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Motorcycle Officers "Martin & Chaney"


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#1 Robin Unger

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 04:12 PM

Robin,

No, the officer in the south lane in your Daniel film blowup is B.J. Martin. Martin rode at the left rear of JFK with Bobby Hargis. The officer in the north lane in the McIntire photo is Jim Chaney. Chaney rode on the right side with Doug Jackson. Both men slowed, but Chaney took off right away. That Daniel frame is 15-20 seconds after the head shot.

As Chief Curry told me in 1979, he spoke with Chaney on the access ramp to Stemmons. At that time, the McIntire photo was unknown, but now I know that the area to which Curry referred was past McIntire's location. And Mel McIntire's photos were never out of his possession at any time. They were first published in 1983 in a Dallas Times Herald 20th anniversary special.

Gary Mack










Edited by Robin Unger, 17 January 2010 - 04:26 PM.


#2 Robin Unger

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 04:33 PM

As Chief Curry told me in 1979, he spoke with Chaney on the access ramp to Stemmons. At that time, the McIntire photo was unknown, but now I know that the area to which Curry referred was past McIntire's location. And Mel McIntire's photos were never out of his possession at any time. They were first published in 1983 in a Dallas Times Herald 20th anniversary special.

Gary Mack





It is now clear to me that Chaney didn't catch up to the Currie car until AFTER they reached the Stemmons access ramp.

After the McIntire photo's were taken.

#3 Jack White

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 05:22 PM

As Chief Curry told me in 1979, he spoke with Chaney on the access ramp to Stemmons. At that time, the McIntire photo was unknown, but now I know that the area to which Curry referred was past McIntire's location. And Mel McIntire's photos were never out of his possession at any time. They were first published in 1983 in a Dallas Times Herald 20th anniversary special.

Gary Mack





It is now clear to me that Chaney didn't catch up to the Currie car until AFTER they reached the Stemmons access ramp.

After the McIntire photo's were taken.


Impossible! Read the testimony.

Jack

#4 Chris Scally

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 05:22 PM

Robin:

You beat me to it. An ISP connectivity problem prevented me posting this a few days ago:

- DPD Officer Earle Brown, on the railway overpass above Stemmons, told Earl Golz in March 1980 that he saw the limo and 4 other cars stop on the Stemmons on-ramp for at least 30 secs. Brown later repeated his story for Gary Mack;

- Officer Doug Jackson told Mack in 1981 that he and Chaney raced after lead car, caught up with it after about 30 secs, and Chaney spoke through window to Curry;

- Curry told another researcher (whose name I cannot recall at this moment) in 1979 that Chaney caught up with him as they began climbing the Stemmons on-ramp;

- Curry told Mack that he slowed down in order to find out if anyone had been hit, as he was unaware that anyone had been hit until Chaney told him. He also said he then had to tell the limousine driver, Secret Service agent Bill Greer, how to get to Parkland Hospital, before issuing “Go to hospital” order;

- Curry told the Warren Commission that he did not transmit on Channel 2 until after he spoke to Motorcycle Officer Jim Chaney;

- DPD Officer Courson said lead car had slowed sufficiently for him to catch it on the Stemmons access road, and Courson was 100-120 feet behind McLain in the motorcade, and McLain was himself about 140 feet behind the Presidential limo when the shots were fired. (Courson was appprox. 80 yds behind JFK at Z-313);

- Chaney is in the extreme left edge of the Daniel film (in the inter-sprocket images, I believe) , and in the Mel McIntire photo - in both cases, he hasn't yet caught up with Curry;

It is therefore highly unlikely/improbable that his conversation with Curry was excised from the Zapruder film.

Chris

#5 Karl Kinaski

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 05:26 PM

As Chief Curry told me in 1979, he spoke with Chaney on the access ramp to Stemmons. At that time, the McIntire photo was unknown, but now I know that the area to which Curry referred was past McIntire's location. And Mel McIntire's photos were never out of his possession at any time. They were first published in 1983 in a Dallas Times Herald 20th anniversary special.

Gary (Ver)Dunckel-Mack



R: Unger

It is now clear to me that Chaney didn't catch up to the Currie car until AFTER they reached the Stemmons access ramp.

After the McIntire photo's were taken.


Sometimes the devil is right! I always thought, that Mr. Fetzer went to far with his claim, Chaney met the Curry car at DP.

KK

#6 Chris Scally

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 05:38 PM

I forgot to mention these quotes from Officer B.W. Hargis' interviews with the HSCA:

On November 16, 1977: "The second shot hit JFK in the head. The presidential car had slowed almost to a stop";
On August 8, 1978: "When the second shot was fired - no doubt gunfire this time as it hit the President's head - the limousine slowed so much it practically stopped...";
On December 29, 1978: "... the limousine slowed and nearly stopped ..."

The limo nearly, almost, practically - but never actually - stopped....

Chris

#7 J. Raymond Carroll

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 05:53 PM

The limo nearly, almost, practically - but never actually - stopped....
Chris


As Huxley said, the great tragedy of science is the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis by an ugly fact.

:ice

#8 James H. Fetzer

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 06:13 PM

OpEdNews

Original Content at http://www.opednews...._of_jfk_fil.htm

February 5, 2008

New Proof of JFK Film Fakery: "Conclusive Evidence," Experts Claim

By Jim Fetzer

Madison, WI (OpEdNews) February 5, 2008 — The editor of Assassination Research, James H. Fetzer, Ph.D., has announced the discovery of new proof that the home movies of the assassination of JFK known as the Zapruder film and a second known as the Nix film are fakes. (The Nix film was taken from the opposite side looking toward “the grassy knoll.”) Both were subject to extensive alteration to fabricate evidence of the crime and keep the truth about the sequence of events in Dealey Plaza from the American people. Fetzer, McKnight Professor Emeritus at the University of Minnesota, observed that the films are authentic only if the visible events they record correspond to the actual sequence of events at the time. “This proof is based upon the convergent testimony of motorcycle patrolmen, members of the Secret Service, and the Dallas Chief of Police. That it contradicts the official account of the assassination recorded in the films qualifies as a major breakthrough.”

The evidence emerged as an unexpected outcome of the collation of eyewitness reports in Dealey Plaza conducted by John P. Costella, Ph.D., who co-edits assassinationresearch.com with Fetzer. Costella earned his Ph.D. in physics with a specialty in electromagnetism, including the physics of light and of moving objects. What he discovered were multiple, consistent and reinforcing reports that James Chaney, a motorcycle patrolman who was to the right rear of the presidential limousine, rode forward to tell Jesse Curry, Dallas Chief of Police—who was in the lead car with the head of the Secret Service in Dallas, Agent Forrest Sorrels, and a second Secret Service Agent, Winston Lawson—that the President had been shot. This led Chief Curry to issue instructions for the limousine to be escorted to Parkland Hospital, where the President would be pronounced dead 30 minutes later. Bobby Hargis, a motorcycle patrolman riding on the left rear, confirmed Chaney’s report. But this sequence is in neither the Zapruder film nor the Nix film.

During the past dozen years, substantial evidence of the Zapruder film’s alteration has accumulated in a research effort that became serious in 1996 during a symposium at the JFK Lancer Conference in November. Fetzer brought together numerous experts on the film, including Jack White, David W. Mantik, and Noel Twyman, the author of Bloody Treason (1997), which includes scientific studies of the film’s authenticity. Twyman, a retired engineer, had noticed that the driver of the President’s limousine, SSA William Greer, had turned to look at JFK and then turned back with preternatural speed. He hired a professional tennis player to study how fast human head turns could be made and determined that Greer’s head turns were approximately twice as fast as humanly possible. That might not sound like much initially, but it would be like converting a 4 minute mile into a 2 minute mile. Based upon this research, Twyman had discovered objective evidence of the removal of frames from the film.

Studies published in The Great Zapruder Film Hoax (2003), provide overwhelming additional proof of alteration, including technical studies by Costella. For example, Frame 232, which had previously been published in LIFE magazine, turned out to have optically impossible features. He also discovered that, in recreating the film, which had to have its frames re-shot using sophisticated techniques of optical printing and special effects—in order to avoid disclosing the deception via “ghost images” in the sprocket area, which cannot be reproduced—the conspirators had made mistakes during their reinsertion of images of the Stemmons Freeway sign and of a lamppost. Moreover, Erwin Schwartz, an associate of Abraham Zapruder, reported seeing JFK’s brains blown outward to the left and to the rear, while several agents of the Secret Service had reported being nauseated by the blood and the brains splattered across the trunk of the car. Neither is visible today in “the Zapruder film”. A visual seminar of Costella’s research is archived at assasssinationscience.com.

Part of the power of Costella’s new findings is that they can be appraised by anyone with access to the film, which is archived at the same site, and his collation of reports at Assassination Research 5/1 (2007), assassinationresearch/v5n1/v5n1costella.pdf . As illustrations of what he has uncovered, here are some of the reports from the officials who were involved:

* James Chaney (motorcycle patrolman on right rear of the Presidential limousine): “I went ahead of the President’s car to inform Chief Curry that the President had been hit. And then he instructed us over the air to take him to Parkland Hospital and that Parkland was standing by.”

* Bobby Hargis (motorcycle patrolman on left rear of the Presidential limousine): “The motorcycle officer on the right side of the car was Jim Chaney. He immediately went forward and announced to the Chief that the President had been shot.”

* Winston Lawson (Secret Service Agent in the lead car in front of the Presidential limousine): “A motorcycle escort officer pulled along side our Lead Car and said the President had been shot. Chief Curry gave a signal over the radio for police to converge on the area of the incident.”

* Forrest Sorrels (Secret Service Agent in the lead car in front of the Presidential limousine): “A motorcycle patrolman pulled up alongside of the car and Chief Curry yelled, ‘Is anybody hurt?’, to which the officer responded in the affirmative.”

* Chief Jesse Curry (in the lead car in front of the Presidential limousine): “. . . about this time a motorcycle officer, I believe it was Officer Chaney, rode up beside us and I asked if something happened back there and he said, ‘Yes,’ and I said ‘Has somebody been shot?” And he said, ‘I think so.’”

There are multiple sources for their testimony, which is corroborated by that of others, including, for example, Marrion Baker, a Dallas Police Officer, who immediately thereafter entered the Book Depository and confronted Lee Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom. Costella’s study provides additional citations.

This stunning new proof of the fabrication of the two most important films of the assassination focuses attention on the agency in immediate control of the most important evidence in the assassination, which was the Secret Service. Indeed, there are more than 15 indications of Secret Service complicity in setting up JFK for the hit, including leaving two Secret Service agents at Love Field; ordering the vehicles in the wrong sequence, with the President’s first instead of in the middle of the motorcade; not welding manhole covers; not covering the open windows; allowing the crowd to spill out into the street; ordering the 112th Military Intelligence unit to “stand down”; directing the accompanying motorcycle officers to not ride forward beyond the rear wheels; taking an improper motorcade route; not responding when shots began to be fired; pulling the limo to the left and to a halt to insure he would be killed; using a bucket of water and sponge to clean blood and brains from the back seat at Parkland Hospital; sending the limo back to Ford Motor Company to be dismantled and rebuilt; and removing autopsy photos and X-rays from Bethesda, making them unavailable during preparation of the autopsy report. The fabrication and distortion of the photographic record is the final missing piece of the complex puzzle of the cover-up in the assassination.

These are not the only indications of Secret Service complicity, Fetzer said. In the wake of the enormous resurgence of interest in the assassination following the release of Oliver Stone’s “JFK”, Congress passed a JFK Records Act creating a five-member civilian board entrusted with the responsibility of declassifying documents and records held by the CIA, the FBI, the Secret Service, and other government organizations, where the panel’s decisions could only be overridden by the President himself, who was then Bill Clinton. Although Clinton never intervened to stop the release of evidence, when the Secret Service learned that the panel wanted copies of Presidential Protection Records for other motorcades involving President Kennedy, instead of releasing them it destroyed them. “I can’t imagine a more telling indication of consciousness of guilt,” said Fetzer, who has edited three books and chaired or co-chaired four conferences on the death of JFK.

Among the most important proofs of film alteration have been those provided by Doug Horne, who became Senior Analyst for Military Affairs for the civilian board (technically, the Assassination Records Review Board or the “ARRB”), and by Rich DellaRosa, who reports having viewed the unaltered film on three occasions. Horne interviewed Homer McMahon, who was then in charge of the color photo section of the National Photo Interpretation Center, who told him that an agent identifying himself as “William Smith” brought him a copy of the film the night of the assassination, asking him to prepare a briefing board for an unidentified official. He said he had viewed the film at least ten times and determined that there had been six to eight impacts from at least three different directions. Horne’s report appears in Murder in Dealey Plaza (2000) along with studies of the medical evidence demonstrating that JFK was hit four times: once in the throat (from in front), once in the back (from behind), and twice in the head (from behind and from in front). So if Connally was hit as many as three times (from the side), there were as many as seven impacts from three directions.

Another fascinating source of information has come from Rich DellaRosa, who today moderates a research site at JFKresearch.com. He reports having seen what appears to be the original film on three occasions. He observed the limo driver steer to the left. The stop was so sudden that it jostled the occupants. This observation is confirmed by close study of the Zapruder film itself, where frames show passengers being thrown forward immediately after the head shot at Frame 313. This indicates that the sequence of events has been reversed. There were actually two head shots before the vehicle resumed its forward movement. DellaRosa’s report can be found as Appendix E of The Great Zapruder Film Hoax (2003), which includes a color photo section that reveals the massive blow-out to the President’s head, which is visible in Frame 374. It corresponds closely to diagrams from physicians and Mantik’s study of the alteration of the cranial X-rays. These fabrications were used to discount witness reports (at least 40, including at Parkland and at Bethsda) of such a blowout.

That Greer pulled the limo to the left and stopped was such powerful proof of Secret Service complicity that it had to be taken out. Jack White, a legendary photo-analyst, has detected dozens and dozens of anomalies in the photos and films from the assassination and has been the most consistent critic of the presumption of authenticity of the film in the history of its study. “The Zapruder film was a necessary part of the plot so the conspirators could control the official story,” White observed. “The motorcade stopping and anything associated with that sequence had to be removed. The lead car pulled to the curb, along with the other cars, and Chaney rode forward to advise Curry. Any actual film of the motorcade at that moment would show chaos—conflicting with the needs of the official story. It had to be massively edited to keep control.”

Earlier studies of the film’s authenticity have included disagreements between eyewitnesses and the film; disagreements between early viewers of the film in November 1963 versus what is currently available; disagreements between the film and other photographs and movies; disagreements between the film and the first two reenactments; and internal inconsistencies in the film. In Assassination Science (1998), David W. Mantik, Ph.D., M.D., laid out a summary of the evidence then available of Zapruder alteration. He observed that Milicent Cranor, an independent investigator, had noticed reports that Chaney had traveled to the lead car, which is not present in the Nix film in PROBE (November-December 1997). Costella's independent research thus substantiates and corroborates earlier studies by Mantik and Cranor, which were not fully appreciated at the time.

In The Great Zapruder Film Hoax (2003), Mantik, who earned a Ph.D. in physics from Wisconsin and an M.D. from Michigan, demonstrated that an early study by Luis Alvarez, a Nobel Prize winner in physics, often cited in support of the film’s authenticity, involved the selective use of evidence, and that an analysis of the Muchmore film —another of perhaps a half-dozen most important films covering various parts of the assassination—showed that it, too, had been subjected to alteration and could not be taken to be authentic. Those who attempt to defend the authenticity of the Zapruder film by contending that its alteration would have required alterations to these other films have lost their presumption that the other films have not been altered. Costella’s proof not only demonstrates the alteration of the Zapruder film in a fashion that even non-experts can see with their own eyes, but also adds the Nix film to the list of those whose authenticity has been impeached.

“The official account presented in The Warren Report (1964) and in Gerald Posner’s Case Closed (1992),” Fetzer said, “is predicated upon the ‘magic bullet’ theory and the authenticity of the films and photographs." The "magic bullet" theory, however, is not only provably false but not even anatomically possible as his study, “Reasoning about Assassinations” (2005), assassinationscience.com/ReasoningAboutAssassinations.pdf , explains. "I have been stunned by the lengths to which some have gone in their attempts to defend the Zapruder film from criticism. Josiah Thompson, author of Six Seconds in Dallas (1967), an analysis based on the film, recently appeared in ‘Oswald’s Ghost,’ an obvious work of disinformation, and asserted, ‘The Zapruder film is the basic evidence in this case’! That is not only an abuse of language—since, as David Lifton, author of Best Evidence (1980), has emphasized, the body is the best evidence—but we have conclusive evidence that the film has been faked.”

Fetzer also expressed disillusionment with Noam Chomsky, who has dismissed the very idea that JFK was taken out by a conspiracy. “Major policy issues were involved here, including withdrawing our advisors from Vietnam, reforming or abolishing the Fed, cracking down on organized crime, and cutting the oil depletion allowance. LBJ wanted to be ‘President of all the people’ and his chance was slipping through his fingers. Even Nixon was quoted in the Dallas paper that morning speculating that he would not be on the ticket in 1964. Discoveries like these indicate high-level complicity by elements of various agencies, including the Secret Service and the FBI. I hope that skeptics like Chomsky and zealots like Thompson finally come to their senses. Not only is the Zapruder film a fake but other films and photographs, such as the Nix and Muchmore, have been altered to conform to it.”

Author's Website: www.d.umn.edu/~jfetzer/

Author's Bio: McKnight Professor Emeritus, University of Minnesota, Duluth; Founder, Scholars for 9/11 Truth; Editor, Assassination Research.

As Chief Curry told me in 1979, he spoke with Chaney on the access ramp to Stemmons. At that time, the McIntire photo was unknown, but now I know that the area to which Curry referred was past McIntire's location. And Mel McIntire's photos were never out of his possession at any time. They were first published in 1983 in a Dallas Times Herald 20th anniversary special.

Gary (Ver)Dunckel-Mack



R: Unger

It is now clear to me that Chaney didn't catch up to the Currie car until AFTER they reached the Stemmons access ramp.

After the McIntire photo's were taken.


Sometimes the devil is right! I always thought, that Mr. Fetzer went to far with his claim, Chaney met the Curry car at DP.

KK



#9 David Andrews

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 06:21 PM

What volume, please, is Chaney's testimony in? It's hard to search my online WCR complete.

+++
P. S. - I've always been a bit unnerved at the "passing of the Old Charter" in the underpass photo third from top. Amazing coincidence.

Edited by David Andrews, 17 January 2010 - 06:30 PM.


#10 James H. Fetzer

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 06:53 PM

Think about it. The limo had to slow in order to come to a stop. Some witnesses saw
it slow and were not well positioned to see that it had come to a complete stop. But
the best positioned witnesses--the motorcycle patrolmen who were accompanying the
limo--reported that it came to a stop. I suspect that some of the reports being posted
have been tweaked by adding words like "almost" and "nearly". Those were not part
of the original reports from these sources. John Costella has collated these reports,
which can be found at assassination research.com under the title, "What Happened on
Elm Street? The Witnesses Speak", v5n1costella-1.pdf, pages 79-86, which includes
citations. This can be downloaded. If you want to know what happened, read this!

Remember eyewitness testimony takes precedence over photographs and films in courts
of law. They are not even admissible without being authenticated by witnesses.
Why would one person, much less more than a dozen, report a stop if there were none?
There even appears to be some agreement between them about where the limo stopped.
Those who reported the stop included Roy Truly and at least four motorcycle patrolmen.
How can Hargis, Chaney, and Martin report that the limo stopped and be wrong about it?
They were in the best possible position to observe it. They were ridding right beside it!
The probability of the evidence (these reports) if the limo came to a stop is extremely
high; the probability of the evidence if the limo did not come to a stop is extremely low.
The evidence not only favors the hypothesis, but there is enough to make it acceptable.

Said the limousine stopped (personal observation):

4) DPD motorcycle officer James W. Courson (one of two mid-motorcade motorcycles) — "The limousine came to a stop and Mrs. Kennedy was on the back. I noticed that as I came around the corner at Elm. Then the Secret Service agent [Clint Hill] helped push her back into the car, and the motorcade took off at a high rate of speed." ["No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 129];

6) Clemon Earl Johnson---"You could see it [the limo] speed up and then stop, then speed up, and you could see it stop while they [sic; Clint Hill] threw Mrs. Kennedy back up in the car. Then they just left out of there like a bat of the eye and were just gone." ["No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 80];

10) DPD Earle Brown — The first I noticed the [JFK's] car was when it stopped ... after it made the turn and when the shots were fired, it stopped." [6 H 233];

11) DPD motorcycle officer Bobby Hargis (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists) — "At that time [immediately before the head shot] the Presidential car slowed down. I heard somebody say 'Get going.' I felt blood hit me in the face and the Presidential car stopped almost immediately after that." [6 H 294; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb and Perry Adams (1974), p. 71; 6/26/95 videotaped interview with Mark Oakes & Ian Griggs: "That guy (Greer) slowed down, maybe his orders was to slow down slowed down almost to a stop." Like Posner, Hargis feels Greer gave Oswald the chance to kill Kennedy.];

13) DPD James Chaney (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists) — stated that the Presidential limousine stopped momentarily after the first shot (according to the testimony of Mark Lane; corroborated by the testimony of fellow DPD motorcycle officer Marion Baker: Chaney told him that " at the time, after the shooting, from the time the first shot rang out, the car stopped completely, pulled to the left and stopped. Now I have heard several of them say that, Mr. Truly was standing out there, he said it stopped. Several officers said it stopped completely." [2 H 44-45 (Lane)---referring to Chaney's statement as reported in the "Houston Chronicle" dated 11/24/63; 3 H 266 (Baker)];

14) DPD motorcycle officer B.J. Martin (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists) — saw JFK's car stop "just for a moment." ["Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71];

33) Alan Smith---" the car was ten feet from me when a bullet hit the President in the forehead the car went about five feet and stopped." ["Chicago Tribune", 11/23/63, p. 9; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71];

34) Mrs. Ruth M. Smith — confirmed that the Presidential limousine had come to a stop. [CD 206, p. 9; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97];

35) TSBD Supervisor Roy Truly---after the first shot " I saw the President's car swerve to the left and stop somewheres down in the area [it stopped] for a second or two or something like that I just saw it stop." [3 H 221, 266];

39) Billy Lovelady---"I recall that following the shooting, I ran toward the spot where President Kennedy's car had stopped." [22 H 662];

42) Peggy Burney — she stated that JFK's car had come to a stop. ["Dallas Times Herald", 11/24/63; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97; interestingly, during the 11/20/93 C-SPAN "Journalists Remember" conference, Vivian Castleberry of the Dallas Times Herald made the claim that her first cousin, Peggy Burney, was Abraham Zapruder's assistant "and was next to him when he shot his famous film. She called and said, 'Vivian, today I saw the President die.'"!---See Sheldon Inkol's article on this conference in the January 1994 "Fourth Decade"];

50) Bill Newman---after the fatal head shot "the car momentarily stopped and the driver seemed to have a radio or phone up to his ear and he seemed to be waiting on some word. Some Secret Service men reached into their car and came out with some sort of machine gun. Then the cars roared off "; "I've maintained that they stopped. I still say they did. It was only a momentary stop, but" ["Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 70; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 96] "I believe Kennedy's car came to a full stop after the final shot." ["JFK: Breaking The Silence" by Bill Sloan (1993), p. 169] "I believe it was the passenger in the front seat [Roy Kellerman]---there were two men in the front seat---had a telephone or something to his ear and the car momentarily stopped. Now everywhere that you read about it, you don't read anything about the car stopping. And when I say "stopped" I mean very momentarily, like they hit the brakes and just a few seconds passed and then they floorboarded [sic] and accelerated on." [11/20/97 videotaped interview with Bill Law, Mark Row, & Ian Griggs, as transcribed in "November Patriots" by Connie Kritzberg & Larry Hancock (1998), p. 362] "One of the two men in the front seat of the car had a telephone in his hand, and as I was looking back at the car covering my son, I can remember seeing the tail lights of the car, and just for a moment they hesitated and stopped, and then they floorboarded [sic] the car and shot off." ["No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 96];

Said the limousine stopped (reported observation):

2) ABC Reporter Bob Clark (rode in the National Press Pool Car - one of two, nine and ten vehicles behind JFK) — Reported on the air that the limousine stopped on Elm Street during the shooting [WFAA/ ABC, 11/22/63];

8) NBC reporter Robert MacNeil (rode in White House Press Bus, in the first press bus, 12 vehicles behind JFK, still on Main Street at the time) — "The President's driver slammed on the brakes — after the third shot " ["The Way We Were, 1963: The Year Kennedy Was Shot" by Robert MacNeil (1988), p. 193];

[quote name='James H. Fetzer' post='179028' date='Jan 15 2010, 09:39 AM']It isn't rocket science to observe that the limo had to slow in coming to a stop. Some saw
it slowing, others saw it come to a complete stop. There is no reason why they reported
seeing it come to a stop unless they saw it come to a stop. Officer Chaney motored fore-
ward during the stop. He could not have done that unless the limousine had come to a
stop. John Costella has collated the eyewitness reports from Dealey Plaza, which he has
published in assassinationreseach.com. I have published an article about his discovery
in OpEdNews. Do a google search for "New Proof of JFK Film Fakery" for my discussion.

[quote name='Bernice Moore' post='179009' date='Jan 15 2010, 07:22 AM'][quote name='Kathy Beckett' post='178548' date='Jan 11 2010, 04:17 PM']Not quite, Peter.

Duke's post #109 shown here:

http://educationforu...h...ost&p=50316

Here it is:(in bolds)
"Many thanks to Bernice Moore for taking the time to type in all of the quotes of the 59 witnesses in the "Delay on Elm Street" article in Murder in Dealey Plaza. I've glanced at samples of what is in MIDP and find these are faithful reproductions. I've added ellipses to some of the longer quotes, and underlined what the witnesses said about the limousine and/or motorcade for my analysis below. Some of the ellipses and comments are in the original (or may be Bernice's?).

I'm going to retract my statement that "the 59 witnesses are wrong" and say that it is merely one writer and "authority" on this issue who was mistken. (Jack, I'll trade you the phone number of your crack dealer for my remedial reading instructor's!)

I've gone through the quotes referenced and rearranged them as summarized here and quoted in full below. I've kept their "witness number" with their names so anyone can review what is said here with the book (which you have one, if you're clearly a "real researcher!").

This is what they said:
Said the limousine stopped - 14, two of whom reported it as others' observations, not as their own (net: 12)
Said the limousine slowed - 18, two of whom reported it as others' observations, not as their own (net: 15)
Said the motorcade stopped or slowed - 13.
Said the limousine sped up after the shots - seven
Did not specify according to above - seven

That's a total of 59, less the four who merely reported on other people's observations, for a net total of 55. This, as we will see, is not "59 witnesses who say the limousine stopped" as Jack White posited, but rather 12 who did (plus two who said other people said that it did ... and those other people may already be quoted ...?), or less than 25% of the people who offered a direct opinion (12/55=21.81%).

(I am taking everyone in sum total, that is, not accounting for whether it was said "on the record" - i.e., under oath - or in an informal setting, or whether it was said contemporaneously or several years after the fact.)

Note that some of these people may have said more than one thing, for example that the limo stopped, then accelerated after the shooting. In that case, they are listed under "limo stopped," and not under "limo sped up." If they only said that the limo sped up, or that it was already going slow and sped up, they are under "sped up." If they were unsure - e.g., "looked like it slowed down or stopped," this is not a positive statement as to stopping, so it is under "slowed down." Ditto, "paused" is not clear that it "stopped."

If they stated that the motorcade stopped, they are listed under the "motorcade" section because they did not specifically mention the limo or "the President's car" or anything like that, merely the "parade." (For example, one witness, L.P. Terry (#36), said "the parade stopped in front of the building." Since we know that the limo did not stop "in front of the building," it is a clear reference to the follow-up cars and busses, i.e., the rest of the parade and not the limo specifically.)

If they contradicted themselves (e.g., said one thing in 1963 and another in 1975), they are categorized under what they said earliest.

I may edit this somewhat based upon where someone was at the time, for example a motorcycle cop who was maybe still on Main Street could not have personally observed the limo do much of anything. I have added locations when known.

I don't think that anyone has disputed that the limousine slowed down and that the brake lights came on. The question is whether it stopped and, consequently, the Z-film has been faked. Well, we now know that 59 witnesses did not say the limo stopped, and out of them only 13 might actually have made this observation personally, or less than 25%. (Some of them really didn't say anything at all in this respect.)

If anyone thinks that, based upon what's in MIDP, my evaluation of their statements should change - i.e., what category they're in - let me know and maybe I will. tongue.gif

[quote](59 Witnesses: Delay on Elm Street (Revised update-1998) by Vince Palamara)
Said the limousine stopped (personal observation):
4) DPD motorcycle officer James W. Courson (one of two mid-motorcade motorcycles) — "The limousine came to a stop and Mrs. Kennedy was on the back. I noticed that as I came around the corner at Elm. Then the Secret Service agent [Clint Hill] helped push her back into the car, and the motorcade took off at a high rate of speed." ["No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 129];

6) Clemon Earl Johnson---"You could see it [the limo] speed up and then stop, then speed up, and you could see it stop while they [sic; Clint Hill] threw Mrs. Kennedy back up in the car. Then they just left out of there like a bat of the eye and were just gone." ["No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 80];

10) DPD Earle Brown — The first I noticed the [JFK's] car was when it stopped ... after it made the turn and when the shots were fired, it stopped." [6 H 233];

11) DPD motorcycle officer Bobby Hargis (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists) — "At that time [immediately before the head shot] the Presidential car slowed down. I heard somebody say 'Get going.' I felt blood hit me in the face and the Presidential car stopped almost immediately after that." [6 H 294; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb and Perry Adams (1974), p. 71; 6/26/95 videotaped interview with Mark Oakes & Ian Griggs: "That guy (Greer) slowed down, maybe his orders was to slow down slowed down almost to a stop." Like Posner, Hargis feels Greer gave Oswald the chance to kill Kennedy.];

13) DPD James Chaney (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists) — stated that the Presidential limousine stopped momentarily after the first shot (according to the testimony of Mark Lane; corroborated by the testimony of fellow DPD motorcycle officer Marion Baker: Chaney told him that " at the time, after the shooting, from the time the first shot rang out, the car stopped completely, pulled to the left and stopped. Now I have heard several of them say that, Mr. Truly was standing out there, he said it stopped. Several officers said it stopped completely." [2 H 44-45 (Lane)---referring to Chaney's statement as reported in the "Houston Chronicle" dated 11/24/63; 3 H 266 (Baker)];

14) DPD motorcycle officer B.J. Martin (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists) — saw JFK's car stop "just for a moment." ["Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71];

33) Alan Smith---" the car was ten feet from me when a bullet hit the President in the forehead the car went about five feet and stopped." ["Chicago Tribune", 11/23/63, p. 9; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71];

34) Mrs. Ruth M. Smith — confirmed that the Presidential limousine had come to a stop. [CD 206, p. 9; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97];

35) TSBD Supervisor Roy Truly---after the first shot " I saw the President's car swerve to the left and stop somewheres down in the area [it stopped] for a second or two or something like that I just saw it stop." [3 H 221, 266];

39) Billy Lovelady---"I recall that following the shooting, I ran toward the spot where President Kennedy's car had stopped." [22 H 662];

42) Peggy Burney — she stated that JFK's car had come to a stop. ["Dallas Times Herald", 11/24/63; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97; interestingly, during the 11/20/93 C-SPAN "Journalists Remember" conference, Vivian Castleberry of the Dallas Times Herald made the claim that her first cousin, Peggy Burney, was Abraham Zapruder's assistant "and was next to him when he shot his famous film. She called and said, 'Vivian, today I saw the President die.'"!---See Sheldon Inkol's article on this conference in the January 1994 "Fourth Decade"];

50) Bill Newman---after the fatal head shot "the car momentarily stopped and the driver seemed to have a radio or phone up to his ear and he seemed to be waiting on some word. Some Secret Service men reached into their car and came out with some sort of machine gun. Then the cars roared off "; "I've maintained that they stopped. I still say they did. It was only a momentary stop, but" ["Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 70; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 96] "I believe Kennedy's car came to a full stop after the final shot." ["JFK: Breaking The Silence" by Bill Sloan (1993), p. 169] "I believe it was the passenger in the front seat [Roy Kellerman]---there were two men in the front seat---had a telephone or something to his ear and the car momentarily stopped. Now everywhere that you read about it, you don't read anything about the car stopping. And when I say "stopped" I mean very momentarily, like they hit the brakes and just a few seconds passed and then they floorboarded [sic] and accelerated on." [11/20/97 videotaped interview with Bill Law, Mark Row, & Ian Griggs, as transcribed in "November Patriots" by Connie Kritzberg & Larry Hancock (1998), p. 362] "One of the two men in the front seat of the car had a telephone in his hand, and as I was looking back at the car covering my son, I can remember seeing the tail lights of the car, and just for a moment they hesitated and stopped, and then they floorboarded [sic] the car and shot off." ["No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 96];


Said the limousine stopped (reported observation):
2) ABC Reporter Bob Clark (rode in the National Press Pool Car - one of two, nine and ten vehicles behind JFK) — Reported on the air that the limousine stopped on Elm Street during the shooting [WFAA/ ABC, 11/22/63];

8) NBC reporter Robert MacNeil (rode in White House Press Bus, in the first press bus, 12 vehicles behind JFK, still on Main Street at the time) — "The President's driver slammed on the brakes — after the third shot " ["The Way We Were, 1963: The Year Kennedy Was Shot" by Robert MacNeil (1988), p. 193];


Said the limousine almost stopped, or slowed (personal observation):
3) UPI White House Reporter Merriman Smith (rode in the same car as Clark, above, 8 cars behind limo, still on Houston St) "The President's car, possibly as much as 150 or 200 yards ahead, seemed to falter briefly" [UPI story, 11/23/63, as reported in "Four Days", UPI, p. 32];

7) Malcolm Summers — "Then there was some hesitation in the caravan itself, a momentary halt, to give the Secret Service man [Clint Hill] a chance to catch up with the car and jump on. It seems to me that it started back up by the time he got to the car "["No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 104];

12) DPD D.V. Harkness — "I saw the first shot and the President's car slow[ed] down to almost a stop I heard the first shot and saw the President's car almost come to a stop and some of the agents [were] piling on the car." [6 H 309];

15) DPD motorcycle officer Douglas L. Jackson (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists) — stated " that the car just all but stopped just a moment." ["Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71];

18) Secret Service Agent Sam Kinney (driver of the follow-up car behind JFK's limo) — indicates, via his report to Chief Rowley, that Greer hit the gas after the fatal head shot to JFK and after the President's slump to the left toward Jackie. [18 H 731-732]. From the HSCA's 2/26/78 interview of Kinney: "He also remarked that 'when Greer (the driver of the Presidential limousine) looked back, his foot must have come off the accelerator' Kinney observed that at the time of the first shot, the speed of the motorcade was '3 to 5 miles an hour.'" [RIF#180-10078-10493; author's interviews with Kinney, 1992-1994];

20) Secret Service Agent John Ready (follow-up car) — "I heard what sounded like fire crackers going off from my post on the right front running board. The President's car slowed" [18 H 750];

27) Mrs. Phil (Marilyn) Willis---after the fatal head shot, "she stated the Presidential limousine paused momentarily and then sped away under the Triple Underpass." [FBI report dated 6/19/64; "Photographic Whitewash" by Harold Weisberg (1967), p. 179];

37) Ochus V. Campbell — after hearing shots, "he then observed the car bearing President Kennedy to slow down, a near stop, and a motorcycle policeman rushed up. Immediately following this, he observed the car rush away from the scene." [22 H 845];

38) Peggy Joyce Hawkins — she was on the front steps of the TSBD and " estimated that the President's car was less than 50 feet away from her when he was shot, that the car slowed down almost coming to a full stop." ["Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97];

41) Postal Inspector Harry Holmes (from the Post Office Annex, while viewing through binoculars) "The car almost came to a stop, and Mrs. Kennedy pulled loose of him and crawled out over the turtleback of this Presidential car." [7 H 291]. He noticed the car pull to a halt, and Holmes thought: "They are dodging something being thrown." ["The Day Kennedy Was Shot" by Jim Bishop (1967), p. 176];

43) David Broeder--"The President's car paused momentarily, then on orders from a Secret Service agent, spurted ahead." ["Washington Evening Star", 11/23/63, p. 8];

44) Sam Holland — stated that the Presidential limousine slowed down on Elm Street. [taped interview with Holland conducted in April, 1965];

46) Mrs. Herman (Billy P.) Clay---"When I heard the second and third shots I knew someone was shooting at the President. I did not know if the President had been hit, but I knew something was wrong. At this point the car President Kennedy was in slowed and I, along with others, moved toward the President's car. As we neared the car it sped off." [22 H 641];

51) Charles Brehm---"Brehm expressed his opinion that between the first and third shots, the President's car only seemed to move some 10 or 12 feet. It seemed to him that the automobile almost came to a halt after the first shot. After the third shot, the car in which the President was riding increased its speed and went under the freeway overpass and out of sight." [22 H 837-838];

52) Mary Moorman---"She recalls that the President's automobile was moving at the time she took the second picture, and when she heard the shots, and has the impression that the car either stopped momentarily or hesitated and then drove off in a hurry." [22 H 838-839];

54) James Leon Simmons---"The car stopped or almost stopped." [2/15/69 Clay Shaw trial testimony; "Forgive My Grief Vol. III" by Penn Jones, p. 53; "High Treason" by Groden & Livingstone (1990 Berkley Edition), p. 22];


Said the limousine almost stopped (reported observation):
1) Houston Chronicle Reporter Bo Byers (rode in White House Press Bus) — twice stated that the Presidential Limousine "almost came to a stop, a dead stop"; in fact, he has had nightmares about this. [C-SPAN, 11/20/93, "Journalists Remember The Kennedy Assassination"; see also the 1/94 "Fourth Decade": article by Sheldon Inkol];

31) Dallas Morning News reporter Mary Woodward (Pillsworth)---" Instead of speeding up the car, the car came to a halt."; she saw the President's car come to a halt after the first shot. Then, after hearing two more shots, close together, the car sped up. [2 H 43 (Lane); DMN, 11/23/63; 24 H 520; "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" 1988]. She spoke forcefully about the car almost coming to a stop and the lack of proper reaction by the Secret Service in 1993. [C-SPAN, 11/20/93, "Journalists Remember The Kennedy Assassination"; see also the 1/94 "Fourth Decade": article by Sheldon Inkol];


Said the motorcade came to a stop or slowed (did not specify limousine):
5) DPD motorcycle officer Bobby Joe Dale (one of two rear mid-motorcade motorcycles, positioned in front of the first press bus, 12 vehicles behind JFK, still on Main Street at the time) — "After the shots were fired, the whole motorcade came to a stop. I stood and looked through the plaza, noticed there was commotion, and saw people running around his [JFK's] car. It started to move, then it slowed again; that's when I saw Mrs. Kennedy coming back on the trunk and another guy [Clint Hill] pushing her back into the car." ["No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 134];

9) AP photographer Henry Burroughs (rode in Camera Car #2) — (eight cars behind the limo, still on Houston St) "we heard the shots and the motorcade stopped." [letter, Burroughs to Palamara, dated 10/14/98];

16) Texas Highway Patrolman Joe Henry Rich (drove LBJ's car) — stated that "the motorcade came to a stop momentarily." ["Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71];

26) Phil Willis — "The [Presidential] party had come to a temporary halt before proceeding on to the underpass." [7 H 497; "Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 24];

30) Dallas Morning News reporter Robert Baskin (rode in the National Press Pool Car, 8 to 9 cars behind limo, still on Houston or Main (there was no "the" National Press Pool Car, there were three — stated that " the motorcade ground to a halt." ["Dallas Morning News", 11/23/63, p. 2; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71];

36) L.P. Terry — "The parade stopped right in front of the building [TSBD]." ["Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 26];

40) An unnamed witness---from his vantage point in the courthouse building — stated that "The cavalcade stopped there and there was bedlam." ["Dallas Times Herald", 11/24/63; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97];

45) Maurice Orr — noted that the motorcade stopped. [Arch Kimbrough, Mary Ferrell, and Sue Fitch, "Chronology", unpublished manuscript; see also "Conspiracy" by Anthony Summers, pages 20 & 23];

47) Mrs. Rose Clark---"She noted that the President's automobile came almost to a halt following the three shots, before it picked up speed and drove away." [24 H 533];

53) Jean Hill---"The motorcade came to almost a halt at the time the shots rang out and I would say it [JFK's limo] was just approximately, if not---it couldn't have been in the same position, I'm sure it wasn't, but just a very, very short distance from where it had been. It [JFK's limo] was just almost stunned." [6 H 208-209; Hill's testimony on this matter was dramatized in the Oliver Stone movie "JFK" (1991): "The driver had stopped-I don't know what was wrong with that driver." See also "JFK: The Book of the Film" (1992), p. 122. Therein is referenced a March 1991 conversation with Jean Hill.];

55) Norman Similas---"The Presidential limousine had passed me and slowed down slightly." ["Liberty" Magazine, 7/15/64, p. 13; "Photographic Whitewash" by Harold Weisberg (1967), p. 233];

57) Presidential aide Dave Powers (rode in the follow-up car)---" At that time we were traveling very slowly At about the time of the third shot, the President's car accelerated sharply." [7 H 473-475]. On 11/22/88, Powers was interviewed by CBS' Charles Kuralt. Powers remarked about the remorse Greer felt about not speeding up in time to save JFK"s life and agreed with Kuralt that, if Greer had sped up BEFORE the fatal head shot instead of afterwards, JFK might still be alive today [CBS, 11/22/88---this is a very dramatic and compelling short interview]. If that weren't enough, the ARRB's Tom Samoluk told me that, during the course of an interview he conducted in 1996 in which the Board was in the process of obtaining Powers' film, Powers said that he agreed with my take on the Secret Service!;

58) Texas Senator Ralph Yarborough (rode in LBJ's car) — "When the noise of the shot was heard, the motorcade slowed to what seemed to me a complete stop (though it could have been a near stop) After the third shot was fired, but only after the third shot was fired, the cavalcade speeded up, gained speed rapidly, and roared away to the Parkland Hospital."; " The cars all stopped. I put in there [his affidavit], 'I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings but for the protection of future Presidents, they [the Secret Service] should be trained to take off when a shot is fired." [7 H 439-440; "Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 482; see also "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" 1988: "The Secret Service in the car in front of us kind of casually looked around and were rather slow to react."];


Said the limousine sped up after the shots:
19) Secret Service Agent Clint Hill (follow-up car, rear of limo) — " I jumped from the follow-up car and ran toward the Presidential automobile. I heard a second firecracker-type noise SA Greer had, as I jumped onto the Presidential automobile, accelerated the Presidential automobile forward." [18 H 742; Nix film; "The Secret Service" and "Inside The Secret Service" videos from 1995];

21) Secret Service Agent Glen Bennett (follow-up car)---after the fatal head shot "the President's car immediately kicked into high gear." [18 H 760; 24 H 541-542]. During his 1/30/78 HSCA interview, Bennett said the follow-up car was moving at "10-12 m.p.h.", an indication of the pace of the motorcade on Elm Street [RIF#180-10082-10452];

24) Secret Service Agent William "Tim" McIntyre (follow-up car) — "He stated that Greer, driver of the Presidential limousine, accelerated after the third shot." [RIF#180-10082-10454: 1/31/78 HSCA interview];

28) Mrs. John (Nellie) Connally (rode in JFK's limo) — JFK's car did not accelerate until after the fatal head shot. [4 H 147; WR 50; "Best Evidence" by David Lifton (1988), p. 122];

29) Texas Governor John Connally (rode in JFK's limo and himself a victim of the assassination) — "After the third shot, I heard Roy Kellerman tell the driver, 'Bill, get out of line.' And then I saw him move, and I assumed he was moving a button or something on the panel of the automobile, and he said 'Get us to a hospital quick' at about this time, we began to pull out of the cavalcade, out of line." [4 H 133; WR50; "Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 13];

32) AP photographer James Altgens — "He said the President's car was proceeding at about ten miles per hour at the time [of the shooting] Altgens stated the driver of the Presidential limousine apparently realized what had happened and speeded up toward the Stemmons Expressway." [FBI report dated 6/5/64; "Photographic Whitewash" by Harold Weisberg (1967), p. 203] "The car's driver realized what had happened and almost if by reflex speeded up toward the Stemmons Expressway." [AP dispatch, 11/22/63; "Cover-Up" by Stewart Galanor (1998), Document 28];

59) First Lady Jacqueline Kennedy (rode in the Presidential limousine)---"We could see a tunnel in front of us. Everything was really slow then [immediately after shooting] And just being down in the car with his head in my lap. And it just seemed an eternity And finally I remember a voice behind me, or something, and then I remember the people in the front seat, or somebody, finally knew something was wrong, and a voice yelling, which must have been Mr. Hill, "Get to the hospital," or maybe it was Mr. Kellerman, in the front seat.We were really slowing turning the corner [Houston&Elm] I remember a sensation of enormous speed, which must have been when we took off those poor men in the front" [5 H 179-181]


Did not specify fully:
17) DPD J.W. Foster — stated that " immediately after President Kennedy was struck the car in which he was riding pulled to the curb." [CD 897, pp. 20, 21; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97];

22) Secret Service Agent " " Johns (V.P. follow-up car) — "I felt that if there was danger [it was] due to the slow speed of the automobile." [18 H 774]. During his 8/8/78 HSCA interview, Johns said that "Our car was moving very slowly", a further indication of the pace of the motorcade on Elm Street [RIF# 180-10074-10079; Altgens photo];

23) Secret Service Agent Winston Lawson (rode in the lead car) — "I think it [the lead car on Elm Street] was a little further ahead [of JFK's limo] than it had been in the motorcade, because when I looked back we were further ahead." [4 H 352], an indication of the lag in the limo during the assassination.;

25) Mrs. Earle ("Dearie") Cabell (rode in the Mayor's car, positioned 4 cars behind the limo, taking turn onto Elm St.) — the motorcade "stopped dead still when the noise of the shot was heard." [7 H 487; "Accessories After the Fact" by Sylvia Meagher (1967), p. 4; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71];

48) Hugh Betzner---"I looked down the street and I could see the President's car and another one and they looked like the cars were stopped then the President's car sped on under the underpass." [19 H 467];

49) John Chism---after the shots he saw "the motorcade beginning to speed up." ["Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 29];

56) Presidential Aide Ken O'Donnell (rode in the follow-up car)---" If the Secret Service men in the front had reacted quicker to the first two shots at the President's car, if the driver had stepped on the gas before instead of after the fatal third shot was fired, would President Kennedy be alive today? [as quoted in Marrs' "Crossfire", p. 248, based off a passage from O'Donnell & Powers' book "Johnny, We Hardly Knew Ye"] On page 40 of O'Donnell's book "Johnny, We Hardly Knew Ye", the aide reports that "Greer had been remorseful all day, feeling that he could have saved President Kennedy's life by swerving the car or speeding suddenly after the first shots." Indeed, William E. Sale, an airman first class aircraft mechanic assigned to Carswell AFB and who was stationed at Love Field before, during, and after the assassination, stated that "when the agent who was driving JFK's car came back to Air Force One he was as white as a ghost and had to be helped back to the plane *[undated Sale letter, provided to the author by Martin Shackelford];[/quote]
So there ya have it. Does this prove the Z-film a "hoax" or "altered" with regard to the limousine stopping or not based upon 59 witnesses' statements "all" saying it stopped? I think not; what thinks ye?"


--------------------
[/quote]

Kathy there was no quick reply below to reply to this so when i hit reply all was repeated i want to comment on what duke surmized..''Some of the ellipses and comments are in the original (or may be Bernice's?).I made no comments nor eclipses additions etc..it was copied exactly as found.I CHANGE NOTHING AND NEVER HAVE IN POSTING ANY INFORMATION..and never shall..TA ..b
[/quote]
[/quote]

[quote name='J. Raymond Carroll' post='179385' date='Jan 17 2010, 05:53 PM'][quote name='Chris Scally' post='179382' date='Jan 17 2010, 06:38 PM']The limo nearly, almost, practically - but never actually - stopped....
Chris[/quote]

As Huxley said, the great tragedy of science is the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis by an ugly fact.

:ice
[/quote]

Edited by James H. Fetzer, 17 January 2010 - 07:10 PM.


#11 Craig Lamson

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 07:39 PM

Sheesh Jim, did you miss ther memo to STOP including pages of quotes with each post? You special or something?

#12 Paul Rigby

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 09:23 PM

I forgot to mention these quotes from Officer B.W. Hargis' interviews with the HSCA:

On November 16, 1977: "The second shot hit JFK in the head. The presidential car had slowed almost to a stop";
On August 8, 1978: "When the second shot was fired - no doubt gunfire this time as it hit the President's head - the limousine slowed so much it practically stopped...";
On December 29, 1978: "... the limousine slowed and nearly stopped ..."

The limo nearly, almost, practically - but never actually - stopped....

Chris


“Motorcade Cop Tells How It Happened,” Sunday News (New York), 24 November 1963, p.25:

Dallas, Nov. 23 (Special) - B. W. Hargis, 31, Dallas motorcycle patrolman who was riding in President Kennedy’s motorcade, gave this account today of the assassination:

“We turned left onto Elm St. off Houston, about half a block from where it happened. I was right alongside the rear fender on the left hand side of the President’s car, near Mrs. Kennedy.

When I heard the first explosion, I knew it was a shot. I thought that Gov. Connally had been hit when I saw him turn toward the President with a real surprised look.

Splattered With Blood

“The President then looked like he was bent over or that he was leaning toward the Governor, talking to him.

As the President straightened back up, Mrs. Kennedy turned toward him, and that was when he got hit in the side of his head, spinning it around.

I was splattered with blood.

Then I felt something hit me. It could have been concrete or something, but I thought at first I might have been hit.
Then I saw the limousine stop, and I parked my motorcycle at the side of the road, got off and drew my gun.

And They Took Off

“Then this Secret Service agent (in the President’s car) got his wits about him and they took off. The motorcycle officer on the right side of the car was Jim Chaney. He immediately went forward and announced to the chief that the President had been shot.”



#13 Bernice Moore

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 03:31 AM

GIF BY FRANK AQBAT...MANY THANKS...B



Fifty-nine Witnesses: Delay on Elm Street
By Vince Palamara

Updated 1998 edition (based off the original 1991 article "47 Witnesses" that appeared in The Third Decade, Jan/ March 1992

50) Bill Newman---after the fatal head shot "the car momentarily stopped and the driver seemed to have a radio or phone up to his ear and he seemed to be waiting on some word. Some Secret Service men reached into their car and came out with some sort of machine gun. Then the cars roared off…"; "I've maintained that they stopped. I still say they did. It was only a momentary stop, but…" [Crossfire by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 70; Murder From Within by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 96] "I believe Kennedy's car came to a full stop after the final shot." [JFK: Breaking The Silence by Bill Sloan (1993), p. 169] "…I believe it was the passenger in the front seat [Roy Kellerman]---there were two men in the front seat---had a telephone or something to his ear and the car momentarily stopped. Now everywhere that you read about it, you don't read anything about the car stopping. And when I say "stopped" I mean very momentarily, like they hit the brakes and just a few seconds passed and then they floorboarded [sic] and accelerated on." [11/20/97 videotaped interview with Bill Law, Mark Row, & Ian Griggs, as transcribed in November Patriots by Connie Kritzberg & Larry Hancock (1998), p. 362] "One of the two men in the front seat of the car had a telephone in his hand, and as I was looking back at the car covering my son, I can remember seeing the tail lights of the car, and just for a moment they hesitated and stopped, and then they floorboarded [sic] the car and shot off." [No More Silence by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 96];

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/59wit.htm

Edited by Bernice Moore, 22 January 2010 - 05:13 AM.


#14 Jack White

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 03:47 AM

I forgot to mention these quotes from Officer B.W. Hargis' interviews with the HSCA:

On November 16, 1977: "The second shot hit JFK in the head. The presidential car had slowed almost to a stop";
On August 8, 1978: "When the second shot was fired - no doubt gunfire this time as it hit the President's head - the limousine slowed so much it practically stopped...";
On December 29, 1978: "... the limousine slowed and nearly stopped ..."

The limo nearly, almost, practically - but never actually - stopped....

Chris


“Motorcade Cop Tells How It Happened,” Sunday News (New York), 24 November 1963, p.25:

Dallas, Nov. 23 (Special) - B. W. Hargis, 31, Dallas motorcycle patrolman who was riding in President Kennedy’s motorcade, gave this account today of the assassination:

“We turned left onto Elm St. off Houston, about half a block from where it happened. I was right alongside the rear fender on the left hand side of the President’s car, near Mrs. Kennedy.

When I heard the first explosion, I knew it was a shot. I thought that Gov. Connally had been hit when I saw him turn toward the President with a real surprised look.

Splattered With Blood

“The President then looked like he was bent over or that he was leaning toward the Governor, talking to him.

As the President straightened back up, Mrs. Kennedy turned toward him, and that was when he got hit in the side of his head, spinning it around.

I was splattered with blood.

Then I felt something hit me. It could have been concrete or something, but I thought at first I might have been hit.
Then I saw the limousine stop, and I parked my motorcycle at the side of the road, got off and drew my gun.

And They Took Off

“Then this Secret Service agent (in the President’s car) got his wits about him and they took off. The motorcycle officer on the right side of the car was Jim Chaney. He immediately went forward and announced to the chief that the President had been shot.”


Excellent, Paul...a great CONTEMPORANEOUS report, not easily refuted by the know-nothings.

Jack

#15 Bernice Moore

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 03:48 AM

Fifty-nine Witnesses: Delay on Elm Street
By Vince Palamara
Updated 1998 edition (based off the original 1991 article "47 Witnesses" that appeared in The Third Decade, Jan/ March 1992)

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/59wit.htm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-UPI's Four Days (1964), p. 17---In the right hand picture [a frame from the Muchmore film], the driver slams on the brakes and the police escort pulls up."
-Newsweek, 12/2/63, p. 2---"For a chaotic moment, the motorcade ground to an uncertain halt."

-Time, 11/29/63, p. 23---"There was a shocking momentary stillness, a frozen tableau."

-Case Closed by Gerald Posner (1993), p. 234---"Incredibly, Greer, sensing that something was wrong in the back of the car, slowed the vehicle to almost a standstill."
AND
-Gerald Posner, with Dan Rather, on CBS' "Who Killed JFK: The Final Chapter?", 11/19/93---By turning around the second time and looking at JFK as the car slows down, Posner says that "What he [Greer] has done is inadvertantly given Oswald the easiest of the three shots."

1) Houston Chronicle Reporter Bo Byers (rode in White House Press Bus)---twice stated that the Presidential Limousine "almost came to a stop, a dead stop"; in fact, he has had nightmares about this. [C-SPAN, 11/20/93, "Journalists Remember The Kennedy Assassination"; see also the 1/94 Fourth Decade: article by Sheldon Inkol];

2) ABC Reporter Bob Clark (rode in the National Press Pool Car)---Reported on the air that the limousine stopped on Elm Street during the shooting [WFAA/ ABC, 11/22/63];

3) UPI White House Reporter Merriman Smith (rode in the same car as Clark, above)---"The President's car, possibly as much as 150 or 200 yards ahead, seemed to falter briefly" [UPI story, 11/23/63, as reported in Four Days, UPI, p. 32];

4) DPD motorcycle officer James W. Courson (one of two mid-motorcade motorcycles)--"The limousine came to a stop and Mrs. Kennedy was on the back. I noticed that as I came around the corner at Elm. Then the Secret Service agent [Clint Hill] helped push her back into the car, and the motorcade took off at a high rate of speed." [No More Silence by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 129];

5) DPD motorcycle officer Bobby Joe Dale (one of two rear mid-motorcade motorcycles)---"After the shots were fired, the whole motorcade came to a stop. I stood and looked through the plaza, noticed there was commotion, and saw people running around his [JFK's] car. It started to move, then it slowed again; that's when I saw Mrs. Kennedy coming back on the trunk and another guy [Clint Hill] pushing her back into the car." [No More Silence by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 134];

6) Clemon Earl Johnson---"You could see it [the limo] speed up and then stop, then speed up, and you could see it stop while they [sic; Clint Hill] threw Mrs. Kennedy back up in the car. Then they just left out of there like a bat of the eye and were just gone." [No More Silence by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 80];

7) Malcolm Summers---"Then there was some hesitation in the caravan itself, a momentary halt, to give the Secret Service man [Clint Hill] a chance to catch up with the car and jump on. It seems to me that it started back up by the time he got to the car…"[No More Silence by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 104];

8) NBC reporter Robert MacNeil (rode in White House Press Bus)---"The President's driver slammed on the brakes---after the third shot…" [The Way We Were, 1963: The Year Kennedy Was Shot by Robert MacNeil (1988), p. 193];

9) AP photographer Henry Burroughs (rode in Camera Car #2)---"…we heard the shots and the motorcade stopped." [letter, Burroughs to Palamara, dated 10/14/98];

10) DPD Earle Brown---". . . The first I noticed the [JFK's] car was when it stopped..after it made the turn and when the shots were fired, it stopped." [6 H 233];

11) DPD motorcycle officer Bobby Hargis (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists)---". . . At that time [immediately before the head shot] the Presidential car slowed down. I heard somebody say 'Get going.' I felt blood hit me in the face and the Presidential car stopped almost immediately after that." [6 H 294; Murder From Within by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71; 6/26/95 videotaped interview with Mark Oakes & Ian Griggs: "That guy (Greer) slowed down, maybe his orders was to slow down…slowed down almost to a stop." Like Posner, Hargis feels Greer gave Oswald the chance to kill Kennedy.];

12) DPD D.V. Harkness---". . . I saw the first shot and the President's car slow[ed] down to almost a stop…I heard the first shot and saw the President's car almost come to a stop and some of the agents [were] piling on the car." [6 H 309];
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Palamara is a prolific writer on the assassination, and archives of his work can be found both on his own web page, and also on Deanie Richards' JFK Place.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


13) DPD James Chaney (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists)---stated that the Presidential limousine stopped momentarily after the first shot (according to the testimony of Mark Lane; corroborated by the testimony of fellow DPD motorycle officer Marion Baker: Chaney told him that "…at the time, after the shooting, from the time the first shot rang out, the car stopped completely, pulled to the left and stopped…Now I have heard several of them say that, Mr. Truly was standing out there, he said it stopped. Several officers said it stopped completely." [2 H 44-45 (Lane)---refering to Chaney's statement as reported in the Houston Chronicle dated 11/24/63; 3 H 266 (Baker)];

14) DPD motorcycle officer B.J. Martin (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists)---saw JFK's car stop "…just for a moment." [Murder From Within by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71];

15) DPD motorcycle officer Douglas L. Jackson (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists)---stated "…that the car just all but stopped…just a moment." [Murder From Within by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71];

16) Texas Highway Patrolman Joe Henry Rich (drove LBJ's car)---stated that "…the motorcade came to a stop momentarily." [Murder From Within by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71];

17) DPD J.W. Foster---stated that "…immediately after President Kennedy was struck…the car in which he was riding pulled to the curb." [CD 897, pp. 20, 21; Murder From Within by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97];

18) Secret Service Agent Sam Kinney (driver of the follow-up car behind JFK's limo)---indicates, via his report to Chief Rowley, that Greer hit the gas after the fatal head shot to JFK and after the President's slump to the left toward Jackie. [18 H 731-732]. From the HSCA's 2/26/78 interview of Kinney: "He also remarked that 'when Greer (the driver of the Presidential limousine) looked back, his foot must have come off the accelerator'…Kinney observed that at the time of the first shot, the speed of the motorcade was '3 to 5 miles an hour.'" [RIF#180-10078-10493; author's interviews with Kinney, 1992-1994];

19) Secret Service Agent Clint Hill (follow-up car, rear of limo)---"…I jumped from the follow-up car and ran toward the Presidential automobile. I heard a second firecracker-type noise…SA Greer had, as I jumped onto the Presidential automobile, accelerated the Presidential automobile forward." [18 H 742; Nix film; "The Secret Service" and "Inside The Secret Service" videos from 1995];

20) Secret Service Agent John Ready (follow-up car)---"…I heard what sounded like fire crackers going off from my post on the right front running board. The President's car slowed…" [18 H 750];

21) Secret Service Agent Glen Bennett (follow-up car)---after the fatal head shot "the President's car immediately kicked into high gear." [18 H 760; 24 H 541-542]. During his 1/30/78 HSCA interview, Bennett said the follow-up car was moving at "10-12 m.p.h.", an indication of the pace of the motorcade on Elm Street [RIF#180-10082-10452];

22) Secret Service Agent "Lem" Johns (V.P. follow-up car)---"…I felt that if there was danger [it was] due to the slow speed of the automobile." [18 H 774]. During his 8/8/78 HSCA interview, Johns said that "Our car was moving very slowly", a further indication of the pace of the motorcade on Elm Street [RIF# 180-10074-10079; Altgens photo];

23) Secret Service Agent Winston Lawson (rode in the lead car)---"…I think it [the lead car on Elm Street] was a little further ahead [of JFK's limo] than it had been in the motorcade, because when I looked back we were further ahead." [4 H 352], an indication of the lag in the limo during the assassination.;

24) Secret Service Agent William "Tim" McIntyre (follow-up car)---"He stated that Greer, driver of the Presidential limousine, accelerated after the third shot." [RIF#180-10082-10454: 1/31/78 HSCA interview];

25) Mrs. Earle ("Dearie") Cabell (rode in the Mayor's car)---the motorcade "stopped dead still when the noise of the shot was heard." [7 H 487; Accessories After the Fact by Sylvia Meagher (1967), p. 4; Murder From Within by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71];

26) Phil Willis---"…The [Presidential] party had come to a temporary halt before proceeding on to the underpass." [7 H 497; Crossfire by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 24];

27) Mrs. Phil (Marilyn) Willis---after the fatal head shot, "she stated the Presidential limousine paused momentarily and then sped away under the Triple Underpass." [FBI report dated 6/19/64; Photographic Whitewash by Harold Weisberg (1967), p. 179];

28) Mrs. John (Nellie) Connally (rode in JFK's limo)---JFK's car did not accelerate until after the fatal head shot. [4 H 147; WR 50; Best Evidence by David Lifton (1988), p. 122];

29) Texas Governor John Connally (rode in JFK's limo and himself a victim of the assassination)---"…After the third shot, I heard Roy Kellerman tell the driver, 'Bill, get out of line.' And then I saw him move, and I assumed he was moving a button or something on the panel of the automobile, and he said 'Get us to a hospital quick'…at about this time, we began to pull out of the cavalcade, out of line." [4 H 133; WR50; Crossfire by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 13];

30) Dallas Morning News reporter Robert Baskin (rode in the National Press Pool Car)---stated that "…the motorcade ground to a halt." [Dallas Morning News, 11/23/63, p. 2; Murder From Within by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71];

31) Dallas Morning News reporter Mary Woodward (Pillsworth)---"…Instead of speeding up the car, the car came to a halt."; she saw the President's car come to a halt after the first shot. Then, after hearing two more shots, close together, the car sped up. [2 H 43 (Lane); Dallas Morning News, 11/23/63; 24 H 520; "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" 1988]. She spoke forcefully about the car almost coming to a stop and the lack of proper reaction by the Secret Service in 1993. [C-SPAN, 11/20/93, "Journalists Remember The Kennedy Assassination"; see also the 1/94 Fourth Decade: article by Sheldon Inkol];

32) AP photographer James Altgens---"He said the President's car was proceeding at about ten miles per hour at the time [of the shooting]…Altgens stated the driver of the Presidential limousine apparently realized what had happened and speeded up toward the Stemmons Expressway." [FBI report dated 6/5/64; Photographic Whitewash by Harold Weisberg (1967), p. 203] "The car's driver realized what had happened and almost if by reflex speeded up toward the Stemmons Expressway." [AP dispatch, 11/22/63; Cover-Up by Stewart Galanor (1998), Document 28];

33) Alan Smith---"…the car was ten feet from me when a bullet hit the President in the forehead…the car went about five feet and stopped." [Chicago Tribune, 11/23/63, p. 9; Murder From Within by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71];

34) Mrs. Ruth M. Smith---confirmed that the Presidential limousine had come to a stop. [CD 206, p. 9; Murder From Within by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97];

35) TSBD Supervisor Roy Truly---after the first shot "…I saw the President's car swerve to the left and stop somewheres down in the area…[it stopped] for a second or two or something like that…I just saw it stop." [3 H 221, 266];

36) L.P. Terry---"…The parade stopped right in front of the building [TSBD]." [Crossfire by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 26];

37) Ochus V. Campbell---after hearing shots, "he then observed the car bearing President Kennedy to slow down, a near stop, and a motorcycle policeman rushed up. Immediately following this, he observed the car rush away from the scene." [22 H 845];

38) Peggy Joyce Hawkins---she was on the front steps of the TSBD and "…estimated that the President's car was less than 50 feet away from her when he was shot, that the car slowed down almost coming to a full stop." [Murder From Within by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97];

39) Billy Lovelady---"I recall that following the shooting, I ran toward the spot where President Kennedy's car had stopped." [22 H 662];

40) An unnamed witness---from his vantage point in the courthouse building, stated that "The cavalcade stopped there and there was bedlam." [Dallas Times Herald, 11/24/63; Murder From Within by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97];

41) Postal Inspector Harry Holmes (from the Post Office Annex, while viewing through binoculars)---"…The car almost came to a stop, and Mrs. Kennedy pulled loose of him and crawled out over the turtleback of this Presidential car." [7 H 291]. He noticed the car pull to a halt, and Holmes thought: "They are dodging something being thrown." [The Day Kennedy Was Shot by Jim Bishop (1967), p. 176];

42) Peggy Burney---she stated that JFK's car had come to a stop. [Dallas Times Herald, 11/24/63; Murder From Within by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97; interestingly, during the 11/20/93 C-SPAN "Journalists Remember" conference, Vivian Castleberry of the Dallas Times Herald made the claim that her first cousin, Peggy Burney, was Abraham Zapruder's assistant "and was next to him when he shot his famous film. She called and said, 'Vivian, today I saw the President die.'"!---See Sheldon Inkol's article on this conference in the January 1994 Fourth Decade];

43) David Broeder--"…The President's car paused momentarily, then on orders from a Secret Service agent, spurted ahead." [Washington Evening Star, 11/23/63, p. 8];

44) Sam Holland---stated that the Presidential limousine slowed down on Elm Street. [taped interview with Holland conducted in April, 1965];

45) Maurice Orr---noted that the motorcade stopped. [Arch Kimbrough, Mary Ferrell, and Sue Fitch, Chronology, unpublished manuscript; see also Conspiracy by Anthony Summers, pages 20 & 23];

46) Mrs. Herman (Billy P.) Clay---"…When I heard the second and third shots I knew someone was shooting at the President. I did not know if the President had been hit, but I knew something was wrong. At this point the car President Kenedy was in slowed and I, along with others, moved toward the President's car. As we neared the car it sped off." [22 H 641];

47) Mrs. Rose Clark---"…She noted that the President's automobile came almost to a halt following the three shots, before it picked up speed and drove away." [24 H 533];

48) Hugh Betzner---"…I looked down the street and I could see the President's car and another one and they looked like the cars were stopped…then the President's car sped on under the underpass." [19 H 467];

49) John Chism---after the shots he saw "the motorcade beginning to speed up." [Crossfire by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 29];

50) Bill Newman---after the fatal head shot "the car momentarily stopped and the driver seemed to have a radio or phone up to his ear and he seemed to be waiting on some word. Some Secret Service men reached into their car and came out with some sort of machine gun. Then the cars roared off…"; "I've maintained that they stopped. I still say they did. It was only a momentary stop, but…" [Crossfire by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 70; Murder From Within by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 96] "I believe Kennedy's car came to a full stop after the final shot." [JFK: Breaking The Silence by Bill Sloan (1993), p. 169] "…I believe it was the passenger in the front seat [Roy Kellerman]---there were two men in the front seat---had a telephone or something to his ear and the car momentarily stopped. Now everywhere that you read about it, you don't read anything about the car stopping. And when I say "stopped" I mean very momentarily, like they hit the brakes and just a few seconds passed and then they floorboarded [sic] and accelerated on." [11/20/97 videotaped interview with Bill Law, Mark Row, & Ian Griggs, as transcribed in November Patriots by Connie Kritzberg & Larry Hancock (1998), p. 362] "One of the two men in the front seat of the car had a telephone in his hand, and as I was looking back at the car covering my son, I can remember seeing the tail lights of the car, and just for a moment they hesitated and stopped, and then they floorboarded [sic] the car and shot off." [No More Silence by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 96];

51) Charles Brehm---"Brehm expressed his opinion that between the first and third shots, the President's car only seemed to move some 10 or 12 feet. It seemed to him that the automobile almost came to a halt after the first shot…After the third shot, the car in which the President was riding increased its speed and went under the freeway overpass and out of sight." [22 H 837-838];

52) Mary Moorman---"She recalls that the President's automobile was moving at the time she took the second picture, and when she heard the shots, and has the impression that the car either stopped momentarily or hesistated and then drove off in a hurry." [22 H 838-839];

53) Jean Hill---"…The motorcade came to almost a halt at the time the shots rang out and I would say it [JFK's limo] was just approximately, if not---it couldn't have been in the same position, I'm sure it wasn't, but just a very, very short distance from where it had been. It [JFK's limo] was just almost stunned." [6 H 208-209; Hill's testimony on this matter was dramatized in the Oliver Stone movie "JFK" (1991): "The driver had stopped-I don't know what was wrong with that driver." See also JFK: The Book of the Film (1992), p. 122. Therein is referenced a March 1991 conversation with Jean Hill.];

54) James Leon Simmons---"…The car stopped or almost stopped." [2/15/69 Clay Shaw trial testimony; Forgive My Grief Vol. III by Penn Jones, p. 53; High Treason by Groden & Livingstone (1990 Berkley Edition), p. 22];

55) Norman Similas---"…The Presidential limousine had passed me and slowed down slightly." [Liberty Magazine, 7/15/64, p. 13; Photographic Whitewash by Harold Weisberg (1967), p. 233];

56) Presidential Aide Ken O'Donnell (rode in the follow-up car)---"…If the Secret Service men in the front had reacted quicker to the first two shots at the President's car, if the driver had stepped on the gas before instead of after the fatal third shot was fired, would Presdient Kennedy be alive today? [as quoted in Marrs' Crossfire, p. 248, based off a passage from O'Donnell & Powers' book Johnny, We Hardly Knew Ye] On page 40 of O'Donnell's book Johnny, We Hardly Knew Ye, the aide reports that "Greer had been remorseful all day, feeling that he could have saved President Kennedy's life by swerving the car or speeding suddenly after the first shots." Indeed, William E. Sale, an airman first class aircraft mechanic assigned to Carswell AFB and who was stationed at Love Field before, during, and after the assassination, stated that "when the agent who was driving JFK's car came back to Air Force One he was as white as a ghost and had to be helped back to the plane [undated Sale letter, provided to the author by Martin Shackelford];

57) Presidential aide Dave Powers (rode in the follow-up car)---"…At that time we were traveling very slowly…At about the time of the third shot, the President's car accelerated sharply." [7 H 473-475]. On 11/22/88, Powers was interviewed by CBS' Charles Kuralt. Powers remarked about the remorse Greer felt about not speeding up in time to save JFK"s life and agreed with Kuralt that, if Greer had sped up before the fatal head shot instead of afterwards, JFK might still be alive today [CBS, 11/22/88---this is a very dramatic and compelling short interview]. If that weren't enough, the ARRB's Tom Samoluk told me that, during the course of an interview he conducted in 1996 in which the Board was in the process of obtaining Powers' film, Powers said that he agreed with my take on the Secret Service!;

58) Texas Senator Ralph Yarborough (rode in LBJ's car)---"…When the noise of the shot was heard, the motorcade slowed to what seemed to me a complete stop (though it could have been a near stop)…After the third shot was fired, but only after the third shot was fired, the cavalcade speeded up, gained speed rapidly, and roared away to the Parkland Hospital."; "…The cars all stopped. I put in there [his affidavit], 'I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings but for the protection of future Presidents, they [the Secret Service] should be trained to take off when a shot is fired." [7 H 439-440; Crossfire by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 482; see also "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" 1988: "The Secret Service in the car in front of us kind of casually looked around and were rather slow to react."];

59) First Lady Jacqueline Kennedy (rode in the Presidential limousine)---"We could see a tunnel in front of us. Everything was really slow then…[immediately after shooting] And just being down in the car with his head in my lap. And it just seemed an eternity…And finally I remember a voice behind me, or something, and then I remember the people in the front seat, or somebody, finally knew something was wrong, and a voice yelling, which must have been Mr. Hill, "Get to the hospital," or maybe it was Mr. Kellerman, in the front seat…We were really slowing turning the corner [Houston & Elm]…I remember a sensation of enormous speed, which must have been when we took off…those poor men in the front…" [5 H 179-181] Mary Gallagher reported in her book: "She mentioned one Secret Service man who had not acted during the crucial moment, and said bitterly to me, 'He might just as well have been Miss Shaw!'" [My Life With Jacqueline Kennedy by Mary Barelli Gallagher (1969), p. 342---Secret Service Agent Marty Venker and Jackie biographer C. David Heymann confirm that this unnamed agent was indeed Greer (Confessions of an Ex-Secret Service Agent, p. 25; A Woman Called Jackie, p. 401)] Jackie also told Gallagher that "You should get yourself a good driver so that nothing ever happens to you" [Ibid., p. 351]

* William Manchester, who interviewed Greer, tells us what the driver told Jackie on 11/22/63 at Parkland Hospital: "Oh, Mrs. Kennedy, oh my God, oh my God. I didn't mean to do it[?!?!], I didn't hear[who, Kellerman?], I should have swerved the car[how about hitting the gas!], I couldn't help it[!]. Oh, Mrs. Kennedy, as soon as I saw it[?] I swerved. If only I'd seen it in time! Oh!" (Manchester, p.290). 59 witnesses (10 police officers, 7 Secret Service agents, 37 spectators, 2 Presidential aides, 1 Senator, Governor Connally, and Jackie Kennedy) and the Zapruder film document Secret Service agent William R. Greer's deceleration of the presidential limousine, as well as his two seperate looks back at JFK during the assassination (Greer denied all of this to the Warren Commission-2HGREER[see his entire testimony]). By decelerating from an already slow 11.2 mph, Greer greatly endangered the President's life, and, as even Gerald Posner admitted, Greer contributed greatly to the success of the assassination. When we consider that Greer disobeyed a direct order from his superior, Roy Kellerman, to get out of line before the fatal shot struck the President's head, it is hard to give Agent Greer the benefit of the doubt. As ASAIC Roy H. Kellerman said: "Greer then looked in the back of the car. Maybe he didn't believe me"(The Death of a President by William Manchester, p.160). Clearly, Greer was responsible, at fault, and felt remorse. In short, Greer had survivor's guilt.

But, then, stories and feelings changed.

Agent Greer to the FBI 11/22/63: "Greer stated that he first heard what he thought was possibly a motorcycle backfire and glanced around and noticed that the President had evidently been hit [notice that, early on, Greer admits seeing JFK, which the Zapruder proves he did two times before the fatsal head shot occurred]. He thereafter got on the radio and communicated with the other vehicles, stating that they desired to get the President to the hospital immediately [in reality, Greer did not talk on the radio, and Greer went on to deny ever saying this during his WC testimony]…Greer stated that they (the Secret Service) have always been instructed to keep the motorcade moving at a considerable speed inasmuch as a moving car offers a much more difficult target than a vehicle traveling at a very slow speed. He pointed out that on numerous occasions he has attempted to keep the car moving at a rather fast rate, but in view of the President's popularity and desire to maintain close liaison with the people, he has, on occasion, been instructed by the President to "slow down". Greer stated that he has been asking himself if there was any thing he could have done to have avoided this incident, but stated that things happened so fast that he could not account for full developments in this matter(!) [the "JFK-as-scapegoat" theme…and so much for Greer's remorse from earlier the same day!]."(Sibert & O'Neil Report, 11/22/63)

Agent Greer to the FBI 11/27/63: "…he heard a noise which sounded like a motorcycle backfire. On hearing this noise he glanced to his right toward Kellerman and out of the corner of his eye noticed that the Governor appeared to be falling toward his wife [notice that Greer now mentions nothing about seing JFK hit---he does the same thing in his undated report in the WC volumes (18 H 723)] He thereafter recalls hearing some type of outcry after which Kellerman said, "Let's get out of here." He further related that at the time of hearing the sound he was starting down an incline which passes beneath a railroad crossing and after passing under this viaduct, he closed in on the lead car and yelled to the occupants and a nearby police motorcyclist, "Hospital, Hospital! [nothing about using the radio this time out]" Thereafter follows a complete physical description of Greer, as if the FBI agents considered him a suspect, inc. age, height, and color of eyes! (Sibert & O'Neil Report, 11/29/63)

Critical excerpts from Greer's 3/9/64 Warren Commission testimony before Arlen Specter:

Mr. Specter. Were you able to see anything of President Kennedy as you glanced to the rear?
Mr. Greer. No, sir; I didn't see anything of the President, I didn't look, I wasn't far enough around to see the President.

Mr. Specter. When you started that glance, are you able to recollect whether you started to glance before, exactly simultaneously with or after that second shot?

Mr. Greer. It was almost simultaneously that he had--something had hit, you know, when I had seen him. It seemed like in the same second almost that something had hit, you know, whenever I turned around. I saw him start to fall.

Mr. Specter. Did you step on the accelerator before, simultaneously or after Mr. Kellerman instructed you to accelerate?

Mr. Greer. It was about simultaneously.

Mr. Specter. So that it was your reaction to accelerate prior to the time--

Mr. Greer. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. You had gotten that instruction?

Mr. Greer. Yes, sir; it was my reaction that caused me to accelerate.

Mr. Specter. Do you recollect whether you accelerated before or at the same time or after the third shot?

Mr. Greer. I couldn't really say. Just as soon as I turned my head back from the second shot, right away I accelerated right then. It was a matter of my reflexes to the accelerator.

Mr. Specter. Was it at about that time that you heard the third shot?

Mr. Greer. Yes, sir; just as soon as I turned my head

[…]

Mr. Specter. To the best of your current recollection, did you notice that the President had been hit?

Mr. Greer. No, sir; I didn't know how badly he was injured or anything other than that. I didn't know.

Mr. Specter. Did you know at all, from the glance which you have described that he had been hit or injured in any way?

Mr. Greer. I knew he was injured in some way, but I didn't know how bad or what.

Mr. Specter. How did you know that?

Mr. Greer. If I remember now, I just don't remember how I knew, but I knew we were in trouble. I knew that he was injured, but I can't remember, recollect, just how I knew there were injuries in there. I didn't know who all was hurt, even.

Mr. Specter. Are you able to recollect whether you saw the President after the shots as you were proceeding toward Parkland Hospital?

Mr. Greer. No; I don't remember ever seeing him any more until I got to the hospital, and he was lying across the seat, you know, and that is the first I had seen of him.

Mr. Specter. Your best recollection is, then, that you had the impression he was injured but you couldn't ascertain the source of that information?

Mr. Greer. Right. I couldn't ascertain the source.

Warren Commission finding: "The driver, Special Agent William R. Greer, has testified that he accelerated the car after what was probably the second shot...The Presidential car did not stop or almost come to a complete halt after the firing of the first shot or any other shots."(WC Report, page 641)

11/19/64 interview with Death of a President author William Manchester [RIF#180-10116-10119]---"After the second shot I glanced back. I saw blood on the Governor's white shirt, and I knew we were in trouble. The blood was coming out of his right breast. When I heard the first shot, I had thought it was a backfire. I was tramping on the accelerator and at the same time Roy was saying, let's get out of here fast."

But remember what Roy Kellerman said: "Greer then looked in the back of the car. Maybe he didn't believe me"(The Death of a President by William Manchester, p.160).

2/28/78 HSCA interview [RIF#180-10099-10491]---"The first shot sounded to him like a backfire. He did not react to it. After the second shot he turned to his right and saw blood on Governor Connally's shirt. At the same moment he heard Kellerman say "We're hit. Let's get out of here," or words to that effect. He said he immediately accelerated and followed the pilot car to Parkland Hospital [However, DNC Advance man Jack Puterbaugh, who rode in the pilot car, said they "pulled over and let the motorcade pass" (HSCA interview 4/14/78). The Washington Post from 2/28/85 reported Greer as saying that "I just looked straight ahead at the car in which the police chief was leading our way to the hospital"---this is the lead car. Nevertheless, the Daniel film and still photos depict the limousine ahead of the lead car, as it appear it was the lead motorcyclists who actually guided Greer to Parkland! (see pp. 21-22 and 59 of The Third Alternative by the author)]

Bill Greer passed away from Cancer on 2/23/85.

The End?---

From a 9/17/91 interview with Bill's son Richard:

When asked, "What did your father think of JFK," Richard did not respond the first time. When this author asked him a second time, he responded: "Well, we're Methodists..and JFK was Catholic..." (Bill Greer was born and raised in County Tyrone, Ireland; 2 H 112 - 113)

"My father certainly didn't blame himself; it's not one of those things - if only I was driving one mile per hour faster

"My father had absolutely no survivor's guilt...he figured that events were kind out of their control...it was pretty common knowledge that a person riding in an open car was subject to a bullet at any time..."

The End.


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Edited by Bernice Moore, 18 January 2010 - 03:52 AM.





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