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#1 Kathleen Collins

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 05:05 AM

There is much info about John Jr's death on the Internet. This one is very interesting. The author wants this "news" emailed to friends. So I'm "emailing" it here. It comes from Lovearth. Also there was a book on this subject. Len Osanic interviewed the author who connected HW and President K; and W to John Jr. Don't remember the name. Blackopradio.com

Kathy C

"Was John F. Kennedy Jr. Murdered?

Judge For Yourself

The report of the National Transportation Safety Board came out on August 8, 2000, 13 months after the plane crash of JFK Jr. It contradicts many of the lies pushed in the media. For example, the L.A. Times reported "The accident that killed Kennedy was caused by an inexperienced pilot .. the NTSB concluded in its final report" (LA TIMES, 7/7/00, page 1). In fact, the NTSB report shows that Kennedy was highly experienced (he had more than enough hours for an instructor's license), he was described by his trainers as "excellent", "methodical", and "very cautious." (NTSB report, page 3) The media say the visibility was poor. But the NTSB quotes the Tower manager at Martha's Vineyard, where the plane went down, saying that there were "stars out" and visibility was "between 10 and 12 miles" (NTSB report, page 5). Why did the media lie? Why have they always lied about the murder of his father?

1) The rescue: This is enormouly important. The FAA radar tracked Kennedy's plane crash. The U.S. Coast Guard has reported that Kennedy contacted the tower on his final approach. THIS IS ENORMOUSLY IMPORTANT!!! It means they would have known his plane was going down before it hit the water. FAA regulations require that a search begin immediately when a plane reports itself on final approach and does not land within 5 minutes. Yet it took them 14½ hours to send the first planes and boats to Martha's Vineyard. (Boston Herald, 7/20/99 "Time gaps in early hours of search are beyond explanation" Jack Sullivan and David Talbot) (LINK5)WHY?

2) The plane: Kennedy's plane had autopilot, capable of flying itself to within 100 feet of the airport. All a "cautious and methodical" pilot had to do was sit back and let the plane fly itself. (NTSB report, page 18)

3) The sabotage: Kennedy's plane had a black box. No other private non-jet plane on earth had one. He knew they wanted to kill him and he wanted to make it hard. The NTSB, says the battery had been removed, destroying all record of conversation in the cockpit. (NTSB page 10) All planes have an Emergency Locator Transmitter (ELT), which sends out a beacon signal in case of a crash. It took 5 days to locate Kennedy's plane. Why? Was it missing? Disabled? The report says nothing. According to the NTSB report, the fuel valve had been turned to OFF (NTSB report, page 12). This valve had a safety device on it so that it could not accidentally be turned to OFF. Turning it off during flight would be suicide, since at top speed, the engine will die in 45 seconds!! Because the results are potentially deadly, the valve cannot be turned by accident. A safety-release button must be pushed down and held while turning the valve. This piece of evidence is the smoking gun. It is positive proof of foul play. Was Kennedy committing suicide? If he wasn't, there can scarcely be any question but that he was murdered. So who turned the valve? Read on. Kennedy's flight logbook is missing. (NTSB report, page 2) This will be seen as critical in one minute, because the logbook would have recorded the presence of a flight instructor on the plane. The media talked about a "graveyard spiral" and various forms of disorientation. The NTSB report describes Kennedy's plane making two mild explainable maneuvers; and then the plan plunged drastically to the right and plummeted straight down, crashing 2600 feet in 45 seconds. It sounds like someone grabbed the controls and suddenly shoved the plane into the water. But this description of a suicide plunge is consistent with the "suicide" position of the fuel valve.

4) The flight instructor: All of the early reports said there was a flight instructor on the plane (e.g. The New York Times, Saturday July 17, 1999). Then the flight instructor disappeared from the reports. Kennedy very rarely flew at night without a flight instructor. Out of 310 hours of flight time, and 55 hours at night, he had only 45 minutes at night without an instructor. (LINK12)He was very cautious. He had his wife on board. It is almost unthinkable that he would not have taken an instructor.

5) Egypt Air 990: Two months later Egyptian Air flight 990, with 30 of the highest ranking members of the Egyptian military on board, crashed. (It was big news for several days. The pilot's family and the Egyptian government objected to the NTSB finding that the pilot was committing suicide. "He was happily married. Moslems don't commit suicide" etc.) This pilot had walked into the cockpit, said "Allah help me', grabbed the controls, and tried to force the plane to crash. Three other pilots, grabbed him, and there was a struggle; he gave up, turned around, and he turned the fuel valve OFF.

Both pilots, Kennedy's flight instructor and the Egyptian, were programmed, using hypnosis or other mind control, to act in exactly the same way. The CIA has settled lawsuits by victims of their mind control experiments, the MK Ultra program. One of the physicians, Dr. John Gittinger, Chief Psychologist of the CIA, tortured by his conscience, has come forward to expose the existence of these programs and their purpose: to create walking, pre-programmed human time bombs, set to go off on cue, taking out their intended victim.

Kennedy's emergency locator was removed, the cockpit recorder was disabled, the flight log was taken, and the body of the flight instructor was removed. (But they forgot to return the fuel valve to ON!!) They delayed the rescue 14 hours to do it. They were waiting in the water for the plane to crash. Who was? Who indeed?

But why would anyone want to kill John Kennedy Jr.? He was planning to run for National office according to Newsweek and People. He told friends he would have run for Senate in New York, but let Hillary Clinton run instead. And he would have won. He was the most popular man in the US. And for good reason. He was a great guy. But he was the only Kennedy to ever acknowledge a conspiracy in his father's death. He not only acknowledge it, he published an article by Oliver Stone, in his magazine, George, about assassination, conspiracies, and lying history books. Who would want to kill him? The people who killed his father had to kill him. Kennedy Jr. was going to go after them."

#2 Bernice Moore

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 05:59 AM

HERE'S THE EARTH LINK TO FURTHER INFO...http://www.john-f-kennedy-jr.com/

http://www.john-f-kennedy-jr.com/



B

Edited by Bernice Moore, 03 February 2010 - 05:59 AM.


#3 Bernice Moore

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 06:04 AM

kathy could this be the book perhaps the site mentions black op radio on the left part way down...b

http://www.cinemapol...a.org/films/297

#4 Guest_John Gillespie_*

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 06:45 AM

There is much info about John Jr's death on the Internet. This one is very interesting. The author wants this "news" emailed to friends. So I'm "emailing" it here. It comes from Lovearth. Also there was a book on this subject. Len Osanic interviewed the author who connected HW and President K; and W to John Jr. Don't remember the name. Blackopradio.com

Kathy C

"Was John F. Kennedy Jr. Murdered?

Judge For Yourself

The report of the National Transportation Safety Board came out on August 8, 2000, 13 months after the plane crash of JFK Jr. It contradicts many of the lies pushed in the media. For example, the L.A. Times reported "The accident that killed Kennedy was caused by an inexperienced pilot .. the NTSB concluded in its final report" (LA TIMES, 7/7/00, page 1). In fact, the NTSB report shows that Kennedy was highly experienced (he had more than enough hours for an instructor's license), he was described by his trainers as "excellent", "methodical", and "very cautious." (NTSB report, page 3) The media say the visibility was poor. But the NTSB quotes the Tower manager at Martha's Vineyard, where the plane went down, saying that there were "stars out" and visibility was "between 10 and 12 miles" (NTSB report, page 5). Why did the media lie? Why have they always lied about the murder of his father?

But why would anyone want to kill John Kennedy Jr.? He was planning to run for National office according to Newsweek and People. He told friends he would have run for Senate in New York, but let Hillary Clinton run instead. And he would have won. He was the most popular man in the US. And for good reason. He was a great guy. But he was the only Kennedy to ever acknowledge a conspiracy in his father's death. He not only acknowledge it, he published an article by Oliver Stone, in his magazine, George, about assassination, conspiracies, and lying history books. Who would want to kill him? The people who killed his father had to kill him. Kennedy Jr. was going to go after them."


________________________________________________________________
Kathy,

How about the front passenger chair missing when the plane was finally discovered and examined?

This is very much worth the watching:

The narration is ok, but the presentation of evidence and video (especially coverage by WCVB-TV Channel 5, Boston and comments from then Channel 5 Anchor Chet Curtis, who is a Pilot himself and explains various requirements for obtaining hours and clarifies a number of flying related issues) is excellent. Anyone seeing this with an open mind is very likely to believe it, as I do.

JG

Edited by John Gillespie, 04 February 2010 - 12:40 AM.


#5 Kathleen Collins

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 12:33 AM

kathy could this be the book perhaps the site mentions black op radio on the left part way down...b

http://www.cinemapol...a.org/films/297



Yes, Bernice, the name of the man was John Hankey. I listened to the blackop show about a year ago.

Kathy C

#6 Kathleen Collins

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 01:29 AM

There is much info about John Jr's death on the Internet. This one is very interesting. The author wants this "news" emailed to friends. So I'm "emailing" it here. It comes from Lovearth. Also there was a book on this subject. Len Osanic interviewed the author who connected HW and President K; and W to John Jr. Don't remember the name. Blackopradio.com

Kathy C

"Was John F. Kennedy Jr. Murdered?

Judge For Yourself

The report of the National Transportation Safety Board came out on August 8, 2000, 13 months after the plane crash of JFK Jr. It contradicts many of the lies pushed in the media. For example, the L.A. Times reported "The accident that killed Kennedy was caused by an inexperienced pilot .. the NTSB concluded in its final report" (LA TIMES, 7/7/00, page 1). In fact, the NTSB report shows that Kennedy was highly experienced (he had more than enough hours for an instructor's license), he was described by his trainers as "excellent", "methodical", and "very cautious." (NTSB report, page 3) The media say the visibility was poor. But the NTSB quotes the Tower manager at Martha's Vineyard, where the plane went down, saying that there were "stars out" and visibility was "between 10 and 12 miles" (NTSB report, page 5). Why did the media lie? Why have they always lied about the murder of his father?

But why would anyone want to kill John Kennedy Jr.? He was planning to run for National office according to Newsweek and People. He told friends he would have run for Senate in New York, but let Hillary Clinton run instead. And he would have won. He was the most popular man in the US. And for good reason. He was a great guy. But he was the only Kennedy to ever acknowledge a conspiracy in his father's death. He not only acknowledge it, he published an article by Oliver Stone, in his magazine, George, about assassination, conspiracies, and lying history books. Who would want to kill him? The people who killed his father had to kill him. Kennedy Jr. was going to go after them."


________________________________________________________________
Kathy,

How about the front passenger chair missing when the plane was finally discovered and examined?

This is very much worth the watching:

The narration is ok, but the presentation of evidence and video (especially coverage by WCVB-TV Channel 5, Boston and comments from then Channel 5 Anchor Chet Curtis, who is a Pilot himself and explains various requirements for obtaining hours and clarifies a number of flying related issues) is excellent. Anyone seeing this with an open mind is very likely to believe it, as I do.

JG


John, I will watch all of it soon. The part of the story that scares me is about the flight instructor being on board. I missed the initial news when he died. I've read the "rescuers" shot an 8 hour film of the whole operation after the instructor was removed. What happened to him? Did he have a family? Maybe his family was paid off. The Besettes were. I don't think John Jr fouled up in that plane. Probably the fuel switch was turned off by the flight instructor.

I don't know why they had to kill him. He was still young and I don't think he was ready for the Presidency. Maybe a senator but not the so-called "top job." He needed more experience, I think. Who knows? I think he would have gone on to something other than the Presidency. His uncle, Robert, was killed seeking that office. I think there were other avenues for him to go down to be influential. His sister did not fare well. I am still surprised that Ted Kennedy wanted Caroline to run for senator. She's a walking target. She shouldn't be in the public eye. Supposedly Jackie made a tape about JFK that she didn't want anyone to hear until her "last child was dead." Well, there's only one now. I read Jackie wanted John to follow in his father's footsteps. That just can't be right.

Kathy C

#7 Don Jeffries

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 06:59 AM

Kathy and others,

I posted this link to a previous discussion we had on this subject a while back on another thread, but it's more appropriate to do so here: http://educationforu...howtopic=14595

There are links there that will direct you to some good sources on the internet.

#8 Len Colby

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 02:42 PM

This account is replete with errors and distortions, the author is dishonest. He (I’m presuming it’s a guy) didn’t provide a link to the NTSB report or to any of the handful of other sources he cited. I assume that’s because he was afraid of his reader’s checking his claims. Unless otherwise noted my info comes from the report. He mentioned page numbers but the report it not subdivided into pages unless you print/print preview it but that will vary depending on your page settings so I don’t use them. Most browsers have a page search function. Though my comments are directed at the essay Kathleen posted most apply to the claims made by others concerning the crash.

The NTSB report: http://www.ntsb.gov/...=...A178&akey=1

[quote name='Kathleen Collins' post='181848' date='Feb 3 2010, 01:05 AM']"Was John F. Kennedy Jr. Murdered?

Judge For Yourself

The report of the National Transportation Safety Board came out on August 8, 2000, 13 months after the plane crash of JFK Jr. It contradicts many of the lies pushed in the media. For example, the L.A. Times reported "The accident that killed Kennedy was caused by an inexperienced pilot .. the NTSB concluded in its final report" (LA TIMES, 7/7/00, page 1). In fact, the NTSB report shows that Kennedy was highly experienced (he had more than enough hours for an instructor's license),[/quote]


Nowhere did the NTSB describe him as experienced, let alone “highly experienced” or anything analogous. To the contrary it said “The CFI [certified flight instructor] stated that the pilot's basic instrument flying skills and simulator work were excellent. However, the CFI stated that the pilot had trouble managing multiple tasks while flying, which he felt was normal for the pilot's level of experience.” And though his 310 flight hours technically were sufficient for a commercial pilot certificate (license), a prerequisite for becoming a flight instructor , he did not meet other requirements for either privilege.

Commercial Certificate: http://ecfr.gpoacces...2.0.1.1.2.6.1.2

CFI: http://www.airweb.fa...ument#_Section1


[quote]he was described by his trainers as "excellent", "methodical", and "very cautious." (NTSB report, page 3)[/quote]

Cherry-picking, in addition to the quote above other instructors said:

The pilot's primary CFI during the instrument training stated that the pilot's progression was normal and that he grasped all of the basic skills needed to complete the course; however, the CFI did recall the pilot having difficulty completing lesson 11, which was designed to develop a student's knowledge of very high frequency omnidirectional radio range (VOR) and nondirectional beacon operations while working with ATC. It took the pilot four attempts to complete lesson 11 satisfactorily.

[…]

The CFI stated that the pilot performed the landing [at Martha’s Vineyard on June 25, 1999 in the Saratoga], but he had to assist with the rudders because of the pilot's injured ankle. (For additional information about the pilot's ankle injury, see Section, "Medical and Pathological Information."). The CFI stated that the pilot's aeronautical abilities and his ability to handle multiple tasks while flying were average for his level of experience.


[…]

A second CFI flew with the pilot between May 1998 and July 1999…On July 1, 1999, the CFI flew with the pilot in the accident airplane to MVY [Martha’s Vineyard]. The flight was conducted at night, and IMC [instrument meteorological conditions] prevailed at the airport. The CFI stated that, during the flight, the pilot used and seemed competent with the autopilot. The instructor added that during the flight the pilot was wearing a nonplaster cast on his leg, which required the CFI to taxi the airplane and assist the pilot with the landing.

The CFI stated that the pilot had the ability to fly the airplane without a visible horizon but may have had difficulty performing additional tasks under such conditions. He also stated that the pilot was not ready for an instrument evaluation as of July 1, 1999, and needed additional training. The CFI was not aware of the pilot conducting any flight in the accident airplane without an instructor on board. He also stated that he would not have felt comfortable with the accident pilot conducting night flight operations on a route similar to the one flown on, and in weather conditions similar to those that existed on, the night of the accident. The CFI further stated that he had talked to the pilot on the day of the accident and offered to fly with him on the accident flight. He stated that the accident pilot replied that "he wanted to do it alone."

[…]

A third CFI flew with the pilot between May 1998 and July 1999…The CFI had made six or seven flights to MVY with the pilot in the accident airplane. The CFI stated that most of the flights were conducted at night and that, during the flights, the pilot did not have any trouble flying the airplane. The instructor stated that the pilot was methodical about his flight planning and that he was very cautious about his aviation decision-making. The CFI stated that the pilot had the capability to conduct a night flight to MVY as long as a visible horizon existed.



So his instructors considered him average but not up to the task he attempted the last night of his life if visibility was poor. Note that only 2 and 3 weeks after twice being unable to land the plane on his own due to his injury while still wearing a cast and using crutches (according to witnesses at the airport) he attempted to fly the same plane to the same airport at night without assistance. According to author Edward Klein, “he had received medical advice not to fly for at least another 10 days," So much for him being “cautious”. A further example of his reckless is that “he never called Flight Service for aviation weather information, for instance, although FAA regulations state that a pilot "should."”*

Klein: http://www.foxnews.c...3,90819,00.html
* http://dir.salon.com...ntsb/index.html

Unlike the essay author Kennedy’s friends didn’t consider him “highly experienced”. On the night of the crash Carole Raziwill, the wife one of his cousins, told the FAA in Boston she was concerned because he was “relatively new, you know, he only got his license a year ago.” According to Klein, one of Kennedy’s friends "expressed concern that John had become overconfident about his flying [and] urged John to view his broken ankle as a warning sign."
Raziwill: http://www.kcby.com/...al/5678731.html
Klein: http://www.foxnews.c...3,90819,00.html

Over water at night added greatly to the difficulty of the flight. According to a Florida newspaper which interviewed CFI’s, “Attempting to land his plane at night on a difficult approach over water, John F. Kennedy Jr. may have been flying in conditions that exceeded his short experience as a pilot, according to flight instructors…Terry Fensome, a flight instructor and owner of Pelican Airways in Hollywood, said flying at night over water was treacherous for even the best pilots”… "Especially coming in over water, it's night and you lose the horizon," said Troy Gold, a flight instructor at Cavair flight school… “If you don't focus on the instruments, you can easily lose control.” "Unfortunately, it's a common way for inexperienced pilots to get themselves killed,"” Another flight instructor wrote, “if he lost the horizon over the dark ocean between Point Judith and the Vineyard, he would have had to negotiate those few minutes of flight by following the gauges. And he may not have had the training for it.”*


Sun Sentinal: http://news.google.c..."...s&scoring=a

* http://dir.salon.com...ntsb/index.html

[quote]The media say the visibility was poor. But the NTSB quotes the Tower manager at Martha's Vineyard, where the plane went down, saying that there were "stars out" and visibility was "between 10 and 12 miles" (NTSB report, page 5). Why did the media lie? Why have they always lied about the murder of his father?[/quote]

Cherry picking again. The NTSB interviewed a pilot who left Teterboro airport [TEB](14 miles from JFK Jr.’s departure airport) for Nantucket [ACK] (about 25 miles form MVY) shortly before Kennedy:

He reported that above 14,000 feet, the visibility was unrestricted; however, he also reported that during his descent to Nantucket, when his global positioning system (GPS) receiver indicated that he was over Martha's Vineyard, he looked down and "...there was nothing to see. There was no horizon and no light....I turned left toward Martha's Vineyard to see if it was visible but could see no lights of any kind nor any evidence of the island...I thought the island might [have] suffered a power failure."

He stated that he had his strobe lights on during the descent and that at no time did they illuminate clouds or fog. He also stated, "I had no visual reference of any kind yet was free of any clouds or fog." The pilot stated that when he contacted the ACK tower for landing, he was instructed to fly south of Nantucket about 5 miles to join the downwind for runway 24; however, he maintained a distance of 3 to 4 miles because he could not see the island at 5 miles. The pilot stated that, as he neared the airport, he had to make a 310-degree turn for spacing. He stated that, during the turn, "I found that I could not hold altitude by outside reference and had to use my [vertical speed indicator] VSI and HSI to hold altitude and properly coordinate the turn."



This pilot was obviously far more experienced than Kennedy; he had to make an instrument landing, something the “First Son” was not qualified to do in daytime let alone at night with an injured foot, was only a third of the way through his instrument training. Remember he failed his VOR/Beacon test three times. Other pilots gave similar reports:

A third pilot departed TEB about 2030 destined for Groton, Connecticut, after a stopover at MVY. He stated that, after departure, he flew south of HPN [Westchester County Airport ‎] and , remaining clear of the Class B airspace, he climbed to 7,500 feet. He also stated that, while en route, he monitored several ATC frequencies, but did not transmit on any of them until he neared MVY. His route of flight took him over the north shore of Long Island to Montauk, New York. He stated that he then crossed over Block Island, Rhode Island, and proceeded directly to MVY.

He stated that the entire flight was conducted under VFR, with a visibility of 3 to 5 miles in haze. He stated that, over land, he could see lights on the ground when he looked directly down or slightly forward; however, he stated that, over water, there was no horizon to reference. He stated that he was not sure if he was on top of the haze layer at 7,500 feet and that, during the flight, he did not encounter any cloud layers or ground fog during climb or descent. He further stated that, between Block Island and MVY, there was still no horizon to reference. He recalled that he began to observe lights on Martha's Vineyard when he was in the vicinity of Gay Head [about 6 miles from MVY]. He stated that, before reaching MVY, he would have begun his descent from 7,500 feet and would have been between 3,000 and 5,000 feet over Gay Head (the pilot could not recall his exact altitudes). He did not recall seeing the Gay Head marine lighthouse. He was about 4 miles from MVY when he first observed the airport's rotating beacon. He stated that he had an uneventful landing at MVY about 2145.

About 2200, the pilot departed MVY as the controller announced that the tower was closing. After takeoff, he proceeded on a heading of 290 degrees, climbed to 6,500 feet, and proceeded directly to Groton. The pilot stated that, during the return flight, the visibility was the same as that which he had encountered during the flight to MVY, which was about 3 to 5 miles in haze.

Another pilot at CDW had stated to the news media that he cancelled his planned flight from CDW to MVY on the evening of the accident because of the "poor" weather. In a written statement he stated the following:

"From my own judgement visibility appeared to be approximately 4 miles-extremely hazy. Winds were fairly light. Based only on the current weather conditions at CDW, the fact that I could not get my friends to come with me, and the fact that I would not have to spend money on a hotel room in Martha's Vineyard, I made the decision to fly my airplane to Martha's Vineyard on Saturday."


[quote]1) The rescue: This is enormouly important. The FAA radar tracked Kennedy's plane crash. The U.S. Coast Guard has reported that Kennedy contacted the tower on his final approach[/quote].


Here’s the USCG said “The FAA reported that last contact with the aircraft was at 9:39 p.m. as the aircraft was making its final approach to Martha’s Vineyard.” There was no indication of which facility the contact was with or if it was radio or radar contact. It sounds like the former but the FAA could have meant the later and the CG misunderstood. Fox News reported that “the last signal from the plane was transmitted at 9:39 p.m”. Though the NTSB said the plane started to plummet between 9:40:07 and 9:40:15 but this based on radar data fed through its “computer simulation program”. There would have been no reason for FAA ATC’s to have been tracking the flight, he never entered controlled airspace and never contacted MVY.

According to the NTSB the FAA said his last radio contact was just before takeoff. I’ve seen no reports of anyone at MVY or any FAA facilities saying they spoke to him after takeoff.

http://www.john-f-ke...om/newshawk.htm
http://www.reuters.c...722279520070208
http://www.foxnews.c...3,90819,00.html
http://www.kcby.com/...al/5678731.html

[quote]THIS IS ENORMOUSLY IMPORTANT!!! It means they would have known his plane was going down before it hit the water. FAA regulations require that a search begin immediately when a plane reports itself on final approach and does not land within 5 minutes.[/quote]

No reference is provided I doubt this is true. Two years later when Wellstone crashed the ATC said he did not make inquiries until “about 15 minutes after” the time he expected the plane to land and it took 6 hours for the search to begin after Steve Fossett crashed.

http://ww2.startribu...pdfb/251494.pdf pg.10
http://en.wikipedia....e_Fossett#Death

[quote]Yet it took them 14½ hours to send the first planes and boats to Martha's Vineyard. (Boston Herald, 7/20/99 "Time gaps in early hours of search are beyond explanation" Jack Sullivan and David Talbot) (LINK5)WHY?[/quote]

It actually seems to have taken a little less according to the Coast Guard report cited by the author “The Coast Guard assumed coordination for the waterside search at 8:25 a.m. today.” That would have been less than 11 hours after the crash and presumably they “assumed coordination” from someone else. According to the NY Times they were only informed by “a 2 A.M. phone call from a Kennedy family friend”. According to Reuters and AP Carole Radziwill (“a Kennedy relative”) made “a nighttime phone call to [FAA air traffic] controllers” but didn’t identify the time. Part of the problem was since he had not filed a flight plan and his last radio contact was shortly after take off no knew where to look. So even if they started looking sooner they probably would not have found the plane in time. The NTSB database turns up very few survivors from plane crashes in water

http://www.john-f-ke...om/newshawk.htm
http://www.nytimes.c...?pagewanted=all
http://www.reuters.c...722279520070208
AP http://www.kcby.com/...al/5678731.html
http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/Query.asp

[quote]2) The plane: Kennedy's plane had autopilot, capable of flying itself to within 100 feet of the airport. All a "cautious and methodical" pilot had to do was sit back and let the plane fly itself. (NTSB report, page 18)[/quote]

This is completely untrue. Though the NTSB report said the autopilot could guide the plane to a predetermined location via VOR (not one of Kennedy’s strong points) or GPS (competency unknown) is said nothing about its precision and said it “did not have the option of allowing the pilot to preselect an altitude so that the autopilot could fly to and maintain the preselected altitude as it climbed or descended from another altitude” . According tone flight instructor who’d flown in the plane [NTSB paraphrase] “on one or two occasions, the airplane's autopilot turned to a heading other than the one selected, which required the autopilot to be disengaged and then reengaged”


[quote]3) The sabotage: Kennedy's plane had a black box. No other private non-jet plane on earth had one. He knew they wanted to kill him and he wanted to make it hard. The NTSB, says the battery had been removed, destroying all record of conversation in the cockpit. (NTSB page 10)[/quote]

Once again not true, it had a voice activated digital voice recorder “wired into the radio communications circuits, and could record conversations between the airplane and other radio sources, ground, or air.” i.e. no radio calls, no recording. The NTSB simply stated that “it was crushed, its backup battery was missing” so was it removed or never installed? I doubt Kennedy’s was the only “private non-jet plane on earth” to have such a unit it sells for under $700* and planes cost hundreds of thousands. There is no indication if it was installed by Kennedy or one of the half dozen or so previous owners. And if, “he knew they wanted to kill him and he wanted to make it hard”, presumably he would have stopped flying around in a private plane.

http://shopping2.maj...o...255&store=1

[quote]All planes have an Emergency Locator Transmitter (ELT), which sends out a beacon signal in case of a crash. It took 5 days to locate Kennedy's plane. Why? Was it missing? Disabled?[/quote]

Steve Fossett’s plane had an ELT too and it took 13 months to find his plane despite an extensive search and his plane crashed on dry land rather than 120 feet underwater. And while discussing the overdue pilot (Kennedy) one FAA official said to another, "So if he didn't file a flight plan, we're pretty much out of luck then, huh?" not 'let's start an ELT search'.

http://en.wikipedia....e_Fossett#Death
http://www.kcby.com/...al/5678731.html

[quote]According to the NTSB report, the fuel valve had been turned to OFF (NTSB report, page 12). This valve had a safety device on it so that it could not accidentally be turned to OFF. Turning it off during flight would be suicide, since at top speed, the engine will die in 45 seconds!! Because the results are potentially deadly, the valve cannot be turned by accident. A safety-release button must be pushed down and held while turning the valve. This piece of evidence is the smoking gun. It is positive proof of foul play. Was Kennedy committing suicide? If he wasn't, there can scarcely be any question but that he was murdered. So who turned the valve?[/quote]

The report actually said:

“The fuel selector valve was recovered, and the bottom of the valve was missing. All three fuel line connections were broken off. The valve had separated from the fuselage attach points. The selector valve linkage was deformed, and the valve was found in the OFF position.”

The author provides no evidence in support of his claims about the result of the “fuel selector valve” being off or there being “a safety release button”. The Safety Board said nothing about it being a factor, if they were covering up, why would they mention it? It was not mentioned in an article in Salon about the crash by flight instructor nor in another article by another instructor which mentioned the crash. According to the Boston Globe:

The Saratoga has state-of-the-art equipment, including an automatic pilot, but also has two fuel tanks that require the pilot's attention to switch from one to another to avert disaster. "You're very busy in the cockpit," said Myron Goulian, head of Executive Flyers Aviation in Bedford, a 35-year-old family-owned flight school. "That might have been a little bit too much plane for him."



http://dir.salon.com...ntsb/index.html
http://www.m0a.com/to-err-is-human/
http://www.boston.co...plane_globe.htm

"Read on. Kennedy's flight logbook is missing. (NTSB report, page 2) This will be seen as critical in one minute,"

The plane crashed in water at high speed and was only located several days later, the report said about a dozen parts and much of the wings and fuselage especially in the cabin area of the plane that were missing. The log was presumably in the cabin.

"4) The flight instructor: All of the early reports said there was a flight instructor on the plane (e.g. The New York Times, Saturday July 17, 1999). Then the flight instructor disappeared from the reports. "


Apparently some early reports said an instructor was aboard but AFAICT none cited a source or said who the instructor was and 10 plus years later I’ve yet to heard about a CFI going missing around the time of the crash. Nor any of the witnesses at the NJ airport saying one was near or got on the plane. And as mentioned above Kennedy told one of his CFIs he wanted to fly “alone”

"Kennedy very rarely flew at night without a flight instructor. Out of 310 hours of flight time, and 55 hours at night, he had only 45 minutes at night without an instructor. (LINK12)He was very cautious. He had his wife on board. It is almost unthinkable that he would not have taken an instructor."

Incorrect, from the NTSB report:

The pilot's estimated flight time in the accident airplane was about 36 hours, of which 9.4 hours were at night. Approximately 3 hours of that flight time was without a CFI on board, and about 0.8 hour of that time was flown at night, which included a night landing. In the 15 months before the accident, the pilot had flown about 35 flight legs either to or from the Essex County/Teterboro, New Jersey, area and the Martha's Vineyard/Hyannis, Massachusetts, area. The pilot flew over 17 of these legs without a CFI on board, including at least 5 at night.

I.E. he only had flown about 48 minutes at night without a CFI in his plane but had done so at least 5 times just counting his flights to Cape Cod. Thus the other flight were in other plane's

"5) Egypt Air 990: Two months later Egyptian Air flight 990, with 30 of the highest ranking members of the Egyptian military on board, crashed. (It was big news for several days. The pilot's family and the Egyptian government objected to the NTSB finding that the pilot was committing suicide. "He was happily married. Moslems don't commit suicide" etc.)"


I wonder if this is parody “Moslems don't commit suicide”, tell that to the survivors and next of kin of suicide bombers as well of the bomber’s own relatives who often are proud of what they did. Christians, Buddhists, Hindus and Jews aren’t supposed to kill themselves either but hundreds of thousands (or millions) do so every year and unfortunately the concept of martyrdom is all too popular among many Muslims.

http://en.wikipedia....by_suicide_rate
http://www.al-islam....cept-ezzati.htm


"Both pilots, Kennedy's flight instructor and the Egyptian, were programmed, using hypnosis or other mind control, to act in exactly the same way."

Zero evidence is provide in support of this speculation

"The CIA has settled lawsuits by victims of their mind control experiments, the MK Ultra program. One of the physicians, Dr. John Gittinger, Chief Psychologist of the CIA, tortured by his conscience, has come forward to expose the existence of these programs and their purpose: to create walking, pre-programmed human time bombs, set to go off on cue, taking out their intended victim."

Gittinger said nothing of the sort during his 1977 Senate testimony:
http://www.druglibra...a/Hearing06.htm


"But why would anyone want to kill John Kennedy Jr.? He was planning to run for National office according to Newsweek and People. He told friends he would have run for Senate in New York, but let Hillary Clinton run instead. And he would have won. He was the most popular man in the US. And for good reason. He was a great guy. But he was the only Kennedy to ever acknowledge a conspiracy in his father's death. He not only acknowledge it, he published an article by Oliver Stone, in his magazine, George, about assassination, conspiracies, and lying history books. Who would want to kill him? The people who killed his father had to kill him. Kennedy Jr. was going to go after them."

BS during the nearly four years He ran the magazine it published one "Conspiracy Issue" in 1998. If he really wanted to “go after” “the people who killed his father” he could have done a lot more. I don’t know of any comments he made himself along those lines. The magazine had long been having financial difficulties according to Wikipedia Kennedy said he "might have to wind it up by the end of the year".

http://en.wikipedia.....#Public_career

Besides his inexperience, flying at night over water and injured foot there were other aggravating factors. The Saratoga was considered a “high performance aircraft”. According to R. Scott Puddy “an ATP, CFI, CFI-I, MEI” and stunt pilot in an article unrelated to the crash flying such planes is more difficult and that “The greatest risk occurs during the landing phase”. As previously mentioned said Myron Goulian a flight school said the Saratoga "might have been a little bit too much plane for him." Referring to Kennedy Troy Gold a Florida flight instructor said, "That's another problem when you have new pilots whose means exceed their experience, they buy a plane that may be a bit complex for them when a less powerful plane might be better. That sort of reminds me of the Thurman Munson situation." [Munson was a baseball player who died after crashing his private jet he only had a little over 500 flight hours]. He had only owned the plane 2 1/2months and only flown 36hours it only 3 of which were alone. Additionally he might have been under stress not was his magazine falling but his marriage was not doing well, his had been recently separated from his wife who had a cocaine habit.

http://www.airliners...ats.main?id=306

http://www.avweb.com...n/184264-1.html

http://news.google.c..."...n&scoring=a

http://www.cbsnews.c...ain607227.shtml

http://www.foxnews.c...3,90819,00.html

I found a July 18, 1999 article in the South Florida Sun – Sentinel particularly interesting. I included as much of it as I could coax out of Google News below:

LOST AT SEA HOPE DIMMED FOR JOHN F. KENNEDY JR., AND HIS WIFE CAROLYN BESSETTE KENNEDY, AND SISTER-IN-LAW, LAUREN BESSETTE, AFTER DARKNESS FELL ON THE WATERS OFF MARTHA'S VINEYARD WHERE THEIR PLANE WENT DOWN. TOUGH FLIGHT FOR ANY PILOT

By TIM COLLIE and SEAN CAVANAGH with Stacey Singer, Page A1

Attempting to land his plane at night on a difficult approach over water, John F. Kennedy Jr. may have been flying in conditions that exceeded his short experience as a pilot, according to flight instructors…Terry Fensome, a flight instructor and owner of Pelican Airways in Hollywood, said flying at night over water was treacherous for even the best pilots..."More than anything, it's a psychological thing when you're flying over water," Fensome said. "It takes you out of an environment you're comfortable with. You start to hear, or imagine the slightest knockings coming from the plane, and you think about it." Going down on the water was bad under any circumstances, but Kennedy's predicament may have been complicated by the design of the Saratoga aircraft. The planes typically are built with a single door, Fensome noted. "If he had a problem at night, on water, it would have been a big one," he said.


"Especially coming in over water, it's night and you lose the horizon," said Troy Gold, a flight instructor at Cavair flight school in Broward County. "You get in a situation like that and your body starts telling you the wrong thing. If you don't focus on the instruments, you can easily lose control.” "Unfortunately, it's a common way for inexperienced pilots to get themselves killed," Gold said. Kennedy, 38, earned his private pilot's license in early 1998, according to officials at the Federal Aviation Administration, who did not make more precise ….But flight instructors and other local aviation authorities disagreed. "That's another problem when you have new pilots whose means exceed their experience,” Gold said. "They buy a plane that may be a bit complex for them when a less powerful plane might be better. That sort of reminds me of the Thurman Munson situation."


http://pqasb.pqarchi...mp;pqatl=google

Edited by Len Colby, 05 February 2010 - 02:55 PM.


#9 John Dugan

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 07:21 PM

Len, thanks for the corrections.

#10 David Andrews

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 09:43 PM

Len, what about Sherman Skolnick's researches and his parsing of the NTSB report? Any critique there? You shpuld be able to Google them up easily under Skolnick.

#11 Len Colby

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Posted 06 February 2010 - 01:30 AM

Len, what about Sherman Skolnick's researches and his parsing of the NTSB report? Any critique there? You shpuld be able to Google them up easily under Skolnick.


David, it should come as no surprise to you that I'm no fan of Skolnick's. But at least his writings about 9/11 and the Hunt and Boggs crashes put up the pretense of presenting evidence. The only essays of his that I could find about the John-John crash were lunatic rantings that went off on British conspiracies to murder Lincoln, Garfield and McKinley and racist plots to keep Jews off the Supreme Court. Most of his claims are unsourced or attributed to secret government document he inexplicably claims to have gotten hold of. He claims Kennedy who'd never run for elected office in his life and only held mid-level government jobs for a few years at most was killed because he was going to run for president and probably would have won. Either that or he was going to run for Senator even though as even most conspiracy proponents acknowledge he'd already bowed out in favor of Clinton who had the backing of the party establishment. In other word the man went from crank to full blown nutcase. If you want me to comment on anything more substantial he wrote about the crash you'll have to provide the link. :rolleyes:

http://www.skolnicks.../goldenboy.html
http://www.skolnicks....com/jfkjr.html

#12 B. A. Copeland

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 10:56 AM

-Len, what do you think concerning the fact that only 5 seats were found?

-Col. Stanley's statement to the effect of "they (choppers) were out there" some time before the search began by the Coast Guard.

-Who began the crazy claim that Kennedy was NOT on the plane with a CFI? What evidence is there to support that in any way? Carole Radziwell (who we could and probably should trust or at least have good reason to trust) Mentioned that Jr. had a CFI on the plane with him. Jr. told Richard Blow earlier that day or the day before (in Richard's book) "don't worry, I am flying with an instructor".

-What do you make of the N-Tap Radar Analysis? (it honestly does look as if someone plunged the plane into the water no doubt), and remember the fuel valve was found in the off position. Now this could have been the result of impact, not sure but when we look at Egypt 990 it can definitely have an impression, especially considering there were top military brass on that plane and the man basically shut the fuel valve off and plunged the plane into the sea.

-The news people had the ELT info. a significant time before the search began, yet it still took 10+ hours to "find" the plane. Either Col. Roarke was lying through his teeth or he is grossly incompetent.

Kathleen, yes, according to the SF Bee (it was definitely 1 of 2 papers that literally reported it, while 1 retracted the story) Newspaper, W was indeed at the Grove the weekend of the murder. "sigh..."I really need to locate the source correspondence for that.....

P.S - With all due respect to Skolnick, I take that FBI "report" as disinfo. I think it is best to deal with fundamental facts and go from there.

Edited by B. A. Copeland, 07 February 2010 - 11:29 AM.


#13 Len Colby

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 03:18 PM

[quote name='B. A. Copeland' post='182521' date='Feb 7 2010, 06:56 AM']-Len, what do you think concerning the fact that only 5 seats were found?[/quote]

Nothing as I stated in my previous post the plane hit the water at high speed (thus break up would be expected) and found in 120 feet of water after several days. Several other parts of the plane including much of the fuselage and wings was not recovered. According to the 2 doco Don linked it hit the water at 200 MPH (part 2 or 3)

[quote]-Col. Stanley's statement to the effect of "they (choppers) were out there" some time before the search began by the Coast Guard.[/quote]

I don’t know anything about it please provide a citation there seems to be disagreement about when exactly the search began.

[quote]-Who began the crazy claim that Kennedy was NOT on the plane with a CFI? What evidence is there to support that in any way? Carole Radziwell (who we could and probably should trust or at least have good reason to trust) Mentioned that Jr. had a CFI on the plane with him. Jr. told Richard Blow earlier that day or the day before (in Richard's book) "don't worry, I am flying with an instructor".[/quote]

The evidence overwhelmingly indicates there was no CFI on the plane. Please provide references for your claims about Blow and Raziwell. I don’t think either of them says what you claim they did.

1) When the latter called the FAA in Boston she told the supervisor:

"He's relatively new, you know, he only got his license a year ago. Maybe I'm just, like, paranoid, but I'm just getting nervous." Additionally a Boston ATC told the supervisor at the Federal Aviation Administration's Automated Flight Service Station in Bridgeport, CT concerning an earlier phone call from an unidentified “lady” said "I guess the guy's a pretty new pilot." So either Raziwell and another woman indicated he was flying alone or she told the FAA this twice.

http://www.kcby.com/...al/5678731.html

2) I couldn’t find any citations for Blow saying Kennedy told him he was with a CFI nor is this mentioned in any of the videos articles I’ve seen and read. Rather claim concerning Blow made by promoters of the John-John was murdered theory is that he (supposedly) said on the day he died "As long as I'm alive, you have a job at George magazine."


http://www.rense.com...eral78/reas.htm

3) The NTSB spoke to three of his NJ CFI’s, all were (obviously) alive and well. None of them or anyone else has indicated any instructors from the airport or anywhere else mysteriously disappeared around the time of the crash.
http://ntsb.gov/ntsb...0...A178&akey=1

4) One the NJ CFI’s said ‘he had talked to the pilot on the day of the accident and offered to fly with him on the accident flight. He stated that the accident pilot replied that "he wanted to do it alone."’

Ibid

5) Witnesses who saw Kennedy depart made no mention of seeing a CFI. They seem to have seen only woman so this in not conclusive (NTSB). However one pilot Kyle Bailey said that “said he had seen Kennedy take the flight many times, and he usually took a flight instructor with him when the weather was "iffy"” (WaPo) and "I told my family, 'I can't believe he's going up in this weather'" (Salon) all of which implies Bailey was reasonably sure there was no CFI at the airport. Additionally Bailey said he cancelled his flight to MVY because of the weather and that "He had at least one crutch. I saw him limping," (Salon)

Ibid
http://www.washingto...crash071899.htm
http://www.salon.com...less/print.html


[quote]-What do you make of the N-Tap Radar Analysis? (it honestly does look as if someone plunged the plane into the water no doubt),[/quote]

It is my understanding that the profile is equally constituent with pilot error or sabotage.

[quote]and remember the fuel valve was found in the off position. Now this could have been the result of impact,[/quote]

I discussed this in my previous post see above

[quote]not sure but when we look at Egypt 990 it can definitely have an impression, especially considering there were top military brass on that plane and the man basically shut the fuel valve off and plunged the plane into the sea.[/quote]

990 is not relevant to this case and I’ve never seen it the crash being blamed on a fuel valve shut off. The NTSB blamed it on “the relief first officer's flight control inputs” the Egyptians on “a mechanical defect in the elevator control system”

http://en.wikipedia....ion_conclusions

[quote]-The news people had the ELT info. a significant time before the search began, yet it still took 10+ hours to "find" the plane. Either Col. Roarke was lying through his teeth or he is grossly incompetent.[/quote]

Citation please, most sources say they thought they detected a ELT signal being activated 6 hours after the crash in the wrong location but it was a false alarm.

http://whatreallyhap...JFK_JR/upi.html

It seems I made a significant error in my previous post. I said Kennedy still had his cast on when in fact it had been removed the day earlier. His last flight was his first one since May 28 (he broke his foot June 1) 49 days before the accident without a CFI to function the foot pedals and otherwise help him. Baily said he was using a crutch and limping and “, the pilot's physical therapist stated that the pilot did not have full dorsiflexion (bending upward of the foot) and that he could not determine whether the pilot's gait was caused by his slight limitation of motion or by mild pain.” He had only flown the plane solo 6 hours. It is not unreasonable to assume that due to his foot injury and limited experience using the pedals, using them that night might have been a problem.

I previously mentioned the autopilot problem “According to the CFI, on one or two occasions, the airplane's autopilot turned to a heading other than the one selected, which required the autopilot to be disengaged and then reengaged.” He had only flown with Kennedy 57 hours. This indicates a failure rate of about once every 30 hours, thus an autopilot failure adding to Kennedy’s work load can’t be dismissed either. Add to this his known problems using VOR and his GPS skills being unknown.

I have found another account from a pilot indicating visibility was poor:

Air traffic controllers and witnesses said there was haze surrounding Martha's Vineyard Friday night that diminished Kennedy's visibility. Dr. Bob Arnot, chief medical correspondent for NBC and an experienced pilot, also was flying in the area Friday night. He said visibility was limited by haze as he passed about three miles south of the Vineyard just after 9 p.m. He had to rely on instruments to land at the nearby island of Nantucket, where he vacations.

"It was just black," Arnot said. "You couldn't see Martha's Vineyard."


http://www.salon.com...less/print.html

The was a witness who seemed to indicate visibility was OK:

TISBURY, Mass. Victor Pribanic may be the only person to have heard John
F. Kennedy Jr.'s airplane crash.

An attorney from Pittsburgh, Pribanic was fishing Friday for striped bass off
Squibnocket Point, [not far from the crash site] the remote southern tip of Martha's Vineyard, when a loud noise broke the silence of night.

"I heard an explosion over my right shoulder," Pribanic said yesterday in the first
interview he has granted since the crash that killed JFK Jr.; his wife, Carolyn
Bessette Kennedy, and her sister Lauren Bessette.

"It sounded like an explosion. There was no shock wave, but it was a large
bang."

Pribanic, 45, who has spent his summers on Martha's Vineyard for 20 years,
pinpointed the source of the sound about 4 miles offshore, near Nomans Island.

He said that just before hearing the noise, he noticed a small aircraft flying low
over the water toward the island . But he could not say for certain if it was
Kennedy's plane or if it was the source of the bang.

The lawyer scratched the top of his crew-cut head as he described how he
peered out at the dark waters and saw nothing but the black of night.
"It was not really hazy", but you have to appreciate how bad it gets out there at
that time of the night," Pribanic said. "The water and the horizon are indistinct.
You can't tell the difference."



http://whatreallyhap...FK_JR/hazy.html

Pribanic however was contradicted by 3 pilots in the air and contradicted himself if he could see the stars clearly the "water and the horizon" should have been distinct.

Interestingly UPI reported the following:

At 9:39 p.m. Friday, Kennedy radioed the airport and said he was 13
miles from the airport and 10 miles from the coast, according to WCVB-TV
news in Boston. He reportedly said he was making his final approach.

Moments later, radar operated by the Federal Aviation Administration
showed the plane went into a dive and dropped 1,200 feet in just 12
seconds, according to ABC News.

In his final approach message, WCVB-TV said Kennedy told controllers
at the airport that he planned to drop off his wife's sister and then
take off again between 11 p.m. and 11:30 p.m. for Hyannis Airport.



http://whatreallyhap...JFK_JR/upi.html

I believe this to be erroneous but don't know if the error was UPI's or WCVB's.I suspect someone conflated the info about "the last contact" with Kennedy's known plans one problem is that the airport closed at 10 PM*. Also the TV station said nothing of the sort in the clip from this documentary.



* http://ntsb.gov/ntsb...0...A178&akey=1

Edited by Len Colby, 07 February 2010 - 03:23 PM.


#14 David S. Brownlee

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 03:43 PM

The report of the National Transportation Safety Board..


We always call it the NT-CUB (National Transportation Cover Up Board).... :P

Ooops...a fly went into the captain's coffee....and a..what? Flight 800 blew up over Long Island? Well you know those Boeing 747s...they are always blowing up.

Edited by David S. Brownlee, 07 February 2010 - 04:26 PM.


#15 Len Colby

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 03:48 PM

The report of the National Transportation Safety Board..


We always call it the NTCOB (National Transportation Cover Up Board).... :P

Ooops...a fly went into the captain's coffee....and a..what? Flight 800 blew up over Long Island? Well you know those Boeing 747s...they are always blowing up.


If you have soild evidence the conclusion about flight 800 was wrong,perhaps you'd be so good as to start a new thread about it.




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