Op Dallas

[Charles Drago]

Further - to continue on this bit - it would appear that the operation also made use of doubles - precedent with the doubling of Oswald -- Haven't been able to work that all out yet - but lookalikes may have been used for the purpose of both obfuscation as well as the protection of the identity of the operatives. Ever hear anything like that?

- lee

The use of doubles for the purposes you cite is an absolutely key insight into the identities of the prime facilitators not only of the JFK assassination, but of other deep political operations across a broad swath of history.

From Richard Popkin through John Armstrong and beyond, the doppelganger at play in the JFK conspiracy is well documented.

If the operation to kill the president is best understood as drama (or, if you prefer, a dramatic construct; Evica's original theory, one that I wholeheartedly endorse), then you would be well advised to find a copy of The Double in Literature, by Robert Rogers (Wayne State University Press, 1970).

Rogers, on "the functions of doubling," offers this:

"If a character is not what he seems to be in the sense of being a fragment rather than a whole, it may be asked if he is real ... [R]econsider [Angus] Fletcher's assumptions when he states that the allegorical hero 'is not so much a real person' as he is a 'generator' of secondary personalities, partial aspects of himself." (emphasis in original)

Later, discussing what he terms "doubling for dramatic conflict," Rogers notes, "In essence, doubling of characters does not simply make the representation of intrapsychic conflict possible; it allows for the potential development of that conflict in the most dramatic way possible ... a dynamic opposition of psychic forces permeates practically all modes of literature. Shaw's dictum, 'No conflict, no drama,' goes right to the heart of the matter for the genre he was most interested in. It is impossible to think of any play deserving the name drama which is without sharp conflict. What obviously holds for the drama might not seem to obtain for so-called nondramatic literature; but to say so is to mistake conventional label for literal fact."

I would argue that the primary function of the double in an intelligence operation such as the JFK assassination is to create cognitive dissonance -- conflict -- in the minds of investigators and witnesses.

To the degree that John Armstrong buttresses the "two Oswalds" perceptions, he simultaneously exposes and abets the agenda of the author(s) of the LHO doppelganger play-within-a-play.

Two Oswalds. Two Zapruder Films. Two sets of autopsy notes. Two sets of X-rays. Two sets of autopsy photos.

Pre-Oswald? Take a look at the case of Gordon Lonsdale.

As far as JFK is concerned: Who had the literary background to create such a drama? Who were the writers among the suspects?

Charles Drago

Edited July 8, 2007 by Charles Drago

[Charles Drago]

And how can I leave out ...

TWO conflicting conclusions by official United States government panels investigating the assassination.

Charles

[Ron Ecker]

Lee,

My only question on the van or other vehicle parked just beyond the overpass on the south side is the distance from the limo. The limo was not in the closest lane. I believe it was in the far north lane, to enter the ramp to the freeway. Though I know nothing about explosives, I wonder if any vehicle with a bomb in that area was close enough to the passing limo to ensure death to its occupants. I assume it would have to be one hell of a bomb, killing everyone within many yards of the vehicle.

As for the potential patsies for the bomb, the tramps in a train car loaded with explosives (and assuming that the operation was to be blamed on Castro), of all the usual tramp suspects (Holt, Hunt, Crisman, Sturgis, Harrelson, Frenchy, Abrams, Gedney, and Doyle), what possible connection did any of them have to Cuba?

Ron

[Charles Drago]

Another common element of the doppelganger phenomenon is termed bi-locality -- a character impossibly being in two places at the same time.

Thus the "impossibility" of LHO being in Mexico and the U.S. simultaneously, for one of many examples, fits the pattern.

Further, I would suggest that this and related condundra, far from revealing flaws in the assassination plot (in both senses of the word), rather are well-designed, intentionally executed, critically significant elements of that plot.

So we are prompted to ask: Was LHO in Mexico or elsewhere?

We are prompted to choose A OR B. (And as a consequence of so doing, we remain mired in an "endless" mystery that in fact was solved a long time ago.)

When in fact the NULL A, NULL B option -- or a third alternative -- reveals the truth.

Was LHO in Mexico or elsewhere?

The answer is YES, if the subject of the question is the dramatic character LHO.

Charles

Edited July 8, 2007 by Charles Drago

[Lee Forman]

Lee:

What is your opinion of Edward Lansdale's presence and role? Was he not well known for his unique expertise in being the "producer" of such complex operations (along with Lucien Conein). If so, then doubles, actors and diversions were more the mark of a professional... and clearly not the signiture of crooks/mobsters, gun-runners and nightclub managers, passionate exiles, right-wing radicals and low level intelligence dangles. Something highly coordinated occurred that day.

Gene

Great question Gene - I don't have much to offer. The overall system of ops - some that never even commenced, others that may have interacted or overlapped - it's really tough to get a good handle on - even if you were to add up all of these various operators that came forward and defined their roles. Lansdale - don't know. I read enough about him to create doubts, in my mind anyway, as to his having been involved. To be honest, the most amazing piece for me of this post relates to Vidal Santiago - a man who distrusted the CIA, and from what I have read - the feeling was mutual. So for all intents and purposes, Vidal is running his own shop, independent of membership in any of the big name anti-Castro organizations, for example. So who is running him? Is it possible that the relationships forged between groups like Alpha 66 and not the CIA - who failed to come through time and again - but Army Intel had a relationship with Vidal? If he mistrusted the CIA, why maintain relations with Colonel Bishop and furiously inform him of Kennedy's highly secretive movements that appeared to indicate detente? That's a tough nut to crack - but it is odd that Vidal would have been engaged in a CIA run program. It almost seems more likely that another group made use of certain CIA assets to create the 'Rogue' concept while remaining behind the scenes, or it was some kind of joint overall op. Plus Dulles and Cabell had motive. Using certain of their own resources [that had been instrumental in Guatemala and the BOP fiasco] seems suspect? Who gave Bill Harvey the go-ahead for the Cuba mission - he said the military wanted it done? But all-in-all, despite the best laid plans, it seems to me that there were screw-ups all over the place - which is why there are so many traces of the botch jobs encountered in the cover-up and lone nut story. I think that more digging is going to lead to MI having been more engaged that previously thought. Nagell wasn't CIA, for example.

- lee

[Lee Forman]

Lee,

My only question on the van or other vehicle parked just beyond the overpass on the south side is the distance from the limo. The limo was not in the closest lane. I believe it was in the far north lane, to enter the ramp to the freeway. Though I know nothing about explosives, I wonder if any vehicle with a bomb in that area was close enough to the passing limo to ensure death to its occupants. I assume it would have to be one hell of a bomb, killing everyone within many yards of the vehicle.

As for the potential patsies for the bomb, the tramps in a train car loaded with explosives (and assuming that the operation was to be blamed on Castro), of all the usual tramp suspects (Holt, Hunt, Crisman, Sturgis, Harrelson, Frenchy, Abrams, Gedney, and Doyle), what possible connection did any of them have to Cuba?

Ron

I asked the same question and found out that it is entirely possible - it would be interesting to compare notes with the device discovered along the Miami motorcade route. Anyway - I also don't know much about explosives, however it was demonstrated to me that it was entirely feasible from that distance - plus for all I know there was some form of diversionary tactic planned to push the lincoln closer to the target - many questions - but the van still seems most suspect - and the cars parked along Commerce? Seem even further away and too close to the underpass. That cop standing there would have obliterated. I don't know on the tramps - if you take the line that Holt was on the level - even consider the possibility that there were more than one set of tramps - I never got an answer as to whom this gentleman may have been for example...

http://jfkmurderphotos.bravehost.com/beers21.jpg

it still leaves that question - however, I don't know that there wasn't more than one game being played. Certainly with Oswald you had the FPCC, Cuba, and the Soviet Union to play with. As this was a rightwing game, there could have been other targets aside from regaining Cuba. There may have been material in their backgrounds that would have led in some Cuban direction. For example, The Man on the Grassy Knoll has a very possible Harrelson running around with Oswald - as reported by a Reverend and his wife - names escape me. Bottomline, good question - I don't know the answer. I do believe Oswald's arrest was not according the plan [imagine the sweating that went on after that]. And I have heard of at least one op that was done in the 70s in which something similar to a 'Lone Nut' scenario was offered as a potential alternative [the individual leading the op in question suddenly realized what ocurred in DP]. Leaving behind corpses is probably the preferred method.

- lee

[Lee Forman]

Further - to continue on this bit - it would appear that the operation also made use of doubles - precedent with the doubling of Oswald -- Haven't been able to work that all out yet - but lookalikes may have been used for the purpose of both obfuscation as well as the protection of the identity of the operatives. Ever hear anything like that?

- lee

The use of doubles for the purposes you cite is an absolutely key insight into the identities of the prime facilitators not only of the JFK assassination, but of other deep political operations across a broad swath of history.

From Richard Popkin through John Armstrong and beyond, the doppelganger at play in the JFK conspiracy is well documented.

If the operation to kill the president is best understood as drama (or, if you prefer, a dramatic construct; Evica's original theory, one that I wholeheartedly endorse), then you would be well advised to find a copy of The Double in Literature, by Robert Rogers (Wayne State University Press, 1970).

Rogers, on "the functions of doubling," offers this:

"If a character is not what he seems to be in the sense of being a fragment rather than a whole, it may be asked if he is real ... [R]econsider [Angus] Fletcher's assumptions when he states that the allegorical hero 'is not so much a real person' as he is a 'generator' of secondary personalities, partial aspects of himself." (emphasis in original)

Later, discussing what he terms "doubling for dramatic conflict," Rogers notes, "In essence, doubling of characters does not simply make the representation of intrapsychic conflict possible; it allows for the potential development of that conflict in the most dramatic way possible ... a dynamic opposition of psychic forces permeates practically all modes of literature. Shaw's dictum, 'No conflict, no drama,' goes right to the heart of the matter for the genre he was most interested in. It is impossible to think of any play deserving the name drama which is without sharp conflict. What obviously holds for the drama might not seem to obtain for so-called nondramatic literature; but to say so is to mistake conventional label for literal fact."

I would argue that the primary function of the double in an intelligence operation such as the JFK assassination is to create cognitive dissonance -- conflict -- in the minds of investigators and witnesses.

To the degree that John Armstrong buttresses the "two Oswalds" perceptions, he simultaneously exposes and abets the agenda of the author(s) of the LHO doppelganger play-within-a-play.

Two Oswalds. Two Zapruder Films. Two sets of autopsy notes. Two sets of X-rays. Two sets of autopsy photos.

Pre-Oswald? Take a look at the case of Gordon Lonsdale.

As far as JFK is concerned: Who had the literary background to create such a drama? Who were the writers among the suspects?

Charles Drago

Interesting Charles - two bullets also, two brains, etc. Still find it odd that Howard Brennan gets to meet a Kennedy double that no one else seems to have ever heard of... Also to be considered are possible reinactments - like the bogus radio announcement made by Sam Pate for example. I guess where I was going was on possibly having some lookalikes present in DP. It might explain the tramps - might not. Might explain DCM and TUM. Or the interesting characters on the corner of Main st.

If I follow what Hargraves is saying, then Vidal is not playing the role of overall operational commander, or shooter, etc - in which case he is not 'DCM,' for example. His team has the failsafe, and he is in charge of observing and making the decision as to whether or not the final measure is required. I will need to re-read the interview, but it sounds as if Vidal may be blackdog man.

- lee

[Charles Drago]

Lee,

With the thought that this "doubling" notion is worthy of a dedicated discussion, I've taken the liberty of opening a new thread titled "Two for the Price of One." Thanks again for inspiring those thoughts.

Lets not confuse operational redundancy with the sort of doppelganger effect to which I'm referring.

Most of us agree, I'd say, that once the shooting started, JFK would not be allowed to live. So my guess -- and it's only that -- is that any sort of deep fallback car bombing would have been initiated had spotters confirmed that the president was either unharmed or non-fatally wounded.

Had the triangulated DP shooting been aborted -- which is to say, if there were no attempt to be noticed -- then I don't believe that explosives would have come into play.

Why? First, because I don't believe that a Dallas op was either the first or the last to be planned. If the abort signal had been issued, there likely were other scenarios in place.

Second, because less is more. An elegantly simple matter of a bullet to the brain is neater, more controllable, and more malleable than bombs bursting in air.

However ... I'll second-guess myself by allowing for the fact that, due to circumstances we cannot yet know, Dallas did indeed represent a last chance opportunity.

But at this point we're speculating wildly.

To reiterate my educated guess: In terms of the actual hit, simple trumped complex.

FWIW,

Charles

[Mark Stapleton]

Lee,

My only question on the van or other vehicle parked just beyond the overpass on the south side is the distance from the limo. The limo was not in the closest lane. I believe it was in the far north lane, to enter the ramp to the freeway. Though I know nothing about explosives, I wonder if any vehicle with a bomb in that area was close enough to the passing limo to ensure death to its occupants. I assume it would have to be one hell of a bomb, killing everyone within many yards of the vehicle.

As for the potential patsies for the bomb, the tramps in a train car loaded with explosives (and assuming that the operation was to be blamed on Castro), of all the usual tramp suspects (Holt, Hunt, Crisman, Sturgis, Harrelson, Frenchy, Abrams, Gedney, and Doyle), what possible connection did any of them have to Cuba?

Ron

I asked the same question and found out that it is entirely possible - it would be interesting to compare notes with the device discovered along the Miami motorcade route. Anyway - I also don't know much about explosives, however it was demonstrated to me that it was entirely feasible from that distance - plus for all I know there was some form of diversionary tactic planned to push the lincoln closer to the target - many questions - but the van still seems most suspect - and the cars parked along Commerce? Seem even further away and too close to the underpass. That cop standing there would have obliterated. I don't know on the tramps - if you take the line that Holt was on the level - even consider the possibility that there were more than one set of tramps - I never got an answer as to whom this gentleman may have been for example...

http://jfkmurderphotos.bravehost.com/beers21.jpg

it still leaves that question - however, I don't know that there wasn't more than one game being played. Certainly with Oswald you had the FPCC, Cuba, and the Soviet Union to play with. As this was a rightwing game, there could have been other targets aside from regaining Cuba. There may have been material in their backgrounds that would have led in some Cuban direction. For example, The Man on the Grassy Knoll has a very possible Harrelson running around with Oswald - as reported by a Reverend and his wife - names escape me. Bottomline, good question - I don't know the answer. I do believe Oswald's arrest was not according the plan [imagine the sweating that went on after that]. And I have heard of at least one op that was done in the 70s in which something similar to a 'Lone Nut' scenario was offered as a potential alternative [the individual leading the op in question suddenly realized what ocurred in DP]. Leaving behind corpses is probably the preferred method.

- lee

Lee,

What was this device discovered along the Miami motorcade route which you referred to?

[Duke Lane]

Rough example of the problem attached.

Cell 2057

Case Officer X would receive phone call - assemble team. Phone call might have come from a number of locations. This is need-to-know info, and would not be shared with the team members. It is not known who would have been making the call. X is surprised to learn that the mission is Dallas - he was anticipating Chicago, which apparently was blown thanks to SA Bolden. Y's cell consists of 4 invididuals, including a 5th - a pilot. One is believed to have simply been an 'Observer' which may have also been a signal job. The target is not known - very little information is shared aside from the operational assignment at hand. This is done to protect the operation, as well as the operative. X's case officer / handler would be on the ground and visible to him. It would have been someone that he trusted. This case officer would be present to demonstrate that the op hadn't been 'shopped.' If Y had recognized other operatives on the ground during assignment, it would be critical to ignore this to maintain the compartmented state, especially after-the-fact - otherwise one could become at risk for future assignments. Additionally, disclosing information concerning a role played within an op could jeopardize the other participants in the cell.

Lee,

While I don't necessarily disagree with your analysis, one issue that needs clarification is how anyone who is essentially in town only on the spur of the moment with no real idea of what they're going to be doing until they're called upon to do it was able to manage to get into the TSBD (and other buildings) unnoticed by anyone, ensure that there would be vacant offices and/or warehouse space to operate in, and a reasonably reliable means of exit - with or without arms, and if the latter, a place to store them - all effectively on their own with no advance planning or local assistance.

In the case of TSBD - the only building we have any concrete knowledge of (has anyone ever even seen a floorplan of the DalTex building, or a list of people working there?) - 73 people swore that they hadn't seen anyone who was a stranger to them prior to the shooting, other than an elderly man who had to "go." Surely all 73 people weren't in on the plot and - to quote a book title! - someone would have talked, possibly let something slip inadvertantly even if they'd been threatened ... tho' the one question they perhaps hadn't been asked is if there had been anyone working at TSBD in November who no longer worked there in March when they were interviewed.

I think most people would agree that Marrion Baker got to the 7th floor within two to two-and-a-half minutes of the shooting (a pretty damned liberal estimate), so whoever might have been upstairs there would have had to get past him without arousing suspicion, or for that matter, even being seen by him ... and - in theory at least - by Bonnie Ray Williams and Jack Daugherty both before and after the shooting without being seen or heard by them (in point of fact, they didn't ... but that's a different part of the story). Were they merely lucky, or did they manage to get downstairs and outside even faster than has ever been attributed to Lee Oswald, before Baker even hit the stairs?

By the count of the org chart you posted, that's quite a handful of men to sneak by everyone and out the door, even if there were "only" shooters and spotters. How was it done?

(There may be an answer, but I'm curious about yours.)

[Ron Ecker]

What was this device discovered along the Miami motorcade route which you referred to?

I believe the reference is to a stick of dynamite found in the Orange Bowl parking lot when JFK met the Cuban exiles there in December 1962.

http://www.larry-hancock.com/documents/cha...ibit4-13p01.jpg

[Mark Stapleton]

What was this device discovered along the Miami motorcade route which you referred to?

I believe the reference is to a stick of dynamite found in the Orange Bowl parking lot when JFK met the Cuban exiles there in December 1962.

http://www.larry-hancock.com/documents/cha...ibit4-13p01.jpg

Thanks Ron. Interesting.

[Lee Forman]

Thank you, Lee. I too have the book.

The last report I had on Culligan's whereabouts: Florida.

But this was a few years back; he's quite old now, and if I remember correctly his wife was ill.

I do know that Harold Weisberg had a large Culligan file.

Thanks again,

Charles

FYI, Zabasearch had an interesting listing for a Roland B Culligan in Palm Beach, Florida. It looked pretty solid, having a 2006 reference point associated with it. I called to find that the number has been disconnected, and the operator was unable to find any listing for Roland Culligan anywhere in the area.

Some questions I wanted to ask of Mr. Culligan:

a. If he disposed of associated JFK assassination individuals reporting to the following individuals advertised in his hit list, since these Cubans were clearly NOT dead in February of 1965.

Manuel Artime Buesa [Cuban], Guatemala, Feb, 1965

Jose Mira Cardona [Cuban], Guatemala, Feb, 1965

Manuel A DeVarona [Cuban] Guatemala, Feb, 1965

b. Since that appears to have been a bluff for those 'in the know,' used as a lever to get back what was taken from him, whether or not it was Guatemala or actually Nicaragua, and

c. If I were to rattle off a list of names, whether or not he'd be willing to make some sort of response to confirm or deny.

I would also be interested in knowing if the name of the Dallas cop [Charlie Sansone] and the Texas State Police Officer [Marvin Blunt], whose names were both omitted from the Warren Report, meant anything to him.

Looks like I will have to continue to wonder unless someone has a lead on Culligan's whereabouts.

- lee

[Myra Bronstein]

...If it is Hargraves on the steps with a remote control transmitter - he would need a clear line-of-sight to avoid possible interference. I believe that the position on the stairs would have given him that.

...

- lee

I'm confused. I think Hargraves is Umbrella Man.

[Lee Forman]

Rough example of the problem attached.

Cell 2057

Case Officer X would receive phone call - assemble team. Phone call might have come from a number of locations. This is need-to-know info, and would not be shared with the team members. It is not known who would have been making the call. X is surprised to learn that the mission is Dallas - he was anticipating Chicago, which apparently was blown thanks to SA Bolden. Y's cell consists of 4 invididuals, including a 5th - a pilot. One is believed to have simply been an 'Observer' which may have also been a signal job. The target is not known - very little information is shared aside from the operational assignment at hand. This is done to protect the operation, as well as the operative. X's case officer / handler would be on the ground and visible to him. It would have been someone that he trusted. This case officer would be present to demonstrate that the op hadn't been 'shopped.' If Y had recognized other operatives on the ground during assignment, it would be critical to ignore this to maintain the compartmented state, especially after-the-fact - otherwise one could become at risk for future assignments. Additionally, disclosing information concerning a role played within an op could jeopardize the other participants in the cell.

Lee,

While I don't necessarily disagree with your analysis, one issue that needs clarification is how anyone who is essentially in town only on the spur of the moment with no real idea of what they're going to be doing until they're called upon to do it was able to manage to get into the TSBD (and other buildings) unnoticed by anyone, ensure that there would be vacant offices and/or warehouse space to operate in, and a reasonably reliable means of exit - with or without arms, and if the latter, a place to store them - all effectively on their own with no advance planning or local assistance.

In the case of TSBD - the only building we have any concrete knowledge of (has anyone ever even seen a floorplan of the DalTex building, or a list of people working there?) - 73 people swore that they hadn't seen anyone who was a stranger to them prior to the shooting, other than an elderly man who had to "go." Surely all 73 people weren't in on the plot and - to quote a book title! - someone would have talked, possibly let something slip inadvertantly even if they'd been threatened ... tho' the one question they perhaps hadn't been asked is if there had been anyone working at TSBD in November who no longer worked there in March when they were interviewed.

I think most people would agree that Marrion Baker got to the 7th floor within two to two-and-a-half minutes of the shooting (a pretty damned liberal estimate), so whoever might have been upstairs there would have had to get past him without arousing suspicion, or for that matter, even being seen by him ... and - in theory at least - by Bonnie Ray Williams and Jack Daugherty both before and after the shooting without being seen or heard by them (in point of fact, they didn't ... but that's a different part of the story). Were they merely lucky, or did they manage to get downstairs and outside even faster than has ever been attributed to Lee Oswald, before Baker even hit the stairs?

By the count of the org chart you posted, that's quite a handful of men to sneak by everyone and out the door, even if there were "only" shooters and spotters. How was it done?

(There may be an answer, but I'm curious about yours.)

I want to apologize for overlooking your post Duke. All very good points - and I do not have any definitive answers. However, I am always good for theorizing. On the basis of Lee Vida Whatley's account, as per her son, I believe it is a safe bet that weapons were planted in position early that morning. This removes the risk of having been seen like the individual walking on Ackard towards Commerce - that one remains a mystery in itself. Long packages taken out of the trunk of the car wrapped in brown paper - sound familiar?

In terms of the ops, hierarchy applies in terms of the information control. And in the case of Hargraves, Hancock's book makes a good case for Hargraves having been privy to a lot of information - just not the location or a lot of other details. I take it from the references Larry cited to make the assumption that there would have been some details already in place with respect to tasks. In terms of the layout of the Plaza, the area would have been surveyed - but in all likelihood not by parties attending the operation that day. I still am curious about the account of the Rambler with the license plate registered to public works and the men surveying the plaza in the days before - can never find that reference. Anyway, there would have had to have been local presence and support, which could also be quantified by some of the 'unsavory' characters that rolled into Dallas in the months preceding November, taking on bogus jobs - like Jack Lawrence, for one, Igor Vaganov for another. The Pepsi convention would provide a nice cover also.

Also, in terms of the quote I have over-used from Reverend Mack - Dallas would have played a large role, and those that didn't go along with it died. A nice case can be made there if you were to assemble all of the various witnesses and the threats that they received, including what Lee Whatley's son told me about his brother-in-law, Billy Lovelady, as one example. With Civello's name having been omitted from the Warren Report, Hal Rubenstein's having been Danny Arce's former employee, dirty cops, the name Stuart Martin and a bank in Oak Cliff, the safe houses, 3126 Harlandale, etc. etc. - lot of local power on the ground prior to the ops. And a lot of cleaning activity - like the attempt on Reynolds. In the case of Worrell, I am inclined to take his word on a man running out the back door of the book depository over the 2 men that essentially called him a xxxx. I'd lean toward their having been positioned in that location, and liars themselves.

Hemming had it that the team in the TSBD made use of the elevator shaft and slid down. Sounds far-fetched, but perhaps it is not. Certainly there is too much focus on the position of the elevators in the Warren Report. I never tried to work it all out, but I am curious - especially since the men on the 5th floor have so many inconsistencies in their accounts and differences between their affidavits, FBI interviews and the Warren testimony. Perhaps the only one unable to slide down was Mac Wallace, whom Loy Factor places there - and with the other possible evidence, sounds like a likely.

As to the employees - well, most of them were out of the building, and someplace in the front to watch the motorcade. I don't have much of an explanation there and it's a good point.

- lee