New Discovery Channel Program on JFK Limo

[Pamela Brown]

I have just returned from Dearborn, Michigan, where the rebuilt JFK Limousine that once was SS-100-X is on display. I was interviewed as part of one of the sections of the program. It was an amazing experience. I have spent time at the Ford Museum before, and many hours with the limo, but this time I was able to see it in the early hours before the public was allowed in. The camera crew started to set up at 5 a.m. and did interviews and some still footage including the interior, prior to 9:30 when the music was turned on and the crowds arrived. I was able to take some good photos also -- when the sun is up it shines on the limo and creates reflections and distortions.

Needless to say, I can't talk much about the contents of the program, but can give a heads-up that it looks to be not only interesting, but perhaps really valuable. I'll post more as I am able prior to the initial air date which is November 4, 2008.

Ironically, as I was being driven back home from the Minneapolis-St. Paul airport I noticed the huge blimp in the sky. It is over the gorgeous Interlachen Country Club in Edina, where the US Womens' Open is taking place. It's not every day that the Twin Cities are the focus of excitement for a sports event such as this.

[William Kelly]

I have just returned from Dearborn, Michigan, where the rebuilt JFK Limousine that once was SS-100-X is on display. I was interviewed as part of one of the sections of the program. It was an amazing experience. I have spent time at the Ford Museum before, and many hours with the limo, but this time I was able to see it in the early hours before the public was allowed in. The camera crew started to set up at 5 a.m. and did interviews and some still footage including the interior, prior to 9:30 when the music was turned on and the crowds arrived. I was able to take some good photos also -- when the sun is up it shines on the limo and creates reflections and distortions.

Needless to say, I can't talk much about the contents of the program, but can give a heads-up that it looks to be not only interesting, but perhaps really valuable. I'll post more as I am able prior to the initial air date which is November 4, 2008.

Ironically, as I was being driven back home from the Minneapolis-St. Paul airport I noticed the huge blimp in the sky. It is over the gorgeous Interlachen Country Club in Edina, where the US Womens' Open is taking place. It's not every day that the Twin Cities are the focus of excitement for a sports event such as this.

Pam,

Did you mention that the limo SS-100 X is still considered a crime scene?

BK

[Mark Knight]

Bill, any evidentiary value of the mobile crime scene better known as SS-100-X was lost on Monday, November 25, 1963 when the limo was taken to Hess & Eisenhardt in Cincinnati and was essentially stripped. So while it IS a crime scene, it is one in name only since that date.

Kinda like Elm Street in Dallas after repaving and curb restriping.

[William Kelly]

Bill, any evidentiary value of the mobile crime scene better known as SS-100-X was lost on Monday, November 25, 1963 when the limo was taken to Hess & Eisenhardt in Cincinnati and was essentially stripped. So while it IS a crime scene, it is one in name only since that date.

Kinda like Elm Street in Dallas after repaving and curb restriping.

Agreed. But wonder if any of the men who worked on refurbishing it are still alive to bear witness to what they saw and had to 'repair'?! I'd almost be willing to be they had to take secrecy oaths or have been just plain threatened to keep their mouths shut....but one never knows...after all this time....

I would think Pam could answer any question you have about SS100X.

BK

[J. Raymond Carroll]

I would think Pam could answer any question you have about SS100X.

BK

Pamela gave a presentation on the limo at the Lancer NID conference in 1999, and I forgot to ask her a follow-up question then, so I will pose it here: In response to my question, Pamela said that the passengers in the rear seats (JFK & Jackie), could raise or lower their side window according to personal preferences. I forgot to ask

1. whether this was done via an old-fashioned wind-up handle or via a modern electric button and

2, more importantly, whether the driver ALSO had the ability to control the two rear passenger windows, as is typical in modern cars

It appears from this photo that the side window on JFK's side was already rolled completely down when he entered the limo at love Field, and I wonder if that was the norm for JFK on previous trips, e.g. Houston?

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/170/4257164...848f929.jpg?v=0

[Pamela Brown]

Pam,

Did you mention that the limo SS-100 X is still considered a crime scene?

BK

Bill,

When I read a copy of the script of the program (roughed out to date) I said to the producer (with some irony, as I am never without something to say about the limo), "What do you want me to say? You've given all my best lines to other people!"

Yes, the focus of the program is on the limo as the primary crime scene. It will be very interesting, and may end up being valuable as well.

[Pamela Brown]

Bill, any evidentiary value of the mobile crime scene better known as SS-100-X was lost on Monday, November 25, 1963 when the limo was taken to Hess & Eisenhardt in Cincinnati and was essentially stripped. So while it IS a crime scene, it is one in name only since that date.

Kinda like Elm Street in Dallas after repaving and curb restriping.

The SS did informal searches of the limo during the 12 hours following the assassination. Then the FBI did a rather cursory forensic exam at 1 a.m. 11.23.63. All of this is detailed at my JFK website www.in-broad-daylight.com. It was cleaned out on Saturday, the windshield replaced on Monday by Arlington Glass, and new carpeting installed in early December.

The limo was kept in the White House Garage until December 20, 1963 when Vaughn Ferguson Drove it to Dearborn to be gutted and rebuilt as a bulletproof limo.

Sounds like you may be referencing Mr. Whittaker, who has attempted to appropriate Vaughn Ferguson's statements and rework them into his own experiences. Ferguson was at Dearborn regularly and played golf with a number of FMC employees. Ferguson told the story of his experiences with the limo to numerous people. He was very unhappy with the govt treatment of the car. A few other employees at the FMC have attempted to appropriate Ferguson's statments as well. This is evidence of the significance of the limo as the crime scene.

[Pamela Brown]

Agreed. But wonder if any of the men who worked on refurbishing it are still alive to bear witness to what they saw and had to 'repair'?! I'd almost be willing to bet they had to take secrecy oaths or have been just plain threatened to keep their mouths shut....but one never knows...after all this time....

Vaughn Ferguson shared his experiences and concerns with a number of people at the FMC. Nobody moved it upward. If NARA had not sent me his memo by mistake (it was still being withheld) we would not have known about his experiences at all.

[David G. Healy]

Bill, any evidentiary value of the mobile crime scene better known as SS-100-X was lost on Monday, November 25, 1963 when the limo was taken to Hess & Eisenhardt in Cincinnati and was essentially stripped. So while it IS a crime scene, it is one in name only since that date.

Kinda like Elm Street in Dallas after repaving and curb restriping.

Agreed. But wonder if any of the men who worked on refurbishing it are still alive to bear witness to what they saw and had to 'repair'?! I'd almost be willing to bet they had to take secrecy oaths or have been just plain threatened to keep their mouths shut....but one never knows...after all this time....

for more info concerning the Limo see: Murder in Dealey Plaza, Part II, The Kennedy Limousine pgs. 120-159, by Douglas Weldon, J.S.

[Pat Speer]

From patspeer.com, chapter 11:

On May 13, 1964, in testimony before the Warren Commission, Robert Frazier described his search of the limousine for bullet fragments late on the night of the shooting. Two bullet fragments had already been retrieved from the front seat by the Secret Service. First, Frazier described the car: "There were blood and particles of flesh scattered all over the hood, the windshield, in the front seat and all over the rear floor rugs, the jump seats, and over the rear seat, and down both sides of the side rails or tops of the doors of the car." Then Frazier described his search: "I examined the car to determine whether or not there were any bullet fragments present in it, embedded in the upholstery of the back of the front seat, or whether there were any impact areas which indicated that bullets or bullet fragments struck the inside of the car." At this point he found three small bullet fragments on the carpet under Nellie Connally's jump seat. By his finding these three fragments, and by his using the word "examine" to describe his search, Frazier gave the clear implication that he was extremely thorough in his search for bullet fragments.

When asked if he felt his search was indeed a "thorough examination of all aspects of the interior of the automobile," however, Frazier's response was not without its qualifications. He replied: "Yes, sir; for our purpose. However, we did not tear out all of the rugs on the floor, for instance. We examined the rugs carefully for holes, for bullet furroughs, for fragments. We examined the nap of the rug, in the actual nap of the rug, for fragments and bullet holes. We pulled the rug back as far as we could turn it back and even tore the glue or adhesive material loose around the cracks at the edges of the rug so we could observe the cracks to see whether they had been enlarged, and we examined all of the upholstery covering, on the back of the front seat, on the doors, and in the rear seat compartment, the jump seats, the actual rear seat, the back of the rear seat, and we examined the front seat in a similar manner, and we found no bullet holes or other bullet impact areas, other than the one on the inside of the windshield and the dent inside the windshield chrome." (5H58-74).

An 11-27-63 Secret Service report on this inspection, included in the Secret Service's report on the limo to the Warren Commission, CD80, confirms "a meticulous examination was made of the back seat of the car and the floor rug." But this wasn't exactly true.

In David Fisher's book Hard Evidence, Frazier was more forthcoming about this examination. He revealed "The President's limousine arrived back in Washington about six o'clock. Around one o'clock the next morning, Cort (Cortland Cunningham) and I started sifting through the blood looking for lead fragments. It was tough; it was very tough...We'd just reach down into the clots of blood and scoop it up in our hands and let it dribble through. Whenever we felt something gritty, we'd clean it up and if it was lead, we'd save it in a pillbox. We didn't really recover a lot of lead." Evidently, they never thought of sponging off the blood and inspecting the carpet with a metal detector and a magnifying glass.

In any event, according to the Secret Service's own report on the limo, CD80, by the afternoon of the 23rd a Secret Service agent was requesting permission to clean the rest of the blood from the back seat and floor of the limo. At this time, he was told to wait for FBI approval. The very next day he made a second request, this time noting "that the odor from the car was becoming offensive." This request, almost certainly made after the announcement of Oswald's death, was granted "after clearance from the FBI." Late that evening, the limousine was cleaned up. No FBI agent was present. According to the Secret Service's own records, "there were still fragments of bone and hair in the debris of the car which had not been removed by the FBI search team." There's no record of what became of this "bone and hair." There's no indication that this clean-up crew looked for small fragments of lead hidden amongst this bone and hair. A Ford Motor Company memo first obtained and reported by researcher Pamela McElwain-Brown, moreover, demonstrates that within 10 days of the shooting, the carpet of the limousine had been removed by "the White House upholstery man" and had been replaced by the writer of the memo, Ford Motor company employee Vaughn Ferguson. There's no record of what this "upholsterer" did with this carpet. There's no reason to believe that a thorough inspection of this carpet was ever undertaken.

[Jack White]

Bill, any evidentiary value of the mobile crime scene better known as SS-100-X was lost on Monday, November 25, 1963 when the limo was taken to Hess & Eisenhardt in Cincinnati and was essentially stripped. So while it IS a crime scene, it is one in name only since that date.

Kinda like Elm Street in Dallas after repaving and curb restriping.

Agreed. But wonder if any of the men who worked on refurbishing it are still alive to bear witness to what they saw and had to 'repair'?! I'd almost be willing to bet they had to take secrecy oaths or have been just plain threatened to keep their mouths shut....but one never knows...after all this time....

for more info concerning the Limo see: Murder in Dealey Plaza, Part II, The Kennedy Limousine pgs. 120-159, by Douglas Weldon, J.S.

While Pamela relies on "official documents", Doug Weldon interviewed actual persons in Michigan who

worked on the actual limo...far more reliable than self-serving documents by the SS and FBI.

Jack

[Bernice Moore]

Bill, any evidentiary value of the mobile crime scene better known as SS-100-X was lost on Monday, November 25, 1963 when the limo was taken to Hess & Eisenhardt in Cincinnati and was essentially stripped. So while it IS a crime scene, it is one in name only since that date.

Kinda like Elm Street in Dallas after repaving and curb restriping.

Agreed. But wonder if any of the men who worked on refurbishing it are still alive to bear witness to what they saw and had to 'repair'?! I'd almost be willing to bet they had to take secrecy oaths or have been just plain threatened to keep their mouths shut....but one never knows...after all this time....

for more info concerning the Limo see: Murder in Dealey Plaza, Part II, The Kennedy Limousine pgs. 120-159, by Douglas Weldon, J.S.

**************

Doug Weldon : TMWKK The Final Chapter, ep.1.The Smoking Gun, seg 2

Limo information begins with Dr.2 minutes ..Dr.Galanges......54 seconds into the video..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAW-bxxZfcM

The Limo Windshield, Bullet from Front

Limo to Detroit, Part I

TMWKK, The Final Chapter, ep.1 The Smoking Gun, seg.3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmMXfBgjsh0...feature=related

JFK Assassination, Presidential limo SS-100-X, part 5

B.......

[David G. Healy]

Bill, any evidentiary value of the mobile crime scene better known as SS-100-X was lost on Monday, November 25, 1963 when the limo was taken to Hess & Eisenhardt in Cincinnati and was essentially stripped. So while it IS a crime scene, it is one in name only since that date.

Kinda like Elm Street in Dallas after repaving and curb restriping.

Agreed. But wonder if any of the men who worked on refurbishing it are still alive to bear witness to what they saw and had to 'repair'?! I'd almost be willing to bet they had to take secrecy oaths or have been just plain threatened to keep their mouths shut....but one never knows...after all this time....

for more info concerning the Limo see: Murder in Dealey Plaza, Part II, The Kennedy Limousine pgs. 120-159, by Douglas Weldon, J.S.

**************

Doug Weldon : TMWKK The Final Chapter, ep.1.The Smoking Gun, seg 2

Limo information begins with Dr.2 minutes ..Dr.Galanges......54 seconds into the video..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAW-bxxZfcM

The Limo Windshield, Bullet from Front

Limo to Detroit, Part I

TMWKK, The Final Chapter, ep.1 The Smoking Gun, seg.3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmMXfBgjsh0...feature=related

JFK Assassination, Presidential limo SS-100-X, part 5

B.......

tnx, B.... they're trying to bury Doug's work... never happen!

David

Edited June 30, 2008 by David G. Healy

[Pamela Brown]

While Pamela relies on "official documents", Doug Weldon interviewed actual persons in Michigan who

worked on the actual limo...far more reliable than self-serving documents by the SS and FBI.

Jack

Vaughn Ferguson is documented by his statements and a newspaper article to have been with the limo for the 4 days after the assassination. He should have been with the limo on the Texas trip, but was conveniently left behind in DC to arrange the cars for the Army-Navy game the following week-end. I brought Ferguson's memo and his statements to the research community. His memo was sent to me by mistake by NARA in a batch of limo docs while it was still being withheld.

Ferguson played golf at Dearborn and told anyone who would listen what happened to the limo. Some other FMC employees have attempted to appropriate his experiences for themselves. Whittaker is not the only one.

[Pamela Brown]

I would think Pam could answer any question you have about SS100X.

BK

Pamela gave a presentation on the limo at the Lancer NID conference in 1999, and I forgot to ask her a follow-up question then, so I will pose it here: In response to my question, Pamela said that the passengers in the rear seats (JFK & Jackie), could raise or lower their side window according to personal preferences. I forgot to ask

1. whether this was done via an old-fashioned wind-up handle or via a modern electric button and

2, more importantly, whether the driver ALSO had the ability to control the two rear passenger windows, as is typical in modern cars

It appears from this photo that the side window on JFK's side was already rolled completely down when he entered the limo at love Field, and I wonder if that was the norm for JFK on previous trips, e.g. Houston?

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/170/4257164...848f929.jpg?v=0

It is my thinking that the controls were electric, and that there was not a control button that the driver could operate. It would seem that when the car was in its open (and unsafe) configuration that it would be consistent with that to have the windows down. I'll check my documentation when I get a chance to make sure.