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Sam Papich and Oswald


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#1 John Simkin

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Posted 27 July 2009 - 12:16 PM

Email from an anti-conspiracist journalist:

I note that you have highlighted Dick Russell’s book on your main page and so I wanted to pass on this tidbit. When i was interviewing Sam Papich, the FBI liaison officer to the CIA, about the FBI’s probe into the JFK assassination, several times he stopped the interview and referred me to that book. It was very strange, as if he was trying to tell me something. I’m not sure what, but he just kept saying it was an “interesting” account of events. Knowing Sam as I came to, I have been left with the impression that he regarded certain threads in that book has worthy of further exploration, but thought that journalists had not picked up on those threads.

He also mentioned in those interviews that the thing that bothered him most about the Warren report was that “this would have been very fancy shooting even for the best marksmen in the FBI. But everything we had on Oswald indicated that he was a crappy shot.”

You can use this information however you like, but please don’t attribute it to me....


#2 Stephen Roy

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Posted 27 July 2009 - 04:22 PM

[attachment=17847:Sam_Papich.jpg]

Samuel J. Papich

#3 Denis Pointing

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Posted 27 July 2009 - 06:14 PM

Email from an anti-conspiracist journalist:

I note that you have highlighted Dick Russell’s book on your main page and so I wanted to pass on this tidbit. When i was interviewing Sam Papich, the FBI liaison officer to the CIA, about the FBI’s probe into the JFK assassination, several times he stopped the interview and referred me to that book. It was very strange, as if he was trying to tell me something. I’m not sure what, but he just kept saying it was an “interesting” account of events. Knowing Sam as I came to, I have been left with the impression that he regarded certain threads in that book has worthy of further exploration, but thought that journalists had not picked up on those threads.

He also mentioned in those interviews that the thing that bothered him most about the Warren report was that “this would have been very fancy shooting even for the best marksmen in the FBI. But everything we had on Oswald indicated that he was a crappy shot.”

You can use this information however you like, but please don’t attribute it to me....


And yet our very own and very respected Tom Purvis argues persuasively that the shot was a relatively easy one and that Oswald, who in Tom's experienced opinion was an excellent shot, would have been more then capable of delivering. I've never known Tom to be anything but trufull and there's no denying that he is an expert in such matters. Think I'll stick to the expert I know.

Edited by Denis Pointing, 27 July 2009 - 11:21 PM.


#4 William Kelly

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Posted 27 July 2009 - 06:31 PM

Email from an anti-conspiracist journalist:

I note that you have highlighted Dick Russell’s book on your main page and so I wanted to pass on this tidbit. When i was interviewing Sam Papich, the FBI liaison officer to the CIA, about the FBI’s probe into the JFK assassination, several times he stopped the interview and referred me to that book. It was very strange, as if he was trying to tell me something. I’m not sure what, but he just kept saying it was an “interesting” account of events. Knowing Sam as I came to, I have been left with the impression that he regarded certain threads in that book has worthy of further exploration, but thought that journalists had not picked up on those threads.

He also mentioned in those interviews that the thing that bothered him most about the Warren report was that “this would have been very fancy shooting even for the best marksmen in the FBI. But everything we had on Oswald indicated that he was a crappy shot.”

You can use this information however you like, but please don’t attribute it to me....


And yet our very own and very respected Tom Purvis argues persauvely that the shot was a relatively easy one and that Oswald, who in Tom's experienced opinion was an excellent shot, would have been more then capable of delivering. I've never known Tom to be anything but trufull and there's no denying that he is an expert in such matters. Think I'll stick to the expert I know.


While the expert believes the gun found on the Sixth Floor could have been capable of committing the dastardly deed, the expert can't explain whether the scope was used, or whether the gun was fired at all that day.

And his favorite suspect, who reportedly purchased the gun, and was quite capable of the marksmanship involved - a girl scout could have made those shots - was not in the Sixth Floor girl scout's nest but on the second floor with his supervisor and a cop a minute and a half after the last shot, while another man was seen in the sniper's window. Who was that guy if not Oswald?

The expert also says the primary suspect was a no-good, wife-beating, slagger, who couldn't hold a job and was lucky, rather than a well trained, lone-wolf, successful assassin.

The expert says that the throwaway gun could have been used to make three shots, and the primary suspect could have made the shots, but the gun was planted and the suspect has an alibi and was framed as the patsy.

The experts say coulda, woulda, shoulda, but I say didn't, and I'll stick with common sense.

As for Sam Papach, the FBI liason to the CIA and Orrin Bartlett, the FBI liason to the Secret Service, are important in determining the relastionships between the three primary intelligence networks investigating the case.

It's interesting that Papich would find Russell's book has a key.

Bill Kelly

Edited by William Kelly, 27 July 2009 - 06:38 PM.


#5 John Bevilaqua

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Posted 27 July 2009 - 08:14 PM

And yet our very own and very respected Tom Purvis argues persauvely that the shot was a relatively easy one and that Oswald, who in Tom's experienced opinion was an excellent shot, would have been more then capable of delivering. I've never known Tom to be anything but trufull (sic) and there's no denying that he is an expert in such matters. Think I'll stick to the expert I know.


Even though Tom has been nothing but "trufull (sic)" everyone's subjective opinions are always open to interpretation and discussion, however. Certainly the kill shot could never have
been made from the TSBD 6TH floor window using a bolt-operated gun with mis-aligned sights. I think we all know that the kill shot came from the Grassy Knoll, don't we? Fact is, there was
a conspiracy, but neither Guns nor Gore will lead us to a living conspirator or suspects, only "suspicions". And that is why so much time is wasted in Dealey angles and Bethesda subterfuges.
Time to move on to something more productive.

#6 Denis Pointing

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Posted 27 July 2009 - 11:02 PM

And yet our very own and very respected Tom Purvis argues persauvely that the shot was a relatively easy one and that Oswald, who in Tom's experienced opinion was an excellent shot, would have been more then capable of delivering. I've never known Tom to be anything but trufull (sic) and there's no denying that he is an expert in such matters. Think I'll stick to the expert I know.


Even though Tom has been nothing but "trufull (sic)" everyone's subjective opinions are always open to interpretation and discussion, however. Certainly the kill shot could never have
been made from the TSBD 6TH floor window using a bolt-operated gun with mis-aligned sights. I think we all know that the kill shot came from the Grassy Knoll, don't we? Fact is, there was
a conspiracy, but neither Guns nor Gore will lead us to a living conspirator or suspects, only "suspicions". And that is why so much time is wasted in Dealey angles and Bethesda subterfuges.
Time to move on to something more productive.


I see your back Mr Bevilqua. Nice clear photo you've posted, I see your still managing to flout the rules of the forum. But for once I totally agree with you, nothing would give me greater pleasure than to see you "move on to something more productive"...in fact the further you move the better.
P.S. Thanks for pointing out the spelling mistake, have you learned to spell vilify yet? See sig.

Edited by Denis Pointing, 27 July 2009 - 11:26 PM.


#7 Denis Pointing

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Posted 27 July 2009 - 11:19 PM

Email from an anti-conspiracist journalist:

I note that you have highlighted Dick Russell's book on your main page and so I wanted to pass on this tidbit. When i was interviewing Sam Papich, the FBI liaison officer to the CIA, about the FBI's probe into the JFK assassination, several times he stopped the interview and referred me to that book. It was very strange, as if he was trying to tell me something. I'm not sure what, but he just kept saying it was an "interesting" account of events. Knowing Sam as I came to, I have been left with the impression that he regarded certain threads in that book has worthy of further exploration, but thought that journalists had not picked up on those threads.

He also mentioned in those interviews that the thing that bothered him most about the Warren report was that "this would have been very fancy shooting even for the best marksmen in the FBI. But everything we had on Oswald indicated that he was a crappy shot."

You can use this information however you like, but please don't attribute it to me....


And yet our very own and very respected Tom Purvis argues persuasively that the shot was a relatively easy one and that Oswald, who in Tom's experienced opinion was an excellent shot, would have been more then capable of delivering. I've never known Tom to be anything but trufull and there's no denying that he is an expert in such matters. Think I'll stick to the expert I know.


Tom Purvis never convinced me of anything. If he is such an 'expert', he should know better and IMO probably does, but wants to pin the rap on the patsy and lead others liked the piped piper into believing it also. Oswald didn't shoot anyone that day. Period. Those that promote otherwise just want people chasing their own tails, so the case doesn't get solved and the putch that took over can continue in its destruction of America [now all but complete] IMO.


I find it interesting that the FBI-CIA liason found TMWKTM of 'interest'. Nagell was one of the 'keys' one could use to  unlock the secrets....but he was never called by the 'investigators' - as they didn't want to  unlock the secrets, really...just have a goon show and make it look as if they were. IMO.


Peter, your not seriously suggesting Tom Purvis is some kind of dis info agent are you? Good God man, you have that long sig ranting on about "freedom and liberty" etc and yet anyone who voices a differant opinion to yourself is regarded as an enemy who should be silenced!! God help us all if you ever take up that offer as moderator.

Edited by Denis Pointing, 27 July 2009 - 11:31 PM.


#8 William Kelly

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 02:04 AM

Email from an anti-conspiracist journalist:

I note that you have highlighted Dick Russell's book on your main page and so I wanted to pass on this tidbit. When i was interviewing Sam Papich, the FBI liaison officer to the CIA, about the FBI's probe into the JFK assassination, several times he stopped the interview and referred me to that book. It was very strange, as if he was trying to tell me something. I'm not sure what, but he just kept saying it was an "interesting" account of events. Knowing Sam as I came to, I have been left with the impression that he regarded certain threads in that book has worthy of further exploration, but thought that journalists had not picked up on those threads.

He also mentioned in those interviews that the thing that bothered him most about the Warren report was that "this would have been very fancy shooting even for the best marksmen in the FBI. But everything we had on Oswald indicated that he was a crappy shot."

You can use this information however you like, but please don't attribute it to me....


And yet our very own and very respected Tom Purvis argues persuasively that the shot was a relatively easy one and that Oswald, who in Tom's experienced opinion was an excellent shot, would have been more then capable of delivering. I've never known Tom to be anything but trufull and there's no denying that he is an expert in such matters. Think I'll stick to the expert I know.


Tom Purvis never convinced me of anything. If he is such an 'expert', he should know better and IMO probably does, but wants to pin the rap on the patsy and lead others liked the piped piper into believing it also. Oswald didn't shoot anyone that day. Period. Those that promote otherwise just want people chasing their own tails, so the case doesn't get solved and the putch that took over can continue in its destruction of America [now all but complete] IMO.


I find it interesting that the FBI-CIA liason found TMWKTM of 'interest'. Nagell was one of the 'keys' one could use to  unlock the secrets....but he was never called by the 'investigators' - as they didn't want to  unlock the secrets, really...just have a goon show and make it look as if they were. IMO.


Peter, your not seriously suggesting Tom Purvis is some kind of dis info agent are you? Good God man, you have that long sig ranting on about "freedom and liberty" etc and yet anyone who voices a differant opinion to yourself is regarded as an enemy who should be silenced!! God help us all if you ever take up that offer as moderator.


Excuse me Denis, but I just reread what Peter wrote about Thom, and he doesn't call him or suggest that Purvis is "some kind of dis info agent," he just says he is wrong about the gun being adequate and Oswald being a good enough shooter, exactly what Sam Papich related to the anti-conspiracy mystery journalist who interviewed him.

It certainly means more coming from Papich than Purvis.

Nor is Purvis considered the enemy who should be silenced. He can say it a hundred times - the gun and Oswald were good enough to do the job, but Oswald wasn't in the sniper's nest at the time of the shooting and I think another weapon was used.

And for the FBI/CIA liason to suggest this shows that they knew what was going on, and the gun, the shells and the Parkland bullet were plants to implicate Oswald as the patsy, just as Oswald claimed before they killed him.

"You have your man." - LBJ

Now if the mystery journalist and Purvis and others would follow Papich's other advice, and see what the key is in Dick Russel's book, maybe the truth can be taken further.

BK

#9 Mark Knight

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 06:07 AM

Now, I've followed Tom Purvis' arguments for quite some time, and I think a lot of you have misinterpreted what Tom has said.

1..The Mannlicher-Carcano model 91/38 short rifle recovered from the TSBD was capable of accurately making the shots it is accused of making, cheap Japanese scope notwithstanding.

2. The Mannlicher-Carcano model 91/24 shortened rifle that Oswald/Hidell ordered--and apparently received from Klein's--was NOT capable of the accuracy required, due to the progressive twist rifling that was removed when the barrel was shortened.

3. At the ranges of the 3 shots [all under 100 yards], Oswald was CAPABLE of making those shots...a necessary element for Oswald to be a credible patsy.

4. Most importantly, NO ONE, including Tom Purvis, can place Oswald in the window of the southeast corner of the sixth floor of the TSBD with or without any rifle, at the time the shots occurred. [Tom merely concludes that Oswald is the "most likely" person to have shot from that window...whereas I disagree with that conclusion.]

I think Oswald was the "credible patsy" who happened to have ordered a rifle similar to the one found in the TSBD...except Oswald apparently ordered [and received] the 36-inch "shortened" rifle, rather than the 40-inch short rifle found in the TSBD. I don't think Oswald fired a rifle that day. And I don't think Tom Purvis will disagree with any of the 4 points I listed above.

#10 Denis Pointing

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 04:42 PM

Tom Purvis never convinced me of anything. If he is such an 'expert', he should know better and IMO probably does, but wants to pin the rap on the patsy and lead others liked the piped piper into believing it also. Oswald didn't shoot anyone that day. Period. Those that promote otherwise just want people chasing their own tails, so the case doesn't get solved and the putch that took over can continue in its destruction of America [now all but complete] IMO.


I find it interesting that the FBI-CIA liason found TMWKTM of 'interest'. Nagell was one of the 'keys' one could use to  unlock the secrets....but he was never called by the 'investigators' - as they didn't want to  unlock the secrets, really...just have a goon show and make it look as if they were. IMO.


Peter, if that's not an "opine on Tom's motives" then I dont know what is!! As a moderator I presume you do understand rule iv?

Edited by Denis Pointing, 28 July 2009 - 04:49 PM.


#11 Denis Pointing

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 09:55 PM

As a Forum member, only, I suggest you stop diverting the topic. I also would like to know where your extreme anger comes from. Take a stress pill. The topic is Papich and Oswald - have anything to say on it?

The "extreme anger" comes from the fact that I wont stand by and watch someone whom I respect and admire be insulted and unfairly accused.
But your right, perhaps I did over react. The "stress pill" has been duly taken and so back to the topic, which concerns Papich's alleged remark about Oswald "being a crappy shot" it is not about whether or not Oswald actually took the shots, that question belongs on another thread.
The link below should settle once and for all (I've a gut feeling it wont) Oswald's shooting capabilities and just how difficult the shot actually was. Its the testimony of Maj Anderson the assistant head of the USMC Marksmanship Branch.
I wont quote from it, anyone truly interested can read it for themselves.
http://www.aarclibra...11_Anderson.pdf

Edited by Denis Pointing, 28 July 2009 - 10:03 PM.


#12 William Kelly

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Posted 29 July 2009 - 03:10 AM

Some interesting Papich memos and info here: http://www.ajweberma...2/nodulec11.htm

Sam Papich wrote that?
Thanks Peter. That pretty well sums up a lot.

I especially like the Joint Intelligenced Objectives Agency (JIOA) and the Aircraft Manufacturers Association (AMA), which I have added to my Acronym lists.

And Bog Lichten, the Bell engineer who helped develop the XB3, also with the Dallas ACLU?

I wonder if he met Oswald at the meeting that Michael Paine took him to, where the women FBI informant who tipped them off about RR Carr, was also present?

And Papich's summary of the Paine's background zoooms right in on Michael's mom - Ruth Forbes Paine Young (RFPY), former wife of Lyman "Trotskite" Paine, but he stops short of introducing RFPY, whose best friend and traveling companion, Mary Bancroft, was Allen Dulles' OSS agent and mistress.

Mary Bancroft was the cut-out between Dulles and Hans B. Gusivious, one of the Nazis who helped organize the Valkyrie Plot, an assassination-Coup designed not only to kill Hitler, but to blame the assasssination on the SS and to take over the government, a plot that we now know was also used by the CIA/DOD as a contingency plan for a coup in Cuba.

Why does Sam Papich zoom right in on Michael's Mom, something that took me decades to do, and then pull up short of mentioning (or didn't he know?) the key connection - Michael's mom and Dulles' agent and paramour Mary Bancroft?

Papich, as head of FBI Counter-Intelligence - was in on the arrest of Rudolph Abel, who was exchanged for Gary Powers in the spy swop, and most likely was in on other CI aspects of the case, ie. Mexico City....

I don't think we've heard the last of Sam Papich, and his opinion of the gun and the shooter are the least significant items that he brings to the table.

And I did read Mark Knight's post on Thom Puris, and will agree with him when Purvis begins to refer to the Sixth Floor Sniper as the Sixth Floor Sniper and not the Patsy.

BK







TO: E. J.Brennan, Jr. DATE: December 9, 1963


FROM: S.J. Papich

SUBJECT: OSWALD

Enclosed herewith is a copy of a memorandum dated December (?) 1963, which Allen Dulles, former Director of the CIA received from a friend, not identified. The document, which was furnished to the liaison Agent on December (?) 1963, by JAMES ANGLETON, CIA, sets forth information concerning the family of Michael Paine. [FBI 105-126129-61 NR 199 12.17.63]

EDWARD AND ABIGAIL SCHAFFNER

On March 13, 1964, Edward and Abigail Schaffner were interviewed by the FBI in Miami, Florida. They said they were 'employed from 1930 to about 1942, and then again immediately after World War II until about 1948, at the Forbes Estate, Naushon Island, Woods Hole, Massachusetts. During these periods, Edward Schaffner was employed in a caretaker capacity, and also assisted in the operation of a ferry boat owned by this estate which traveled from the island to Woods Hole. Abigail Schaffner was employed part-time in a domestic capacity. Her father, William Allen, was superintendent of the caretakers at this estate.

During the above periods the Schaffners knew Michael Paine as a small child, and later as a teenager, when he visited the estate during the summer school vacations." [FBI 105-1717-181]

The letter to Dulles: "It has been reported in the press that a Mrs. Michael Paine had given shelter to Mrs. Oswald and her children -- and that Michael Paine, who is separated from his wife, liked to talk politics and philosophy with OSWALD. All I know -- second hand -- about Mrs. Paine is that she is a Quaker and had 'studied Russian.' However I know about Michael Paine's background and knew him until he was seven years old. He is now approximately 35. His mother is Mrs. Arthur Young of 1810 Delancy Place, Philadelphia. Mrs. Young was born Ruth Forbes. Her mother was a Cabot and her father was Ralph Waldo Forbes, a direct descendant of Ralph Waldo Emerson. Ruth Forbes was also a cousin or niece of Cameron Forbes, one time Governor of the Philippines and U.S. Ambassador to Japan. Ruth Forbes had been married three times, Arthur Young being her first husband. He is an inventor (having 'invented' the helicopter.') I put this in parenthesis because, I believe, he invented improvements to the helicopter rather than he machine itself -- but am not sure. In any case, he is wealthy -- as is his wife -- and in recent years he had devoted himself entirely to researches in what is know under the general heading of ESP (Extra-Sensory Perception). (He believes that there is another 'force' in the universe -- like electricity or similar -- that has not yet been tapped). His researches have been extremely complicated an esoteric and he has worked with the Institute for Advanced Studies at Princeton -- consulted with them -- and also with Bell Laboratories. Ruth Young's first husband -- and Michael Paine's father -- was Lyman Paine who father, Reverend George Lyman Paine -- descendant of a signer of the Declaration of Independence -- was a famous Boston crackpot. He was involved in a lawsuit around the time of World War I, after a Naval officer stormed into his office and slapped or hit him for flirting with the Naval officer's wife. The Reverend Paine on the witness stand defended himself by saying that his relations with the Naval officer's wife had been entirely harmless. He had simply driven her out to the meadows around Boston and 'tickled her under the chin with a piece of 'Timothy Grass.' From then on the Reverend Paine was known as 'Timothy Grass' Paine. I understand he is still alive and in his late 80's -- if not older. He is, of course, Michael Paine's grandfather.

"Lyman Paine, Michael's father -- and Ruth Young's first husband -- was an architect -- but around 1930 -- 34 after divorcing Ruth, he became a 'Trotskyite' and married a girl active in Trotskyite circles. However, typical of the sort of New England crackpot tradition, they were not real Trotskyites, but belonged to some infinitesimal splinter group that as far as I know did nothing but sit around and talk, talk about how the other Trotskyists were 'betraying the Revolution' as conceived by Trotsky. I have not heard for many years anything about Lyman Paine. I believe he and his wife lived -- in the 30's -- in California...Mrs. Young is very much upset about recent happenings and my friend who is her cousin -- although I also know Mrs. Young very well -- 'imagines' that the fact that Lyman Paine was such a talky, talky 'Trotskyite' will lend to Michael's association with OSWALD an implication that in reality it may not have. In other words, Michael's talk may well have been -- although not necessarily was -- simply an offshoot of what he knew to be his father's interests. My own evaluation of Lyman Paine, whom I also knew well in the 1920's, is that he could not do anything, that he was thoroughly incompetent. However, he sure could talk. And I think that it should be pointed out that granted the social position and standing of someone like Michael Paine -- plus someone of his obvious advantages -- for advantages he did have -- and education -- that for a character like OSWALD to tune in on what all this must have meant to him could actually be a 'trigger." I have also heard, but not from his mother, that Michael had homosexual tendencies -- although he did marry and have children." 

SPLINTER GROUP POLITICS


George Lyman Paine moved to the West Coast where he became part of the Forest-Johnson Faction, a Trot splinter group. The Johnson-Forest faction was a group of former Socialist Worker's Party members who broke away from the Socialist Worker's Party in 1951 over the question of whether Yugoslavia should be considered a 'worker' state. George Lyman Paine Jr. and his wife were described as the brains behind the Forest-Johnson Group in the Los Angeles area. The Forest-Johnson then broke into the Forest Faction and Johnson Faction. In 1964 the Johnson faction had six members.

ANALYSIS

Lyman Paine was a factionalist - he was more interested in debating the fine points of Socialism then in defeating the capitalists. He was an armchair revolutionary. OSWALD wrote that he hated the "factional mutants...odd ball Hegelian idealists out of touch with reality."

MICHAEL PAINE


Abigail Schaffner wrote, "Michael Paine from the minute he was born was a strange child. He yelled all the time, was afraid of everything, very destructive and generally weird. His mother, a very placid person, was in despair coping with him, as he would become excited at just about anything." The FBI reported a file from the Military Personnel Records Center in Saint Louis, Missouri, concerning Michael Paine, "contains the following statement: (deleted)." Ruth explained: "When he was sworn into the Army during the Korean war he indicated that he refused to follow orders he felt were immoral." The CIA checked its "security and foreign indices" and reported "no reference identifiable with Subject." [FBI 105-126129-44]

BELL HELICOPTER

The stepfather of Michael Paine was Arthur Young, an inventor who helped perfect the helicopter. Arthur Young helped found Bell Helicopter. Michael Paine was a research engineer at Bell Helicopter with a high security clearance. [WCD 208, 213] 

WALTER R. DORNBERGER


Walter R. Dornberger, a senior vice president of Bell Helicopter, was a former Nazi general who supervised the construction of the first guided missile, developed by Werner von Braun. He was an ardent supporter of Adolf Hitler and used slave labor to build his missiles. After the perfection of the V-2 rocket in 1942, Dornberger directed the bombardment of London with V-2's late in the war. From 1945 to 1947 he was held as a prisoner-of-war in Great Britain. He was brought to the United States in 1950. FBI files indicated "that this individual is a German scientist brought to the United States under the custody and control of the Joint Intelligence Objectives Agency." 

In 1957 it was alleged that Dornberger was still a Nazi:

Airtel TO: Director, FBI

FROM: SAC, Los Angeles (105-5122) December 3, 1957

RE: Werner Von Braun and Walter Dornberger.

Regarding Los Angeles letter to the Bureau, October 11, 1951, captioned (Deleted) INFORMATION CONCERNING; Albany letter to the Bureau November 9, 1951, titled "Guy Boisino del Vall, Misc;" two Washington Field airtels to the Bureau and Los Angeles, July 30, 1954; Washington Field airtel to the Bureau and Los Angeles, August 1, 1954; Los Angeles airtel to the Bureau August 6, 1954, setting out background information concerning (Deleted) and Los Angeles airtels to the Bureau, August 13, 1954, and August 23, 1954, all captioned "(Deleted) Misc. Info Concerning,"

Referenced communications deal largely with de Valle efforts to interest the Department of the Navy and Air Force in (Deleted) and his efforts to have the FBI assist him in this regard.

Enclosed herewith is a blank memorandum with five copies to the Bureau concerning the captioned individuals. 

On December 2, 1957, (Deleted) advised ASAC Ralph W. Machman (Deleted) had been in (Deleted) office on December 2, 1957, and claimed to have information that Von Braun is still a Nazi.

On December 3, 1957, (Deleted) interviewed by SA's (Deleted) and (Deleted) and furnished information which is set up in enclosed blank memorandum.

(Deleted) advised that his primary purpose in contacting (Deleted) was to attempt to have either (Deleted) of the FBI arrange and introduction of (Deleted). He said if (Deleted) believed that this (Deleted) that it would tend to prove the activities of Von Braun and Dornberger have not been in the best interests of the United States. (Deleted) was advised that the Bureau could not arrange such an introduction. (Deleted) One copy of each blank memorandum is being furnished for San Francisco (Deleted) California, Birmingham (Werner Von Braun, Huntsville, Alabama) and Albany (Walter Dornberger, Ithaca, New York).

Another FBI document stated: "FBI files and other agency files of the FBI do not contain any derogatory information concerning Dornberger. Files of the Cincinnati Office revealed that (Deleted) the subject of Bufile entitled (Deleted). A review of this file reflected that (Deleted) was very pro-Nazi and might be a security threat to the United States. Investigation revealed that (Deleted) may have made statements which were considered pro-German, but many of these statements (Deleted) later denied, others, he insisted, were misinterpreted. A large number of neighbors, friends and acquaintances testified to (Deleted)'s loyalty to the United States. There was no evidence of organizational activity. The facts of this case were presented to the United States Attorney on November 13, 1943, who informed that in view of existing court decisions and policies of the Department, this was not a strong enough case to institute denaturalization proceedings against (Deleted). Confidential Informant T-1, another Government agency which conducts security type investigations, advised that their files contained no record of derogatory information regarding Dornberger and no record of any security violations.

In 1958 Dornberger was considered for a non-sensitive position with the United States Government. The FBI reported: "No investigation of this individual is being conducted by the FBI in the absence of a specific request. This is not to be considered as a clearance or disapproval of this individual by the FBI for Federal employment." Dornberger died in July 1980. [FBI 140-0-497321; Newsweek 7.14.80]

Bell Helicopter supplied many CIA-sponsored dictators, such as the Shah of Iran, with materiel. The Textron Corporation, which eventually purchased Bell Helicopter, was investigated for having paid millions of dollars in kickbacks to an Iranian sales agency. Bell Helicopter was a member of the Aircraft Manufacturers Association, like Lockheed, Martin-Marietta and the General Dynamics Corporation. This Association was represented by Albert Jenner when it was a defendant in a Federal antitrust lawsuit. [72-Civ-1307-USDC-NY] Albert Jenner went over Ruth Paine's account of OSWALD with her on the morning that she testified. [WC Paine Testimony p455] He personally knew the Paine family and generated this memo: "After reading the attached article, it occurred to me that may be Michael Paine's father, Lyman Paine, whom I knew well thirty years ago but have not seen since, possibly did play a role somehow. As I told you before, Lyman Paine was -- and I believe still is -- a Trotskyite, but based on my knowledge of his ineffective personality and to the fact that I have been told that he belonged to a small splinter group of the Trotskyites. -- I imagine that all he ever did was talk. However, granted that Trotsky lived in Mexico -- maybe Michael knew of connections and maybe names of various individuals was all OSWALD needed. I don't know if Trotskyites are pro-Castro - but I suppose they could be anything. I have reflected on whether it would make any sense to talk to Lyman Paine -- for I imagine I could locate him -- but I am inclined to think he wouldn't talk -- that he would resent any authority -- for that was always his trouble. However, I think if anyone wanted to talk to him -- it would be wisest -- and most productive -- to talk first to Michael Paine's mother, Mrs. Arthur Young, whom I am sure would be cooperative -- and who could probably tell as much about Lyman Paine as he would tell himself." [UnID Warren Commission document by Jenner to file] 

Ruth Paine claimed her husband only worked for Bell Helicopter for six or seven years: "He got the job because of his stepfather. Michael is not somebody who likes the military-industrial complex." Michael Paine was questioned about his association with Bell Helicopter: "The company was not like that. Personally, I went out there quite independent of that. My stepfather invented the Bell Helicopter. Larry Bell from Bell Aircraft in Buffalo saw it and bought the idea. They got a license around the same time Sikorsky did in 1941. Then I came along - my mother married Arthur in 1946. Arthur engaged me to make models and another friend of his, a Vice President of Bell Helicopter and I were invited to go to Dallas. I stayed for ten years. Union regulations made it very difficult for an engineer to handle a tool. I worked on the 'convertaplane' that eventually became the Osprey. Bell Helicopter was largely a commercial company and it wasn't until the Vietnam war - maybe they used helicopters in Korea - but it was during the Vietnam War that Bell Helicopter made 40% of the aircraft that were used. So it was a vital part of the Vietnam War. I was president of the Committee for Peaceful Solutions in Vietnam. Bell allowed me to show a movie by a CBS correspondent which looked favorably on Ho Chi Minh. Another high officer there named Bob Licten, the promotor of the XB-3, was President of the Dallas American Civil Liberties Union. He died in an automobile accident. Bell was more liberal than many other companies that made the major part of it's income from military sales."



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