertheless, I think this irritated him and he said so, and he

didn't understand it, and he, on one occasion, said to me, that, "If these business people are silly enough to think that I am going to dismantle this free enterprise system, they are crazy."

So, I think it was obvious that he wanted to come on a basis that he could talk to, and hopefully appeal to, the very people that had not supported him, because he was looking at a tough election, at least in our part of the country, in 1964.

Mr. CORNWELL. Well, if, then, he basically needed someone to help with the planning arrangements, to achieve the ends that he sought, which was fund raising and improving his political posture in the State, why didn't he just ask the Vice President, who was also from Texas, to arrange those matters for him?

Mr. CONNALLY. Well, for the simple reason that I had been able to build a pretty successful organization in Texas and the Governor is the titular head of the party of his State, and, frankly, the Governor of any State, regardless of his party, Republican or Democrat, is the titular head of the party and he sets the political tone of the State, and it would be inconceivable and President Kennedy was too good a politician to try to come to Texas without my wholehearted support, or at least tacit approval, and the Vice President certainly would not have done it.

For one of these trips, it is not just as simple as saying, let's go to Texas. This requires an incredible amount of planning, organization, detail, harassment, haranguing. We went through weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks of this. So the idea that they are just going to pick up and come, I don't think was attractive to them at all.

It was obvious that the President never seriously considered that. He obviously could have come any time he wanted to and so could the Vice President, and the Vice President was down during this period of time--1962-63--on a number of occasions. But they didn't want to attempt to arrange the type of affair that they were interested in without my personal involvement and without the involvement of the State party machinery that I had constructed.

Mr. CORNWELL. Did there come a time when you finally couldn't avoid or push back the hints any longer?

Mr. CONNALLY. Yes. The President was making a trip out through the West, in the summer, I believe, of 1963. He was going to Colorado, New Mexico, and perhaps other States. In any event, he was in El Paso and I met him in El Paso, and the minute I walked into the room where they were---

Mr. CORNWELL. What kind of room was it?

Mr. CONNALLY. A hotel room. I have forgotten. I believe the Casa Del Norte Hotel. The Vice President was there, President Kennedy was there, and several of the staff people. Kenny O'Donnell, as I recall, was there, and the President made some remark about, "Well, Lyndon, are we ever going to get this trip to Texas worked out?" Obviously he wasn't speaking to me, but he was speaking to me, but he was addressing Vice President Johnson.

Vice President Johnson said, "Well, the Governor is here, Mr. President, let's find out."

Mr. CORNWELL. At this point--

Mr. CONNALLY. I knew at that point my string had run out. I knew we were going to have a trip to Texas, and I was perfectly willing to do it because I had gotten through a legislative session in fairly good order and we had the time, I had been able to rebuild the structure of the Democratic Party, and we were prepared to organize the trip.

So, I said, in effect, "Mr. President, when do you want to come?" Then he said, he said, "Well, I think we ought to have four dinners," and I was in a state of shock. He said, "I think we ought to have four or five fund raising dinners," and he said, "What do you think about having it on Lyndon's birthday, August 27?" This was in June, as I recall.

And again I said, "Mr. President, I would like to think about that. Obviously the Vice President s birthday is always a time for celebration, but August is the worst month of the year to have a fund raising affair in Texas, for anybody. Too many people are gone, it is the dog days, it is the hottest month of the year, people are on vacation, they are not interested in politics, we can't get the support, and I think it would be a serious mistake to come in August."

Well, we didn't decide at that particular meeting in El Paso when the date would be, but I said, "We will think about it" and I said in effect, "Let me do some planning. Let me do some thinking and we will be back in touch with you and I will suggest a trip, a format of a trip that I think will achieve the purposes that you want to achieve."

The date of Connally’s visit to the White House was October 4. I think the above photo may have been taken at the June meeting in Texas, as I have not seen a walkway like that at the White House.

FWIW, LBJ according to Connally was very upset about the October 4 meeting, because he had not been included in it. This would seem to suggest that LBJ was out of the loop in terms of details of a Texas assassination plot (or that he and Connally both were).

From Connally’s HSCA testimony:

(The President) and I were in the Oval Office and he couldn't have been nicer, couldn't have been more friendly, he got up from behind his desk and came around and was extremely warm and cordial, as he always was. He sat in the rocking chair and I sat in one of those little couches there in the Oval Room and I frankly was a bit surprised that the Vice President wasn't there. But he wasn't. And later I heard about it, because after my visit with the President, I went out that evening to "the Elms," to the Vice President's home and he was considerably irritated with me, and he said so, and he said, "I suppose you think I don't have any interest in what is happening in Texas," and I said, "No, Mr. Vice President, I know you are extremely interested in what is happening in Texas.'

He said, "Why didn't you tell me?" I said, "Mr. Vice President, I assumed you knew I was going to see the President,' and I said, trying to alibi any way I could, because I recognized that he was really irritated about it,' and I said, After all, I made this appointment several days ago and it is not my prerogative to say who is in that Oval Office, I assumed if the President wanted you there you would be there."

"Well," he said, "you could have told me beforehand what you had in mind."

I said, "You have known basically what I had in mind. In any event, here is what we said," and I recounted to him that I proposed that we visit the five major cities, Dallas, Houston, Fort Worth, San Antonio, culminating in a dinner in Austin, and then I apologized to the Vice President and said, "I am sorry, I should have talked to you before I went in to see the President. Frankly, I assumed you would be there. When I got into the Oval Office and I was rather surprised that you weren't, but having the appointment I had no choice but to go ahead and discuss it," and then I said, "But here is what we said." I recounted the conversation as best I could and we proceeded from there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ron,

From the info you posted, it would seem that the details of the Texas trip itinerary had not been finalised before Connally's meeting with JFK on October 4. This would make the period October 4 to October 14 the critical time during which the motorcade was appended to the schedule. Can Cliff Carter's claim that the motorcade was added in September be verified?

Edited by Mark Stapleton
Link to comment
Share on other sites

From Connally’s WC testimony:

...

Damn, Ron: you cleared the bases with that one! Grand slam! :D

What a reluctant lady Connally was, huh? Gee. That's about the longest bout of foreplay I've ever read of anywhere.

And Kennedy just wouldn't go to Texas unless they could hold hands. Uh-huh. I'm sure that's just the way it all happened. Except for this one little thing...

I had, as you know, as Mr. Blakey just recounted, I had been appointed by President Kennedy as Secretary of the Navy and had served in the year 1961 as Secretary of the Navy. I, as a matter of fact, not only talked to Mr. McNamara, but I had gone and talked to President Kennedy before I went home to run for Governor.

Whoa! It's a threesome.

Now, I'm trying to think who else would have been all up in there...

Oh, yeah! Daniel Ellsberg. Beginning at almost the same time as Connally started as Secretary of the Navy, Ellsberg became a consultant from Rand for the Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security Affairs (ISA), with "go anywhere see anything" kinds of clearances. And just try to guess who the Deputy Secretary of Defense for ISA was at the time! It was Ellsberg's good buddy Harry Rowan, who would then become head of Rand, and a few years later have the McNamara report slipped into some briefcases and handed to Ellsberg.

There's more to come on this. I hope Bentand Slithery's people get him a case of No-Doz and a copy of The Big Book of Vapid One-Liners. He's gonna' need it.

Ashton

Edited by Ashton Gray
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've read that in the weeks leading to November 22, when it aqppeared that JFK may have been wavering, LBJ was quite insistent on the Texas trip going ahead as planned. (Sorry, I can't find the reference but I'll try to dig it up).

If you can that sure would be interesting, Mark, especially the part about JFK wavering, since Connally tries to make it sound like the President of the United States was following him around like a lap-dog begging for a chance to come to Texas.

Curiouser and curiouser...

Ashton

Edited by Ashton Gray
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not aware of any wavering on JFK's part about the Texas trip. Salinger, in his book With Kennedy, does quote JFK as telling him, before Salinger left for Hawaii and Japan, "I wish I wasn't going to Texas." But according to Salinger, this was simply an expression of fatigue, JFK having done considerable traveling.

JFK's secretary Evelyn Lincoln, in her book Kennedy and Johnson, says of Connally's October visit to the White House, "His main purpose was to urge the President to come down to Texas to help bring the feuding factions together." That is incorrect, Lincoln seemingly unaware that the trip had been in the works since June, with the purpose of the October visit being to start working on details. Yet Lincoln says, "After (Connally) left I remember what Mr. Kennedy said: 'He sure seemed anxious for me to go to Texas.'"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Carolyn Barta, The Dallas Morning News January 27, 2004:

Mr. Kennedy's trip actually was designed to repair divisions in the Texas Democratic Party between factions led by conservative Gov. John Connally and liberal U.S. Sen. Ralph Yarborough. Most Texans were Democrats, but the party was split between conservatives and liberal-loyalists.

Since the Dallas luncheon was sponsored by conservative business leaders – the Dallas Citizens Council – liberal-loyalists were left out of the planning. According to Darwin Payne, Dallas historian and former journalist and professor, Barefoot Sanders (who would become a federal judge) went to the powers-that-be and demanded lunch tickets for Democratic Party loyalists.

The visit also was designed to boost JFK in Texas. A Houston Chronicle poll the day of the assassination showed Republican Barry Goldwater leading in Texas a year before the election. And LBJ wanted to make sure he was picked again as vice president by building support for the ticket in Texas.

It was a multifaceted political plot that quickly became unimportant after the assassination.

http://www.dallasnews.com/s/dws/spe/2003/j...arta.1133c.html

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...