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The Epileptic Seizure


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#1 Tim Gratz

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Posted 28 November 2007 - 09:06 AM

I would be interested how many members believe the man with the seizure in front of the TSBD had anything to do with the plot?

If the incident had anything to do with the plot, what was it intended to, or what did it, accomplish?

Edited by Tim Gratz, 28 November 2007 - 09:07 AM.


#2 Kathleen Collins

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Posted 02 December 2007 - 01:31 AM

I would be interested how many members believe the man with the seizure in front of the TSBD had anything to do with the plot?

If the incident had anything to do with the plot, what was it intended to, or what did it, accomplish?


I believe it did have something to do with the Assassination. It served to distract people, so the other "actors" could get in position. For instance, Lee Oswald (of Harvey and Lee) entered the TSBD and went up to the 6th floor. He did shoot out the window at Kennedy's back, in an attempt to frame Harvey. Since we don't have Lee's account, we don't know how the murder weapon got there for him to use.

Kathy

#3 Michael Crane

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Posted 02 December 2007 - 06:17 AM

I also believe that the actor pretending to having a epileptic seizure,was using the same method a magician does using "slight of hand."

#4 William Kelly

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Posted 02 December 2007 - 09:03 AM

I would be interested how many members believe the man with the seizure in front of the TSBD had anything to do with the plot?

If the incident had anything to do with the plot, what was it intended to, or what did it, accomplish?


Tim, I believe this person has been identified as an employee of the Dallas Morning News.

BK

#5 Tim Gratz

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Posted 02 December 2007 - 09:19 AM

Bill, I know he was identified. I did not recall who his employer was.

Do you believe that he actually had the seizure and that what happened was not part of the conspiracy plot? I think Stone in "JFK" implied it was part of the plot, as Kathleen and Michael apparently think. I have not seen any convincing explanation of how the incident advanced the plot and I suspect it was a genuine medical problem.

#6 Thomas H. Purvis

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Posted 02 December 2007 - 06:41 PM

Bill, I know he was identified. I did not recall who his employer was.

Do you believe that he actually had the seizure and that what happened was not part of the conspiracy plot? I think Stone in "JFK" implied it was part of the plot, as Kathleen and Michael apparently think. I have not seen any convincing explanation of how the incident advanced the plot and I suspect it was a genuine medical problem.




The potential possibility that this was mere a chance/coincidence occurance, by far exceeds the bounds of all logic.

1. LHO/aka the shooter, could not get to the shooting position on the sixth floor of the TSDB as Bonnie Ray Williams was in this general area eating his lunch.


http://jfkassassinat...ny/williams.htm

Mr. WILLIAMS. I ate my lunch--I am not sure about this, but the third or the fourth set of windows, I believe.
Mr. BALL. Facing on what street?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Facing Elm Street.
Mr. McCLOY. What floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Sixth floor.
Mr. DULLES. You ate your lunch on the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. And you were all alone?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you sit on while you ate your lunch?
Mr. WILLIAMS. First of all, I remember there was some boxes behind me.

And, as anyone who had researched the matter should be aware:

http://jfkassassinat...y/rowland_a.htm

Arnold Roland observed Bonnie Ray Williams in the vicinity of the shooters position shortly prior to the arrival of the parade, as well as having observed the shooter at the opposite (left) side of the building.

http://history-matte...Vol16_0488b.htm

Thusly, the presence of Bonnie Ray Williams in the "shooters position" eating his lunch, in fact impaired the shooters ability as he was now forced to a side of the building in which the target acquisition and tracking of the target would have been far more difficult, and to accoust Williams would have possibly compromised the entire shooting plan.

The epliptic siezure episode created a delay/slowdown in the parade's forward speed as the blockage of Houston/Elm St. created by this occurance was radioed back to the lead vehicle in the parade.

Thusly, Bonnie Ray Williams had time to finish his lunch and ultimately decide to go to another part of the building where his friends were located (the floor below), and the shooter could now move from the poor shooting position location back over to the sixth floor window "snipers perch" area, thusly greatly enhancing the firing position location.

And although I am not of the opinion that the "epileptic" siezure victim is aware of the WHY? that he was selected for this, neither do I randomly believe in the pure "coincidence" of this matter either.

#7 John Dolva

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Posted 02 December 2007 - 07:02 PM

William: "I believe this person has been identified as an employee of the Dallas Morning News."

Very interesting.

Dealey Plaza, as usually portrayed and accepted, is merely the Northern Half of Dealey Plaza.

http://www.dealeypla...las history.htm
"The Grassy Knoll, the Texas School Book Depository, and the Triple Underpass -- many people across the planet can quickly envision the north side of Dealey Plaza when they hear any of these phrases."

"Some consider the north Texas location of Dallas as the "Heart of Texas", the second largest and arguably the most famous city in Texas. But most people don' realize that Dealey Plaza is the heart of the history of Dallas, and is the location at which Dallas was founded. So if Dallas is the heart of Texas, Dealey Plaza is the heart of Dallas..."

Significant events occurred to the south of this generally seen as DP...

Ruby in DMN.
Noon Dallas Morning News
12:30 On corner near Postal Annex Building; Dealey Plaza; Dallas Morning News
1 Carousel Club
1 Dallas Morning News

This (Dallas Morning News offics) was apparently (by studying inagery) a vantage point from the south covering the TSBD and its surrounds. Likewise Harry D Holmes (fifth floor corner office directly opposite the sixth floor 'nest', TSBD building) Postal Annex Building, is close to the same line of sight, from the post office (Terminal Annexe). (methinks that whoever can ID the 4-5 others wih HDH in his office watching the assasssination may have cracked the case, or started the process of cracking it wide open). (Likewise perhaps Fay Leon Blunt repeated and ignored calls to the FBI that they should investigate the PO. Post WC publication, FLB rapidly enters oblivion.)

As the Epileptic drew attention in the area near the TSBD, the event also drew attention away from the southern part of DP.

The attention away from the southern half and events there is firmly embedded in JFK research dogma/history in imagery, accounts, witness names, and theory. That the Epileptic was a DMN employee while Ruby was in a DMN office (or was he indeed 'watching the fireworks' from the corner of the Postal Annexe? Ground Level?) overlooking the scene is yet one more point of interest.

Something just occured to me, (how could one have missed it?), if Ruby was apparently so pally with members of the DPD, and Harry so definitely so, particularly with Capt. Fritz, and they had been living and working and moving in wide circles downtown, what reason is there to consider that Ruby and Harry were also not somehow well known to each other? Harry, in plain view, slipped through the cracks for the entire time of his life, yet so much of the case pivots around him and events he was personally involved with. Pity he's no longer around to face a grilling, and double pity that a couple of years after he resigned, the USPO became the more privatised USPS and where are all the old Dallas/NO et.c. internal USPO Postal Inspection Department records/documents today? Has anyone ever found this out? Has anyone ever bothered trying to? Fear of 'Going Postal'?



some more
TESTIMONY OF BONNIE RAY WILLIAMS
...
Mr. BALL. What year did you get out of high school?
Mr. WILLIAMS. 1962.
Mr. BALL. And where did you go to work after that?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I went to work at Marriott's Motor Hotel.
Mr. BALL. What did you do there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I started off as a dishwasher. Then they put me on as a fry cook.
Mr. BALL. And how long did you stay there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. About 6 or 7 months.
Mr. BALL. Then where did you go to work?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I went to work at Union Terminal Building, baggage department.
Mr. BALL. How long did you work there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I worked there about a year.
Mr. BALL. What kind of work did you do there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I was a mail separator.
Mr. BALL. Then where did you go?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Then I found this job at the Texas School Book Depository.
Mr. BALL. When did you get that job?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Around about September 8th.
Mr. BALL. What year?
Mr. WILLIAMS. 1963.
...

mail separator...about a year...Then I found this job at the Texas School Book Depository...September 8th...1963

hmmm...during that year he could have actually handled...er...'dum de dum'.
Nah, dead letters. Forget it.

_________________


EDIT::

Tom: "The epliptic siezure episode created a delay/slowdown in the parade's forward speed as the blockage of Houston/Elm St. created by this occurance was radioed back to the lead vehicle in the parade."

Harry D Holmes was following the progress of the motorcade by radio in his office (directly opposite the 'nest', armed with ocular/s) by his own account.. He COULD very well have seen 'the wrong person' 'in the right place' and quickly organised a call to the DMN to set up the delay.

(They were determined that 'the man on the horseback' would no longer be the one on 'Carolines tricycle'.)

Edited by John Dolva, 02 December 2007 - 08:08 PM.


#8 James Richards

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Posted 02 December 2007 - 09:44 PM

I would be interested how many members believe the man with the seizure in front of the TSBD had anything to do with the plot?

If the incident had anything to do with the plot, what was it intended to, or what did it, accomplish?


Tim, I believe this person has been identified as an employee of the Dallas Morning News.

BK


Jerry Belknap was his name.

James

#9 Michael G. Smith

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Posted 02 December 2007 - 10:47 PM

William: "I believe this person has been identified as an employee of the Dallas Morning News."

Very interesting.

Dealey Plaza, as usually portrayed and accepted, is merely the Northern Half of Dealey Plaza.

http://www.dealeypla...las history.htm
"The Grassy Knoll, the Texas School Book Depository, and the Triple Underpass -- many people across the planet can quickly envision the north side of Dealey Plaza when they hear any of these phrases."

"Some consider the north Texas location of Dallas as the "Heart of Texas", the second largest and arguably the most famous city in Texas. But most people don' realize that Dealey Plaza is the heart of the history of Dallas, and is the location at which Dallas was founded. So if Dallas is the heart of Texas, Dealey Plaza is the heart of Dallas..."

Significant events occurred to the south of this generally seen as DP...

Ruby in DMN.
Noon Dallas Morning News
12:30 On corner near Postal Annex Building; Dealey Plaza; Dallas Morning News
1 Carousel Club
1 Dallas Morning News

This (Dallas Morning News offics) was apparently (by studying inagery) a vantage point from the south covering the TSBD and its surrounds. Likewise Harry D Holmes (fifth floor corner office directly opposite the sixth floor 'nest', TSBD building) Postal Annex Building, is close to the same line of sight, from the post office (Terminal Annexe). (methinks that whoever can ID the 4-5 others wih HDH in his office watching the assasssination may have cracked the case, or started the process of cracking it wide open). (Likewise perhaps Fay Leon Blunt repeated and ignored calls to the FBI that they should investigate the PO. Post WC publication, FLB rapidly enters oblivion.)

As the Epileptic drew attention in the area near the TSBD, the event also drew attention away from the southern part of DP.

The attention away from the southern half and events there is firmly embedded in JFK research dogma/history in imagery, accounts, witness names, and theory. That the Epileptic was a DMN employee while Ruby was in a DMN office (or was he indeed 'watching the fireworks' from the corner of the Postal Annexe? Ground Level?) overlooking the scene is yet one more point of interest.

Something just occured to me, (how could one have missed it?), if Ruby was apparently so pally with members of the DPD, and Harry so definitely so, particularly with Capt. Fritz, and they had been living and working and moving in wide circles downtown, what reason is there to consider that Ruby and Harry were also not somehow well known to each other? Harry, in plain view, slipped through the cracks for the entire time of his life, yet so much of the case pivots around him and events he was personally involved with. Pity he's no longer around to face a grilling, and double pity that a couple of years after he resigned, the USPO became the more privatised USPS and where are all the old Dallas/NO et.c. internal USPO Postal Inspection Department records/documents today? Has anyone ever found this out? Has anyone ever bothered trying to? Fear of 'Going Postal'?



some more
TESTIMONY OF BONNIE RAY WILLIAMS
...
Mr. BALL. What year did you get out of high school?
Mr. WILLIAMS. 1962.
Mr. BALL. And where did you go to work after that?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I went to work at Marriott's Motor Hotel.
Mr. BALL. What did you do there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I started off as a dishwasher. Then they put me on as a fry cook.
Mr. BALL. And how long did you stay there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. About 6 or 7 months.
Mr. BALL. Then where did you go to work?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I went to work at Union Terminal Building, baggage department.
Mr. BALL. How long did you work there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I worked there about a year.
Mr. BALL. What kind of work did you do there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I was a mail separator.
Mr. BALL. Then where did you go?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Then I found this job at the Texas School Book Depository.
Mr. BALL. When did you get that job?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Around about September 8th.
Mr. BALL. What year?
Mr. WILLIAMS. 1963.
...

mail separator...about a year...Then I found this job at the Texas School Book Depository...September 8th...1963

hmmm...during that year he could have actually handled...er...'dum de dum'.
Nah, dead letters. Forget it.

_________________


EDIT::

Tom: "The epliptic siezure episode created a delay/slowdown in the parade's forward speed as the blockage of Houston/Elm St. created by this occurance was radioed back to the lead vehicle in the parade."

Harry D Holmes was following the progress of the motorcade by radio in his office (directly opposite the 'nest', armed with ocular/s) by his own account.. He COULD very well have seen 'the wrong person' 'in the right place' and quickly organised a call to the DMN to set up the delay.

(They were determined that 'the man on the horseback' would no longer be the one on 'Carolines tricycle'.)


This subject has been going on forever it seems like. Could be either way. Very good chance he just had a "fit" and needed an ambulance, and felt better once at the hospital. People with Epilepsy often have very short seizures, or they could be extended. Regardless [getting off track] it would be a very ingenious method of distracting peoples attention. Most people look at at the distraction for the TSBD. But the main objective may have been for the Dal-Tex, Co. Records building, or even the parking lot area. This would have allowed not only maybe shooters, but spotters, radio men, phony S/S and DPD men to get to their perspective locations as per plans. A few other things. Tom mentioned with BR Williams being on the 6th floor causing the shooter to take a less than desirable location for a shot, but when BR moved, it allowed him to move to the desirable location. [meaning the east end window] My opinion, the west end windows would have been a better shooting location than the east. Closer to target for one, plus an easier shot IMO. [You wouldnt have been all squeezed into the corner with that nasty pipe in the way on the east end] Additionally, the west end was the original shooter location witnessed by Arnold Rowland and his wife, and others. Another thing. John graciously posted the WC testimony of BR Williams by Mr. Ball. BRW testified about where he worked over the last few years or so. Why would BR leave a Government job working at the Post Office, for a job stacking school books for like a $1.25 an hour?? Doesnt make too much sense to me, to leave a Gov. job, [civil service] with Im sure [even at that time] ins. benefits, holidays, vacation, sick time, etc... Just seems odd, doesnt it? Here is a young black man, one year out of high school, with no other schooling, or prior P.O. exp. who was a dishwasher and a fry cook, getting a job at the Union Terminal Annex Post Office. Then leaving it. I guess Ive seen weirder things. JMO FWIW-MS

#10 Gene Kelly

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Posted 03 December 2007 - 03:38 PM

James:
Any background on Jerry Belknap? Was he really epileptic, who did he work for, what ever happened to him? I had read that when he arrived at Parkland Hospital, he refused treatment and then disappeared. I hope he's not another strange, coincidental death in the ensuing years. As I recall (maybe Larry Hancock's book), there were a series of false alarms or calls to the ambulance company in the month prior to the assassination, implying a scheme to time how long an ambulance would respond to Elm and Houston. Perhaps the distraction was also aimed at occupying the ambulance from Parkland, so none would be available in the next half hour. While no investigatory proof is available, this seizure anecdote is another coincidence in this case that just 'feels' sinister. - gene

#11 Steve Thomas

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Posted 03 December 2007 - 07:12 PM

Gene,

James:
Any background on Jerry Belknap? Was he really epileptic, who did he work for, what ever happened to him?


On the day of JFK's assassination, Belknap was 23 andworking part time in the Dallas Morning News mail room.

He lived on Ross St. in Irving. He rode the bus in to watch the motorcade.

He didn't have epilepsy, but had bee in a car accident and suffered a head injury which caused him to have fainting spells if he didn't take his medication at least three times a day.

Due to the excitement of JFK's visit, he had forgotten to take his medication, and had fainted.

You can read his FBI interview here:

http://www.maryferre...mp;relPageId=16

It's CD 1245 pp. 8 - 10.

Steve Thomas

#12 Larry Hancock

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Posted 03 December 2007 - 08:58 PM

You are correct Gene, that comes from my book and is sourced from one of the ambulance staff who picked him up and took him to
Parkland. He has also mentioned that he thought it was amazing the fellow was able to walk out of Parkland as he himself was prevented
from leaving and he thought the whole area was sealed at the the time. He did relate the FBI inquiry into the fake calls and that does seem
very suspicious. Certainly it adds to the issue of the ideal timing of the incident.

Problem is that it may be totally innocent, there was never any real background investigation of Belnap and we face the issue that a
non conspiratorial person would write it off as closed after the FBI inteview while others of us would like to know who his friends, associates,
hang outs etc were and wether someone arranged for him just to pull a minor stunt that day which ended up being a lot more serious than
just that. Of course that could be said for others as well. But without knowing any real background on these folks its a toss of the dice.

For me the pattern of fake ambulance calls to the cornor of Elm and Houston causes me to treat the incident as suspicious.

The same could be said for the stalled pick up down by the overpass which diverted police before the motorcade arrived. There just
seem to be a lot of coincidences in the Plaza that day in the hour or so around the time of the motorcade.

-- Larry

James:
Any background on Jerry Belknap? Was he really epileptic, who did he work for, what ever happened to him? I had read that when he arrived at Parkland Hospital, he refused treatment and then disappeared. I hope he's not another strange, coincidental death in the ensuing years. As I recall (maybe Larry Hancock's book), there were a series of false alarms or calls to the ambulance company in the month prior to the assassination, implying a scheme to time how long an ambulance would respond to Elm and Houston. Perhaps the distraction was also aimed at occupying the ambulance from Parkland, so none would be available in the next half hour. While no investigatory proof is available, this seizure anecdote is another coincidence in this case that just 'feels' sinister. - gene



#13 Larry Hancock

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 12:21 AM

It's a skill I'm trying to develop Peter...grin.

By the way, I should point out that Gary Mack reminded me that the seizure victim had also been interviewed by Jerry Rose. So he
really is not a mystery man. Still, I doubt that any of his interviews substitute for a solid background investigation so I retain my
right to be suspicious and contrarian. The series of fake ambulance calls to that intersection actually seem a stronger argument for
a developing plot than the seizure....to me...

Gary also pointed out that the pick-up was not literally in the plaza since it was beyond the overpass...a point which I cheerfully concede.

-- Larry

#14 Jack White

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 01:51 AM

It's a skill I'm trying to develop Peter...grin.

By the way, I should point out that Gary Mack reminded me that the seizure victim had also been interviewed by Jerry Rose. So he
really is not a mystery man. Still, I doubt that any of his interviews substitute for a solid background investigation so I retain my
right to be suspicious and contrarian. The series of fake ambulance calls to that intersection actually seem a stronger argument for
a developing plot than the seizure....to me...

Gary also pointed out that the pick-up was not literally in the plaza since it was beyond the overpass...a point which I cheerfully concede.

-- Larry



To the contrary, the ambulance pickup was at Houston and Elm, and was filmed
by Charles Bronson. The Bronson film shows the flashing light atop the ambulance.

Jack

#15 Gene Kelly

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 04:57 AM

Larry:
I acknowledge that the episode is highly suggestive (i.e. innocent bystander mysteriously struck ill, with impeccable timing) so it draws us naturally into suspicion. Then we logically must admit there's no factual data to implicate Belknap, so maybe we're simply reading too much into this. But I'm reminded of quotes (by Dulles, Ian Fleming et al) about the role of "coincidence" in intelligence craft. I wonder where Jerry Belknap is today, why no deeper inquiries occurred. So - for me - there's no logical reason other than it just really feels out of balance... just intuitively wrong. My intuition tells me something contrived and insidious occurred with this assumed seizure. I also wonder who christened it as a 'seizure' since he appears to have made a quick recovery. Didn't this ambulance become the same one that took JFK's body to Air Force 1?-- gene


You are correct Gene, that comes from my book and is sourced from one of the ambulance staff who picked him up and took him to
Parkland. He has also mentioned that he thought it was amazing the fellow was able to walk out of Parkland as he himself was prevented
from leaving and he thought the whole area was sealed at the the time. He did relate the FBI inquiry into the fake calls and that does seem
very suspicious. Certainly it adds to the issue of the ideal timing of the incident.

Problem is that it may be totally innocent, there was never any real background investigation of Belnap and we face the issue that a
non conspiratorial person would write it off as closed after the FBI interview while others of us would like to know who his friends, associates,
hang outs etc were and whether someone arranged for him just to pull a minor stunt that day which ended up being a lot more serious than
just that. Of course that could be said for others as well. But without knowing any real background on these folks its a toss of the dice.

For me the pattern of fake ambulance calls to the cornor of Elm and Houston causes me to treat the incident as suspicious.

The same could be said for the stalled pick up down by the overpass which diverted police before the motorcade arrived. There just
seem to be a lot of coincidences in the Plaza that day in the hour or so around the time of the motorcade.

-- Larry

James:
Any background on Jerry Belknap? Was he really epileptic, who did he work for, what ever happened to him? I had read that when he arrived at Parkland Hospital, he refused treatment and then disappeared. I hope he's not another strange, coincidental death in the ensuing years. As I recall (maybe Larry Hancock's book), there were a series of false alarms or calls to the ambulance company in the month prior to the assassination, implying a scheme to time how long an ambulance would respond to Elm and Houston. Perhaps the distraction was also aimed at occupying the ambulance from Parkland, so none would be available in the next half hour. While no investigatory proof is available, this seizure anecdote is another coincidence in this case that just 'feels' sinister. - gene






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