Jump to content


Spartacus

CIA letter to David W. Belin


  • Please log in to reply
11 replies to this topic

#1 Jim Root

Jim Root

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 937 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California

Posted 21 September 2007 - 12:54 AM

Fom VB's book Page 941

"The CIA, for one, thought the Harker article could have had a connection to Oswald's act of murder. In response to an April 15, 1975, inquiry from David W. Belin, the former Warren Commission assistant counsel who was then the executive director of the Rockefeller Commission on CIA activities, the agency wrote on May 30, 1975, that since Oswald was 'an avid newspaper reader-which we know from the testimony of Marina Oswald and others-' the 'assumption' was that Oswald had 'read the Castro warning and threat' in the New Orleans [i]Times-Picayune.[i] And that if he indeed did, it 'must be considered of great significance in light of the pathological evolution of Oswald's passive aggressive behavior after his attempt to kill (Castro hater) General (Edwin) Walker early in April 1963 and his identification with Fidel Castro and the Cuban revolution, which is directly traceable as far back as his Marine Corps service in El Toro, California."

1st: Does anyone have a copy of this letter?

2nd: If I read this correctly it is suggesting that the CIA could have foreseen the "pathological evolution of Oswald's passive aggressive behavior after his attempt to kill General Walker early in April 1963..." IF they had know that it was Oswald that had attempted to kill General Walker.

Fact, the FBI monitoring of Oswald's movements began shortly after the Walker assassination attempt. The FBI monitoring began after an event in Dallas (passing out Pro Castro materials) that Agent Hosty did not believe ever occured. Was the monitoring of Oswald's movements a result of passing out pro Castro materials (that may or may not have happened) or a result of someone guessing that it was Oswald that had attempted to assassinate Walker. The timing is impecable once again or just another coincidence like so many others that I have pointed out.

If, as I have suggested, the "BIG FISH" would have known that Oswald had a motive for shooting at Walker (or if, as Walker himself would later suggest, if Oswald had been arrested and released after that failed asssassination attempt), when would the CIA have been able to predict that Oswald would become a killer? It seems that this Belin letter would suggest that a profile could have been developed on Oswald right after the failed assassination attempt on Walker.

If this is true there are two important points that would have had to have been covered up by the Warren Commission.

1. Any relationship or meeting that could have taken place between Walker and Oswald.

2. The fact that the motorcade would be directed past where Oswald was working after it was known where this potential assassin was working.

We can prove that the Warren Commission failed to identify the passenger lists for the planes (Oswald had to take a minimum of two different planes) that Oswald boarded on his flight from London to Helsinki. We can also prove that Ambassador Hickerson sent a note that provided the direction necessary to gain entry into the Soviet Union via the Soviet Embassy in Helsinki one day before Oswald's arrival in that country. We can prove that Oswald followed these direction either by coincidence or by plan. We also know that Walker was also traveling and can show that they could have been on the same plane (thank you Antti).

As I have been suggesting for years it is possible that Walker provided Ambassador Hickerson's information to Oswald.

If Walker did provide this information....Oswald had motive to shoot at Walker. Only the "BIG FISH" (who had assigned Walker to pass info to Oswald) would know that Oswald would have had a motive to shoot at Walker! The cover for following Oswald would be his Pro Castro activites....the real motive may have been Kennedy's trip to Dallas on November 22, 1963 (Letters exchanged by John J. McCloy and Edwin Walker in June of 1963).

This Belin letter suggests that the "BIG FISH" may also have been able to know that Oswald was capable of killing the President if he was given the opportunity!

To me this is BIG!

Thoughts

Jim Root

#2 Bernice Moore

Bernice Moore

    Super Member

  • JFK
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3,957 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Canada

Posted 21 September 2007 - 03:24 AM

Hi Jim:

There may be something of value to add to your studies, found within the information below..


ITEMS IN THE LEE HARVEY OSWALD FILE REGARDING ALLEGATIONS..

...Harker....

http://www.maryferre...bsPageId=667977

There is an extensive source of files...these are just from two..

I typed in Rockefeller + Belin + letter 75 + Harker article

Oswald's passive aggressive makeup......etc

http://www.maryferre...mp;relPageId=10



B.....

Edited by Bernice Moore, 21 September 2007 - 03:48 AM.


#3 Jim Root

Jim Root

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 937 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California

Posted 22 September 2007 - 05:35 AM

Bernice

Thank you for the reply. I was able to find the info and it is useful. Interesting to reread the Richard Helms testimony in lite of the John Newman/Jefferson Morley informtion. At best he seems to stonewall whild at least pretending to answer the question that were asked. Does not volunteer much info though or shed lite on the reasons why he/they/CIA wers so interested in Oswald after the assassination attempt on Walker had occured.

The other piece of information that I found was that Helms tells us that it was the "counter intelligence" department that was handling the Warren Commissions inquiries about Oswald. I had not recalled seeing that before. For me this information sheds additional light on Epstein's interview with James Jesus Angelton and the Orchid Man article that resulted from those interviews. More importantly, I have gathered enough information on Edwin Anderson Walker to believe that his military career was centered around his counter intelligence activities.

But I digress from this thread.

Once again, according to this CIA assessment we make the suggestion that "IF" someone within US Intelligence had known that Oswald had shot at Walker then that someone could have drawn the conclusion that Oswald would be willing to shoot at the President. I do not suggest that this is proof of anything. But it does support my thesis that IF Oswald had been used by US Intelligence and his trip to Russia was an intelligence operation (with or without Oswald's knowledge of it being a US Intelligence operation, "Orchid Man") then someone may have already assessed Oswald mental state by 1959. Upon his return to the US only those that had handled his entry into the Soviet Union would know the details of the operation that had "used" Oswald and only those few people would be in a position to assess Oswald's mental state in the summer of 1963.

I know that most people do not want to accept a conspiracy that includes Oswald as a shooter because so much work has been done in an attempt to prove conspiracy by proving that there was more than one shooter. While much speculation has led to many seemingly plausible explanations the sheer number of the plausible shooters and the sheer number of people needed to execute the various plans that are suggested becomes so ponderous as to defy the possibility that no one has been able to positively prove, to the majority of people, that any one of these conspiracy theories are the ONE correct and proveable ONE.

For myself I have been able to piece together a consistant, albeit convoluted theory that began by following a trail of Oswald attempting to assassinate General Walker. It can identify the potential conspirators that had the ability to direct the motorcade, who would have had access to information about Oswald's place of employment, who had a motive and who had the ability to direct the investigation that was done by the Warren Commission. This group of conspirators would have worked together for years and understood the inner workings of the highest levels of US Intelligence, What is even more important this small group would have known how to guarentee that Oswald would not survive or be able to tell his story to the American people, by assuring that he himself would put into motion the wheels of US Intelligence to assassinate him after he (Oswald) attempted to make a phone call and mentioned the name John Hurt.

The story is not simple. It has many many pieces that link together but it climaxes in the death of Kennedy and the primary potential conspirator, John J. McCloy getting exactly what he wanted after the death of President John F. Kennedy.

McCloy was the winner in his dispute with Kennedy even if you do not wish to accept the possibility of a conspiracy that involves McCloy and uses Oswald as a shooter!!

Jim Root

#4 Tim Gratz

Tim Gratz

    Super Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 6,939 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 23 September 2007 - 04:07 AM

Jim wrote:

The fact that the motorcade would be directed past where Oswald was working after it was known where this potential assassin was working.

Oh, come on, Jim. You know, I assume, that the parade route was dictated by the choice of the place for the JFK luncheon at the Trade Mart.

Or are you saying the luncheon venue was chosen to ensure the motorcade went by the TSBD?

#5 Jim Root

Jim Root

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 937 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California

Posted 23 September 2007 - 03:52 PM

Tim wrote:

"Oh, come on, Jim. You know, I assume, that the parade route was dictated by the choice of the place for the JFK luncheon at the Trade Mart."

I assure you Tim that I would not make such a statement without first consulting a map of the downtown Dallas area. Simply put Dealey Plaza is South of Love Field. The Trade Mart is North of Dealey Plaza. The motorcade went all the way out past the School Book Depository building then was to backtrack to the Trade Mart. There were several places where the motorcade could have turned right and still arrived at its destination without passing the place where Oswald worked and without passing under the triple underpass (which seems to have been a concern of the Secrete Service at some stage of the planning).

In other words the parade route was not "dictated by the choice of the place for the JFK luncheon at the Trade Mart." But the route was decided by persons in Washington D.C. and not by those on the scene in Dallas.

On the other hand it is a FACT that the parade route was decided upon after Agent Hosty sent his note of November 4th that indicated where Oswald was working. It is a FACT that at least two of Hosty's previous notes were directed to the Office of Richard Helms. It is a FACT that of Hosty's three known notes about Oswald only the one that detailed where Oswald was working was not given a Commission Exhibit Number. It is a FACT that McCloy was involved in questioning Hosty and at minimum failed to give this crucial note an exhibit number (according to VB attempting to conceal information that could prove guilt can be used to prove conciousness of a crime). It is a fact that Richard Helms was the laison to the Warren Commission and never voluteered the information that he had about Oswald.

At what point to we begin to take a serious look at factual infromation (that was left out of the Warren Commission Report) that can point to the negligence at best of those that investigated the death of the President for the American people?

What do you think it might have ben that McCloy and Helms were witholding from the American people Tim? Could it possibly have been that the assassination could have been avoided if information about Oswald would have been shared with the SS? While on the suface this would appear to be true but if there was prior knowledge that Oswald was the person who had attempted to take the life of General Walker then President Kennedy may have been directed into the path of bullets falling from the sixth flool of the SBD by those that had knowledge of Oswald's willingness to kill for his beliefs.

Oswald didn't have to be hired. Oswald only had to be given the opportunity. By planning for the motorcade to go beyound where it needed to go to get to the Trade Mart, the planners of the parade route provided the opportunity for Oswald to kill (or be blamed for killing) the President. But it is a fact that the parade route did not have to pass the SBD Builing to get to the Trade Mart!

And JFK did die as a result of the wounds he received at that location!

Jim Root

#6 Duke Lane

Duke Lane

    Super Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,583 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:USA
  • Interests:Universally loved and admired for his keen wit, sharp intellect, loathsome egoism, and awe-inspiring self-delusion, Lane studies the JFK assassination from afar, offers few opinions, and generally keeps to himself.

Posted 24 September 2007 - 01:22 AM

... Oswald didn't have to be hired. Oswald only had to be given the opportunity. By planning for the motorcade to go beyound where it needed to go to get to the Trade Mart, the planners of the parade route provided the opportunity for Oswald to kill (or be blamed for killing) the President. But it is a fact that the parade route did not have to pass the SBD Builing to get to the Trade Mart!

There is an interesting document put forth by DPD chiefs about the issues considered and decisions arrived at regarding the motorcade route, CD81.1, which you can find on the Mary Ferrell Foundation site. For example, according to the chiefs, it was USSS advance man SA Winston Lawson who made the determination that four motorcycles around JFK's limo was more than enough (DPD had suggested eight).

Perhaps more interesting (and damning?) is that, according to the testimony of at least one TSBD employee, it was the usual practice of the TSBD company to lay off employees by October, when LHO was hired. The comment that strikes me is that they had the guys laying flooring so that they wouldn't have to lay people off, a nice gesture on the part of the company.

Yet in the midst of this normally-impending layoff, they hire an additional person who needs to be trained what to do, etc., so that the experienced men can bang nails.

Sometime I'll have to detail the movements and activities of Roy Truly and Jack Dougherty during the minutes following the shooting that might even make a few people wonder what part they might've played in the killing!

In that light, it is a question of whether LHO was hired specifically to be in that area or in that particular building. If that's so, it would show a curious coordination between people in Washington and others in Dallas.

#7 Tim Gratz

Tim Gratz

    Super Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 6,939 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 24 September 2007 - 10:21 AM

From the WC re the motorcade route:

On November 8, when Lawson was briefed on the itinerary for the trip to Dallas, he was told that 45 minutes had been allotted for a motorcade procession from Love Field to the luncheon site. Lawson was not specifically instructed to select the parade route, but he understood that this was one of his functions. Even before the Trade Mart had been definitely selected, Lawson and Sorrels began to consider the best motorcade route from Love Field to the Trade Mart. On November 14, Lawson and Sorrels attended a meeting at Love Field and on their return to Dallas drove over the route which Sorrels believed best suited for the proposed motorcade. This route, eventually selected for the motorcade from the airport to the Trade Mart, measured 10 miles and could be driven easily within the allotted 45 minutes. From Love Field the route passed through a portion of suburban Dallas, through the downtown area along Main Street and then to the Trade Mart via Stemmons Freeway. For the President's return to Love Field following the luncheon, the agents selected the most direct route, which was approximately 4 miles.
After the selection of the Trade Mart as the luncheon site, Lawson and Sorrels met with Dallas Chief of Police Jesse E. Curry, Assistant Chief Charles Batchelor, Deputy Chief N. T. Fisher, and several other command officers to discuss details of the motorcade and possible routes. The route was further reviewed by Lawson and Sorrels with Assistant Chief Batchelor and members of the local host committee on November 15. The police officials agreed that the route recommended by Sorrels was the proper one and did not express a belief that any other route might be better. On November 18, Sorrels and Lawson drove over the selected route with Batchelor and other police officers, verifying that it could be traversed within 45 minutes. Representatives of the local host committee and the White House staff were advised by the Secret Service of the actual route on the afternoon of November 18.

The route impressed the agents as a natural and desirable one. Sorrels, who had participated in Presidential protection assignments in Dallas since a visit by President Franklin D. Roosevelt in 1936, testified that the traditional parade route in Dallas was along Main Street, since the tall buildings along the street gave more people an opportunity to participate. The route chosen from the airport to Main Street was the normal one, except where Harwood Street was selected as the means of access to Main Street in preference to a short stretch of the Central Expressway, which presented a minor safety hazard and could not accommodate spectators as conveniently as Harwood Street. According to Lawson, the chosen route seemed to be the best.

It afforded us wide streets most of the way, because of the buses that were in the motorcade. It afforded us a chance to have alternative routes if something happened on the motorcade route. It was the type of suburban area a good part of the way where the crowds would be able to be controlled for a great distance, and we figured that the largest crowds would be downtown, which they were, and that the wide streets that we would use downtown would be of sufficient width to keep the public out of our way.

Elm Street, parallel to Main Street and one block north, was not used for the main portion of the downtown part of the motorcade because Main Street offered better vantage points for spectators.
To reach the Trade Mart from Main Street the agents decided to use the Stemmons Freeway (Route No. 77), the most direct route. The only practical way for westbound traffic on Main Street to reach the northbound lanes of the Stemmons Freeway is via Elm Street, which Route No. 77 traffic is instructed to follow in this part of the city. (See Commission Exhibit No. 2113.) Elm Street was to be reached from Main by turning right at Houston, going one block north and then turning left onto Elm. On this last portion of the journey, only 5 minutes from the Trade Mart, the President's motorcade would pass the Texas School Book Depository Building on the northwest corner of Houston and Elm Streets. The building overlooks Dealey Plaza, an attractively landscaped triangle of 3 acres. (See Commission Exhibit No. 876.) From Houston Street, which forms the base of the triangle, three streetsCommerce, Main, and Elmtrisect the plaza, converging at the apex of the triangle to form a triple underpass beneath a multiple railroad bridge almost 500 feet from Houston Street. Elm Street, the northernmost of the three, after intersecting Houston curves in a southwesterly arc through the underpass and leads into an access road, which branches off to the right and is used by traffic going to the Stemmons Freeway and the Dallas-Fort Worth Turnpike. (See Commission Exhibits Nos. 2113-2116.)

The Elm Street approach to the Stemmons Freeway is necessary in order to avoid the traffic hazards which would otherwise exist if right turns were permitted from both Main and Elm into the freeway. To create this traffic pattern, a concrete barrier between Main and Elm Streets presents an obstacle to a right turn from Main across Elm to the access road to Stemmons Freeway and the Dallas-Fort Worth Turnpike. This concrete barrier extends far enough beyond the access road to make it impracticable for vehicles to turn right from Main directly to the access road. A sign located on this barrier instructs Main Street traffic not to make any turns. (See Commission Exhibits Nos. 2114-2116.) In conformity with these arrangements, traffic proceeding west on Main is directed to turn right at Houston in order to reach the Dallas-Fort Worth Turnpike, which has the same access road from Elm Street as does the Stemmons Freeway. (See Commission Exhibit No. 2967)

The planning for the motorcade also included advance preparations for security arrangements along the route. Sorrels and Lawson reviewed the route in cooperation with Assistant Chief Batchelor and other Dallas police officials who took notes on the requirements for controlling the crowds and traffic, watching the overpasses, and providing motorcycle escort. To control traffic, arrangements were made for the deployment of foot patrolmen and motorcycle police at various positions along the route. Police were assigned to each overpass on the route and instructed to keep them clear of unauthorized persons. No arrangements were made for police or building custodians to inspect buildings along the motorcade route since the Secret Service did not normally request or make such a check? Under standard procedures, the responsibility for watching the windows of buildings was shared by local police stationed along the route and Secret Service agents riding in the motorcade.

As the date for the President's visit approached, the two Dallas newspapers carried several reports of his motorcade route. The selection of the Trade Mart as the possible site for the luncheon first appeared in the Dallas Times-Herald on November 15, 1963. The following day, the newspaper reported that the Presidential party "apparently will loop through the downtown area, probably on Main Street, en route from Dallas Love Field" on its way to the Trade Mart. On November 19, the Times-Herald afternoon paper detailed the precise route:

From the airport, the President's party will proceed to Mockingbird Lane to Lemmon and then to Turtle Creek, turning south to Cedar Springs. The motorcade will then pass through downtown on Harwood and then west on Main, turning back to Elm at Houston and then out Stemmons Freeway to the Trade Mart.

Also on November 19, the Morning News reported that the President's motorcade would travel from Love Field along specified streets, then "Harwood to Main, Main to Houston, Houston to Elm, Elm under the Triple Underpass to Stemmons Freeway, and on to the Trade Mart." On November 20 a front-page story reported that the streets on which the Presidential motorcade would travel included "Main and Stemmons Freeway." On the morning of the President's arrival, the Morning News noted that the motorcade would travel through downtown Dallas onto the Stemmons Freeway, and reported that "the motorcade will move slowly so that crowds can 'get a good view' of President Kennedy and his wife."

#8 Jim Root

Jim Root

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 937 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California

Posted 27 September 2007 - 11:50 PM

Tim

Thank you for the WC information. It seems that you agree that the route was decided after the Nov. 4th Hosty note was sent.

Allow me to add some additional information taken from Warren Commission Exhibit Number 2113:

First: Was information available to potential conspirators that could have influenced the route planning?

With the work of Jefferson Morley and John Newman we have learned that at least two notes sent by FBI agent James Hosty about the doings of Lee Harvey Oswald in the months preceding the assassination was forwarded to the office of Richard Helms within days after being sent. Although Hosty’s November 4th note, which provided the crucial information about where Oswald was working (TSBD) was never given a Warren Commission Exhibit number we can logically assume that this Hosty note made it to the same office as his previous note (one which Morley and Newman were able to track because it has never been revealed to the public).

The planning for the motorcade was not completed until days after the Hosty note was sent and possibly not until the information about where Oswald was working was in the hands of Richard Helms, the CIA and perhaps others who would have access to this information for whatever potential reasons that we may speculate upon.

Second: Looking at a map of the motorcade approach (Commission Exhibit No. 2113) I noticed several interesting facts:

1. The turn from Houston to Elm is approx. 135 degrees rather than the normal 90 degree left hand turn (difficult turn for the buses in the motorcade).

2. If one wished to enter the Stemmons Freeway from Commerce St. (from either direction) one would be routed to Elm via Lamar not Houston (four blocks before Houston).

3. Lamar offers access to the Stemmons Freeway via Continental Ave. without the security risk of the Triple Underpass (but this route was not taken and a 135 degree turn in front of the SBDm where Oswald worked was choosen instead).

4. According to Commission Exhibit No. 2113 access to Elm could have been gained by a right turn then left onto Elm via anyone of these roads: Lamar, Austin, Market or Record (avoiding the 135 degree turn and the slowing of the motorcade).

5. The Houston to Elm route provides a view of both the approach (along Houston) of the motorcade and (after the 135 degree turn) the departure of the motorcade from a person (or sniper) on the upper floors of the TSBD Building,

6. The (approx.) 135 degree turn onto Elm requires the motorcade to slow considerably to accomplish this turn and would be dificult for the buses.

7. Once the turn onto Elm is accomplished there is no escape route for the Presidential Limousine until after it has passed below the Triple Underpass and entered the Stemmons Freeway.

8. Any shot fired while the motorcade was approaching Elm from Houston would have allowed two possible escape routes for the Presidential Limousine(continuing down Houston or turning right onto Elm (instead of left) making this shot a less favorable shot decision for a person in the TSBD Building.

9. The only building on the complete motorcade route that has a view of both the approach of the motorcade and then views its departure is the TSBD.

10. “If” conspirators existed who wanted to give Lee Harvey Oswald the most favorable opportunity possible to assassinate the President they could not have selected a better motorcade route.

11. Information was available to potential conspirators within the intelligence community of the US Govenment (via the Hosty note) of where Oswald was working.

11. As I have demonstrated there were alternative routes, which from a security approach, were safer to access the Stemmons Freeway, from Main St. (via Lamar would not have subjected the President to the threat that the Triple Underpass provided) and there were alternative ways to access Elm (rather than negotiating a 135 degree turn in front of the TSBD) rather than from Houston (Record, Market, Austin or Lamar).

Third: It is my belief that the conspirators could not have provided Lee Harvey Oswald with a better opportunity to assassinate the President.

Fourth: They (the conspirators) would have to have (a plausible reason to provide the Warren Commissioners) reason to believe that Oswald would take “the shot.”

Which returns me wher this topic began: The CIA letter to David W. Belin where the CIA suggests that if it were known that Oswald had shot at Walker then Oswald was a prime candidate to assassinate the President based upon his pro-Castro feelings that were known as far back as 1959 while Oswald was in Santa Ana, CA.

An assassin given opportunity and the note that could provide information about who knew where Oswald was working was never given a Commission Exhibit number dispite the fact that John J. McCloy was involved with the questioning of Agent Hosty about the Nov. 4, 1963 note.

Jim Root

#9 Duke Lane

Duke Lane

    Super Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,583 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:USA
  • Interests:Universally loved and admired for his keen wit, sharp intellect, loathsome egoism, and awe-inspiring self-delusion, Lane studies the JFK assassination from afar, offers few opinions, and generally keeps to himself.

Posted 28 September 2007 - 06:48 PM

Tim, Thank you for the WC information. It seems that you agree that the route was decided after the Nov. 4th Hosty note was sent. ...

8. Any shot fired while the motorcade was approaching Elm from Houston would have allowed two possible escape routes for the Presidential Limousine(continuing down Houston or turning right onto Elm (instead of left) making this shot a less favorable shot decision for a person in the TSBD Building. ....


The WC had more information than what's in CE 2113, which I'll get to in a moment ... but first, regarding your point #8, Houston Street was under construction starting a block north of Elm. At best, the limo could've gone one block before being met by barricades and a torn-up road after that (see in part the testimony of James Romack and Pops Rackley, the former of which talks about moving the barricade to allow Sam Pate's KBOX Radio car through from the construction area. Sam has confirmed the condition of the roadway to me, and I believe I've posted that somewhere here).

It then would've had to swing 90° to the right at whatever high rate of speed it might've attained, which depending upon how effective such a turn might have been - and not too many parked cars and/or trucks (the area was a shipping and warehousing district then) - they might well have found themselves boxed in. Not a good scenario.

I've long thought, too, that simply having come down Elm Street instead of Main would've posed no particular problem, but the decision seems to be a political one - more people seeing the President - than one based on security. Today, exactly the opposite is true. I've never been entirely and factually convinced that a turn greater than 90° was ever prohibited, any more than the bit about welding manhole covers shut.

CD 81.1(f) details meetings between DPD and USSS in the days leading up to the Presidential visit, starting on Wednesday, November 13. The report, made to Chief Curry by three assistant and deputy chiefs, is quite detailed. In it, the chiefs report that USSS SA Winston Lawson noted to them on Thursday, November 14, that the route that was eventually taken "seemed to be their preference at the moment," nevertheless "because the route had not been finalized, no statement should be made by this department [DPD] as to the route" [CD81.1, page 54].

On Friday, November 15, "the only thing mentioned that pertained to the police was the possible route to be taken by the motorcade," which would be determined by the city's host committee and the USSS:

"[Chief] Batchelor was asked for his opinion of the best route to take from the police stand point [sic] and he stated that of the three possible routes, Lemmon Avenue to Central Expressway to Main Street would be the route requiring the least manpower for traffic, but it was immaterial to the department and we would police any route that the committee and the Secret Service selected."

There was "no mention at this meeting which would be the final selection," although they did discuss the route that would ultimately be selected without apparently actually deciding on it. [ibid., page 55] By Monday, November 18, however, the decision had already been made because the chiefs not that, starting at 10:00 a.m., they began to make arrangements for the parade starting at Love Field, and then "ran the parade route at the speeds suggested by Mr Lawson, timing the route in its entirety" [ibid., page 56].

Even as late as the day before the parade, it had not been entirely decided - or at least not discussed with senior police personnel - what the arrangement of cars would be since Chief Stevenson "had planned for a car behind the Vice-President," which Curry further stated that he "thought we had planned that Capt Fritz would be in the motorcade behind the Vice-President's car." Lawson stated that LBJ's car would have a USSS follow-up car, and that the USSS wanted to have a police car assigned to the rear of the parade, to which it was suggested Fritz be assigned [ibid., page 63].

The question of motorcycle assignments arose next, and interestingly, according to this document, "[Captain P.W.] Lawrence said there would be four (4) motorcycles on either side of the motorcade immediately to the rear of the President's vehicle," that is, a total of eight motors, but that SA Lawson "stated that this was too many, that he thought that two (2) motorcycles on either side would be sufficient, about even with the rear fender of the President's car." Lawrence was told to disperse the other motorcycles along each side of the motorcade "to the rear" [ibid., page 64].

What inferences might be drawn from this, I leave to you.

#10 Duke Lane

Duke Lane

    Super Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,583 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:USA
  • Interests:Universally loved and admired for his keen wit, sharp intellect, loathsome egoism, and awe-inspiring self-delusion, Lane studies the JFK assassination from afar, offers few opinions, and generally keeps to himself.

Posted 28 September 2007 - 07:34 PM

... For myself I have been able to piece together a consistant, albeit convoluted theory that began by following a trail of Oswald attempting to assassinate General Walker. ...

Whatever else there may be to such a trail, how do you - other than the DeMohrenschildt and Marina testimonies - arrive at LHO "attempting to assassination General Walker?"

The bullet found in Walker's study wall was a mutilated, steel-jacketed, large (possibly .38) caliber slug. No bullets of such a nature have been tied to Oswald and certainly not to the Carcano, and other than supposition and speculation, there is no physical evidence (e.g., slug rifling) to tie him to the murder attempt.

It is also fairly inconsistent to suggest that because someone shot at a liberal president (probably "extreme left wing" to some folks aound Dallas!) would also shoot at someone who was at the far opposite extreme. Maybe he only admired centrists?

First, it must be established the Oswald shot at Walker - which can't be done beyond inference - before you can walk that primrose path.

#11 Jim Root

Jim Root

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 937 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California

Posted 19 October 2007 - 09:29 PM

Duke

I am sorry that it has taken me so long to reply to your post. But let me attempt to address some of your issues.

'Whatever else there may be to such a trail, how do you - other than the DeMohrenschildt and Marina testimonies - arrive at LHO "attempting to assassination General Walker?"'

The note that Oswald left behind which handwritting experts from, I believe three different investigations say was written by Oswald, the photographs of Walker's residence that were recovered and examined that show construction work that was only done for a few days prior to the assassination attempt on Walker can be clearly seen in the background. So other than Marina's testimony there is actually some physical evidence as well. The rifle and pistol were both ordered and received just prior to the attempt on Walker's life as well as the back yard photos being taken.

"The bullet found in Walker's study wall was a mutilated, steel-jacketed, large (possibly .38) caliber slug. No bullets of such a nature have been tied to Oswald and certainly not to the Carcano, and other than supposition and speculation,"

We have the testimony of FBI firearms expert Robert Frazier that examined the mutilated bullet from the Walker incident and concluded that it contained "four lands and grooves" with a "right" twist that was consistant with a bullet that would have been fired from a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle or one with similar barrel characteristics and that the "remaining physical characteristics of this bullet, 573, are the same as Western 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano bullets...made for this rifle, 139."

For the sake of argument I would suggest that there is a great deal of evidence, physical and verbal, that suggests that Oswald did attempt to assassinate Walker. More importantly for me has been the question of "Why would Oswald attempt to assassinate Walker?" But let me first continue with your statements.....

"It is also fairly inconsistent to suggest that because someone shot at a liberal president (probably "extreme left wing" to some folks aound Dallas!) would also shoot at someone who was at the far opposite extreme. Maybe he only admired centrists?".....

unless both assassination attempts can be tied together under one motive (which is where my research has led me). First remember what this thread is about, a CIA assessment that suggests that it would be logical to believe that Oswald would be willing to assassinate the President based upon the fact that Oswald had attempted to assassinate General Walker and his pro Castro feelings that could be traced back to his Marine days in El Toro back in 1959. (and I quote once again):

"'must be considered of great significance in light of the pathological evolution of Oswald's passive aggressive behavior after his attempt to kill (Castro hater) General (Edwin) Walker early in April 1963 and his identification with Fidel Castro and the Cuban revolution, which is directly traceable as far back as his Marine Corps service in El Toro, California."

"First, it must be established the Oswald shot at Walker - which can't be done beyond inference - before you can walk that primrose path."

According to the testimony of James Patrick Hosty the FBI began monitoring Oswald's movements based upon a report dated April 21st, 1963 (eleven days after the assassination attempt on Walker). The following is from the testimony of Agent Hosty:

Mr. HOSTY. It says, "On April 21, 1963, Dallas confidential informant T-2 advised that Lee H. Oswald of Dallas, Tex, was in contact with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New York City at which time he advised that he passed out pamphlets for the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. According to T-2, Oswald had a placard around his neck reading, 'Hands Off Cuba, Viva Fidel.'"

Mr. STERN. Did you attempt to verify that information?

Mr. HOSTY. When I got it, it was approximately 6 or 7 weeks old, past the date it allegedly took place, and we had received no information to the effect that anyone had been in the downtown streets of Dallas or anywhere in Dallas with a sign around their neck saying "Hands Off Cuba, Viva Fidel." It appeared highly unlikely to me that such an occurrence could have happened in Dallas without having been brought to our attention. So by the time I got it, it was, you might say, stale information and we did not attempt to verify it.

Mr. STERN. When you record this as something that an informant advised about on April 21, that doesn't mean he advised you or the Dallas office on April 21?

Mr. HOSTY. That is right.

Mr. STERN. Did this information come from another part of the FBI?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir; it came from the New York office of the FBI. They were advised on the 21st of April.

Mr. STERN. But the information didn't get to you until some time after?

Mr. HOSTY. In June, I believe.

Mr. STERN. Did you have any information apart from this that there was an organization active in the Dallas area called, "The Fair Play for Cuba Committee"?

Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; we had no information of any organization by that name.

Mr. STERN. Had you at this time ever heard of such an organization?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir; I had.

Mr. STERN. In what connection?

Mr. HOSTY. The New York office had advised all offices of the FBI to be on the alert for the possible formation of chapters of this organization which was headquartered in New York.

Mr. STERN. Had you investigated the Dallas area in that connection?

Mr. HOSTY. We had checked our sources, I had and other agents assigned to the internal security division had checked sources. We were on the alert for it.

Mr. STERN. And you found what?

Mr. HOSTY. We found no evidence that there was any such organization in Dallas.

Eleven days after the assassination attempt on Walker a internal FBI memo is sent out directing agents to begin monitoring the activities of Lee Harvey Oswald. From that point on we now know that the information derived from Agent Hosty in Dallas and the New Orleans FBI Agent was being directed to Richard Helms of the CIA. This information was witheld from the Warren Commission although Richard Helms office would become the pointman for providing information requested by the Warren Commission and the HSCA.

We also know from this Belin note that it could have been predicted that Oswald would be willing to assassinate the President if it was known that Oswald had attempted to assassinate Walker.

So we have a very interesting coincidence, a man that the CIA says would be willing to assassinate the President begins being monitored by the CIA within days after the event that would provide the imputus for the CIA to know that Oswald would be willing to assassinate the President did occured.

But lets not stop here. To add additional coincidences we have the fact that of the three Hosty notes that were written only two were given WC Exhibit numbers and those two have been tracked to the office of Richard Helms of the CIA (an organization that the Belin note suggests would be able to predict that Oswald would be the assassin of the President based upon his assassination attempt on Walker and his known pro Castro leaning from 1959). The third Hosty note, the one that says exactly where Lee Harvey Oswald was working (information that would be important for any conspirators that may have wanted Kennedy eliminated) was not given a Commission Exhibit number although this information would seem rather important. (McCloy would do alot of the questioning of Hosty but would neglect to assign an exhibit number to this important document). Days after the third Hosty note is written the motorcade route is designed and the absolute furthest point that it would travel, the final building that it would pass before backtracking to the Trade Mart luncheon just happens to be the building in which Oswald, the man the CIA could have predicted would assassinate the President based upon the Walker incident, is working.

But only people who would have known that Walker had been shot at and who also could have surmized that it was Oswald who would have done this deed would have been capable of knowing that Oswald would shoot at the President. These same people who could surmize this information would then have to have a reason why they would want the President dead and how they would have to be capable of covering up the fact that they would have been involved.

This is a tough order to fill, but a deeper look at the life of General Edwin Walker may provide a clue into this potential bed of conspirators.

As Chief of Staff of the Army, Maxwell Taylor turned to General Walker for two of the four crisis of his administration, The First Straits of Taiwan Crisis and the Crisis at Little Rock. In both cases Walker is refered to as Taylor's old comrade in arms as well he be considered an old friend since the Walker Taylor relationship first began in 1929 when Walker became a student at West Point and developed over the next four years while Taylor was an instructor there. Taylor would guide and direct Walkers career the whole time that he was in the military. In June (the same month that Hosty began monitoring Oswalds movements that were forwarded to the CIA) Taylor was in a major dispute with Kennedy over the Limited Test Ban Treaty with the Soviets (as the notes of a NSC meeting at the time suggests, Kennedy told Taylor to shut up this was now US policy and Taylor continued to argue with the President). If there was an important job to do Taylor, as has been shown, did not hesitate to trust Walker with the most sensitve assignments.

But there is still more.. At the time Oswald traveled from London to Helsinki on his way to defect to the Soviet Union the Warren Commission via the CIA did not identify how Oswald accomplished this trip. Although passenger lists were still availble for the flights into Helsinki in October of 1959 the CIA failed and the Warren Commission failed to produce these records leaving us to speculate that there may have been a sensitive name on those lists who may have traveled with Oswald or met him during his travels. General Walker was traveling in Europe at the same time and in earlier posts I have explained how it is possible that two could have crossed paths by using flight records derived from Fin Air for the time period of October of 1959.

One might ask for what purpose. One day before Oswald arrived in Helsinki the US Ambassador to Helsinki, John Hickerson, provided information that stated that if one were to show up at the Soviet Embassy in Helsinki and if one were to have purchased First Class Intourist vouchers before one would arrive at the Soviet Embassy the Soviet Ambassador could issue a visa into the USSR within 24 hours. Oswald followed these instruction exactly (perhaps by coincidence, perhaps after someone with a sensitive name who met Oswald as he traveled from London passed this classified information to him). But for what purpose would US Intillegence want a former Marine Radar Operator who had knowledge of the U-2 spy plane to enter Russia and perhaps share information about the U-2?

Within days of Oswald's entry into the Soviet Union a meeting of the principle US arms negotiators would take place. One of the topics of that meeting would be the fear that this group had that at the Paris Summit that would be taking place in May of the following year the US would be forced, by international pressure, into signing a Limited Test Ban Treaty that would be a danger to US security. Agreeing with this concern would be none other than future Warren Commissioner John J. McCloy. The Paris Summit would never occur after the downing of Francis Gary Powers and his U-2 over the Soviet Union on May 1, 1960. Was Oswald's entry into the Soviet Union a plan to sabatoge this Summit? Who could be trusted with passing the information to easily gain entry into the Soviet Union to Oswald. Oswald did, some how, stumble into the Soviet Embassy with exactly what was needed to gain easy access into Russia. Was Oswald being used as a "patsy" to do the work of John J. McCloy?

Kennedy would be elected in a very close election (one that I will suggest would not have gone in Kennedy's favor if the Paris Summit had resulted in the signing of the Limited Test Ban Treaty and the Powers incident never would have occured). In his first press conference Kennedy would announce the resumption of nuclear testing and the appointment of his chief arms negotiator John J. McCloy. It could be argued that without the Powers incident and if the Paris Summit would have occured, McCloy would never have attained the position that Kennedy, in his first press conference, put McCloy into. In June of 1963 McCloy would refuse to go to the USSR and negotiate Kennedy's new policy for a limited test ban treaty and would openly speak of his discust for Kennedy's failure to use the international climate that existed after the Cuban Missle Crisis to press the Soviets for a Comprehensive Nuclear Treaty.

After Kennedy's death McCloy would again be in Geneva, appointed by LBJ to negotiate with the Soviets the arms treatys that would follow in the years after the assassination.

In this same month, June of 1963, that FBI agent Hosty would begin monitoring Oswalds movements, movements that were being reported to the highest levels of US Intelligence, perhaps just by coincidence McCloy would write a letter to Walker that would be deposited in a very easy to discover place (although to my knowledge I was the first to uncover it (I have now discovered two additional copies of that same note).

Walker himself would display, at best, some rather unusual behavior when he heard of the assassination while traveling by air to Shreveport, LA. He would identify himself to everyone on the plane. The next morning, at exactly 7am, Walker would rerceive the first of two phone calls made to his hotel room where he would be interviewed by a German newspaper reporter. The following Thursday that paper would print, in Germany, the story of Oswald's attempted assassination of General Walker. The FBI would begin its investigation of the Walker incident only after the German newspaper story had been published.

"It is also fairly inconsistent to suggest that because someone shot at a liberal president (probably "extreme left wing" to some folks aound Dallas!) would also shoot at someone who was at the far opposite extreme. Maybe he only admired centrists?"

So what was Oswald's motive for shooting at both Walker and Kennedy. Perhaps it was exactly what Oswald said, the reason he was being arrested was because he had gone to the Soviet Union, he was a "patsy!"

Duke there are three things which are ommited from the Warren Commission Report that everyone today (no matter where you stand on the conspiracy question would agree).

1. What plane/s did Oswald use to travel to Helsinki from London and who else was on those planes?

2. Why did the Warren Commission fail to give the third Hosty note an Exhibit number?

3. Why did the Warren Commission fail to identify the fact that Oswald attempted to make a phone call to someone named John Hurt just hours before he himself was killed?

While I have written about the first two above I must close while dealing with the final of these three ommissions. I discovered information about John B. Hurt (30 year employee of the NSA) while investigating the military career of Edwin Walker. Walker's first association with Hurt's group would come about in the mid 1930's and Walker can again be associated with this group in 1941. (All intelligence work that John B. Hurt did between 1947 and his retirement in 1963 is still classified to this day).

McCloy was associated with Hurt beginning in 1940 and Taylor at least by the same time. Both Meredith Gardner and Frank Rowlett, who would investigate Oswald's potential intelligence connections would be involved with this same John B. Hurt for 20 years in the case of Gardner and 32 years in the case of Rowlett. Gardner and Rowlett would be in charge of the Venona Project (breaking Soviet codes) that began when Hurt intercepted some coded messeges from Tokyo to the Soviet Union during WWII where the Japanese were attempting to negotiate an end to hostilities between the Soviets and the Germans.

Operation Stella Polaris would again find Hurt, Rowlett and Gardner involved together but by coincidence it seems that Walker was involved as well. While coincidental perhaps the number of coincidences seem to be mounting rather high.

If it were known that Oswald could be associated with US Intelligence, via his attempt to contact John Hurt, the ability of US Intelligence to deny any involvement in the assassination would become very difficult. (To me this easily explains why so many agencys would follow the lead of the Warren Commission in ommiting certain information about Oswald, his travel to the Soviet Union, that the CIA was monitoring his every move in the months before the assassiantion and that Oswald had attempted to contact someone that at minimum shared a name with a very highly placed and important (all his work is still classified to this day) intelligence asset named John Hurt.

Is this story totally out of the question.....Oswald the intelligence asset, the patsy that he said that he was who had been used by US Intelligence?????

As John J. McCloy himself said in an interview with Edward J. Epstein (June 7, 1963), "I still believe it is possible some document will turn up showing Oswald may have been an agent. Not necessarily a conspiracy but an agent gone haywire."

Agent "gone haywire?" Exactly what the Belin note suggests! But perhaps only McCloy himself, the founder of the modern US Intelligence system, would have had the access to all these pieces of information and only perhaps McCloy would have known what would happen if Oswald was given the opportunity to shoot at President Kennedy. To cover up this crime Hosty's third note could never be discovered, the fact that Oswald attempted to contact John Hurt could never become known and how and why Oswald ended up at the Soviet Embassy in Helsinki could never be divulged. McCloy, the man who cracked the Black Tom case after over twenty years of failed attempts allowed these three important pieces of information (information that could point the finger at McCloy) slip by the Warren Commission and fail to make it into the final report.

Jim Root

#12 Jim Root

Jim Root

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 937 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California

Posted 14 August 2008 - 11:39 PM

Additional background on the connections to Richard Helms and his awareness of Oswald and his movements prior to the assassination of JFK. How far back Helms awareness of Oswald goes has become more relevent to recent information which I have uncovered.

Jim Root




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users