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The Three Tramps


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#16 J. Raymond Carroll

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 03:27 PM

How are they necessary to any assassination scenario?


That remains to be determined, like so much in this case.

On this page from Weberman's site, about 3/4ths of the way down
http://ajweberman.co...other/index.htm

this caption appears: "A sketch of the assassin of Martin Luther King and the CHRIST tramp." (BTW I am not persuaded that Christ is Frenchy)

I am unable to post the images, but I think anyone who checks it out will be struck by the resemblance between "Frenchy" and the guy in the King sketch. So these "tramp" photos may be important not only in the JFK case, but also in solving the King assassination. And I have no doubt that the guy in the King sketch is NOT Harold Doyle.

But the man of the moment is Howard Hunt. I am 99.9% certain that Hunt is the oldman tramp, and Hunt's eldest son is similarly convinced. To my aging eyes, the La Fontaine candidate for oldman tramp has big cauliflower ears, unlike the ears on the oldman tramp and unlike the ears of Howard Hunt.

Jim Di Eugenio suggests that researchers risk being ridiculed if we pursue this issue. Jim is undoubtedly correct if he is referring to outfits like the New York Times, but his concern appears to be unwarranted if we are talking about Rolling Stone Magazine.

#17 Christopher Hall

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 04:56 PM


How are they necessary to any assassination scenario?


That remains to be determined, like so much in this case.

On this page from Weberman's site, about 3/4ths of the way down
http://ajweberman.co...other/index.htm

this caption appears: "A sketch of the assassin of Martin Luther King and the CHRIST tramp." (BTW I am not persuaded that Christ is Frenchy)

I am unable to post the images, but I think anyone who checks it out will be struck by the resemblance between "Frenchy" and the guy in the King sketch. So these "tramp" photos may be important not only in the JFK case, but also in solving the King assassination. And I have no doubt that the guy in the King sketch is NOT Harold Doyle.

But the man of the moment is Howard Hunt. I am 99.9% certain that Hunt is the oldman tramp, and Hunt's eldest son is similarly convinced. To my aging eyes, the La Fontaine candidate for oldman tramp has big cauliflower ears, unlike the ears on the oldman tramp and unlike the ears of Howard Hunt.

Jim Di Eugenio suggests that researchers risk being ridiculed if we pursue this issue. Jim is undoubtedly correct if he is referring to outfits like the New York Times, but his concern appears to be unwarranted if we are talking about Rolling Stone Magazine.



Well said, Raymond.

It's hard to believe that the older man isn't Hunt, who has admitted he was in DP on 11-22-63.

#18 Karl Kinaski

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 05:14 PM



Karl: Having listened to the Garrison-Carson confrontation, to segregate out JG trying to show the photo is to misrepresent what happened.

Carson had clearly been briefed in advance on the case. Garrison said he had cards he was following. If you listen to the show, Garrison could not get anything out which Carson did not contest about the JFK case.


Carson had no clue that Big Jim had this pic (of the three tramps) with him: it was a complete surprise for Carson, when G took it out of his case...thats why Carson grabbed Garrisons arm in panic! A funny example of censorship back in the sixties...

regards

KK

Edited by Karl Kinaski, 26 July 2010 - 05:17 PM.


#19 Steve Thomas

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 06:49 PM

The tramps are a single thread in the fabric of evidence.

They should not be discarded for lack of importance, since we do not know their significance.

If the thread ever becomes unraveled, it may add to our understanding of the assassination, and may not.

But PLEASE...do not dismiss them as insignificant. Their significance is still unknown.

Jack


I don't know their identities, but they are an intriguing trio.

WHEN DID YOU ARRIVE IN DALLAS?

John Gedney (FBI) 2/26/92: They got into Dallas on November 21st and had no place to stay. They stayed for the night and part of the next day.

WHEN DID YOU FIRST LEARN THAT KENNEDY HAD BEEN SHOT?

Gedney (FBI) 2/26/92): They “heard about President Kennedy getting shot and then they left the Salvation Army wanting to “catch out”.

WERE THE TRAMPS CLEAN OR DIRTY?

Both commented that they had gotten fresh clothes, showered, shaved and had a meal. They headed back to the railroad yard when they heard all the commotion and sirens and everything, and they asked what happened. They were told the president had been shot.

William Earl Chambers was interviewed on 3/3/92 by SA Gary Gerszewski of the FBI and Lieutenant Kenneth Lybrand, City of Dallas Police Department.

William Chambers worked for the City of Dallas Police Department from October, 1954 until January, 1992. He was later assigned as a Detective in the Forgery Division.

“Chambers described the hobos as “dirty”. Chambers noted that they were not wearing socks and their clothes did not appear to be clean”
(Original documents ascribed these comments to Jones. Jones was scratched out and Chambers inserted.

Marvin Wise was interviewed by SA Gary Gerszewski of the FBI and Lieutenant Kenneth Lybrand, City of Dallas Police Department on 3/6/92

“Wise described the men as dirty and smelly. He indicated the pictures of them do not do them justice. Wise explained that you had to look closely at the pictures to recognize just how dirty the three were”.


WHAT KIND OF RAILROAD CAR WERE YOU ON WHEN YOU WERE ARRESTED?

Bill Bass (FBI) 6/15/92: “a grain car.”
Marvin Wise 3/6/92: Wise was told that the three men climbed into a coal car.
John Gedney FBI 2/26/92 “Gedney said that he thought they were lying on big sheets of steel on a flatbed railroad car when the police came over with guns, said don’t move and then arrested them and took them over to the Dallas City jail.
Harold Doyle FBI 2/20/92 “They then got on a gondola, also known as a coal car, and were heading towards Fort Worth, when the train was stopped.”
Doyle and Gedney’s arrest record: "These men were taken off a train boxcar in the rail yards right after President Kennedy as shot,"
William Chambers: When questioned the three individuals said they were “on a freight car sleeping.”


WHAT WERE YOU DOING WHEN YOU WERE ARRESTED?

William Chambers: “When questioned regarding the circumstances of their arrest, the three individuals indicated that they were on a freight car sleeping when they were wakened by officers with different colored uniforms than the ones worn by the officers who drove them down to the station.

Marvin Wise told the FBI: He arrived and parked near the railroad tracks. He went to the TSBD and was assigned to the west side of the TSBD. “He was sitting in his car and a man working in the railroad building waved at him. Wise and another officer (name forgotten) were told by the man that three men got into a boxcar about four or five hundred yards down the track. Wise, in company with Bill Bass, Roy Vaughn and Middleton (although Middleton denies that he was there) went to the boxcars and took the men of the boxcar”.

So were they freshly showered, or were they dirty and smelly?

Did they learn of JFK's assassination before they left the Salvation Army, or afterwards?

Were they in a coal car, or on a flatbed freight car?

Did they walk to the police station, or were they driven?

The arrest records for Doyle, Abrams, and Gedney say that they were taken off a train boxcar right after the President was shot, but the arrest record gives the time of arrest as 4:00PM - nearly 3 ˝ hours later.

Marvin Wise was interviewed by the House Select Committee on Assassinations on November 14, 1977 at 9:00AM at Dallas Police Headquarters. HSCA 180-10112 10156. Wise was a Dallas Policeman on November 22, 1963 and assigned to District #71 Radio Patrol in south Dallas. Wise on a robbery call at the far end of south Dallas when the dispatcher told #71 to go Code 3 to the TSBD and report to the supervisor. (According to the Dispatch Tapes of Channel 1, Wise reported his location at 12:38pm)

12:38 DIS: 71, robbery of an individual, 2205 Cockrell. 12:38.
At approximately 12:42pm, 71 reported his location as Corinth and Harwood:
DIS: 71.
71: Corinth and Harwood.
DIS: Code 3.

Many squads were being instructed at this point to proceed to Elm and Houston Code 3.

He arrived and parked near the railroad tracks. He went to the TSBD and was assigned to the west side of the TSBD.

Wise stated that the men acted scared and he could smell wine on the breath of one of them. Wise took the men over to the Sheriff’s Office, and while waiting to turn them over, asked the men for identification. Wise stated that he believes that two of the men had documented ID’s. He wrote the ID’s down on a piece of paper and put them in his hat. “He turned the men over to the Sheriff’s Office (Deputy name unknown), ( I believe this Deputy to be Harold Elkins) and went back to his radio”. He heard over the police radio that a policeman had been shot, and a little later heard that it was J.D. Tippit”.

Notice the timing. The tramps have been picked up and are in the station when Wise hears about Tippit. (Officially, Tippit was shot at approximately 1:16pm)

I believe, with William Chambers, that they were, in fact, arrested twice, once by the Dallas County Sheriff's office, and a second time by the Dallas City Police Department.

Steve Thomas

#20 David Andrews

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 06:49 PM

Carson opposed having Garrison on his show, and did as much as he could to diminish him that night - possibly because of JG's notoriety and smeared reputation, and aside from any pressure from NBC and its owners. It was NBC that insisted that Carson have JG on.

But when Garrison pulled out the Three Tramps photo, Carson's immediate concern and primal fear might have been that he and NBC could be sued by the subjects in the pictures. So cutting the presentation at that point may have been for legal worries rather than conspiracy cover-up.

The complicating, unexpected photo was probably the straw that snapped the whole enterprise for Johnny.

Edited by David Andrews, 27 July 2010 - 01:52 AM.


#21 Karl Kinaski

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 07:51 PM





Karl: Having listened to the Garrison-Carson confrontation, to segregate out JG trying to show the photo is to misrepresent what happened.

Carson had clearly been briefed in advance on the case. Garrison said he had cards he was following. If you listen to the show, Garrison could not get anything out which Carson did not contest about the JFK case.


Carson had no clue that Big Jim had this pic (of the three tramps) with him: it was a complete surprise for Carson, when G took it out of his case...thats why Carson grabbed Garrisons arm in panic! A funny example of censorship back in the sixties...

regards

KK


Hey, does anybody have video of Garrison's Carson appearance?


I wish I would have one. I took the story from Garrisons book "On the trail of the assassins."

LKK

#22 David Andrews

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 09:20 PM

Here's the link to an AUDIO ONLY multi-part upload on YouTube. The Carson estate probably has the video locked down.



UPDATE: This is not the version I listened to within the last year, in which the audio ran all the way to the Three Tramps photo and the cutoff of the interview. This Von Pein upload ends before the famous cutoff...

If I can find complete audio again, I'll post the link.

Edited by David Andrews, 27 July 2010 - 02:54 AM.


#23 J. Raymond Carroll

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 12:31 PM

I don't know their identities, but they are an intriguing trio.
Steve Thomas


Steve: Can you please point us to where we can find the FBI reports etc. quoted in your post?

#24 Steve Thomas

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 08:40 PM

Ray,

Steve: Can you please point us to where we can find the FBI reports etc. quoted in your post?


I got them off Denis Morissette's web page, but when I just went to copy the url it tells me that that page is no longer available.

He had a treasure trove of documents relating to the three tramps.

The last email address I had for him was: denismorissette@yahoo.com

Steve

#25 Steve Thomas

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 09:25 PM

Ray,

I got them off Denis Morissette's web page, but when I just went to copy the url it tells me that that page is no longer available.

He had a treasure trove of documents relating to the three tramps.


You can find Denis Morissette's documents here:

http://jfkassassinat...s.com/documents

Steve Thomas

#26 J. Raymond Carroll

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 12:07 AM

You can find Denis Morissette's documents here:

http://jfkassassinat...s.com/documents


Thank you Steve, this is greatly appreciated.

The La Fontaine's are OBVIOUSLY a pair of chancers, and I submit that the "tramp" issue is potentially a VERY fruitful area of research for anyone SERIOUSLY and SCRUPULOUSLY interested in resolving this case. It is a dead issue only to those interested in playing ego games.




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