Judyth Baker

[Bill Byas]

Could someone tell me very briefly what evidnce there is for and agaist Judyth Baker?

Please-just facts, not opinions.

Bill Byas

[Wim Dankbaar]

Start with this and let me know when you want to have more:

There are still people who deny Judyth was a cancer researcher. There is even a %4#@ who claims she did not live in New Orleans at the time, because he believes his own lies that "she got the streets wrong".

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[Pamela Brown]

"Could someone tell me very briefly what evidnce there is for and agaist Judyth Baker?" (Bill Byas)

I see that Wim has replied with links to information. I would like to suggest an orientation that has contributed to my increasing interested in Judyth and her statements. It is this -- it would seem that when someone steps up with information based on an acknowledged connection -- namely that Judyth and LHO both worked at Reilly at the same time -- that there would be an open forum for their statements. Ironically, something to the contrary seems to have taken place -- a number of people, some strategically placed, have stepped up to 'denounce' Judyth right from the start.

To me, as a confirmed CT, this lack of an open forum raises a big red flag. I want to know why this happened. I want to know who was involved. I want to track the positions of these people on the assassination and determine if and what Judyth may be saying that conflicts with them.

Pamela McElwain-Brown

www.jfk100x.com

[Bill Byas]

Wim,

Thank you for responfing. Maybe I should have been more specific. What I meant is what evidence is there for and against Judyth's accusatiopns of conspiracy?

[John Simkin]

Pamela McElwain-Brown is right to say that Judyth Vary Baker has been treated appallingly by many JFK researchers. I have had a lot of contact with Judyth and she has been extremely helpful in providing evidence that supports her story. There is no doubt that Judyth did work at the Reily Coffee Company in New Orleans in 1963. It is also clear that she was an outstanding science student who went on to do cancer research.

Judyth has had difficulty proving that she had an affair with Lee Harvey Oswald in 1963. However, I would argue that we would all have problems providing documentary evidence that we had a secret affair with someone 40 years ago. The same goes for being involved in a CIA undercover project.

If Judyth’s story is true it provides an important insight to what was going on in 1963. One of the reasons I am sympathetic towards Judyth’s story is that it supports my own view of events.

I believe that Oswald was indeed working for the CIA in 1963. His task was to infiltrate anti-Castro groups. He was also being prepared to take part in an assassination plot against Castro. In the summer of 1963 the CIA officially had to call off this operation (under pressure from JFK). It was at this time that the CIA discovered that JFK was using William Attwood, Lisa Howard and Jean Daniel to carry out secret negotiations with Castro. It was now clear that an invasion of Cuba would now never take place.

Some fairly senior CIA agents, including David Morales, now decided to use these people involved in the plot against Castro in the assassination of JFK. Some of these people, including Oswald, objected to this change in policy. As Judyth points out, Oswald did what he could to undermine the operation. I suspect Richard Case Nagell was another who fell into this category.

Oswald was now clearly an unreliable agent. It was decided that he would no longer be part of the plot. Instead, he became the man who would be set up as the patsy. The plan was for him to be killed on what appeared to be on his journey to Cuba. The conspirators thought that this would guarantee that Johnson would send troops to overthrow Castro.

However, this elaborate plot collapsed for two major reasons. One was the failure to kill Oswald at the right time. Even so, although more difficult, this plot would have still worked when Ruby was able to kill Oswald before he could publicly tell the world what had happened.

The second problem was far more serious. The conspirators fully expected Lyndon Johnson to order an invasion of Cuba after J. Edgar Hoover told him on 23rd November, 1963, that John F. Kennedy had been assassinated as a result of a conspiracy that involved Cuba and the Soviet Union. This was confirmed at a meeting that day with John McCone (Director of the CIA).

Johnson was reluctant to do this. He knew that the announcement of a communist conspiracy to kill John Kennedy would be followed by a full investigation into the events surrounding the assassination. If this happened, Johnson was likely to be forced to resign in disgrace.

In November, 1963, Johnson was embroiled in a serious political scandal. According to Robert Winter Barger, Johnson told John McCormick: “… that son of a bitch (Bobby Baker) is going to ruin me. If that cocksucker talks, I’m gonna land in jail…. I practically raised that mother****** and now he’s going to make me the first President of the United States to spend the last days of his life behind bars!”

Senator John Williams was known as the "Sherlock Holmes of Capitol Hill". During a 15 year period his investigations resulted in over 200 indictments and 125 convictions. In the summer of 1963 he began investigating the activities of Bobby Baker, Fred Black and Billie Sol Estes. Baker was LBJ’s political secretary. Black was one of LBJ’s political advisers. Both these men were involved in the business activities of Billie Sol Estes.

Senator John McClellan, chairman of the Permanent Investigations Committee, also became involved in this inquiry. Williams and McClellan discovered that in 1962 Baker had established the Serve-U-Corporation with his friend, Fred Black, and mobsters Ed Levenson and Benny Sigelbaum. The company was to provide vending machines for companies working on federally granted programs. The machines were manufactured by a company secretly owned by Sam Giancana and other mobsters based in Chicago. It was claimed that LBJ was getting a rake-off from Serve-U-Corporation in return for arranging for vending machines to be placed in these company’s offices and factories.

Evidence also emerged that Lyndon B. Johnson was also involved in political corruption concerning the placing of arms contracts. This included the award of a $7 billion contract for a fighter plane, the TFX, to General Dynamics, a company based in Texas. Fred Korth, the Navy Secretary, and a close friend of LBJ, had been involved in negotiating this contract.

On 7th October, 1963, Baker was forced to leave his post as LBJ’s secretary. On 1st November, 1963, Korth was forced to resign over the TFX contract.

Rumours began to spread that JFK was going to drop LBJ as his running mate in 1964. Robert Kennedy appeared to confirm this by briefing against LBJ. This including information that suggested that LBJ would be prosecuted for political corruption.

At this time the key witness had yet to testify. His name was Don B. Reynolds. A close friend of Bobby Baker, Reynolds claimed that for many years he had a business relationship with LBJ. Reynolds was due to provide evidence before a secret session of the Senate Rules Committee on 22nd November, 1963. LBJ would not be there to hear what was said for on that day he was to be visiting Dallas with JFK.

On returning from Dallas LBJ discovered what Reynolds had told B. Everett Jordan and his Senate Rules Committee that day. According to Reynolds he had seen a suitcase full of money which Baker described as a "$100,000 payoff to Johnson for his role in securing the Fort Worth TFX contract".

LBJ immediately contacted B. Everett Jordan to see if there was any chance of stopping this information being published. Jordan replied that he would do what he could but warned Johnson that some members of the committee wanted Reynolds's testimony to be released to the public.

To Johnson the safe option would be to claim that Lee Harvey Oswald was a lone gunman. J. Edgar Hoover also had good reasons to accept this option. Any thorough investigation would show Hoover’s close relationship with Clint Murchison, a Texas multimillionaire who was suspected on being one of those who helped fund the assassination.

John McCone, Director of the CIA, also had his problems. An investigation would show that some senior figures in the organization, including Tracy Barnes, David Atlee Phillips, Ted Shackley, Desmond FitzGerald, William Harvey and David Morales were implicated in the assassination.

It did not take long for Johnson to convince J. Edgar Hoover and John McCone to take part in the cover-up. The problem for Johnson was to provide a good reason for this action. He knew that eventually historians would discover what he had done.

Lyndon Johnson taped every telephone conversation he had as president. However, he erased most of these tapes afterwards. He did keep some and these were donated to the Lyndon Johnson Library on his death. Over the last few years these tapes have gradually been released.

As historians the most important question to ask is: Why did LBJ decide to keep these tapes? We have to assume he eventually wanted this information in the public domain. One tape saved was a telephone call he made to his great friend, Richard Russell on 29th November, 1963:

“Richard Russell: I know I don't have to tell you of my devotion to you but I just can't serve on that Commission. I'm highly honoured you'd think about me in connection with it but I couldn't serve on it with Chief Justice Warren. I don't like that man. I don't have any confidence in him at all.

Lyndon B. Johnson: It has already been announced and you can serve with anybody for the good of America and this is a question that has a good many more ramifications than on the surface and we've got to take this out of the arena where they're testifying that Khrushchev and Castro did this and did that and chuck us into a war that can kill 40 million Americans in an hour…

LBJ explains that if he accepts a communist conspiracy he will be under pressure to invade Cuba. This is likely to lead to a nuclear war that would “kill 40 million Americans in an hour.” Therefore, the only safe course is to believe that Oswald was a lone gunman. That there was no communist conspiracy. Therefore, LBJ’s cover up helps to save the world.

The right-wing cabal that organized the assassination of JFK did not get the overthrow of Castro. However, they did get something very important out of the deal. The continuance of the Cold War. This after all is what the Military Industrial Complex wanted out of the assassination. In fact, the existence of a communist government so close to the United States helped to fuel the paranoia that was the life-blood of American foreign policy.

[Wim Dankbaar]

Bill,

I can only give you evidence FOR Judyth's veracity. "Evidence" against her would have to be provided by others. I tend to see them as the "usual suspects" and their "evidence" should be scrutinised with a magnifying glass.

Here is a link between Ochner, his INCA anti-communist organisation and Lee Harvey Oswald. As you can see Ochsner was quick to promote Lee as the disaffected lone nut commie assassin, while in fact Lee was working for him in the Cancer bioweapon-project aimed against Castro.

http://www.conelrad.com/media/atomicmusic/....php?platter=19

Again, let me know if you want more.

Wim

PS: And thank you, John Simkin, your post reassures me that you're one of the "good guys". Sometimes it's hard to distinguish.

Edited August 28, 2004 by Wim Dankbaar

[John Simkin]

PS: And thank you, John Simkin, your post reassures me that you're one of the "good guys".  Sometimes it's hard to distinguish.

We will sometimes agree but I would not use this as evidence that I am one of your “good guys”. I fact, I don’t think I am anybody’s good guy. I am just doing my best to find out why JFK was assassinated. I think one of the major problems about JFK research is that people tend to want to become members of factions that all agree about the case.

This is both undesirable and counter-productive. To retain our intellectual independence it is important to remain outside of these different factions.

[Martin Shackelford]

Could someone tell me very briefly what evidnce there is for and agaist Judyth Baker?

Please-just facts, not opinions.

Bill Byas

Evidence that she had a background in cancer research, and relating to increasing the strength of a cancer--strong.

Evidence that she worked at Reily Co. at the same time as Oswald--strong

Evidence that she was involved with Oswald personally--three witnesses from that summer, plus several people with whom she talked about the relationship from 1964 on.

Evidence that she was involved with a cancer project involving David Ferrie--a good circumstantial case--she knows a lot of unpublished information about both Ferrie and Dr. Mary Sherman, and there are reports of a young woman being seen around there that summer--unusual for Ferrie, given his orientation.

As for the JFK conspiracy material, that's credible if she knew Oswald, as she's repeating what he told her.

Martin Shackelford

[Pat Speer]

Great post, John. Paints a fairly complete and credible portrait of what may have occurred. A couple of little tidbits that immediately came to mind which could be added into this was that even beyond concerns over his own career, LBJ may have had concerns that if Kennedy was killed by Communists it would swing the country to the Goldwater right no matter how he responded. (His fears are borne out by our current polls.) Alexander Haig, of all people, in his book Circles, claimed there was evidence for a conspiracy which was hushed up for this very reason.

Another little tidbit that fits in with Ms. Baker's scenario is that Hoover's good buddy Clint Murchison was a regular visitor to the Ochsner clinic.

[Wim Dankbaar]

Another little tidbit that fits in with Ms. Baker's scenario is that Hoover's good buddy Clint Murchison was a regular visitor to the Ochsner clinic.

According to Judyth Murchison gave Ochsner a new black caddillac every year. This was the caddillac that Ferrie, Shaw and Oswald were seen in by all those witnesses in Clinton, that were quizzed by Jim Garrison.

Wim

And by the way, with "good guys" I just mean people without any hidden or personal agendas, not necessarily people who don't agree with me. For example, I count Schackelford as a "good guy", but we disagree on a number of things, especially James Files and Chauncey Holt.

[Judyth Baker]

Dear John: I am very busy this week and will not be able to check replies to this thread for probably a week as I am moving to a new location. However, there are a multitude of files about the Ochsner-Murchison-Nixon-LBJ connection. Ochsner sent a letter to Pres. Gerald Ford praising him for pardoning Richard Nixon. Follow that trail backwards to 1963. The benevolent doc was into a lot of mischief. Co-founder of INCA, he always knew who Lee really was. he was terrified that Lee would TELL. He hastened to put oput the record PORTRAIT IN RED showing the ugly drawing his partner Ed Bitler made of Lee to make him look really bad, because the only photos they had were of Lee looking very nice in his suit.

In a tiny nutshell:

The Murchison connection to Ochsner is powerful and enduring. Ochsner went to El Charro where Hoover and the mob and Murchison and his buddies would meet. Murchison also paid for construction at the new Ochsner Clinic that was moved into in March, 1963. Murchison also gave Ochsner a RACE TRACK that Ochsner sold for half a million dollars. Ochsner's best friends were Murchison and his buddies. They also met at Koon Kreek Klub in Texas to play poker. Most of this information can easily be found in "Alton Ochsner, Surgeon of the South"which is the official Ochsner biography. An earlier printing of this book that had more information in it seems to have been confiscated, as a photo showing Mary Sherman - the only female of consequence on Ochsner's staff - has been removed. But I took a photocopy of that photo from an early printing of this book. Remember that Ochsner FLEW TO WASHINGOTN EVERY TEN DAYS during this time period to meet with the Surgeon General's CIA-sponsored committee. He also flew in once a week for years, and perhaps still in 1963, to Washington to meet witrh the Army's Surgeon General responsible for inspecting all airbases aorund the world for US. That may have come about because Ochsner and Chennault of Flying Tiger/CIA fame were close friends. Anna Chennault, and this is important, met with Ochsner after Ochsner met with Richard Nixon, and in strategizing for Nixon's election, Anna made sure the Peaxe Talk on Vietnam were scrapped. Look it up! It was her! Ochsner's wife suddenly died of the same kind of galloping lung cancer that we were working with, though she did not smoke, and Ochsner after some months married a friend of Richard Nixon, a wealthjy and independent lady whom Ochsner treated badly, but who kept the lid on him as he aged and might have let something slip. Of course, this is my interpretation. Nobody in that family doubts that she seems to have 'loved' him, but in fact, he does not seem to have loved her. When she couldn't get a visa to their honeymoon in Greece due to their quickie marriage, the lady called The White HGouse, asked for President Nixon, and immediately got her visa. Hope somebody will post this for me, at Education Forum.

I have files on these people, and appreciate how well John Simkin is putting together the pieces. The connections between Ochsner and everyone else were possible because he was the genial surgeon who smiled a lot and who, though he wanted to kill Castro, otherwise seemed quite the nice fellow. I saw an entirely different side of this man, however. He screamed at me over the phone and told somebody I was 'expendable'and that Lee was éxpendable'too, after I objected to using prisoner volunteer(s) in the last stage of our work who did NOT have cancer, and they were unwtting. I had been told that only person suffering from uncurable cancer would be used. But they couldn't find anyone like that, and went ahead and used healthy men. This is why my cancer research and progress to becoming a doctor was cut off, because I wrote a note in protest, and Ochsner said because of making a paper trail, I was toast.

I have a collection of information that includes private emails which I am sending to John Simkin that has copious background info on Ochsner. He can select some of this material to share with you, as he sees fit.

Judyth

Edited August 29, 2004 by John Simkin

[Bill Byas]

Bill,

I can only give you evidence FOR Judyth's veracity. "Evidence" against her would have to be provided by others. I tend to see them as the "usual suspects" and their "evidence" should be scrutinised with a magnifying glass.

Here is a link between Ochner, his INCA anti-communist organisation and Lee Harvey Oswald. As you can see Ochsner was quick to promote Lee as the disaffected lone nut commie assassin, while in fact Lee was working for him in the Cancer bioweapon-project aimed against Castro.

http://www.conelrad.com/media/atomicmusic/....php?platter=19

Again, let me know if you want more.

Wim

PS: And thank you, John Simkin, your post reassures me that you're one of the "good guys".  Sometimes it's hard to distinguish.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wim,

Thank you, again, for responing. Unfortunely the link you posted does'nt say anythign about Oswald knowing Ochsner. Apparently, its just Ochsner talking about Oswald.

Are there any witneses who put Oswald and Ochsner together?

Bill Byas

[Bill Byas]

Bill,

I can only give you evidence FOR Judyth's veracity. "Evidence" against her would have to be provided by others. I tend to see them as the "usual suspects" and their "evidence" should be scrutinised with a magnifying glass.

Wim,

Of course we must scrutinze all claims. The most serious claim I saw comes from Dave Reiztes-and of course Reiztes is prejudiced but I checked his information and here is what I found-Oswald was photograohed w/o a tooth in 1954-55 school year, (the picture was in school yearbook published spring 1955)-but Judyth says David Ferrie punched Oswald and loosened the tooth and it fell out later in the summer of 55, when Oswald was in Civil Air Patrol. (HSC says Oswald joined C.A.P. on 27 July 1955).

Whatever one think of Reites he put this infrmation out-which is hard evidence-and asked for an honest explaination. Maybe Reitez is wrong but I checked and it looks like he is right. I must say it bothers me that Judyth has never ansered. Maybe she will answer now I hope/.

Bill Byas

[Bill Byas]

Could someone tell me very briefly what evidnce there is for and agaist Judyth Baker?

Please-just facts, not opinions.

Bill Byas

Evidence that she had a background in cancer research, and relating to increasing the strength of a cancer--strong.

Evidence that she worked at Reily Co. at the same time as Oswald--strong

Evidence that she was involved with Oswald personally--three witnesses from that summer, plus several people with whom she talked about the relationship from 1964 on.

Evidence that she was involved with a cancer project involving David Ferrie--a good circumstantial case--she knows a lot of unpublished information about both Ferrie and Dr. Mary Sherman, and there are reports of a young woman being seen around there that summer--unusual for Ferrie, given his orientation.

As for the JFK conspiracy material, that's credible if she knew Oswald, as she's repeating what he told her.

Martin Shackelford

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Martin,

I read an interview with John Newman where he said govenment documents are very hard to get rid of permnantly because there are many copies, there are "soft files", ect. LNs attack Newman but he is very experience intel anaylst and I think he is honest. Also I think he is right becuase look at "Mk-Ultra". Richard Helms (I think it was Helms) ordered all docs. destroyed about it. But years later many docs. turn up and now we know much about what was supposably destroyed. Also-Look at how much we know about C.I.A./Mafia plots that comes from C.I.A. files.

My point is-if Judyth's story is true should'nt there be some docs. supportinmg her about Ferrie and Judyth and Mary Sherman working on a project? Or for Oswlad being C.I.A. and Maurice Bishop and being his handler or defecting to Russia for C.I.A? Or CLay Shaw or Ochsner or Bannister? Are therer really no docs. to prove some of these things?

I am not a LN. I just want to know the truth.

Bill Byas

[Wim Dankbaar]

There are two witnesses who put Judyth and Lee together as lovers. Most other witnesses are either dead (like Sherman, Ferrie and Banister to name a few) or afraid to talk.

There are no (public) documents to put Oswald and Ochsner together. You can be sure this would not be in Ochsner's interest and that he has done his best to avoid any paper trail on this connection, given the sensitivity and secrecy of these operations. So ... No, unfortunately there are no such documents available that I know of. Did you you know that in conspiracy law, circumstancial evidence is enough?

Judyth has answered me about the claims of Dave Reitzes, who is a staunt follower of John Mcadams in my book. I am sure she will answer you once she sees this post. Personally I would not dignify any of Reitszes' claims with a response. His methods are despicable in my view.

Bill, would you please tell me a little more about yourself? Such as your interest in the JFK assassination, when it started, what you believe, what you studied and if you have published or written anything on the case? You are a new member and I have never seen your name before. Are you "a new kid on the block" or have you been around a lot longer?

Thanks in advance,

Wim

Edited August 28, 2004 by Wim Dankbaar