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Greg Parker and Jim Root, this one's for you!


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#1 Guest_Tom Scully_*

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 08:30 PM

Just a spooky coincidence, or much more? I'll let Greg and Jim present the background.
For Greg to consider:
"Drittel" or "Drittell"....it is spelled both ways...was the name of a Russian immigrant, a cellist named Ana :

http://books.google....A...=1&oi=spell
The Musician: America's leading magazine for musicians, music-lovers ...‎ - Page 103
Biography & Autobiography - 1932
Mr. Arsenault was assisted by Ana Drittel, cellist. Susanne Fisher, soprano of
the Metropolitan Opera, has been engaged to sing a special performance of La ...

http://books.google....nG=Search Books
The Musician: America's leading magazine for musicians, music-lovers ...‎ - Page 46
Biography & Autobiography - 1932
Ana Drittell, young cellist, made her Town Hall debut, presenting music of Bach,
Beethoven- Mozart, Locatelli, Jean Hure, Faure, Turina, Hindemith and U.

For Jim Root to consider:

http://news.google.c...a...n&scoring=a
John B. Hurt, Retired Aide Of National Security Unit
- New York Times - Aug 9, 1966
Mr. Hurt is survived by his widow, Mrs. Ana Dritfell Burt, a Russian-born cellist; his mother, Mrs. Anna Hurt of Wytheville, Va.; two sisters and three ...


Unless it is related to a flaw in the optical scanning process, the NY Times mangled the name, "Mrs. Ana Drittell Hurt," so that it ended up displaying as it does above. Years earlier,
the Times knew how to spell Ana's name:

http://news.google.c...n...n&scoring=a
THE MICROPHONE WILL PRESENT--; Piatigorsky to Play With …
- New York Times - Nov 10, 1940
... 3:18-4 P. M. Concert Orchestra, Macklin Marrow, conducting, and Anna Drittel, the 'cellist soloist: WNYC, 4-5 P. M. Concerto, 'cello and orchestra. ...

PROGRAMS OF THE WEEK; Four Pianists as Soloists in Bach Concerto …
New York Times - Jul 26, 1936
TOMORROW night's program at the Stadium will feature Bach's concerto in A ... Loeillet tills Ig. alman, violin; Ana Drittel, 'cello; Andre Skalski, piano. ...

Posted Image
Image above from: http://www.nsa.gov/p.../translator.pdf (I could only get link to open in IE browser, unsuccessfull using FireFox 3.5.8)

Edited by Tom Scully, 19 February 2010 - 09:28 PM.


#2 Jim Root

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 11:08 PM

Tom

Thanks! You shook my memory as well.

The Hurt family spelling for Ana is Dritelle. Ana was an American Jew of Russian descent who studied in Paris. By chance John B. Hurt and Ana met on board a ship in the late 1920's as they both sailed to Paris to study, one as a cellist and one apparently languages. They fell in love and married in Europe but the marriage was annulled. It seems that Ana's Jewish parents were the reason for the breakup....All this was before Hurt connected with Friedman around 1931......but the story continues.

John B. Hurt, about 1935, married Myrtle Deteirre, who was from a French-apeaking area of Louisiana (this may be interesting as well). Myrtle died around 1945 of complications from pneumonia (at about the same time John was having a breakdown of some sort) .

Around 1949 Hurt and Ana Dritelle were reunited and remarried. Hurt had no children from either marriage. I have been told that Ana was a fluent Russian speaker and that Hurt was as well yet an NSA historian would not confirm that Hurt spoke Russian. Perhaps that is because his work after 1947 is still classified and may have had something to do with the Russian language (Venoa? that both Rowlett and Gardenier worked on?).

Jim Root

PS Tom, at one point I was following a lead on another Soviet agent who, it seems, was married to a woman that may have played in some of the same orchestras with Ana....but could never make an actual name connection in any material I uncovered.

Edited by Jim Root, 19 February 2010 - 11:15 PM.


#3 Guest_Tom Scully_*

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 11:32 PM

You're welcome, Jim. As usual, you've written a very interesting and informative post. The Soviet agent in the orchestra angle reminds me to pass along a 1937 reference to a Maurice Drittell playing 2nd Violin.

http://books.google......ce Drittell"
Stradivarius memorial concert in commemoration of the bicentenary ..., Page 1000‎ - Page 10
Stradivarius Memorial Association - Biography & Autobiography - 1937 - 40 pages
Alphonse Carlo ... 4. Alfred Lustgarten 5. Irving Lashinsky 6. Maurice Drittell ...


I think Greg will forgive Oswald's spelling of Drittell, since it seems there are so many variations, as you relate in your post, and the NY Times reinforces.

Thanks, John. I got a lucky break. Jim Root's reply to my "John W. Hurt" post, the other day, was the catalyst for my looking a little harder.

I am glad you resurrected this thread, and your guess is as good as mine, as the saying goes.

Meet the family,,,,(I'd be grateful to anyone who can post the full text of these obits.)

http://news.google.c...n...s&scoring=a

Deaths
$3.95 - New York Times - Jan 10, 1970
9:30 A.M. -Anna. beloved mother of Jean Koops, Maurice, Ana Hurt, and Sonya Levine. Devoted grandmother and . Servlees Sunday 12 noon Gramercy Park Chepti, ...

Deaths; In Memoriam
$3.95 - New York Times - Jan 10, 1973
Beloved wife of Barnet Levine Sister c ! Mrs. Jean KooPs, Mrs. Anni Driltelle , Hurt and Maurice Drittell. Services 3 P.M. I Thursday in The Church of the ...


Edited by Tom Scully, 19 February 2010 - 11:41 PM.


#4 John Dolva

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Posted 20 February 2010 - 08:15 AM

Stradivarius mainly built violins but in particular one famous Cello which has been documented in many books. Likely various Cellists and Orchestras would be named in these studies.

#5 William Kelly

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Posted 20 February 2010 - 08:26 AM

Stradivarius mainly built violins but in particular one famous Cello which has been documented in many books. Likely various Cellists and Orchestras would be named in these studies.



Virginia Pleasants, wife of former OSS and CIA officer Henry Pleasants, played the cello in the Philadelphia orchestra. Henry was a music critic for the Philadelphia Evening Bulletin before WWII and debriefed Gehlen (See The Invisible Governement, Wise and Ross). Besides being a top spy Pleasants wrote a book "The Agony of Modern Music" in which he declared classical music dead and jazz the vanguard of new music. Henry and Virginia moved to London where they were she played in a chamber group with Ian Fleming's sister.

BK

Fleming wrote a novel about a Russian assassin who turned out to be a women cellist in the orchestra, who carried her sniper's rifle in her cello case.

#6 Greg Parker

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Posted 20 February 2010 - 09:15 AM

Just a spooky coincidence, or much more? I'll let Greg and Jim present the background.
For Greg to consider:
"Drittel" or "Drittell"....it is spelled both ways...was the name of a Russian immigrant, a cellist named Ana :

http://books.google....A...=1&oi=spell
The Musician: America's leading magazine for musicians, music-lovers ...‎ - Page 103
Biography & Autobiography - 1932
Mr. Arsenault was assisted by Ana Drittel, cellist. Susanne Fisher, soprano of
the Metropolitan Opera, has been engaged to sing a special performance of La ...

http://books.google....nG=Search Books
The Musician: America's leading magazine for musicians, music-lovers ...‎ - Page 46
Biography & Autobiography - 1932
Ana Drittell, young cellist, made her Town Hall debut, presenting music of Bach,
Beethoven- Mozart, Locatelli, Jean Hure, Faure, Turina, Hindemith and U.


The spelling Jim says the family used seems like it's been changed to appear French, and therefore a more show biz type name for Western taste - though that spelling does not seem to have been used by the press...

I'm on the fence with this. On the one hand, the surname along with first name An(n?)a seems to suggest she is a good lead -- the Ana part for reasons stated elswhere - that the FBI was looking for an "Ana Hidell" (and early on Hoover himself was saying Hidell was a female) - though there is no reason that can be found for this name search. But here you have Ana dritELL and Ana hidELL...

On the other hand, how do the initials (and I believe that is what they are), DF fit in? They are not Ana's initials, nor do they appear to belong to any of her family.

Edited by Greg Parker, 20 February 2010 - 09:16 AM.


#7 Guest_Tom Scully_*

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Posted 20 February 2010 - 12:28 PM

The 1920 census page image I posted on your "What's In a Name" thread, shows John B. Hurt's wife, Ana's family immigrated in 1912, and the last name in the census is recorded as "Drittel." The 1912 ship's manifest image I posted below the 1920 census image shows they emigrated to the U.S. as "Drittel." Ana and her mother were listed with longer names which I cannot quite make out. Brother Maurice was Moises in 1912 and Morris in 1920., but I don't think that is the point, because you posted that the press seemed to uniformly call Ana, "Ana Drittell." One exceprion is in the 1973 Obit when she is named as "Drittelle Hurt," but brother Maurice is named Drittell.

What I think we now have is a new example of how the Investigation of the assassination and the WC report were a fraud, a conspiracy and a follow on crime. of cover up.

I think there is a good chance she is named Drittell in the 1966, John B. Hurt obit, and it displays as "Dritfell" in google news because of an opitcal scanning fault.

Would you agree that we can describe this as another glaring flaw in a very flawed investigation and WC report.
The police only held Oswald for under 48 hours. Dallas police, the FBI, Secret Service, CIA, NSA, DIA, ONI, McCloy, and Dulles all had to know that one of the few calls Oswald attempted was to a party named John Hurt.

They all were also aware that there was a mail order form submiyyed for a gun purchase that they, in the course of their investigation, and I assume, you too, believed had "DF Drittal" written on it, by Oswald. The coupon was related to the investigation of the purchase of what they claimed to be a murder weapon owned/used by Oswald.

http://books.google....nG=Search Books

The name written in this space was DF Drittal....

Jim Root says that McCloy probably was personally acquainted with John B. Hurt, or was at least very familiar with him and his work.

A thorough and transparent investigation would have at least included classified reports describing John B. Hurt and put on the record that because of the Oswald call request, John B. Hurt became a person of interest but was questioned and eliminated as the party Oswald was trying to place a call to. When investigators did that routine procedure of looking into the details of John B. Hurt's background, they would have found his wife's maiden name, and someone would have at least compared the name Drittell to the word Oswald was accused of writing. The record would have included that the comparison was discovered and pursued as a lead, and described the details of that pursuit and its conclusion.

None of that happened, and neither McCloy nor Dulles are known to have told anyone, "hey, I know a John Hurt, we better bring this to the attention of investigators, as a S.O.P.

If anyone can attest to how uncommon Drittal or Drittell is, it be you, Greg. Uncommon enough that in a real invesitgation, John B. Hurt would have been checked out and then associated with it, however briefly, because of the similarity of the name Drittal, to Hurt's wife's family name.
Oswald was their only suspect, right from the start, and two of the most curious things they say he he did, that they knew of, right away, were to attempt to call John W Hurt, or John Hurt, and write in the name "DF Drittal" as the witness name on an order form to purchase what they claimed was a murder weapon.

#8 Guest_Tom Scully_*

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Posted 21 February 2010 - 11:45 AM

WARNING: The following may not be suitable for all viewing audience members, because, in addition to the coincidences documented below, it is entirely possible, given what we now know, that Jean DeMohrenschildt and or Abraham Zapruder, or their former employer, DeNardis, may have been employed and or acquainted with the late brother (Julius Drittel) of John Hurt's wife, Ana Drittel or Drittell or Drittelle !! Imagine if we lived in a small country, one where everyone was an accomplished Russian cellist, accompanied by someone fluent in Japanese?

(Bill Kelly, I just noticed your post....wow! Why didn't Oswald sneak a borrowed or planted MC rifle into the TSBD in a cello case? Was Virginia Pleasants a Russian, did her husband, Henry, speak Japanese?)

http://news.google.c...L...n&scoring=a
JULIUS DRITTEL
- New York Times - Feb 6, 1953
5-- Julius Drittel of 1 De Witt Road, president of Julius Drittel, Inc.,I manufacturer of women's coats here for many years, today in [ount Siani Hospital, ...


Greg and Jim, IMO this is a poster child for my increasingly strong (against my will) argument that this case will never be solved. What are the chances of all this happening coincidentally, yet here it all is.:

1.) A US, G-2 linguist, a master of the Japanese language named John Hurt marries a Russian immigrant, Ana Drittel, a performing, NY cellist.
2.) Lee H. Oswald serves in the USMC, partly in Japan, leaves the service, defects to Russia, marries a Russian woman and returns to the US. He becomes fluent in the Russian language and has some knowledge of Japanese.

3.) At the end of 1962, Oswald attends a Dallas social gathering of primarily Russian emigres with his wife. He becomes preoccupied in conversation with a young, attractive Japanese woman, a musician who is escorted by a Russian-German who is first cellist in the Dallas Symphony. Oswald's interaction seems totally out of character for him, and later it is related that Oswald's wife suspects he is involved with the Japanese womand and that she is a spy.
4.) Eleven months later, the FBI obtains a mail order record of an order for a pistol purchase, and they claim that Oswald sent this order and received the pistol via his Dallas P.O. box. The witness signature on this mailorder is signed D.E. or D.F. Drittal.
5.) A week prior to the discovery of this mail order record, there is evidence that Oswald, under arrest in Dallas for the murder of President Kennedy and of a Dallas policeman, attempts to make a collect phone call from the jail to a John Hurt in Raleigh, NC.

No person named John Hurt or Drittal is ever officially located and connected with Oswald, despite three federal scale investigations, ending in 1964, 1978, and in 1995....

http://news.google.c...a...n&scoring=a
John B. Hurt, Retired Aide Of National Security Unit
- New York Times - Aug 9, 1966
Mr. Hurt is survived by his widow, Mrs. Ana Dritfell Burt, a Russian-born cellist; his mother, Mrs. Anna Hurt of Wytheville, Va.; two sisters and three ..

http://news.google.c...s...1&scoring=a

Obituary 1 -- No Title
$3.95 - New York Times - Feb 8, 1953
... devoted father of Saul, Mrs. Harry Rose and Mrs. Stanley Forray; dear grandfather; loving son of Mrs. Anna Drtttel. brother of Mrs. Sonla Levlne and Miss Aria Drittel of New
York City and Mrs. Jean Keeps and Maurlce Drittel of Los Angeles, 'allf


http://www.roanoke.c.../nrv\31494.html
Sunday, September 04, 2005
Wytheville linguist's World War II role is finally revealed
Researchers from Virginia and Japan have documented John Hurt's contributions to breaking Japanese coded messages.

...It was in languages that Hurt's expertise stood out. His mother's brother, former U.S. Rep. Joseph Crockett Shaffer, who served as 9th District congressman for one term, got Hurt an interview in 1930 with the Signal Intelligence Service, a predecessor to the National Security Agency.

The congressman, who was the father of Edwin Shaffer, a former Wythe County commonwealth's attorney who still lives in Wytheville, had learned that the agency was looking for someone fluent in Japanese.

"But after that, he was on his own," Hoch said. "He proved himself very, very well."

Frank Rowlett was one of a handful of cryptanalysts hired by William Friedman, who was the sole professional assigned to code and cipher work for the U.S. War Department. They worked in New York under Military Intelligence, also known as G-2.

In his book, "The Story of Magic: Memoirs of an American Cryptologic Pioneer," Rowlett recalled the report from the officer who interviewed Hurt.

"I've never met an American who is as proficient in Japanese as that young man," the officer said. "It is unbelievable. If you don't employ him, you will be making a great mistake. He is remarkably fluent in conversational Japanese, he can read both forms of written Japanese, and his vocabulary is fabulous. He knows Japanese much better than I or, for that matter, anyone else in G-2."

Hurt had mastered that language, among others, without ever having visited Japan. He also spoke French and did not visit France -- although he did marry a French concert cellist named Ana.

"He'd had so many close friends in college who were Japanese," Hoch said....


http://www.aarclibra...H23_CE_1869.pdf

...at which LEE HARVEY and MARINA OSWALD were also in attendance, Mrs .
PERUTZ stated she did not find this unusual as Miss OKUl frequently
attended Russian gatherings in the company of Mr . LEV ARONSON, a
noted Dallas cellist
and music teacher who she believes to be of
Russian origin and who has many Russian-speaking friends in this ar~a .
Mrs . PERUTZ advised she is of the opinion Miss OKUI would have had no
social relationship with either LEE HARVEY or MARINA OSWALD other
than through mutual attendance at one of these Russian gatherings and
knows that Miss ONUI has never mentioned the OSWALDs to her at any
time either before or after the assassination of President KENNEDY .
Mrs . PEBUTZ stated further that she feels positivefthere could be
no social relationship between Miss YAEKO OKUl and'LEE HARVEY OSWALD
inasmuch as their obvious cultural and educational levels are so
diverse .

http://www.acorn.net...A/DR/.dr17.html
I Am A Patsy! I Am A Patsy!
by George De Mohrenschildt
edited by David Reitzes
1998

That Christmas Eve both Marina and Lee were well dressed and looked very
elegant. Lee didn't always have to be a nondescript individual; he had
sometimes a very pleasant appearance and could dress well.

The self-appointed baby-sitter, Anita, liked June and took care of her
in a typical warm, Italian manner, and the Oswalds and the two of us,
chatting pleasantly, went to Ford's attractive house in North Dallas. It
was a clear, cold night and a slight layer of snow -- unusual for Texas
-- cheered all of us and gave the city a Christmas-like appearance.
Most of the guests had already consumed lots of drinks and they were
chattering excitedly in a dozen languages. The loveliest girl of the
crowd was a Japanese musician, Yaeko Okui,
staying in Dallas for a short
time with her friends from Tokyo. She was a delicate, elegant,
sophisticated girl, restrained and dignified, a little lost in our
Dallas society of noisy, self-assertive, aggressive females.

Marina did not look too well, she seemed to be afraid of the crowds. She
looked to operate with men one-to-one, and appeared bashful, like a
country girl. Lee, on the other hand, blossomed, and was the hit of the
party. Naturally a good conversationalist -- if he wanted to be -- both
in English and Russian, he was outgoing and friendly. Possibly because
the people were more liberal than usual, his behavior was exemplary.
Serious, attentive and polite, he answered questions intelligently, if
the person who asked the question was serious. He reacted well to the
surroundings.

Somebody played Russian tunes on the piano and some good voices could be
heard. Marina unfortunately was not musical and Lee was engrossed in
conversations. I stayed around him and noticed that several women
flirted with him and displayed their charms. Some were quite attractive.
But Lee's greatest conquest was this Japanese girl, Yaeko, I had
mentioned before, and who I also found the most interesting woman of
all. He noticed her also and angled towards her, or possibly it was
vice-versa. Anyway, soon they were engrossed in a conversation.

Of course, Lee had served in Japan, and there he had learned a lot about
the country and the people.
He had told me that he met there some
interesting leftist youngsters.

Maybe Yaeko had met GIs, whatever it was, but they were engrossed in
each other and I left them alone. Marina stayed around, but not being
able to understand. she fretted and did not know what to do with
herself. As far as I was concerned, I was delighted. How many times I'd
heard her call Lee a bore, a fool, a bookworm; how many times she
degraded his masculinity. And here the loveliest girl of all was in a
trance. Now Marina became just a jealous woman. She even forgot to smoke...

http://books.google....N...kui&f=false
Who's who in the JFK assassination: an A-to-Z encyclopedia - Google Books Result
Michael Benson - 1993 - Social Science - 511 pages
Marina later told journalist Priscilla Johnson McMillan that she thought Okui might be a spy. Marina said she feared Lee and Okui were having an affair, ...


Edited by Tom Scully, 21 February 2010 - 12:32 PM.


#9 Guest_Tom Scully_*

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Posted 21 February 2010 - 11:53 AM

Alright Jim and Greg...I've posted a census record, a ship's manifest page, a Feb., 1953 obit for John Hurt's wife, Ana's brother, Julius.

All of the above show the family name to be "Drittel." The 1912 ship's manifest and the 1920 census show the family name as Drittel, and the place of birth as Russia.

Can we agree that this is enough evidence to convince a court that the name of Ana's family was Drittel, but Ana is shown to have used other variations in spelling, and is refered to, in addition to Drittel, as Drittell, and Dritelle.

We all agree that there is strong evidence that Oswald tried to call a party named John Hurt from the Dallas jail.
Can we agree that the mail order to purchase a pistol, found by the FBI on Nov. 30, 1963, exhibits a witness signature with a last name, an unusual name, "Drittal", just one character off from the name "Drittel"?

Can we agree that the "evidence" presented by the WC seems intended to portray Oswald as a below average spelller?

http://news.google.c..."...1&scoring=a
JULIUS DRITTEL
- New York Times - Feb 6, 1953
JULIUS Special to Till; NEW 'ORrg TI;$. ELIZABETH, 1. J., Feb. 5-- Julius Drittel of 1 De Witt Road, president of Julius Drittel, Inc.,I manufacturer of ...

http://news.google.c...er aria drittel
Obituary 1 -- No Title
- New York Times - Feb 8, 1953
... of Mrs. Anna Drtttel. brother of Mrs. Sonla Levlne and Miss Aria Drittel of New York City and Mrs. Jean Keeps and Maurlce Drittel of Los Angeles, 'allf. .

http://news.google.c... ...n&scoring=a
Obituary 1 -- No Title
- New York Times - Feb 8, 1953
... Mrs. Harry Rose and Mrs. Stanley Forray; dear grandfather; loving son of Mrs. Anna Drtttel. brother of Mrs. Sonla Levlne and Miss Aria Drittel of New ...

http://news.google.c...t...n&scoring=a
Obituary 1 -- No Title
- New York Times - Feb 8, 1953
... devoted father of Saul, Mrs. Harry Rose and Mrs. Stanley Forray; dear grandfather; loving son of Mrs. Anna Drtttel. brother of Mrs. Sonla Levlne and ...

http://news.google.c...i...1&scoring=a
Programs Today in Churches of the City
- New York Times - Dec 10, 1933
... include a program of Russian music by the choir, assisted by Mary Becker, violinist, and Anna Drittel. , under the direction of Harold Vincent Milligan


http://books.google....nG=Search Books
Index of trademarks issued from the United States Patent Office, Volume 945‎ - Page 26
United States. Patent Office - Trademarks - 1945
Drittel, Julius, doing business as Julius Drittel Co., Elizabeth, NJ House coats
. ... Duchess Royal, New York, NY Ladies' suits, coats, raincoats, etc. ...
Snippet view - About this book - Add to bookshelves ▼ - More editions

The Industrial Directory of New Jersey

The Industrial Directory of New Jersey‎ - Page 284
New Jersey. Bureau of Statistics and Records - 1940
PRACTICAL, FROCKS, wash dresses and house coats, 1004 Elizabeth av, Elizabeth.
Pres Julius Drittel; sec Ida Rose; treas Lena Drittel; pt mgr Harry Rose. ...
Snippet view - About this book - Add to bookshelves ▼

Textile colorist

Textile colorist, Volume 67‎ - Page 608
Art - 1945
... sportswear, slacks and slack suits, house coats, smocks, blouses, skirts,
negligees, ... The Dolphin Co.; Donnelley Garment Co.; Julius Drittel, Inc.; ...
Snippet view - About this book - Add to bookshelves ▼ - More editions

Official gazette of the United States Patent Office

Official gazette of the United States Patent Office, Volume 570‎ - Page 199
United States. Patent Office - Law - 1945
FOR GIRLS' COATS. Claims use since September 1943. Ser. No. ... JULIUS DRITTEL,
doing business as Julius Drittel Co., Elizabeth, NJ Filed Oct. 31, 1944. ...
Snippet view - About this book - Add to bookshelves ▼ - More editions

Official gazette of the United States Patent Office

Official gazette of the United States Patent Office, Volume 571‎ - Page i
Juvenile Nonfiction - 1945
Leather Jackets and Juvenile and boys' pile-lined coats. Serial No. 477409 ; Feb
. 27. Class 39. Drittel, Julius, Inc., Elizabeth. ..

http://www.loislaw.c...60 F. Supp. 999

DRITTEL v. FRIEDMAN, (1945)

60 F. Supp. 999

DRITTEL v. FRIEDMAN et al.

United States District Court, S.D. New York.

May 11, 1945.

West Page 1000

Action by Julius Drittel, doing business as Julius Drittel
Company, against Anna Friedman and others, copartners, doing
business as Juliana Underwear Company, for injunction against
alleged infringement of a trade-mark, and for an accounting for
profits and damages, wherein defendants filed counterclaim to
enjoin plaintiff from using the trade-mark, for damages, and an
accounting, and that plaintiff's registration of his trade-mark
be declared invalid. On plaintiff's motion to strike a certain
defense and for summary judgment dismissing the counterclaim, and
on defendants' motion for summary judgment dismissing the
complaint and for judgment for defendants.

.


Edited by Tom Scully, 21 February 2010 - 01:43 PM.


#10 Guest_Tom Scully_*

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Posted 22 February 2010 - 02:04 PM

To add a comment to the post immediately above, Julius Drittel, deceased on Feb. 5, 1953, was the brother-in-law of the NSA's John B. Hurt, a master linguist with a native's grasp of the nuances of the Japanese language, and was married to Drittel's sister, Ana. Julius Drittel's daughter, Ida, was married to Harry Rose, as shown in the descriptions of the principles in Julius Drittel's women's clothing business in New Jersey, in the post above.

Would a reasonable person have believed Oswald if he told a court that he had attempted to place a Nov. 23 call to John Hurt to tell him that he had set up a "CYA" code in the "show" mail-order transaction he had engaged in eight months prior, as protection if the need for it ever arose, instead of simply buying a revolver discreetly and locally?

That he intended to inform John Hurt that he was going to prove to the authorities that he was acquainted with, and worked for Mr. Hurt's security branch, by demonstrating that he knew Hurt's wife's maiden name and had included it on the mail-order form as "OF" Drittel, i.e., "of Dritttel? If so, could the "distribution of the name, "Hidell" been a parallel to what was performed with the insertion of "Drittel."?

This looks to me like it could be "OF", "OE" or "DF" or "DE" Drittal or Drittel. The FBI initially reported that
it was the signature of "DE" Drittal, and then changed it. What do you think is intended to appear as?

Posted Image

http://books.google....nG=Search Books
Sex, love, and the Japanese‎ - Page 37
Howard Seymour Levy - Sex customs - 1971 - 182 pages
The famed shogun Oda Nobunaga was a master at using the technique of political
marriage. He himself married the daughter of a man whom he later eliminated,
and he arranged marriages for three of his sons in such a way that they were adopted
into three powerful clans, (in Japan, to the present day the male may be adopted upon
marriage into his wife's clan, whereupon he assumes his wife's maiden name.

http://books.google....nG=Search Books
Cassidy's Run: the secret spy war over nerve gas‎ - Page 115
David Wise - Political Science - 2000 - 308 pages
In December, at his next scheduled meeting with his GRU handler, Cassidy
complained ... The GRU man was using his wife's maiden name in his career as a
spy,

http://books.google....r...sa=N&tab=wp

Warsaw death ring, 1939-1944‎ - Page 347
Władysław Bartoszewski - History - 1968 - 450 pages
... the West German authorities finally arrested Wilhelm Koppe who had till then
been living peacefully under the cover of his wife's maiden name, Lohmann.

http://books.google....nG=Search Books

Roosevelt's secret war: FDR and World War II espionage‎ - Page 198
Joseph E. Persico - History - 2002 - 564 pages
... who had refashioned himself, using his wife's maiden name, as a Scotsman
named Douglas. The handsome couple were welcome adornments to New York...

http://books.google....nG=Search Books

Book of honor: covert lives and classified deaths at the CIA‎ - Page 323
Ted Gup - History - 2000 - 390 pages
... collect call from someone named Grant Eugene Turner, she would know it was
from him. The name was a corruption of his wife's maiden name, Gracie Tyner.

http://books.google....nG=Search Books

Feet to the fire: CIA covert operations in Indonesia, 1957-1958‎ - Page 158
Kenneth J. Conboy, James Morrison - History - 1999 - 218 pages
Issued a new passport under his wife's maiden name, he left West New Guinea on
the last day of the year and flew to the Philippines.

http://www.time.com/...,874253,00.html
Brazil: Wherefore Art Thou, J
Friday, Jan. 06, 1961

..France, on his way to Switzerland. Then, in a Fiat borrowed in Vienna, he may have driven to Venice, where he reportedly registered at Hotelā Bauer Grunwald as Renato Stafani. In Milan, he is supposed to have registered at the Grand Hotel Duomo using his wife's maiden name of Silva.


Edited by Tom Scully, 22 February 2010 - 02:13 PM.


#11 Jim Root

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Posted 22 February 2010 - 07:41 PM

Tom

Some thoughts and speculations......

The family information that I have on Ana suggests that the Virgina Hurt's were not all that close to Ms Dritelle so I would think it very possible that the spellings that you have could very well be the correct ones.

I find the information on the "coupon" to purchase a pistol to be interesting to say the least. I have to admit that the more factual coincidences that are associated to Oswald and Hurt as well as Hurt with others associated to the assassination story to be to great to dismiss without further study.

Having stated the above this moves a timeline forward several months that I have been working with and requires a rethink of some of my thoughts.

I do believe, as I have many times stated, that Oswald was not an agent of US Intelligence per say but may well have been used by US Intelligence in the manner suggested by Angelton in Epstein's Orchid Man story. With this in mind I can imagine an Oswald story that would have several intelligence organizations that may have wanted a piece of his defection. For instance I very early on believed that the downing of Francis Gary Powers and his U-2 might be tied to the TIROS I satelite project. If my calculations were correct then this satelite, one of the first polar orbited satelites, may have been over Russia ant located above the U-2 downing and may have, using infared technology, been able to "see" Soviet missle launches. At the time I felt that the U-2 cover story of a weather plane straying off course fit well within a TIROS weather satelite launch and my limited ability to track the course of TIROS I suggested a possible link (although the U-2 downing may have been a bit far North to be able to be "seen" by TIROS).

I later discovered the Paris Summit/Limited Test Ban link to John J. McCloy and have had a tendency to feel that this link was to solid to dismiss easily. I especially seem to feel that if McCloy had used Oswald to gain a desired result (failure of the Paris Summit) using Oswald that perhaps McCloy would use Oswald again (Kennedy assassination). This seem to fit well.

But I do have two additional senarios that I have not yet discussed and have not written about because I just don't have much in the way of facts to base them upon.....only scattered pieces of evidence that suggest additional possibilities.

One additional possibility or scheme that I have toyed with has to do with the way that Rudolph Abel was captured and that Abel then became the spy that was exchanged for Francis Gary Powers after the U-2 Incident. The Abel story plays in well with the Venona info and such as does the prosecutions of Julius and Ethel Rosenburg. We now know that the Venona intel led to the arrests of Rosenburgs but that the use of the Venona intercepts could not be presented in court, therefore other info needed to be presented that led to the conviction and execution of the Rosenburgs. Once again we find Hurt associates Rowlett and Gardiner providing the intelligence that led to these arrests and convictions.......I see plenty of reasons to suggest that Hurt may have been involved in the gathering of this information as well.

A third one that continues to pop up into my mind but has only the foundation of air, is that perhaps Hurt was a Socialist and had Socialist connections in addition to his NSA employment. Once again there is no foundation for this except what I have read of his writtings and that all seem to suggest that he was "Liberal" in his political views (rather shakey to say the least). But I must admit that Oswald's early letter to the Socialist Workers Party does, I believe, play into this thing in some shape or form.

Perhaps we can discuss these thoughts further.

Jim Root

Edited by Jim Root, 22 February 2010 - 08:04 PM.


#12 Guest_Tom Scully_*

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Posted 22 February 2010 - 09:46 PM

From my last post....

....Would a reasonable person have believed Oswald if he told a court that he had attempted to place a Nov. 23 call to John Hurt to tell him that he had set up a "CYA" code in the "show" mail-order transaction he had engaged in eight months prior, as protection if the need for it ever arose, instead of simply buying a revolver discreetly and locally?

That he intended to inform John Hurt that he was going to prove to the authorities that he was acquainted with, and worked for Mr. Hurt's security branch, by demonstrating that he knew Hurt's wife's maiden name and had included it on the mail-order form as "OF" Drittel, i.e., "of Dritttel? If so, could the "distribution of the name, "Hidell" been a parallel to what was performed with the insertion of "Drittel."?

This looks to me like it could be "OF", "OE" or "DF" or "DE" Drittal or Drittel. The FBI initially reported that
it was the signature of "DE" Drittal, and then changed it. What do you think is intended to appear as?....

This information, apparently long buried in the Dallas DA's office safe, seems to bolster my theory, and raises the question, if a theme of the investigation was that Hidell was a person of interest's maiden name, how great of a leap would it have been to put the name "Drittal", or "Drittel" through the same investigative theme? Maybe they did and it led them to John Hurt, and then they had to bury the result. Consider that the FBI and WC fashioned a timeline that first makes them aware of the name "DE Drittal," as they first chose to interpret the "witness" signature, on Nov. 30.

Or...the Dallas PD was intentionally fed a false lead about Ruth Paine's maiden name, for the purpose of discouraging
investigators from attempting to match "Drittal" with maiden names linked to other names that "popped up" in the course of the investigation.....names like, "John Hurt." After all, they had the opportunity to bury the name John Hurt and anything associated with him, as early as late in the day of Nov. 23.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box13.htm
15. Criminal Intelligence Report, by H. M. Hart. Report to Captain W. P. Gannaway through Lt. Jack Revill concerning Ruth Paine's maiden name of Hidell. Page 3 is a photocopy of a newspaper clipping of Lee Harvey Oswald holding a rifle, (Photocopy), 02/27/64. 00002791 3 pages 13 05 015 2791-001.gif 2791-002.gif 2791-003.gif


I also stumbled on this, FWIW.

http://coverthistory...und-by-jim.html

Here is a flight plan found by Jim Garrison during his investigation in New Orleans. Hidell was an alias of Oswald, Lambert allegedly an alias of Clay Shaw.
Posted Image

posted by gary at 4:54 PM


Thank you, Jim, you're insights and investigative results are several levels above mine, so I am having some difficulty knowing how to respond to your offer to further discuss the poiints you raise related to John Hurt's background, the U-2, the satellite positioning, it's capabilities, and the intent and timing of the U-2 shoot down.

I'm not sure if you are implying that the political leanings of Hurt and Oswald were in synch, but if you are, I'm not sure it matters, since I strongly suspect Oswald only devoted himself to posing as a "marxist".

Brief exposure to John Hurt's family background impresses me to suspect it was not a "liberal" one. His mother's brother, Joseph Shaffer, who as a one term congressman had set up Hurt's interview with William F Friedman,
had been Wythe County, VA, district attorney, and seemed to have typical views for the time and location.

http://www.time.com/...,732570,00.html
RACES: De Priest Sequelac
Monday, Jul. 01, 1929
Congressman Oscar De Priest of Illinois continued last week to be the most conspicuous Negro in the U. S. The race issue raised by Mrs. De Priest's acceptance of a perfunctory invitation to tea at the White House (TIME, June 24) where, according to her husband she made "some fine contacts," was politically prodded from all sides, kept alive...

...Undismayed, last week at the failure (because of a visual defect) of his Candidate Charles E. Weir to pass the physical examination for the U. S. Naval Academy, Congressman De Priest said he would continue to appoint Negroes to fill his district's vacancies in the service schools....

....Arrayed against Congressman De Priest was many a southern politician. Virginia's Republican Representative Joseph C. Shaffer, refusing the De Priest musicale invitation, warned the Negro congressman: "You are now embarking on a perilous course which will, if you continue, disturb relations which have long been amicably settled in the South."....


Jim, I read in the article I posted earlier that John Hurt learned to speak Japanese from Japanese college roommates and had many Japanese friends. The article did not report where Hurt went to college, do you know?

On edit, I just found possible answers to some of my questions.

http://www.flickr.co...oks/3297663777/

Posted Image

He taught himself Japanese without going to school or having any formal training. He had a Japanese neighbor and some Japanese roomates at the University of Virginia and managed to absorb his knowledge of the language from them. ...


Edited by Tom Scully, 22 February 2010 - 10:05 PM.


#13 Jim Root

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Posted 23 February 2010 - 02:14 AM

Tom

You may want to take a look at the Eugene Dinkin Thread that I recently brought back up. Just another connection with the NSA in France while John B. Hurt was in France after retirement.

As far as the college education of John B. Hurt:

In 1921 (at the age of 17) Hurt enrolled in the College of William and Mary (15 credits) then transfered to Roanoke College in Salem, Virgina. From 1927 - 1928 he attended the Education School of The University of Virginia. There seems to be some indication that he attended Johns Hopkins University but does not appear in any alumni records. In the summer of 1929 Hurt studied French at the University of Paris. Because of his lack of ability in mathematics Hurt did not obtain a degree during this early period of his life but did attend the University of Maryland in 1951 and 1953 and obtained a Bachelor of Arts degree in French.

Must say that I take Oswald at his word on being a Trotskyite Socialist....but hey we can differ....may explain alot of his missing time in Mexico City.....

The Liberal aspect:

Hurt, as a young boy, first learned Japanese from a missionary who had worked in Japan from his hometown. Hurt requested Japanese roomates and he seemed to "hang" with Japanese students. I would suspect a white college student from Virginia in the 1920's rooming with a Japanese student would seem rather liberal at that point in time. It seems that Hurt's one lifelong friend from his college days was a gentleman named Masao Maura.

I Hurt's 1947 document he makes reference to the heroics of the Spanish Communists and their fight against Facists forces in Spain.....something that today we would consider somewhat liberal but at the time was common among the youth of that day. None the less some of the most ardent Socialists/Communists of the period were gathering in support of the anti-fascist in Spain.

Hurt understood the War against Japan but seems to have worked hard to help in the negotiations to end it prior to the Atomic Bomb being dropped. It is in these efforts that we find Hurt crossing paths with Meridith Gardner who was working on Soviet Translations and codes while the Japanese were attempting to gain the support of the Soviets in gaining a negotiated end of the War with the US. Hurt seems to have been very disapointed in the US use of the Atomic Bomb and it is interesting that John J. McCloy would quote Hurt almost exactly when McCloy made his arguemnts to Truman to enter into negotiations with the Japanese to end the War rather than using the Atomic Bomb (not in any way intended to suggest that Hurt was aware of the Atomic Bomb prior to its use, just that Hurt was aware of the efforts on the part of Japan to negotiate and end to the war and that Hurt's information made it into the hands of John J. McCloy).

Jim Root

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#14 John Dolva

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Posted 23 February 2010 - 06:57 AM

Jim, when did Oswald say he was a Trotskyite Socialist?

#15 Greg Parker

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Posted 23 February 2010 - 12:25 PM

Jim, when did Oswald say he was a Trotskyite Socialist?


He never. Ruth Paine allegedly called him that(or said that he called himself that?).

What is not shown in the records is that the term is derogatory.

I apologise in advance for asking, as I'm sure it has been discussed already, but I just don't have the time to go through all the threads searching for it. Could someone plase give me a brief overview of how and why it has been determined that John B Hurt was the owner of the number listed under John W Hurt?

Is everyone aware that John D Hurt admitted late in life that he 'd made the call in a drunken state? If this is true, then it was an inbound call, not an outbound one. One theory is that the information written down as a result of that inbound call was assumed to relate to Oswald's known attempt to make a call. Except that that call was to try and contact Abt. This makes sense to me - EXCEPT that the notation has two John Hurts and two numbers listed. That could not happen as a simple response to a call from John D Hurt - unless perhaps in his drunken state he only left is name and town of residence and the operater subsequently looked up all John Hurts residing in Raleigh and wrote both names and numbers down.

This should not be taken as meaning I dismiss the ongoing discussion here. I don't. I think it has great potential.

On the name on the order form: To my eye, I'd say it could be "OF Drittal" or "DF Drittal". Since the FBI questioned document expet thought it was "DF", I'll stick with that. I see no reason to befieve he got it wrong. I don't think any other combinations are likely.

Since Oswald like classical music, did Ana perhaps play on any recordings he happened to own? Probably impossible to answer, but it is one way he may have come across the name.

Can it be determined why the FBI was interested in a "Ana Hidell"? I don't believe they arbitrarily decided that the "A" in A Hidell might stand for "Ana". I mean, why not look for an "Arnold Hidell", "Amelia Hidell", or "Aloysius hidell"? To me, that's one of the more compelling aspects of this: the Ana coincidence piled on top of the Drittal/Drittel conundrum.

Jim,

we're closer than I ever suspected we were. The Test Ban Treaty talks is the key (IMO) to Oswald's Soviet trip. We just differ on the driving force.

If I have it right, you suspect Trotskyists as being behind the assassination. I have the movement that largely grew out of that as being deeply involved: the Neocons.




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