Bill Turner

[William Kelly]

I recently came across a audio tape recording of an early 1990s COPA conference in which Bill Turner encompases what we know happened at Dealey Plaza when he says:

"We know to a fairly good degre of certitude what happened. First of all the motives were piling up. JFK has supposidly withheld air cover during the Bay of Pigs. Motive number one. JFK failed to invade Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis in October, 1962. Motive number two. JFK promised to withdraw from Vietnam. Motive number three. JFK, at the time he was assassinated, was on a second track, where he was secretely carring on negotiations with Cuba to bring about detante. Motive number four. These motives were piling up to the point they had to assassinate him."

"And I think it's very obvioius, with the compliations of the information that we have today, that the whole thing, the mechanism of it came out of the allegance between the CIA and the web of Cuban exiles and the mafia. They already had an assassinations apparatus set up for Castro; they switched targets, and they hit Kennedy instead."

The idea that the assassination mechanism used to kill President Kennedy was pre-established and targeted Castro, and then switched to kill Kennedy can be refined even further, and the exact plan to kill Castro that was used to kill Kennedy can be identified, as well as those behind it. - BK

[Ron Ecker]

Sounds like a good summary. But I think the motives of Lyndon Johnson need to be factored in. He had two motives, one being his ruthless lust for power, the other being the urgent need to stay out of prison. And he would be the man in position as president to assure the crime was covered up. I would say he either initiated the plot (as E. Howard Hunt alleged), or gave the green light for it.

[Gil Jesus]

Sounds like a good summary. But I think the motives of Lyndon Johnson need to be factored in. He had two motives, one being his ruthless lust for power, the other being the urgent need to stay out of prison. And he would be the man in position as president to assure the crime was covered up. I would say he either initiated the plot (as E. Howard Hunt alleged), or gave the green light for it.

You both make some great observations.

Johnson kept saying publicly that he wouldn't take the VP spot if offered. I believe that that was the case until Hoover got hold of Kennedy's medical records that indicated that his doctors opinion was that he would not live past the age of 45. (May 1962 ) Once Johnson got to see those records, his mind changed very quickly.

He told someone, "I'm a gambling man, darlin' and this might be the only way I ever get to the White House". ( to succeed a President who died of natural causes )

His campaign manager, John Connally, leaked to the press that JFK was a very sick man, without of course saying where he got his information from.

In addition, Joe Kennedy was pressuring his son to offer the second spot to Johnson because JFK was very weak in the primaries in the South. Kennedy saw no harm in making the offer to Johnson because he believed Johnson would refuse it.

But when Johnson accepted the offer, all hell broke loose. Bobby in particular went to Johnson's suite to tell him that the offer had been rescinded. Johnson then called JFK and threatened to release Kennedy's medical records, showing that the Kennedy campaign had publicly lied when it denied that JFK had Addison's Disease. JFK backed off, telling Johnson to ignore what Bobby said and that RFK "was out of the loop".

Johnson was now on the ticket.

But May 1962 did not bring the death of JFK. Instead, there was a gala birthday party at Madison Square Garden to celebrate the President's STILL BEING ALIVE, highlighted by the singing of "Happy Birthday to You" by Marilyn Monroe.

In what must have seen to be a cruel twist of fate, it was Johnson who was now "out of the loop". His opinions were asked for less and less by the Kennedys. He was being phased out of all major policy input. He was nearly invisible. "Where's Lyndon?" his constituents were asking back in Texas.

In addition, RFK's justice department was tightening the noose around Johnson's neck with the investigations of Johnson cronies Billie Sol Estes and Bobby Baker. At the time of JFK's murder, Maryland insurance man Don Reynolds was supplying members of Congress with documentation of Johnson's extortion and racketeering.

Time had been running out for Johnson.

In addition, as Mr. Kelly points out in his above posting, Kennedy's policies had run afoul of the CIA, the anti-Castro Cubans and the right-wing extremists who made Dallas, Texas their home.

Add to that montage of anti-Kennedy resentment, some members of the Secret Service, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, J.Edgar Hoover and the Dallas authorities, and you have not only a group of people who preferred Lyndon Johnson as President, but people who controlled where and when the President appeared and decided how much protection he would have.

Kennedy was warned not to come to Texas or "they" would kill him. Who was "they", Oswald?

Not hardly, my friends.

Kennedy was LURED to Texas with the "testimonial" dinner for Rep. Albert Thomas. ( You remember him, the congressman who was contemplating retiring becuase of cancer--the same man who "winked" at LBJ aboard Air Force 1 in that famous photo, and who had a sudden change of heart and ended up NOT retiring after the assassination).

Does anyone know that Connally first wanted the trip to take place in August, at Johnson's BIRTHDAY ?

What a wonderful birthday present to be handed the one thing LBJ ever wanted, the Presidency !!!!

But nah, that was too obvious, so it was planned for November.

Anyways, great observations, guys, I'll stop yammering now.

Peace.

[Duke Lane]

I recently came across a audio tape recording of an early 1990s COPA conference in which Bill Turner encompases what we know happened at Dealey Plaza when he says:

"We know to a fairly good degre of certitude what happened. First of all the motives were piling up. JFK has supposidly withheld air cover during the Bay of Pigs. Motive number one. JFK failed to invade Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis in October, 1962. Motive number two. JFK promised to withdraw from Vietnam. Motive number three. JFK, at the time he was assassinated, was on a second track, where he was secretely carring on negotiations with Cuba to bring about detante. Motive number four. These motives were piling up to the point they had to assassinate him."

"And I think it's very obvioius, with the compliations of the information that we have today, that the whole thing, the mechanism of it came out of the allegance between the CIA and the web of Cuban exiles and the mafia.

They already had an assassinations apparatus set up for Castro; they switched targets, and they hit Kennedy instead."

The idea that the assassination mechanism used to kill President Kennedy was pre-established and targeted Castro, and then switched to kill Kennedy can be refined even further, and the exact plan to kill Castro that was used to kill Kennedy can be identified, as well as those behind it. - BK

This is exactly the premise behind both Ultimate Sacrifice and Legacy of Secrecy, which dovetail with other things I've often thought and have been working on, and actually have overcome my reticence of any kind of Mafia-did-it theory, which in fairness had mostly only been evolving toward this end all along. Basically, IMHO, Lamar and Thom's works have bridged the gaps of speculation and wrapped things up in a nice, neat, credible package. If they've come short at all, it is only by focusing on the strategic that they've overlooked the tactical: somebody pulled those triggers, and it wasn't anybody in the indices.

Sounds like a good summary. But I think the motives of Lyndon Johnson need to be factored in....

... as I might, too, have thought but for the failure of any snippet of any such thing having been recorded on the WH taping system over five years, which would mean that he was both a consummate actor and never made a slip.

[Ron Ecker]

Sounds like a good summary. But I think the motives of Lyndon Johnson need to be factored in....

... as I might, too, have thought but for the failure of any snippet of any such thing having been recorded on the WH taping system over five years, which would mean that he was both a consummate actor and never made a slip.

Well, there's the taped conversation between him and Hoover in which they clearly talk about JFK being shot from the front, with Connally getting in the way of one bullet. Then they turn around and talk about the good case against Oswald. I wouldn't call this discussion a slip, it's too brazen for that. I would call it simply talking about nailing an obvious patsy.

[Duke Lane]

Well, there's the taped conversation between him and Hoover in which they clearly talk about JFK being shot from the front, with Connally getting in the way of one bullet. Then they turn around and talk about the good case against Oswald. I wouldn't call this discussion a slip, it's too brazen for that. I would call it simply talking about nailing an obvious patsy.

IMO, that speaks more to LBJ's assent to the investigation (or, if you prefer, the cover-up) rather than to his assent to the murder, which is what the previous post suggested ("He had two motives, one being his ruthless lust for power, the other being the urgent need to stay out of prison. And he would be the man in position as president to assure the crime was covered up. I would say he either initiated the plot (as E. Howard Hunt alleged), or gave the green light for it"). There is nothing other than warranted or unwarranted suspicion that LBJ had any motive for the murder of his predecessor in the conversation you're referring to.

As far as motive to assent to a "cover-up," it is Hoover telling Johnson what "the case" was, not the other way around, and not Johnson suggeting to Hoover what Hoover might adopt as a position for the cover-up to succeed. The notion of qui bono is not a basis for determining someone guilty, but merely to consider them a suspect or "person of interest," that is, because a wife gets a murdered husband's insurance settlement is a reason to look at her more closely, but her getting the insurance money is not ipso facto an indicator that she did have him killed.

LBJ falls in the same category as the wife listening to what the investigator is telling her as opposed to being the wife who's suggesting to the cops what to look for and find.

[William Kelly]

Bill Turner: "And I think it's very obvioius, with the compliations of the information that we have today, that the whole thing, the mechanism of it came out of the allegance between the CIA and the web of Cuban exiles and the mafia. They already had an assassinations apparatus set up for Castro; they switched targets, and they hit Kennedy instead."

Bill Kelly: The idea that the assassination mechanism used to kill President Kennedy was pre-established and targeted Castro, and then switched to kill Kennedy can be refined even further, and the exact plan to kill Castro that was used to kill Kennedy can be identified, as well as those behind it.

Duke: This is exactly the premise behind both Ultimate Sacrifice and Legacy of Secrecy, which dovetail with other things I've often thought and have been working on, and actually have overcome my reticence of any kind of Mafia-did-it theory, which in fairness had mostly only been evolving toward this end all along. Basically, IMHO, Lamar and Thom's works have bridged the gaps of speculation and wrapped things up in a nice, neat, credible package.

BK: Yea, it's a shame that Waldron and Kaiser didn't stick around to answer any more questions, as we could have a valuable discussion about these issues.

Except they don't bridge the gaps of speculation but speculate on their own that the mafia "hijacked" a CIA plot to kill Castro and redirected it to JFK.

The mafia, the anti-Castro Cubans and even the CIA are just whipping boys, who were used in the anti-Castro operations, including the plots to kill Castro, but the mafia was Xed out of the plans at a certain point (circa 1962), and the MO - Modus Operandi of the mafia does not include Northwinds style twists, or black propaganda operations. Nor did the mafia have any control over communications or the autopsy. And the top organized crime expert in the USA, brought in by G. Robert Blakey to help boost the mafia scenario, instead concluded the mob was not behind the assassination because the FBI wiretaps would have indicated it.

And both Ultimate Sac and Legacy of Secrecy and Kaiser's Road to Dallas and all of the mob did it books, do not take all the known facts and evidence into consideration and jump to broad conclusions that we can narrow down a lot more specifically. Like EXACTLY WHICH ONE of the plots to kill Castro, whether it was hijacked or not, was used at Dealey Plaza? They say the CIA/mafia plots going back to 59' to 62', when I say you have to look closer, like the Hemingway Plot and the maritime operations of the summer of '62 which are DIRECTLY and CONCRETELY tied to what happened at Dealey Plaza.

If they've come short at all, it is only by focusing on the strategic that they've overlooked the tactical: somebody pulled those triggers, and it wasn't anybody in the indices.

Somebody did pull those triggers, and they knew they were going to get out of there, and that whoever would try to follow them would be swamped in a morass and a blackmailing coup that would never be figured out. Well now that we're close to figuring it out, they want to look closely at the mafia (Trafficante, Marcello, Giancana, Rosselli, Martino, et al), while others at the CIA (FitzGerald, Angleton, Lansdale, Hunt, et al), and pretty much conceed that the anti-Castro Cubans were just trained and hired technicians, not capable of pulling off a coup in USA. And neither were the mafia.

Waldron backs his theory with the Joint Chiefs of Staff records, The Contingency Plans for a Coup in Cuba, but the mafia didn't write contingency plans. I say look closely at those who Waldron says the mafia hijacked the plot from, and you do that by focusing on the few, material plots from the summer of '63, and look at who was planning, approving and directing them from DC - FitzGerald, LeMay, Krulak, Califano, Haig, et al. They didn't need the mafia to hijack their plot, they had all the means and motives to turn the gun around and use the mafia, anti-Castro Cubans and even the CIA as whipping boys.

And you can follow the strategic policy decisions and plans down the line from the board room at the Pentagon to Dealey Plaza and the streets of Oak Cliff, and maybe we'll still be able to id the guy in the white shirt and bald spot in the Sixth Floor window and the man on the grassy knoll.

[Guest Tom Scully]

Well, there's the taped conversation between him and Hoover in which they clearly talk about JFK being shot from the front, with Connally getting in the way of one bullet. Then they turn around and talk about the good case against Oswald. I wouldn't call this discussion a slip, it's too brazen for that. I would call it simply talking about nailing an obvious patsy.

IMO, that speaks more to LBJ's assent to the investigation (or, if you prefer, the cover-up) rather than to his assent to the murder, which is what the previous post suggested ("He had two motives, one being his ruthless lust for power, the other being the urgent need to stay out of prison. And he would be the man in position as president to assure the crime was covered up. I would say he either initiated the plot (as E. Howard Hunt alleged), or gave the green light for it"). There is nothing other than warranted or unwarranted suspicion that LBJ had any motive for the murder of his predecessor in the conversation you're referring to.

As far as motive to assent to a "cover-up," it is Hoover telling Johnson what "the case" was, not the other way around, and not Johnson suggeting to Hoover what Hoover might adopt as a position for the cover-up to succeed. The notion of qui bono is not a basis for determining someone guilty, but merely to consider them a suspect or "person of interest," that is, because a wife gets a murdered husband's insurance settlement is a reason to look at her more closely, but her getting the insurance money is not ipso facto an indicator that she did have him killed.

LBJ falls in the same category as the wife listening to what the investigator is telling her as opposed to being the wife who's suggesting to the cops what to look for and find.

Duke, I think you are underemphasizing LBJ's motives, opportunities, and obvious orchestration of the cover up, with the goal of guaranteeing, to the degree it was possible to do it, with complete complicity of Hoover at FBI, that serious minded volk would readily accept Oswald and Ruby as "LNs".....

The two men who openly benefited the most from JFK's death, confirmed by the sudden suspension of the McClellan TFX contract hearings by December 15, 1963, were LBJ from the political power angle, and Henry Crown from the business stake angle. LBJ was more like the wife who was sleeping with the district attorney at the time of her husband's murder and then used her charms and/or the threat of blackmail to make the DA's investigation of her husband's murder a short, superficial affair before swiftly closing the case.

Don't you wonder what, on the first full day of LBJ's presidency, these two stalwart cold warriors had to talk about, to keep them in each other's company, so late into the evening?

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...mp;pagewanted=5

Clark Clifford, a Major Adviser To Four Presidents, Is Dead at 91

By MARILYN BERGER

Published: Sunday, October 11, 1998

....President Johnson was hardly in office 24 hours when he called for Mr. Clifford. Faced with the sudden and enormous task of running the country after Kennedy's assassination, Johnson talked with Mr. Clifford for two hours, then three, then four. It was late in the evening, Mr. Clifford remembered, when Lady Bird Johnson entered the Oval Office and reminded her husband, ''Just because you're President now doesn't mean you don't have to eat dinner.''

LBJ created a panel to "investigate" the assassination of his predecessor. He chose Earl Warren to chair the panel and appointed as panel commissioners, McCloy, Dulles, Ford, et al, and this clearly connected set of blatant conflicts of interest were a direct result. McCloy positioned Rankin as chief counsel, and Rankin signed off on Warren's choice of General Dynamic's largest stockholder, Henry Crown's own lawyer, Albert E. Jenner Jr. as assistant counsel tasked with investigating whether Oswald and/or Ruby were part of a wider conspiracy. The conflict of interests, confirmed since summer, 2008, included the non-investigation of Jenner's background by FBI's Hoover with the added intrigue of commissioner Ford as his secret informant of the WC's executive committee:

Gerald Ford Told FBI of Skeptics on Warren Commission

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...8080702757.html

Background FBI FOIA released documents on AP web page:

http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives...ford/ford03.PDF

...Ford reported to DeLoach that at a top-secret meeting of the commission held on December 16, 1963 the commission’s general counsel, J.Lee Rankin, had been empowered to retain to "so-called technicians." The two who were under consideration were Francis W.H. Adams, a former New York City police commissioner, and Albert E. Jenner, Jr., a Chicago lawyer. Ford, the documents disclose, could only remember the last names of the two men. The FBI then began an investigation to determine who "Adams" and "Jenner" were....

Hoover had a duty obligation to disclose the IB Hale related surveillance reports to the WC counsel. We can safely assume he withheld it from the WC.

Hoover could have easily found out, to the point that we can assume he knew that Henry Crown's son, John J. Crown, had been a member of Albert Jenner's law firm since 1959, and not only was Jenner the personal attorney of the Crown family but he also represented this division of General Dynamics just weeks before his appointment to the WC:

http://news.google.com/archivesearch?um=1&...nge=1970%2C2009

Stern v. Material Service Corp.,Stern v. Material Service Corp., 194...

Subscription - Appellate Court of Illinois, First... - Fastcase - Oct 23, 1963

Albert E. Jenner, Jr., Benjamin Z. Gould, Kenneth J. Burns, Jr., Chicago, ... [44 Ill.App.2d 200] The plaintiff, Dora Greiver Stern, filed a complaint ...

Hoover knew that because of the McClellan Senate investigation of the TFX contract award to General Dynamics and the Bobby Baker connection, the related forced resignation of Navy Secretary Fred Korth on November 1, 1963, and because of the intelligence gathered by the FBI related to General Dynamics Forth Worth, TX, secuirty chief, IB Hale and his twin sons, intelligence details sent directly to Hoover:

....that, not only was it an outrageous conflict to appoint Jenner as assistant counsel, it boggles the mind that Jenner was assigned to examine sworn WC witnesses employed by General Dynamics:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/conway.htm

Mr. JENNER - Would you mind rising and being sworn. Do you in the testimony you are about to give swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mr. CONWAY - I do.

Mr. JENNER - I am Albert B. Jenner, Jr. I am a member of the legal staff of the Warren Commission about which you have heard. The Warren Commission was authorized by a Senate Joint resolution of the Congress of the United States to be created to investigate the circumstances leading to and surrounding the assassination of our late President John Fitzgerald Kennedy. Pursuant to that legislation President Lyndon B. Johnson by Executive Order 11130, November 1963, appointed the Commission to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy. The Chief Justice of the United States, the Honorable Earl Warren is the Chairman of that Commission and the Commission has come be known as the Warren Commission.

The Commission is charged with sifting out the facts from fiction and inquire into many, many details, one of which deals with a man whose name is Lee Harvey Oswald, during his lifetime. We understand you had some contact with a man by that name?

Mr. CONWAY - Yes.

Mr. JENNER - And we want to ask you a few questions about it.

Mr. CONWAY - I will be glad to answer them.

Mr. JENNER - All right.. Mr. Conway, you are Hiram Conway and you are native Texan, are you?

Mr. CONWAY - Yes.

Mr. JENNER - What is your age?

Mr. CONWAY - I'm 57, will be 58 next month.

Mr. JENNER - I will be 57 next June. You reside in Fort Worth, Tex.?

Mr. CONWAY - Yes.

Mr. JENNER - And your business, occupation, or profession is what?

Mr. CONWAY - Tool inspector for General Dynamics.

Mr. JENNER - The General Dynamics Corp.?........

Edited March 17, 2009 by Tom Scully

[Greg Parker]

As far as motive to assent to a "cover-up," it is Hoover telling Johnson what "the case" was, not the other way around, and not Johnson suggeting to Hoover what Hoover might adopt as a position for the cover-up to succeed. The notion of qui bono is not a basis for determining someone guilty, but merely to consider them a suspect or "person of interest," that is, because a wife gets a murdered husband's insurance settlement is a reason to look at her more closely, but her getting the insurance money is not ipso facto an indicator that she did have him killed.

LBJ falls in the same category as the wife listening to what the investigator is telling her as opposed to being the wife who's suggesting to the cops what to look for and find.

Yes, Duke. It was a neat trick of his to get others to make the suggestions he didn't want "ownership" of. One good example was his "phone a friend" efforts to get someone to suggest he be sworn in as Prez... NOW!!!. He then apparently later lied about who thought it should be done on the plane.

Make no mistake, when LBJ wanted to assume the wifely position, he could - and did.

Edited March 17, 2009 by Greg Parker

[Pat Speer]

Good info, Tom. Even more interesting when you take into account that Hale's son--the very one caught spying on Campbell--was John Connally's son-in-law. Or rather, former son-in-law. Seems something pushed his daughter over the edge, and she ended her life.

[William Kelly]

Good info, Tom. Even more interesting when you take into account that Hale's son--the very one caught spying on Campbell--was John Connally's son-in-law. Or rather, former son-in-law. Seems something pushed his daughter over the edge, and she ended her life.

Sly Hersh's take:

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:cVxh8SazpVMJ:findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3720/is_199711/ai_n8778577+I.+B.+Hale&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

The uncensored FBI reports and cables on the August break-in at Exner's Los Angeles apartment, made available for the book under the Freedom of Information Act, were urgently forwarded, in code, to J. Edgar Hoover. An FBI summary from the Los Angeles bureau, dated August 17, 1962, told Hoover something he already knew, even if some of his California agents didn't realize it. The summary described Exner as being in contact with Giancana and Rosselli and with Evelyn Lincoln. It also told Hoover something he didn't know; the Hale family and General Dynamics were linked to the break-in. "A man answering the description of the individual who entered (Exner's) apartment was observed leaving the area in an automobile registered to former Special Agent I.B. Hale who resides in Fort Worth, Texas," the summary said. "Our Dallas office has advised that. . . Hale is employed at General Dynamics. . . in charge of security." The summary noted that the crime its agents witnessed "is not being disseminated to the Los Angeles Police Department at this time."

More Articles of Interest one FBI cable to Hoover, dated August 14 and marked "urgent" summarized I.B. Hale's association with the FBI and depicted him as "cooperative" in the past with Dallas agents. Hale, a prewar football star at Texas Christian University, was described as "well known in Fort Worth and . . . active in many community affairs. It is the opinion of (the FBI bureau in) Dallas (that) any additional inquiry" by the FBI into the Los Angeles break-in "would come to Hale's attention. It is also the opinion of Dallas that Hale would be completely cooperative in any interview. However, in view of the sensitive nature of Los Angeles investigation, no additional action (is) being taken in Dallas." In other words, the FBI bureau in Los Angeles was more interested in keeping up its surveillance on Judith Exner's apartment than in prosecuting a crime or trying to find out what I.B. Hale and his sons were doing there The break-in at Exner's apartment was never investigated by the FBI, nor did it evoke a sudden rush of curiosity that fall, when the Kennedy administration's surprise selection of General Dynamics to build the TFX triggered outcries in the press and the Congress. What happened was not a cover-up, but something much more mundane. I.B. Hale, as a prominent college football star, had been one of Hoover's favorites while he was in the FBI; it would be almost reflexive for his former colleagues to find some reason not to investigate him. Most important, Judith Exner's relationship with the president and the FBI's surveillance of her were deemed state secrets that had to be kept, even if crimes were ignored in the process.

And more details of a really unbelievable story:

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/20076/robert-hale-2

Where I think this all comes together is not with the CIA/Mafia plots in 1962, but the relationship between Max Clark, I.B. Hale at Gen. Dynamics, and Roswell Gilpatrick, who was a former GD attorney (I think) before moving to DC and becoming entwined with Bundy, FitzGerald and the Joint Chiefs on the Contingency Plans for Cuba in 1963.

Gilpatrick is the guy who read the letter on security on the Cuban operations from Bundy to the JCS, the letter that was read orally to the Joint Chiefs and no record apparently kept of it.

If I.B. Hale wasn't in the motorcade, I would think him to be a sniper suspect.

Apparently he was in the car with SS agent Barrett.

BK

Edited March 17, 2009 by William Kelly

[John Simkin]

I recently came across a audio tape recording of an early 1990s COPA conference in which Bill Turner encompases what we know happened at Dealey Plaza when he says:

"We know to a fairly good degre of certitude what happened. First of all the motives were piling up. JFK has supposidly withheld air cover during the Bay of Pigs. Motive number one. JFK failed to invade Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis in October, 1962. Motive number two. JFK promised to withdraw from Vietnam. Motive number three. JFK, at the time he was assassinated, was on a second track, where he was secretely carring on negotiations with Cuba to bring about detante. Motive number four. These motives were piling up to the point they had to assassinate him."

"And I think it's very obvioius, with the compliations of the information that we have today, that the whole thing, the mechanism of it came out of the allegance between the CIA and the web of Cuban exiles and the mafia. They already had an assassinations apparatus set up for Castro; they switched targets, and they hit Kennedy instead."

The idea that the assassination mechanism used to kill President Kennedy was pre-established and targeted Castro, and then switched to kill Kennedy can be refined even further, and the exact plan to kill Castro that was used to kill Kennedy can be identified, as well as those behind it. - BK

This is also the same story that Gene Wheaton told the Assassination Records Review Board in 1995. Anne Buttimer, Chief Investigator of the ARRB, recorded that: "Wheaton told me that from 1984 to 1987 he spent a lot of time in the Washington DC area and that starting in 1985 he was "recruited into Ollie North's network" by the CIA officer he has information about. He got to know this man and his wife, a "'super grade high level CIA officer" and kept a bedroom in their Virginia home. His friend was a Marine Corps liaison in New Orleans and was the CIA contact with Carlos Marcello. He had been responsible for "running people into Cuba before the Bay of Pigs." His friend is now 68 or 69 years of age... Over the course of a year or a year and one-half his friend told him about his activities with training Cuban insurgency groups. Wheaton said he also got to know many of the Cubans who had been his friend's soldiers/operatives when the Cubans visited in Virginia from their homes in Miami. His friend and the Cubans confirmed to Wheaton they assassinated JFK. Wheaton's friend said he trained the Cubans who pulled the triggers. Wheaton said the street level Cubans felt JFK was a traitor after the Bay of Pigs and wanted to kill him. People "above the Cubans" wanted JFK killed for other reasons." It was later revealed that Wheaton's friend was CIA officer Carl E. Jenkins. Wheaton also named Chi Chi Quintero and Irving Davidson as being involved in the assassination.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKwheaton.htm

[Guest Tom Scully]

Bill Kelly,

You have insisted in prior posts (on other threads) that the assassination and subsequent cover up of the plot to kill JFK not be a political discusssion, but the problem I see with that is the high probability that the cover up can only be explained by the motivation of rigid political beliefs. Beliefs which JFK made the judgment, in hindsight, to step outside of, with the consequence that he was murdered in the interests of national security, by the same US "complex", dominating the "one party" with two right wings, political landscape we experience to this day.

Clark Clifford, on the day after Kennedy was killed, had no problem spending the entire evening in a one on one with LBJ in the white house, because there is a high probability that both men, and everyone else who mattered in Washington, with the exception of RFK, had no qualms about killing JFK and covering it up. How else can Hoover's revelation that the FBI exempted right wing groups in Dallas from scrutiny, and had no inclination to commit to an actual investigation of JFK's murder, in the interest of national security, be understood, or have been accepted by virtually all other officials?

JFK had surrounded himself with "the best and the brightest", as Ferdinand Lundberg described it, "Republicans from the camp of big wealth".

Isn't it implausible that none who were close to JFK, found anything amiss in LBJ's creation of and appointments to the WC, or of it's "findings", in all of the rest of the days of their lives, given what we have wrested from government archives and from the work of citizen sleuths, accelerated by the emergence of the internet and by the releases of the AARB ?

The main argument of the LN status quo is that "Someone would have talked". The patriotic flavored, "fascist lite", corporatist "one party system", holds the same grip on our current, extreme right, politically influenced military, foreign, and editorial policy, NOW, as then.

It wouldn't have occurred to these very serious officials to "talK", or to the editors of the mainstream press to assign journalists to question, in 1964, or in the years that followed, just as they are not inclined to, even now!

There is no political opposition now, and there wasn't any then. All serious minded officials march in lockstep, because of unquestioning loyalty to the script, or because they want to live to spend more time with their families.....

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/200...umer/index.html

Wednesday March 11, 2009 07:49 EDT

The agenda of Chuck Schumer

Charles Freeman fails the loyalty test

Under attack for his insufficient devotion to Israel, the long-time diplomat's appointment is withdrawn.

....Freeman's most important point in his statement is this one:

I believe that the inability of the American public to discuss, or the government to consider, any option for US policies in the Middle East opposed by the ruling faction in Israeli politics has allowed that faction to adopt and sustain policies that ultimately threaten the existence of the state of Israel. It is not permitted for anyone in the United States to say so. This is not just a tragedy for Israelis and their neighbors in the Middle East; it is doing widening damage to the national security of the United States.

Barack Obama should take note. The thugs have taken out Chas Freeman. They will not rest. Their real target is you, Mr. President.

The real goal, as always, was to ensure that there is no debate over America's indescribably self-destructive, blind support for Israeli actions. Freeman critics may have scored a short-term victory in that regard, but the more obvious it becomes what is really driving these scandals, the more difficult it will be to maintain this suffocating control over American debates and American policy.....

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/200...rcus/index.html

Wednesday March 11, 2009 09:23 EDT

The mission of the Beltway journalist

....Today, The Washington Post's Ruth Marcus provides as pure an example of this warped "journalistic" mentality as one can imagine:

"On the legal issues entwined in the war on terrorism, Obama is, again wisely, proceeding more slowly than many civil libertarians demand. Guantanamo will be closed -- eventually. Military commissions have been halted, torture policies renounced and secret memorandums released."

Yet the Obama Justice Department backstopped the Bush Justice Department's assertion of the state secrets privilege to block lawsuits challenging wiretapping and extraordinary rendition. The administration argued that prisoners in Afghanistan cannot challenge their detention in court. It leaned on the British government to keep evidence of alleged torture secret.

Look at what Marcus is cheering for in that second paragraph, what she considers to be good things: Preventing judicial scrutiny of illegal government spying and kidnapping programs. Abducting people with no due process, shipping them off to Afghanistan, and then locking them up for years with no rights of any kind. Purposely concealing -- keeping secret -- evidence of massive government torture programs. These are the extreme secrecy and suppression efforts that this "journalist" favors.

Imagine if you walked into a random class in a journalism school and asked one of the students why they enrolled in journalism school, and they replied this way:

I want to become a journalist so that I can help the Government conceal its secrets. Especially when high political officials break the law, I think it's really important that nobody find out about it. In particular, I think it's crucial that victims of government torture and illegal spying be prevented from uncovering what was done and imposing accountability on our Government leaders. And the most important thing is that when government leaders break the law, they not be investigated.

So I want to go into journalism in order to do what I can to help the Government suppress the truth, avoid exposure, and evade accountability -- because I think the key role of journalists is to do everything possible to enable the most powerful political leaders to hide what they've done from the public. That's what I see as the most important function a journalist can serve.

That's Ruth Marcus. That's exactly what she's saying here. She's actually praising the Obama administration for "lean[ing] on the British government to keep evidence of alleged torture secret." In fact, it's most of our press corps saying the same thing. Protection of and servitude to political power and the maintenance of government secrets is their driving religion.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/200...bama/index.html

Larry Summers, Sunday, on AIG’s payment of executive bonuses:

We are a country of law. There are contracts. The government cannot just abrogate contracts. Every legal step possible to limit those bonuses is being taken by Secretary Geithner and by the Federal Reserve system.

Associated Press, February 18, 2009:

The United Auto Workers’ deal with Detroit’s three automakers limits overtime, changes work rules, cuts lump-sum cash bonuses and gets rid of cost-of-living pay raises to help reduce the companies’ labor costs, people briefed on the agreement said today.

The UAW announced Tuesday that it reached the tentative agreement with General Motors Corp., Chrysler LLC and Ford Motor Co. over contract concessions, as GM and Chrysler sent plans to the Treasury Department asking for a total of $39 billion in government financing to help them survive.

Concessions with the union are a condition of the $17.4 billion in government loans that the automakers have received so far.

Apparently, the supreme sanctity of employment contracts applies only to some types of employees but not others. Either way, the Obama administration’s claim that nothing could be done about the AIG bonuses because AIG has solid, sacred contractual commitments to pay them is, for so many reasons, absurd on its face.

On a related note, could someone please reconcile Larry Summers' emphatic declaration that "we are a country of laws" with this:

To use Larry Summer's eloquent phrase (perversely deployed to justify the AIG bonus payments): if "we are a country of law," we would probably do something about these severe violations of law that are right in front of our faces, particularly since we all know exactly who the lawbreakers are.

Apparently, this "we are a country of law" concept means that hundreds of millions of dollars in taxpayer money must be transferred to the AIG executives who virtually destroyed the financial system, but it does not mean that something must be done when high government officials get caught plainly breaking the law. What an oddly selective application of the "rule of law" this is....

Edited March 17, 2009 by Tom Scully

[Guest Tom Scully]

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Well, there's the taped conversation between him and Hoover in which they clearly talk about JFK being shot from the front, with Connally getting in the way of one bullet. Then they turn around and talk about the good case against Oswald. I wouldn't call this discussion a slip, it's too brazen for that. I would call it simply talking about nailing an obvious patsy.

IMO, that speaks more to LBJ's assent to the investigation (or, if you prefer, the cover-up) rather than to his assent to the murder, which is what the previous post suggested ("He had two motives, one being his ruthless lust for power, the other being the urgent need to stay out of prison. And he would be the man in position as president to assure the crime was covered up. I would say he either initiated the plot (as E. Howard Hunt alleged), or gave the green light for it"). There is nothing other than warranted or unwarranted suspicion that LBJ had any motive for the murder of his predecessor in the conversation you're referring to.

As far as motive to assent to a "cover-up," it is Hoover telling Johnson what "the case" was, not the other way around, and not Johnson suggeting to Hoover what Hoover might adopt as a position for the cover-up to succeed. The notion of qui bono is not a basis for determining someone guilty, but merely to consider them a suspect or "person of interest," that is, because a wife gets a murdered husband's insurance settlement is a reason to look at her more closely, but her getting the insurance money is not ipso facto an indicator that she did have him killed.

LBJ falls in the same category as the wife listening to what the investigator is telling her as opposed to being the wife who's suggesting to the cops what to look for and find.

Duke, I think you are underemphasizing LBJ's motives, opportunities, and obvious orchestration of the cover up, with the goal of guaranteeing, to the degree it was possible to do it, with complete complicity of Hoover at FBI, that serious minded volk would readily accept Oswald and Ruby as "LNs".....

The two men who openly benefited the most from JFK's death, confirmed by the sudden suspension of the McClellan TFX contract hearings by December 15, 1963, were LBJ from the political power angle, and Henry Crown from the business stake angle. LBJ was more like the wife who was sleeping with the district attorney at the time of her husband's murder and then used her charms and/or the threat of blackmail to make the DA's investigation of her husband's murder a short, superficial affair before swiftly closing the case....

....Hoover had a duty obligation to disclose the IB Hale related surveillance reports to the WC counsel. We can safely assume he withheld it from the WC.

Hoover could have easily found out, to the point that we can assume he knew that Henry Crown's son, John J. Crown, had been a member of Albert Jenner's law firm since 1959, and not only was Jenner the personal attorney of the Crown family but he also represented this division of General Dynamics just weeks before his appointment to the WC:

http://news.google.com/archivesearch?um=1&...nge=1970%2C2009

Stern v. Material Service Corp.,Stern v. Material Service Corp., 194...

Subscription - Appellate Court of Illinois, First... - Fastcase - Oct 23, 1963

Albert E. Jenner, Jr., Benjamin Z. Gould, Kenneth J. Burns, Jr., Chicago, ... [44 Ill.App.2d 200] The plaintiff, Dora Greiver Stern, filed a complaint ...

Hoover knew that because of the McClellan Senate investigation of the TFX contract award to General Dynamics and the Bobby Baker connection, the related forced resignation of Navy Secretary Fred Korth on November 1, 1963, and because of the intelligence gathered by the FBI related to General Dynamics Forth Worth, TX, secuirty chief, IB Hale and his twin sons, intelligence details sent directly to Hoover:

....that, not only was it an outrageous conflict to appoint Jenner as assistant counsel, it boggles the mind that Jenner was assigned to examine sworn WC witnesses employed by General Dynamics:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/conway.htm

Mr. JENNER - Would you mind rising and being sworn. Do you in the testimony you are about to give swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mr. CONWAY - I do....

...Mr. JENNER - And your business, occupation, or profession is what?

Mr. CONWAY - Tool inspector for General Dynamics.

Mr. JENNER - The General Dynamics Corp.?........

It's a shame how many trees had to die to put the conclusions.of Posner and "the Bug" to print, so conveniently in lockstep with those in the WC Report.

As I presented in my prior post on this thread, partially reposted above, and in posts on other threads, there is a pattern pf cover up, omission, and "tweaking" of the make up of the staff of the Warren Commission by government officials like J. Edgar Hoover and Earl Warren, in complicity with "folks" associated with General Dynamics that seems blatant to me.

In addition to the examples quoted above, excerpted from an earlier post on this thread, Hoover and his FBI conveniently omitted other information, which seems by it's omission to magnify the suspicion of a conspiracy, involving the FBI's former SA IB Hale, employed by General Dynamics in a role of chief of it's industrial security in 1963.

Observe how the details in this article posted by Bill Kelly on the "Patrick Hoy" thread mesh with a name and street address displayed in this document which the DOJ, the FBI, and the WC left unqualified as one of the WC Report's exhibits, even more troubling because it was related to how Oswald was said to have been introduced to Max Clark, yet another General Dynamics security person, and to his White Russian wife.:

...Born Insall Bailey Hale, September 9, 1916, in Elmont, Texas, IB Hale devoted his life to the professionalism of the industry through his activities in ASIS, his career with the FBI, and in his capacity as Manager of Industrial Security with General Dynamics, Forth Worth Division...

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/20076/robert-hale-2

Robert “Bobby” Hale, the Scripture-quoting “Papa Pilgrim” who used the Bible to pound subservience into his 15 children, went before a judge in Alaska last month, looking old and frail beyond his 66 years as he learned his punishment — 14 years behind bars — for sexually assaulting one of his daughters.

Prison time is only the latest chapter in the bizarre life of Hale, the son of a legendary TCU football player. He grew up in the west Fort Worth neighborhood of Ridglea Hills, attended Arlington Heights High School and, at age 18, eloped with the 16-year-old daughter of one of the most powerful and famous politicians in Texas history....

...Young wife’s death

Hale was a senior at Arlington Heights High when he eloped with his girlfriend, Kathleen Connally, a junior. They married in Ardmore, Okla., moved into a modest apartment in Tallahassee, Fla., and began a marriage of young hope.

It would last just over a month.

Kathleen Connally Hale died April 28, 1959, from a shotgun blast behind her right ear. She was pregnant. Her husband spent the next night in jail, a Star-Telegram report said at the time. But the death was later ruled an accident, caused when the gun discharged as Hale tried to take it from his wife.

Described as incoherent in the hours after his wife’s death, Hale was said to have later passed a lie-detector test, and his fingerprints were not found on the gun, despite the report that he had grabbed for it. So, authorities determined, Kathleen died during “a little squabble like kids will have.”

It meant an end to Hale’s brief role as son-in-law to John Connally, then a confidant to Sen. Lyndon Baines Johnson and an attorney for Fort Worth millionaires Sid Richardson and Perry Bass. John Connally later became governor of Texas and was wounded in the assassination of President Kennedy.

Connally, who died in 1993, wrote in his autobiography that he had been told that there may have been a suicide pact between his firstborn child and her new husband, and that “Bobby backed out.”

“I could not shake my doubts that Kathleen would never have taken her own life if her young husband had been … kind and considerate to her in the dark moments she must have experienced,” Connally wrote. As he searched for answers, he said he was troubled by what his daughter’s landlady in Tallahassee told him: “She said she thought Kathleen was afraid — of what, she did not know.”

She would not be the last 16-year-old Hale would take as a companion. His future wife and the mother of the 15 children on Hillbilly Heaven ranch was reportedly the same age when Hale courted her in the 1970s.

All-American’s family

More than 3,500 miles and a world of difference separate the primitive ranch in Alaska — where Papa Pilgrim held court over his flock — and the home on tree-lined Fortune Road in west Fort Worth where Bobby Hale grew up with his twin brother, Billy, and younger brother, Tommy.

Their mother, Virginia, was an accomplished bridge player. Their father, I.B. Hale, was an All-American lineman for the Texas Christian University Horned Frogs football team and its captain during the team’s undefeated national championship season in 1938. He was a good friend and college roommate of another famous TCU player, Davey O’Brien....

http://www.asisphoenix.org/id29.html

On the library shelf, next to Larry Hancock's book titled "Someone Would Have Talked" should be another book titled, "Uncorrupted WC Investigators Would Have Been Curious Investigators."

[PDF]Warren Commission, Volume XXII: CE 1389 - FBI report dated May 19 ...

File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View

On May 13, 1964, Mrs. VIRGINIA 13ALS, 6475 Fortune Road, ... Mrs . HALE stated she did not give the names of MAX CLARK or PETER GREGORY ...

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...H22_CE_1389.pdf

Edited January 26, 2010 by Tom Scully

[Guest Tom Scully]

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aunofficial&tbs=nws%3A1%2Car%3A1&q=Joe+Kingsbery+Jr+and+Belle+Birge&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=m1&aql=&oq=

IN ATLANTA'S SOCIAL REALM NEWS OF INTEREST TO WOMEN

‎

Pay-Per-View - Atlanta Constitution - Mar 15, 1914

A wedding that will be of interest to the social elite of Fort Worth and north Texas alike is that of Miss Belle Birge, of Sherman, and Joe Kingsbery, Jr., ...

Fort Worth Star-Telegram : OBITUARIES

‎

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aunofficial&tbs=nws%3A1%2Car%3A1&q=kingsbery+%22*She+was+preceded+in+death+by+her+parents+Joe+Kingsbery+Jr%22&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=

$2.95 - Fort Worth Star-Telegram - Feb 2, 1997

HOUSTON KathrynKay Kingsbery Martin formerly Mrs Walt Martin 76 died Jan 18 ...

She was preceded in death by her parents Joe Kingsbery Jr and Belle Birge Kingsbery and by her sister Virginia Kingsbery Hale and by her beloved grandmother ...

http://www.obitcentral.com/obitsearch/obits/tx/tx-tarrant127.htm

Kathryn K. Martin

HOUSTON -- Kathryn (Kay) Kingsbery Martin, formerly Mrs. Walt Martin, 76, died Jan. 18, 1997, following a 10- year battle with Alzheimer's Disease.

Graveside service:11 a.m. Saturday in West Hill Cemetery.

Memorials: For those desiring, contributions may be made to The Alzheimer's Association, 6161 Savoy Dr., Suite 240, Houston, TX 77036; or to a charity of choice.

A native of Fort Worth, she later lived in Midland before moving to Wichita Falls. She resided there for 30 years beford moving to Houston in 1990. She graduated from both Paschal High School and Texas Christian University in Fort Worth, and she was lifetime member of The Assembly. Years later at Medwestern State University, she did graduate work in special education and learning disabilities. She lovingly taught second grade and later special education in the Wichita Falls School District for 25 yeears. She belonged to Good Shepherd Episcopal Church.

She was a talented artist, whether designing and executing her own needlepoint patterns, copper enameling or painting. She loved to read and instilled that love in her own children as well as her students. She loved "yard work" and dancing, ballroom, square, etc.

She was preceded in death by her parents, Joe Kingsbery Jr. and Belle Birge Kingsbery, and by her sister, Virginia Kingsbery Hale and by her beloved grandmother, Virginia Ellison "Mother Jane" Birge.

The family gratefully acknowledges the loving care given by the staff at Woodwind Lakes and by Vitas Hospice in Houston.

Special thanks to her good friend, Mrs. Jim "Frances" Blanke for her continued support and care.

Survivors: Daughter and son-in-law, Monica Martin Dawson and George Dawson Jr. of Houston; son and daughter-in-law, James (Jim) K. Martin, DDS, and Sandra Martin; and grandsons, Kyle and Andrew Martin of Dallas; nephews, Bobby and Billy Hale of New Mexico, and Tom Hale and wife, Pat of Fort Worth; cousins, Mrs. Pauline Kimbrough of Sherman and Joe Bartlett of Florida. Dannel Funeral Home

http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/k/i/n/Kenneth-J-Kingsbury-TX/ODT7-0078.html

23 Joseph Kingsbery 1881 -

+Belle Birge 1890 -

.................. 24 Joseph Kingsbery 1915 - 1915

.................. 24 Virginia Kingsbery 1916 -

+Insall B. Hale 1916 -

..................... 25 William K. Hale 1941 -

..................... 25 Robert Allan Hale 1941 -

..................... 25 Thomas George Hale 1948 -

(Above info took two years to find. Anybody who found LHO a job and had a son investigated in the shooting death of Gov. Connally's daughter, and in a burglary of Judith Campbell Exner's LA apartment, is worth looking closely at, especially since the FBI withheld all of the background of these odd "coincidences" from the WC. )

Early thread referring to IB Hale.:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2868&st=0

Kilgore High School yearbook photo of athletic director IB Hale, circa fall, 1940. Hale resigned from this position about 30 November, to join the FBI.

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/courant/access/862797912.html?dids=862797912:862797912&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:AI&type=historic&date=Dec+24%2C+1941&author=&pub=Hartford+Courant&desc=Scores+Of+FBI+Agents+Former+Football+Stars&pqatl=google

Scores Of FBI Agents Former Football Stars

Davey O'Brien, of Texas Christian, John Kelly, of Notre Dame and Don Irwin, of Colgate, Among Men Working Under J. Edgar Hoover

The Hartford Courant Hartford, Conn.

Date: Dec 24, 1941

Washington, Dec. 23. -- (Wide World.)--Hundreds of boys who used to carry the ball for alma mater are doing it now for Uncle Sam in a grim game of spy and counter-spy played largely behind the scenes....

The first paragraph of the text to the right of Hale's image reads.:

Kilgore High School lost a mighty fine man when

Head Coach I.B. Hale (left) decided to join the

Federal Bureau of Investigation. A hero to his own

charges, he was equally admired and liked by the

people of Kilgore and surrounding cities. The school

authorities chose wisely in placing Coach R.E. St.

John in the position of Head Coach....

Edited March 22, 2011 by Tom Scully