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Evidence of shooter in Nix film?


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#1 Guest_Rasp_*

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Posted 30 July 2004 - 11:12 AM

Has anyone else seen this?



I think I may have discovered evidence of a shot being fired from the Grassy Knoll.If I have then I cannot understand why no one else has seen this. First get yourself a copy of the Orville Nix film and a copy of QuickTime 6.4 or any other movie viewer.
Load the Nix film and run the Nix film thru once to get your bearings.
Pay special attention to the point where a cloud of red mist appears above President Kennedy's head.Take the cursor and run it manually back and forth keeping your eye out as the red mist appears - this is the exact second when the shot hits President Kennedy.Using the cursor run the sequence back and forth.Now divert your eyes to the area on top of the wall directly in a straight line from President Kennedy's head.In my opinion there is a definite white flash. It is very faint but it is visible. Can you see it? Also behind this white flash there is perceptible movement. Is this evidence of someone shooting?I have noticed that the appearance of the red mist above President Kennedy's head and the appearance of the flash are simultaneous.

Use the Quick Time cursor to move back and forth. In my view the appearance of the red mist and the flash appear at exactly the same instant. In my view also this is clear evidence of someone shooting at President Kennedy.Note also that the source of the flash seems to track the movement of the Lincoln. Whoever is there is taking aim,lining up and tracking the target.


I would appreciate your views.

Edited by Rasp, 30 July 2004 - 01:55 PM.


#2 Larry Peters

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Posted 30 July 2004 - 02:18 PM

Eugene - the area you are talking about is seen in the Moorman Polaroid within 3.6/18s of a second of the head shot and there isn't anyone there. If one lightens the Nix film - there isn't anyone there. The particular frame you showed was well after the head shot for the frame below equates with Z312 and the limo is further East than your frame shows.

There is one observation that a few researchers have made in the past where they think there is an assassin near a car seen in the parking lot between the fence and the shelter. I had to smile when one researcher looked at this observation and immediately noticed that if there was a shooter there, then Nix was the only thing he could have seen. You see, the Moorman photo shows this area over the wall and out of view from her position. It was pointed out that if Moorman cannot see the car and it's alleged assassin, then the assassin couldn't see Moorman either. Knowing that JFK was lower to the street than Moorman's camera was, then it can be logically deduced that no assassin had a shot at the President from that location in the RR yard.

Edited by Larry Peters, 30 July 2004 - 02:44 PM.


#3 Guest_Rasp_*

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Posted 30 July 2004 - 02:44 PM

Thank you Larry for your reply.


So I was right in that other people had said they'd seen something there.

Did you take my advice and view a copy of the Nix film?

Nevertheless, if you were to view the Nix movie I think you would agree that there is something going on in the area I indicated. Note that the area ia very small and my markers do not give a precise location of the 'flash'. I have no means of knowing what frame it is. I am merely going by the appearance of the 'red mist' and the flash(?).

I think it is not possible to say what a person who is pointing a gun at you and several metres away from you is actually aiming at. He may be aiming at something in the middle distance or indeed beyond and behind you.

For example:



A -------------->B-------------->C------------->D------------>


Where A is the gunman pointing at B,C or D who is A actually aiming at?

Is he aiming at B,C or D? Or is A aiming at some undetermined area or target between himself (A) and B,C,D or between B and C or C and D
You cannot assume that because someone is in the line of fire that that someone is indeed the target or even that that someone would be hit if the gun was fired.




EBC

Edited by Rasp, 30 July 2004 - 02:47 PM.


#4 Larry Peters

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Posted 30 July 2004 - 03:25 PM

So I was right in that other people had said they'd seen something there.


I'm not sure what all everyone has said to have seen, but the Moorman photo shows that no one is there. I know one person thought he seen a figure of a man against the wall, but it turned out to be the shadows of the leaves from the tree above and I marked that shape with two blue arrows. One arrow pointing to what looked like a head and the other the lower body. In versions of Moorman's photo that are dark, it does take on the shape of a person somewhat, but in lighter versions it disappears.

The red dotted box is the area where you thought something was going on.

The dark dotted circle is the line of sight near the pergola that would travel above the car seen in the parking lot. Because the street is so low, the view from the where Moorman stood does not allow anyone to see the car in question and all that is seen in the very top of a tree located across the RR yard. The point I was trying to make was not to tell anyone what an alleged assassin might possibly aiming at, but rather what he could not be aiming at. The South pasture slopes uphill from Elm to Main and someone from that location could see Nix, but not Moorman because the wall would block her from their view. Kennedy being even lower to the street than Moorman's camera was would also be out of view from that parking lot location because of that wall. I hope I explained it better than I did the first time.


Did you take my advice and view a copy of the Nix film?


There is no red mist on my copy at the point in time of your example frame, but my grass is green and not a burnt brown like your frame appeared to be. I am certain that the grass in the film version you are seeing is giving the illusion in places that its a reddish mist you're seeing as JFK passes by them. Kennedy's head was between Nix and the pedestal when the fatal shot killed JFK. Well before the limo rolled to the point that your frame shows, the gusting air current had already dissipated the mist cloud.

Edited by Larry Peters, 30 July 2004 - 03:29 PM.


#5 Guest_Rasp_*

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 02:04 PM

Thank you for your reply, Larry and also for your thumbnails,

The 'red mist' I am referring to is the sudden spurt of blood from President Kennedy's head as the bullet hits. Actually it's not a 'spurt' it is, as I say a sort of mist halo of blood. I cannot understand why your copy of the Nix film has not this 'red mist'.
The 'red mist' is also evident in the Zapruder film and is therefore no 'illusion'
In forensic terms the 'red mist' (my words) is called 'blood spattering'.
'Blood spattering' can be either large amounts of blood or a fine globular mist.
In the Nix and Zapruder films we see the initial globular mist effect which was immediately followed by a more severe and terminal loss of blood.

You may be able to download the Nix and Zapruder films from:



http://www.unglaubli...mlphp/film.html


As regards the colours of the grass in the Nix film all I can say is it looks pretty green to me.

You say the 'gusting air' had already dissipated the red mist. How does 'gusting air' dissipate an 'illusion'? On the question of 'gusting air' I am not sure of the air speed measured on the Beauford Scale on 22 November 1963 at 12:30 p.m.
Gusting would suggest a strong wind blowing. Was it windy that day or during the Nix sequence?

Are there any weather reports which give details on the weather conditions and air speed on that day in Dallas 1963?

In my view the day seemed an unusually bright sunny day although I have read reports that the weather was wet and overcast earlier in Dallas on that day.

According to Mathew Smith's book 'JFK, The Second Plot' there are suspicions among some people that there is something going on in the background where I highlighted.

Also on the point of what an assassin may be aiming at. I believe it is impossible to know what a gunman who is at a good distance from the viewer is either aiming at or not aiming at. To come even close to such a determination (and remember I say it is impossible so determination is probably the wrong word) on the intended target at high to medium distance is impossible. To know such a thing you need to know the actual distance, the actual angle of the barrel of the weapon to the intended target. It took the arrival of the computer before the US Army had the capability to work out the trajectory and projection of a tankshell with any degree of accuracy.
Put it like this: if some maniac were to stand on the roof of the Super Bowl and point his weapon towards the mass of people below it would take a mathematical genius in ballistics to find out the actual person the gunman is aiming at and intending to hit.
Finally, if Nix had had any idea that he was going to be hit he would have ducked or run. The very fact that we have the Nix film is evidence in itself that Nix did not see any gunman.But because Nix did not see any gunman is not evidence that there was no gunman present.


EBC

Edited by Rasp, 02 August 2004 - 05:05 PM.


#6 Bill Miller

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 07:11 PM

The 'red mist' I am referring to is the sudden spurt of blood from President Kennedy's head as the bullet hits. Actually it's not a 'spurt' it is, as I say a sort of mist  halo of blood. I cannot understand why your copy of the Nix film has not this 'red mist'.


I think Larry said it best when he mentioned that on his copy of the Nix film that the grass isn't a burnt color. To better understand at what moment that Eugene believes to see this blood mist is to coordinate the Nix film with the Zapruder film. From where Orville Nix stood, Jackie's right arm comes to a 90 degree right angle with the street as she reaches over JFK's head. This happens just as she passes between Nix and the trunk of the pyracantha bush. The equates with frame Z326. The Nix frame that Eugene believes there is a mist cloud seen in it equates with Z330. JFK was not hit with a bullet after Z313 and there is never another mist cloud seen on the Zapruder film after Z316. That means that another color source is causing Eugene to think he sees a blood mist cloud in the Nix frame capture that he used. The darker burnt colors of the grass in different places on his copy of the Nix film seems like a logical source. I hope this information helped.

Bill

Edited by Bill Miller, 03 August 2004 - 03:01 AM.


#7 David G. Healy

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 10:37 PM

The 'red mist' I am referring to is the sudden spurt of blood from President Kennedy's head as the bullet hits. Actually it's not a 'spurt' it is, as I say a sort of mist  halo of blood. I cannot understand why your copy of the Nix film has not this 'red mist'.


I think Larry said it best when he mentioned that on his copy of the Nix film that the grass isn't a burnt color. To better understand at what moment that Eugene believes to see this blood mist is to coordinate the Nix film with the Zapruder film. From where Orville Nix stood, Jackie's right arm comes to a 90 degree right angle with the street as she reaches over JFK's head. This happens just as she passes between Nix and the trunk of the pyracantha bush. The equates with frame Z326. The Nix frame that Eugene believes there is a mist cloud seen in it equates with Z335. JFK was not hit with a bullet after Z313 and there is never another mist cloud seen after Z316. That means that another color source is causing Eugene to think he sees a blood mist cloud in the Nix frame capture that he used. The darker burnt colors of the grass in different places on his copy of the Nix film seems like a logical source. I hope this information helped.

dgh01: would be nice if you can provide a seamless DP film study, been what, 3 maybe 3.5 years now? Till then more NOISE - just another posting based on non-specified imagery[of unknown lineage] from who knows WHERE. Not scholarly in the least... dare you say Mr. Peters?

Might want to intro yourself Bill, John Simkin and other moderators have a special page for that purpose - let us ALL know who you are!
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Bill

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



#8 Bill Miller

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 11:52 PM

"dgh01: would be nice if you can provide a seamless DP film study, been what, 3 maybe 3.5 years now? Till then more NOISE - just another posting based on non-specified imagery[of unknown lineage] from who knows WHERE. Not scholarly in the least... dare you say Mr. Peters?"

I can't speak for Larry, nor can I tell from one sentence to the next who you are talking to, but people say that's typical when it comes to your participation in anything that deals with the JFK assassination. BTW - what is scholarly by you constantly saying the same thing over and over and never addressing any points concerning film alteration? You certainly don't think you're going to waste my time by making disjointed general replies like the ones you made throughout this thread. I'm afraid that I will have to insist that you come up to my level if we are going to interact.

Bill Miller
JFK Assassination Researcher/Investigator

#9 Larry Peters

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 02:32 AM


Bill, I computed it out, and that frame is N41 and the head shot is at N23. The speed of Nix's camera was 18.5fps, so that's .975 seconds X 18.3fps = 17.8 +
313 = Z330-331.

Larry

Edited by Larry Peters, 03 August 2004 - 02:46 AM.


#10 Bill Miller

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 02:36 AM

dgh01: would be nice if you can provide a seamless DP film study, been what, 3 maybe 3.5 years now? Till then more NOISE - just another posting based on non-specified imagery[of unknown lineage] from who knows WHERE.


If you think there are frames from the assassination films that don't show the same things from frame to frame, then let me know what numbers they are and we'll take a look at them. I have personally never seen anything on an assassination film that isn't supported by the others films and photos taken during the same moment in time.

#11 Bill Miller

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 02:51 AM

Bill, I computed it out, and that frame is N41 and the head shot is at N23. The speed of Nix's camera was 18.5fps, so that's .975 seconds X 18.3fps = 17.8 +
313 = Z330-331.

Larry



Thanks, Larry. I will go back and replace Z335 with Z330.

Bill Miller
JFK Assassination Researcher/Investigator

Edited by Bill Miller, 03 August 2004 - 03:07 AM.


#12 Guest_Rasp_*

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 10:39 AM

Dear Larry,

Reference your remark that the grass in my version of the Nix film as being a lot browner than the lush green in yours. On further reflection and observation I accept your analysis totally. I cannot explain or account for the difference in colour. Perhaps your version has been visually enhanced?

Please find below an extract from Matthew Smith's book:

Chapter nine, Camera,Action:

"The Orville Nix movie was another (film) not seen by the American public for a long time.
Nix shot his movie from across the street from Abraham Zapruder, following the motorcade with his camera down Elm Street and framing the President receiving all his wounds.
As the parade progressed, his camera aligned with the grassy knoll which showed clearly in the background and behind the main frame activity there was movement.
There was a man on the steps which led up the grassy knoll who suddenly turned,ran to the top of the flight and disappeared towards the car park. An interesting shape which is visible in the Nix movie further along beside the pergola doorway vaguely appeared to be that of a man standing in military fashion aiming a rifle though this has now been identified as reflections. Behind the shape is a white car parked in an odd place which other films catch sight of pulling away about a minute after the shooting subsides.
This movie does not have the clarity other films possess,unfortunately, and intensive scrutiny has failed to yield anything more positive from the footage."


I dispute Smith's claim that the man 'disappeared towards the car park'. It seems evident that the man turned,ran,turned round and stopped. Nix does not show him 'disappearing'.


Your view that the mist or spray of blood is an illusion I fear is incorrect.
The colour of the grass in my version may indeed emphasize the redness of the mist but there is no doubt that what we see at the moment of the bullet's impact is indeed blood spattering in globular mist mode.

I would appreciate if you could send me your copy of the Nix movie by e mail if possible.

My e mail is: yevgeny@fsmail.net



EBC

#13 Larry Peters

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 03:43 PM

I dispute Smith's claim that the man 'disappeared towards the car park'. It seems evident that the man turned,ran,turned round and stopped. Nix does not show him 'disappearing'.

Your view that the mist or spray of blood is an illusion I fear is incorrect.
The colour of the grass in my version may indeed emphasize the redness of the  mist but there is no doubt that what we see at the moment of the bullet's impact is indeed  blood spattering in globular mist mode.

I would appreciate if you could send me your copy of the Nix movie by e mail if possible.

My e mail is:    yevgeny@fsmail.net
EBC


Are you sure that you are looking at the right man? The short clip below shows the man who stood next to Emmett Hudson and when he turned and fled up the steps. The man in the red shirt started up the steps and stopped and turn to look back at the limo just before reaching Hudson. (see the first attachment)

I am puzzled by your remark about seeing a mist cloud from an impact of a bullet at the point you have referenced on the Nix film. To first tell if it is blood mist that you are seeing, you should have the background color corrected. I can't send you my version because the file I have is over 21MB and it will not email. However, there is a DVD out there called "JFK: Breaking the News" that has a print of the Nix film with the better color quality. A search on Amazon.com may producewhere to order it.

The other problem I see that you have is that the frame where you see what you think is a mist cloud just happens to equate with Z330. Nowhere on the Zapruder film at that point do you see JFK's head exploding a second time, nor will you see a mist cloud in frame Z330. That alone should tell you that what you think you see on the poor quality Nix copy cannot be a blood mist cloud. (see attachments two and three)

Edited by Larry Peters, 04 August 2004 - 01:31 PM.


#14 Guest_Rasp_*

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Posted 04 August 2004 - 09:51 AM

Dear Larry,

Thank you for thumbnails. I think the problem here is that I have poor qualities of the Nix film.

Thank you for your input and putting me right on these matters. As regards the 'running man'
I shall follow your advice and have a closer look.
No problem as regards the e mail file. 21 Mb is a big file and would probably take me several days to download on my computer! Btw the Nix film I am using is only
3 Mb approx - perhaps this is why the quality is so poor.


Thanks again!



EBC

#15 John Geraghty

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 07:45 PM

I came across this video on youtube of a possible shooter in the Nix film.
I gather that this documentary is reasonably old. Does anyone know how accurate the work of this French technician is?




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