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THE KENNEDY CASKET CONSPIRACY


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#31 Bernice Moore

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 03:08 PM

General Godfrey McHugh HSCA Record Number 180-10078-10465 Agency File Number 009414 Originator-HSCA From: Godfrey McHugh To: -- Date: 5/11/78 Pages: 5 Subjects: Motorcade Assassination Return of remains to D.C. LBJ JFK autopsy Release Date: 10/22/93 Contents: Report by HSCA investigator Mark Flanagan on telephone interview with McHugh. Document follows in full. KENNEDY SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS NAME Brigadier General Godfrey McHugh DATE 5-11-78 TIME ADDRESS 5241 Partridge Lane, N.W. PLACE Telephone interview Washington, D.C. Interview: I spoke to General McHugh by telephone on May 11, 1978 concerning his presence at the autopsy of President Kennedy. McHugh currently resides at 5241 Partridge Lane, N.W., Washington, D.C. His phone number is (202) 244-5241. At the time of the assassination McHugh served as the Air Force Military Aide of the President. As such, he regularly travelled with the President during official visits and commanded Air Force I. Consequently, McHugh accompanied the President's body back to Bethesda. McHugh stated that the purpose of the Texas trip was to provide "full exposure" of the President to the people of Dallas and thus politically "win" the Texans. Ordinarily McHugh rode in the Presidential limousine in the front seat. This was the first time he was instructed not to ride in the car so that all attention would be focused on the President to accentuate full exposure. McHugh recalled that during the motorcade he distinctly heard three shots in succession, as did John Clifton who was Interviewer Signature /s/ Mark Flanagan Typed Signature Mark Flanagan Date transcribed br 5-24-78 [end of page one] Brigadier General Godfrey McHugh Page 2. riding beside him. McHugh immediately scanned the area but did not discern any assassin or assassins. McHugh said that the shots originated from above and in the vicinity of the TSBD. After the Parkland doctors pronounced the President dead McHugh said that the Presidential Party received notice that the President's body was not to be removed from Texas. The Secret Service and the President's aides decided, however, that the President's body was in their custody and that they should remove it from Texas. McHugh assisted the Secret Service agents in removing the casket from the hospital. In the process McHugh recalled that the police and Mayor Cabal stopped them and informed them that they would be breaking the law if they removed the body. McHugh then told the Texas authorities that he didn't understand how he could be breaking the law when he was only following orders and then, together with the S.S. agents, proceeded to "politely push everything out of the way" and transport the body to Air Force I. Once the President's body, Jackie Kennedy, the Secret Service agents, McHugh and some others were aboard Air Force I, Ken O'Donnell told McHugh to take off for Washington. McHugh learned from the pilot, however, that Vice President Johnson had already assumed control of Air Force I and had ordered the plane to remain on the ground until further notice. This was to allow transfer of materials from Air Force II to I and to allow [end of page two] Brigadier General Godfrey McHugh Page 3. for the arrival of various persons for the swearing-in ceremony. During this time McHugh began looking for Johnson to discuss the situation. The pilot told McHugh that Johnson had already boarded Air Force I. McHugh had encountered difficulty in locating Johnson but finally discovered him alone "hiding in the toilet in the bedroom compartment and muttering, `Conspiracy, conspiracy, they're after all of us.'" McHugh then attempted to calm Johnson. During the flight to Andrews Air Force Base in Washington McHugh sat with Mrs. Kennedy next to the President's casket in the rear of Air Force I. McHugh said Mrs. Kennedy instructed McHugh "not to leave the body of the President" until it was finally prepared for burial. After arriving at Andrews McHugh said he rode with the President's body, Mrs. Kennedy, and Robert Kennedy in an ambulance to the Bethesda Naval Hospital for the performance of an autopsy. McHugh remained with the body and witnessed the autopsy while the family members maintained vigil in a suite at the hospital. McHugh recalled that his first thought during the autopsy was how yellow the body appeared to be. He remembered that the autopsy doctors remarked that this was not unusual in this situation. McHugh did not ask for further elaboration. McHugh said the basic purpose of the autopsy was to deter- [end of page three] Brigadier General Godfrey McHugh Page 4. mine what exactly killed the President. He said Secret Service men were present as well as the three principal pathologists. During the autopsy no one was permitted to enter or leave. McHugh did not have specific recollection concerning the location of the wounds or the discussions among the doctors. McHugh did say that the pathologists recorded minute notes and that he recalled a wound to the throat. A primary concern was locating any fragments of lead. McHugh said that Bobby Kennedy and Ken O'Donnell frequently telephoned him during the autopsy from their suite. On all occasions RFK and O'Donnell only asked to speak with McHugh. McHugh said they inquired about the results, about why the autopsy was taking so much time, and about the need for speed and efficiency while still performing the required examinations. McHugh said he never stated or implied that the doctors should limit the autopsy in any manner but merely reminded them to work as efficiently and quickly as possible. McHugh said that even after he would inform RFK and O'Donnell that the autopsy would require several hours they would still frequently call to ask why it was taking so long and when it would be completed. McHugh recalled that O'Donnell and the Secret Service instructed that all procedures related to the body should be performed at Bethesda to reduce security risks. After preparations at Bethesda were complete, McHugh accompanied the body to the White House where it was placed [end of page four] Brigadier General Godfrey McHugh Page 5. in the East Room. McHugh stated that he formerly worked with Presidents Roosevelt, Truman and Eisenhower. After retiring from the military, Magnavox employed McHugh as a Vice President. McHugh is currently fully retired. [end of page five and end of document]

Edited by Bernice Moore, 07 December 2010 - 03:12 PM.


#32 Bernice Moore

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 03:13 PM

General Godfrey McHugh .

#33 Greg Burnham

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 10:17 PM

Posted for Bernice


[Nt;VanHoesen&BodyBag;PerDH;9/03—sanitized]* p/o to pdf, 12/6/10 *Names connected with TV news staff are redacted for privacy reasons
Email from Doug Horne to me, in late September, 2003, regarding preparation for appearance on a TV news show. Main value: this email succinctly explains the importance of new body bag witness found by ARRB (Van Hoesen), and importance of Boyajian report, with the time of arrival of the body as 6:35 PM.
-----Original Message-----
What this is:
From:
To: Subject: Joan,
Horne, Douglas P
(TV producer) HOT TIPS RE: The Stuff I Gave You
Sent: Friday, September 26, 2003 8:59 AM
It has been a pleasure working with someone of your professionalism, and with someone so "straight" about what questions were going to be asked. I didn't get any "ambush questions" yesterday, and everything I was asked was a topic which I expected to be discussed based upon the conversations you and I had before the interview. Thank you.
HOT TIP(s):
Boyajian:
We obtained an authenticated copy of a report written by a Marine Sergeant (in charge of the security detail at the morgue) named Roger Boyajian the week after the assassination, in which he states "the casket arrived at 1835;" that's 6:35 PM. We know for a fact that JFK's heavy 435 lb. bronze Dallas Casket (obviously empty) arrived out in front of Bethesda Naval Hospital at 6:55 PM, and that it was not driven around to the morgue until about 7:15. We also know that the official casket team (honor guard) report says they carried the Dallas casket in at "2000" (8 PM). (Yes, we have multiple casket entries going on here, for different audiences. A massive shell game.)
It corroborates 100% the report of Dennis David (from 1975 on) that he met a "cheap, metal shipping casket" at the morgue
One more thing: I forgot to mention that Lifton's hypothesis of 2 different
caskets arriving and 2 different sets of body wrappings---both further proof of
body interception and alteration---were backed up by new evidence obtained
by the ARRB.
To cut to the chase, the Boyajian document "proves" the President's body
arrived before the motorcade from Andrews AFB, thereby "proves" that the
body was intercepted in transit.
[Nt;VanHoesen&BodyBag;PerDH;9/03—mildly sanitized] 2
entrance about 6:45 PM and that it was taken out of a BLACK HEARSE (not a gray Navy ambulance) by "men in suits" (not a military honor guard), and carried into the morgue anteroom by he and his sailors. (Boswell, by the way, told David after the autopsy that the President was in the cheap metal casket that he and his sailors handled. A "shipping casket"...not the bronze, heavy ceremonial casket from Dallas.)
(And. . .In addition. . . )
Another Body Bag Witness
The ARRB also interviewed a fellow named Van Hoesen (one of the embalmers who was present for the whole autopsy), who relayed to us that the President's body was removed form a "body bag." This is critical, since the body was wrapped in sheets, not a body bag, when it left Dallas. Van Hoesen is an additional body bag witness, and corroborates the testimony of med. tech. Paul O'Connor, who told the HSCA about the body bag in 1977.
Now, I know you will not have time to cover these two things above (casket and body bag) unless your show gets extended and you get 90 minutes instead of 60 minutes. But if you do get more time, you should use this information.
Well, that's it! I won't bother you with any more new information. I know it's getting too late in the game for that. But I wanted you and Josh** to know about these things and give you the opportunity to work them into the script if you think it's a good idea.
Thanks again for all your interest, and for your professionalism. Doug ** Pseudonym for staff producer

#34 Greg Burnham

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 10:19 PM

For Bernice:

Document name: [BethesdaTimeLine (graphic); “3entriesOf2caskets”;62098]* *DSL Note, 12/6/10;Doc name changed slightly, for clarify; minor edits & spell check
(depicting three distinct events: i.e., three entries of two caskets)1
-------------->|-------------------------->|---------------------------------->|------------>
#1 #2 #3
TIME LINE OF EVENTS AT BETHESDA
6:35 PM* 7:14/7:17 PM** 8 PM***
Shipping casket delivered
1st arrival of
Dallas casket
2nd arrival
to the morgue entrance; arrives in
black hearse; escorted by plainclothes agents and men in morgue smocks. Inside casket, body is in a body bag.2
large (empty)
; escorted by two Secret Service agents (Kellerman
and Greer); assisted by FBI agents Sibert and O'Neill.
(the official entry
now containing JFK's body. Escorted by Godfrey McHugh and
MDW casket team.3.
) of the
same Dallas casket;
* Time as recorded in report of Marine Security Detail (Boyajian report, obtained by ARRB [and listed as “MD-236” in the Doug Horne compilation]). Description of event as recollected by Dennis David, Officer of the Day [See Ch 25 of BEST EVIDENCE], and Donald Rebentisch, who helped unload this casket.4
** Time as recorded in FBI and Army documents.5 *** Time as recorded in official MDW Casket Team report.6
1 Based on detailed analysis and interviews from BEST EVIDENCE: Disguise and Deception in the Assassination of John F. Kennedy; first published in 1981 by Macmillan, later by Dell (1982); Carroll and Graf (1988) and New American Library (1993). See Chapters 16, 25-28, 31. Also based on various documents released since that time, or acquired by the Assassination Records and Review Board (ARRB).
2 For arrival of casket in black hearse, see account of Dennis David, as set forth in BEST EVIDENCE, Chapter 25. Also see filmed account in BEST EVIDENCE: The Research Video. For description of body being removed from body bag, see account of Paul O'Connor, Chapter 26, BEST EVIDENCE; for filmed account, see BEST EVIDENCE: The Research Video. 3 During the period between 7:12 and 8 PM, the MDW casket team "lost" the casket they were attempting to escort from the front to the back of the hospital. They were told by senior military officials that, for security purposes, more than one ambulance was being used, and that they had followed the "decoy ambulance" by mistake. 4 See BEST EVIDENCE, Chapter 25, for the detailed account of Dennis David. See 1982 Epilogue-- -included in all subsequent editions---for account of Donald Rebentisch, who came forward the week that BEST EVIDENCE was published (January, 1981), and was the subject of news stories. 5 See BEST EVIDENCE, Chapter 28, for description and citations to these documents. 6 See BEST EVIDENCE, Chapter 16 (describing the "ambulance chase") for all details and documents re the MDW casket team and the confusion caused by the "decoy ambulance."

#35 Greg Burnham

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 10:20 PM

For Bernice:

[BethesdaTimeLine;635-8pm;6/05;Rv2;12/6/10]
p/o to pdf, 12/6/10 3:30 PM
Rv 1= 6/10/05; revised, 8/15/05
Rv 2: Doc name changed, to spell out words, add the date etc. Also; additional minor edits, 12/6/10;p/o xxx
The three documents are: the report of the Marine Security Detail (6:35 p.m. entry below); the FBI document generated by
Sibert and O’Neill, after being interviewed in March, 1964, by WC attorney Specter (and which is corroborated by the Army document cited below (See 7:17 P.M. entry); and the report of the MDW Casket Team (See 8 P.M. entry below).
“3 Entries of 2 caskets”--Time Line of Events at Bethesda on evening of 11/22,
when two coffins arrived (and the second one entered twice)
MAJOR POINT: This time line shows that, according to official documents,
there are “3 entries of 2 caskets.”
•6:35 p.m.;
•7:17 p.m.
•8:00 p.m.
Entry of the shipping casket (per report of Marine Security Detail, headed by Sgt. Roger Boyajian; “MD-236” in ARRB collection.
(first) entry of Dallas casket (per data supplied by FBI agents Sibert and O’Neill, when interviewed by Specter, March 64; also, from report of Army Provost Marshall Col. Phillpe Boas, who was with MDW General Wehle “and his aide” (who would be Lt. Lipsey); and who reports that autopsy began at “about” 7:14 pm. (See Best Evidence, Ch. 19).1
(second) entry of Dallas casket—per report of MDW Casket Team report, headed by Lt. Sam Bird. (See Ch. 25, B.E.. for further details)
NOTE: This time line discussion—made into a separate document here—has been copied from [Mm;S&O,Reinterpreted;6|10|5], which is, quoting from that document, a re-interpretation (actually, a fine tuning) of the information in the Sibert and O’Neill FBI report.. The major accomplishment of that document is to focus on the distinction between what O’Connor witnessed (at 6:35 pm) and what the FBI reported (which must have been at 7:17). O’Connor said that the JFK was “naked” except for a sheet around the head, “a bloody sheet”; S & O report that the body was “covered” with a sheet, and there was a “second wrapping” on the head. Etc. This difference suggests that between 6:35 pm and 7:17 pm, JFK’s body was [fully covered] covered with a sheet, and returned to the Dallas casket (so that when S and O entered the morgue—after the delay they themselves noted in their report—they would see JFK’s body removed “from the casket in which it had been transported” (which is what they wrote) and which apparently refers to the Dallas casket (which, they believed, [had] contained the body).
1 See Footnote at bottom of page in Ch 19, B.E., which begins: “On December 6, 1979, I filed a FOIA request with the Military District of Washington . . “
This (new) focus on the difference in description between what O’Connor
observed (at 6:35 p.m.) and what Sibert and O’Neill report states (which
applies to a few minutes after 7:17 p.m.) is the answer to those (e.g. Weisberg)
[BethesdaTimeLine;635-8pm;6/05;Rv2;12/6/10] 2
who have cited the S & O description as failing to support O’Connor’s
observation that JFK’s body arrived in a body bag.
The explanation is very simple: that particular fact is not in the S & O report because their
observations took place somewhere in the vicinity of 7:35 p.m., whereas what O’Connor saw took place a few minutes after 6:35 p.m. (almost an hour earlier)—i.e., when the body first arrived in the shipping casket. So: O’Connor witnessed the body “naked. . .except for a sheet [around the head] a bloody sheet”, whereas Sibert and O’Neill report both a full-body sheet,
(quoting their report: “the head area contained an additional wrapping which was saturated with blood.”2
plus a 2nd
blood soaked wrapping, around the head
2 Sibert & O’Neill FBI report, p.3 (or, “CD 7, p. 283”)
[BethesdaTimeLine;635-8pm;6/05;Rv2;12/6/10] 3
VERBAL DESCRIPTION OF TIME LINE: (which follows):
Displays data showing 6:35 arrival of shipping casket (per report of Marine Security detail, headed by Sgt. Roger Boyajian); 6:55 arrival of Navy ambulance (per news accounts); 7:07 time when Adm Galloway drove off in ambulance with large casket (per Washington Post), and evaded the MDW casket team, who couldn’t find the casket for some 45 minutes; 7:17 when that casket was brought to the morgue (per FBI); 7:35, when Humes says autopsy began; and 8 pm when the casket team “found” the casket in an ambulance at the back of the hospital; and when the casket (which must have been brought back outside) was then brought back inside by the MDW casket team, who believed that marked the “beginning” of the autopsy (and so wrote in their report).
Note: Difference in description re “sheet” (6:35 pm versus 7:17 pm—6:35 coming from O’Connor, 7:17 coming from FBI agents) is further evidence that what O’Connor witnessed when he opened the casket and then the body bag (and this happened just subsequent to its 6:35 p.m. arrival)
., when the Dallas casket was brought to the morgue; and then, after a small delay, they were
permitted inside.
was
distinctly different from when FBI witnessed and what they understood to
be “the coffin opening” just subsequent to 7:17 p.m
[BethesdaTimeLine;635-8pm;6/05;Rv2;12/6/10] 4
TIME LINE 6:35 pm 6:55 7:07 7:17 7:35 8:00
--|-----------------------|----------------|-------------|-------------------|--------------!| 8 pm; Casket team
6:35 PM:: Body brought to morgue in shipping casket, by Marine Security detail (Report of Sgt. Boyajian. Head of detail, cites time); Dennis David & O’Connor confirms shipping casket; O’Connor says body in a body bag; naked except for a “bloody sheet” wrapped around the head.4
6:55pm Navy amb with bronze casket arrives at Bethesda5
7:07 PM
Galloway drives off in ambulance; evades casket team, but not FBI6
7:17:PM: FBI agents help bring bronze casket to morgue; kept out of room for brief period.. When they enter, say body removed “from casket in which it had been transported”. Said it was wrapped in a sheet; with “additional wrapping on the head”.7
7:35pm
Humes says autopsy begins8
3 MDW Casket Team Report (See Best Evidence, Ch. 16) 4My interview with PKO, Oct 1980; per Best Evidence Research Video 5 SS reports; wire service gives time as 6:53 pm 6 W Star gives time; W Post identifies Galloway; See Ch 16, Best Evidence, for detailed accounts of the “ambulance chase” which resulted in the casket team losing the Dallas casket. 7 Sibert and O’Neill FBI report (See Ch 12, Best Evidence) 8 Humes Warren Commission testimony
brings in bronze Dallas casket3 (for 2nd time; was also brought in at 7:17)

#36 Bernice Moore

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 10:47 PM

:DThankyou kind Sir; many times over, i owe you again... also thank you to others who offered to help in getting this information posted, appreciated, many times over....take care best b:D

#37 Greg Burnham

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 11:41 PM

You're welcome, Beans. As they say in Oz (instead of You're welcome):

"Too easy." (pronounced "tweezy")

Edited by Greg Burnham, 07 December 2010 - 11:41 PM.


#38 Duke Lane

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 11:51 PM


By way of follow-up to my previous email, which was very hurriedly written) and the documents I sent by way of explanation. . . :

Here are three items which I reviewed earlier today, and which provide a complete discussion of the whole business of "3 entries of 2 caskets."

With regard to the multiple casket entries at Bethesda, the main thing that changed between the time BEST EVIDENCE was published in January, 1981 and the present occurred during the life of the ARRB (1995 - 9/30/98). One new witness was discovered—who actually wrote a report in November 1963—and another, who was known to exist, was interviewed for the first time. These two accounts corroborated what was already published in BEST EVIDENCE, as laid out in Chapters 25 – 28. Those two witnesses are:

A.) Roger Boyajian, the Marine Sergeant who was Chief of Security at the Morgue (and who wrote a detailed report on 11/26/63).

B.) Gawler's employee Von Hoesen, who is mentioned in the Sibert and O'Neill FBI report of the autopsy (but was never interviewed).

Boyajian's report, dated 11/26/63 (not 11/22/63, as I may have indicated--that was an error. Sorry.) states that the coffin containing the body arrived at 6:35 P.M.

Von Hoesen was quite explicit that the body arrived (inside the coffin) in a body bag.

The attached 3 items should be useful, if you wish to read further about this whole matter of multiple casket entries at Bethedsa. Again, please remember: it is all laid out, at great length, in BEST EVIDENCE, but perhaps these documents will make it even clearer:

(1) A Bethesda Time Line (graphic) --spelling out these 3 arrivals, and demonstrating how each is based on solid documentation (coming from these different, and very official, USG reports —the USMC (Boyajian, and 6:35 PM), the FBI (for 7:17 PM) and the Army (for 8PM, and the MDW casket team).

(2) A Bethesda time Line (verbal)--discussing each of thee 3 arrivals

(3) An email that Doug Horne sent a TV producer, who was contemplating doing a show on this matter. The email spells out succinctly and clearly the importance of the two witnesses mentioned above: Gawler's employee Von Hoesen, and USMC Sergeant Boyajian.

Hope this helps clarify the situation.

... I'm paying attention but I don't know what I can add to the proceedings.

Certainly the black hearse was from Gawlers, and whoever was in that hearse (Robinson?) should know where the metal shipping casket came from and how the body got into it.

If they released the body to the SS in Dallas under the condition that Gen. McHugh stay with the body, then McHugh should certainly know too.

Is he in any of the photos of the swearing in? Or did he stay with the body?

And if the body was offloaded the front door right side in the metal shipping casket while the 400 pound bronze casket was removed by the fork lift truck into the white ambulance, then the metal shipping casket with the body had to be helicoptered to Bethesda, and the casket moved from the helicopeter pad to the building via the black hearse. Is that right?

Then the guys in the black hearse must know where they got the casket.

That's where my thinking leads me.


Now, where was it that I read or heard recently that "Dallas officials" had "agreed" that it would be "legally sufficient" if Admiral Burkey, JFK's physician (more logical than a "lay" general cum military aide?) was to accompany the body from Texas? I'm thinking The Kennedy Detail on TV, maybe? I'm kind of losing track with so many different sources these past bunch of days starting with the final chapter of Dick Russell's On the Trail of the JFK Assassins....

Among those sources is the TIME magazine article linked earlier in this thread which, apparently paraphrasing from Best Evidence (the subject of the article, which I've read a couple of times, but it's been a while since the last time and I've slept since then) by conjecturing that the handles of the Dallas casket (which somewhere along the line - in BE? - became known as the "Navy" casket?) were broken during a "casket shuffle" at Bethesda. It seems that Paul O'Connor told Lifton that "there was talk at the hospital afterward of a casket being rushed through the halls," after which "several witnesses reported the bronze coffin appeared damaged, including a broken handle, when it was carried into the morgue by the honor guard" [TIME article, page 3].

What makes that interesting are two - count 'em: two - competing claims in the same program aired recently by The Discovery Channel, The Kennedy Detail. The first of those claims is Clint Hill's, who first made the statement that while "we" (was Hill, who was assigned to Jackie, actually part of the bevy of men hoisting the casket onto AF1? Wasn't there time for anyone to get a lift truck to get the casket aboard, like Andrews did to help take it off?) were trying to get the casket aboard, they "had to break off the handles" to get it through the door; the second is Paul Landis', who said only a short while later that the (a?) handle broke off in his hands as he was helping to carry it off of the plane.

How do handles that have already been "broken off" to get it into the door also "break off" later when it's being removed from the plane? I would think that both statements can be validated ... or not.

While I'm only aware of Cecil Stoughton's still images of men bringing the coffin onto the plane, and no movie imagery of it, I've never gotten the impression from those that there was any delay in getting the casket aboard such that any of the men removed the handles at the top of the gangway (this should have taken a little while anyway, wouldn't it have?), and I'm thinking that it would've taken superhuman strength to have simply "broken" them off quickly enough that there was no apparent delay in Stoughton's photos. After all, the handles must have been designed to withstand the downward pressure of the weight of the casket (400 lbs, was it?) plus the body of a full-grown human (150-200+ lbs; total 600+ lbs); is it reasonable to even conjecture that a man or men could simply rip them off in seconds by exerting outward pressure?

The removal of the casket from AF1 at Andrews AFB was filmed. Once again, I'm unfamiliar with it enough that I don't know either if Landis (or, for that matter, Hill) was among the pall bearers, or where he (they) were situated relative to the camera's perspective to the casket, but if in fact the handle "broke off" in Landis' hands, is it unreasonable to suspect that he would react in some manner, such as stumbling or picking the handle up to stare at it in his hands, or something?

Is there any indication of either of these claims being true, or is it simply a matter of a "morphing" of memories, 47 years after the fact, where they recall something like what they described, and remembered the handle(s) being broken/damaged, and they've simply combined the two into something that involved them? (As I've remarked elsewhere, Hill seems to have been the "Man Friday" after the assassination, he whom everyone turned to whenever they needed anything, at least according to his own recollection. Do we really think that Jackie called him back to her on the plane, worried about what would "happen to" him?)

Or is it a case of concocting an innocent-sounding explanation of how something happened, to be accepted by the great unwashed masses based on the sole basis of "they were there, they ought to know," thus putting to rest something thus far officially unexplained by creation of a new myth? If so, what could it be that they know that they don't want the public to know about how the handle(s) got broken such that they couldn't even get their stories straight?

The fact is - or seems to be - that their stories can't both be true.

What are the actual facts?

#39 Duke Lane

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 12:47 AM

Lifton documents from Bernice:

Attached File  BethesdaTimeLine (graphic).pdf   83.19KB   5 downloads

Attached File  BethesdaTimeLine.pdf   112.29KB   3 downloads

Attached File  Nt.pdf   65.84KB   4 downloads (Correspondence from Doug Horne)

#40 William Kelly

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 01:18 AM


By way of follow-up to my previous email, which was very hurriedly written) and the documents I sent by way of explanation. . . :

Here are three items which I reviewed earlier today, and which provide a complete discussion of the whole business of "3 entries of 2 caskets."

With regard to the multiple casket entries at Bethesda, the main thing that changed between the time BEST EVIDENCE was published in January, 1981 and the present occurred during the life of the ARRB (1995 - 9/30/98). One new witness was discovered—who actually wrote a report in November 1963—and another, who was known to exist, was interviewed for the first time. These two accounts corroborated what was already published in BEST EVIDENCE, as laid out in Chapters 25 – 28. Those two witnesses are:

A.) Roger Boyajian, the Marine Sergeant who was Chief of Security at the Morgue (and who wrote a detailed report on 11/26/63).

B.) Gawler's employee Von Hoesen, who is mentioned in the Sibert and O'Neill FBI report of the autopsy (but was never interviewed).

Boyajian's report, dated 11/26/63 (not 11/22/63, as I may have indicated--that was an error. Sorry.) states that the coffin containing the body arrived at 6:35 P.M.

Von Hoesen was quite explicit that the body arrived (inside the coffin) in a body bag.

The attached 3 items should be useful, if you wish to read further about this whole matter of multiple casket entries at Bethedsa. Again, please remember: it is all laid out, at great length, in BEST EVIDENCE, but perhaps these documents will make it even clearer:

(1) A Bethesda Time Line (graphic) --spelling out these 3 arrivals, and demonstrating how each is based on solid documentation (coming from these different, and very official, USG reports —the USMC (Boyajian, and 6:35 PM), the FBI (for 7:17 PM) and the Army (for 8PM, and the MDW casket team).

(2) A Bethesda time Line (verbal)--discussing each of thee 3 arrivals

(3) An email that Doug Horne sent a TV producer, who was contemplating doing a show on this matter. The email spells out succinctly and clearly the importance of the two witnesses mentioned above: Gawler's employee Von Hoesen, and USMC Sergeant Boyajian.

Hope this helps clarify the situation.

... I'm paying attention but I don't know what I can add to the proceedings.

Certainly the black hearse was from Gawlers, and whoever was in that hearse (Robinson?) should know where the metal shipping casket came from and how the body got into it.

If they released the body to the SS in Dallas under the condition that Gen. McHugh stay with the body, then McHugh should certainly know too.

Is he in any of the photos of the swearing in? Or did he stay with the body?

And if the body was offloaded the front door right side in the metal shipping casket while the 400 pound bronze casket was removed by the fork lift truck into the white ambulance, then the metal shipping casket with the body had to be helicoptered to Bethesda, and the casket moved from the helicopeter pad to the building via the black hearse. Is that right?

Then the guys in the black hearse must know where they got the casket.

That's where my thinking leads me.


Now, where was it that I read or heard recently that "Dallas officials" had "agreed" that it would be "legally sufficient" if Admiral Burkey, JFK's physician (more logical than a "lay" general cum military aide?) was to accompany the body from Texas? I'm thinking The Kennedy Detail on TV, maybe? I'm kind of losing track with so many different sources these past bunch of days starting with the final chapter of Dick Russell's On the Trail of the JFK Assassins....

Among those sources is the TIME magazine article linked earlier in this thread which, apparently paraphrasing from Best Evidence (the subject of the article, which I've read a couple of times, but it's been a while since the last time and I've slept since then) by conjecturing that the handles of the Dallas casket (which somewhere along the line - in BE? - became known as the "Navy" casket?) were broken during a "casket shuffle" at Bethesda. It seems that Paul O'Connor told Lifton that "there was talk at the hospital afterward of a casket being rushed through the halls," after which "several witnesses reported the bronze coffin appeared damaged, including a broken handle, when it was carried into the morgue by the honor guard" [TIME article, page 3].

What makes that interesting are two - count 'em: two - competing claims in the same program aired recently by The Discovery Channel, The Kennedy Detail. The first of those claims is Clint Hill's, who first made the statement that while "we" (was Hill, who was assigned to Jackie, actually part of the bevy of men hoisting the casket onto AF1? Wasn't there time for anyone to get a lift truck to get the casket aboard, like Andrews did to help take it off?) were trying to get the casket aboard, they "had to break off the handles" to get it through the door; the second is Paul Landis', who said only a short while later that the (a?) handle broke off in his hands as he was helping to carry it off of the plane.

How do handles that have already been "broken off" to get it into the door also "break off" later when it's being removed from the plane? I would think that both statements can be validated ... or not.

While I'm only aware of Cecil Stoughton's still images of men bringing the coffin onto the plane, and no movie imagery of it, I've never gotten the impression from those that there was any delay in getting the casket aboard such that any of the men removed the handles at the top of the gangway (this should have taken a little while anyway, wouldn't it have?), and I'm thinking that it would've taken superhuman strength to have simply "broken" them off quickly enough that there was no apparent delay in Stoughton's photos. After all, the handles must have been designed to withstand the downward pressure of the weight of the casket (400 lbs, was it?) plus the body of a full-grown human (150-200+ lbs; total 600+ lbs); is it reasonable to even conjecture that a man or men could simply rip them off in seconds by exerting outward pressure?

The removal of the casket from AF1 at Andrews AFB was filmed. Once again, I'm unfamiliar with it enough that I don't know either if Landis (or, for that matter, Hill) was among the pall bearers, or where he (they) were situated relative to the camera's perspective to the casket, but if in fact the handle "broke off" in Landis' hands, is it unreasonable to suspect that he would react in some manner, such as stumbling or picking the handle up to stare at it in his hands, or something?

Is there any indication of either of these claims being true, or is it simply a matter of a "morphing" of memories, 47 years after the fact, where they recall something like what they described, and remembered the handle(s) being broken/damaged, and they've simply combined the two into something that involved them? (As I've remarked elsewhere, Hill seems to have been the "Man Friday" after the assassination, he whom everyone turned to whenever they needed anything, at least according to his own recollection. Do we really think that Jackie called him back to her on the plane, worried about what would "happen to" him?)

Or is it a case of concocting an innocent-sounding explanation of how something happened, to be accepted by the great unwashed masses based on the sole basis of "they were there, they ought to know," thus putting to rest something thus far officially unexplained by creation of a new myth? If so, what could it be that they know that they don't want the public to know about how the handle(s) got broken such that they couldn't even get their stories straight?

The fact is - or seems to be - that their stories can't both be true.

What are the actual facts?



Indeed, who did Rose and Wade say had to stay with the body from Parkland to Bethesda, McHugh or Burkley, and did either of them actually do it?

And thanks to Duke for pointing out my mistake on the paraphrasing of what Hill says in the Fox broadcast when asked about nonsensical conspiracy theories, and responds by saying that JFK was hit in the back by the first shot, JBC hit by the second shot and JFK hit in the head by the third shot.

Duke picked up on my mistakingly saying LBJ instead of JBC, and I stand corrected, though I still want to see a complete transcript of the Fox interview with Hill or whatever that interview was where he repeats the shot sequence.

Do I have to go back and transcribe it myself, or will the multi-billion dollar network actually make transcripts of their interviews available on line?

And while we're correcting mistakes, who took those photos attributd to Stoughton of the AF1 at Andrews, when Stoughton was still back in Dallas?

If Stoughton couldn't have taken it because he was in a different state, who took those photos attributed to him of AF1 at Andrews?

BK

Edited by William Kelly, 08 December 2010 - 01:27 AM.


#41 David Lifton

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 02:27 AM

As spelled out in BEST EVIDENCE—documentary evidence exists which indicates that, with regard to the JFK autopsy, there were 3 entries of 2 caskets, at Bethesda Naval Hospital.

Those three entry times–each documented in separate (and most official) government reports, from three distinctly different government sources--are: 6:35 PM, 7:17 PM, and 8 PM EST, and can be synopsized as follows:

Entry #1: 6:35 PM - - the arrival of President Kennedy’s body in a shipping casket
Entry #2: 7:17 PM -- the arrival of the Dallas casket (empty, at this point)
Entry #3: 8:00 PM -- the 2nd entry of the same Dallas casket (now containing the body)

In other words, and now focusing on the rear entrance at the back of Bethesda Naval Hospital, the evidence indicates the following sequence of events:

(1) the President’s body first arrived (at 6:35 PM) in a shipping casket;

(2) the Dallas casket (at that point, empty) then arrived (at 7:17 PM); then (subsequent to 7:17 PM) the body was returned to the Dallas casket which was then brought outside Bethesda, placed in a Navy ambulance; and then (finally). . .

(3) at 8 PM, the Dallas casket (now containing the body) was brought back inside the hospital, under full escort of the MDW casket team.

To state the matter slightly differently: the body first arrived at 6:35 PM in a shipping casket; and then the Dallas casket entered twice: once, at 7:17 PM, when it was empty; and then a second time at 8 PM, when the President’s body—having arrived earlier in the morgue—was then returned to the casket in which it had begun its journey from Dallas some six hours earlier. Then, that casket—now containing the body—was brought back inside at 8 PM, under full escort, for the “official entry.”

These tactics were apparently designed to establish (for the benefit of those who did not know about the intercept) the superficial appearance of “continuity,” and to hide the fact that the President’s body had ever been out of the Dallas casket, prior to its arrival at the morgue at Bethesda Naval Hospital, where the autopsy was to be performed. By employing these tactics, and then (in addition), putting everyone who witnessed the first entry under a very official “order not to talk” (issued verbally that night, to almost all of those present, including the autopsy doctors), and then restating that order, in writing, on 11/26/63, the fact that a covert interception had occurred earlier in the day (as evidenced by these multiple casket arrivals), was concealed. Also concealed was the fact that the Dallas casket –when it first arrived at Bethesda—was empty. All of this was concealed from the American public and the separate pieces of this puzzle were unearthed, analyzed, and properly assembled and published in BEST EVIDENCE in January, 1981. For the first time, the basic facts about what happened on the night of November 22, 1963, at Bethesda Naval Hospital, was made public.

A more detailed discussion of each of the 3 entries now follows.

* * *

Entry #1--at 6:35 PM EST--was the arrival of the shipping casket.

This entry is documented in the report of USMC Sgt. Roger Boyajian, dated 11/26/63. Boyajian was head of the security detail at the morgue. This entry was witnessed by Dennis David (See B.E., Chapter 25)--who was outside the room--and by medical technician Paul O'Connor, who was inside the room (See B.E., Chapter 26).

Paul O'Connor worked at a funeral home, as a teenager. He was also a med tech in Vietnam.

He knows what a shipping casket is; and he knows what a body bag is.
Anyone wishing to evaluate his credibility can observe his demeanor as he recounts his experience, in the BEST EVIDENCE RESEARCH VIDEO.

The filmed interview was done in October, 1980, at his home in Gainesville, Florida, just two months prior to the release of BEST EVIDENCE. Paul opened the shipping casket; and said that the President's body was "naked, except for a sheet, a bloody sheet, wrapped around the head."

Dennis David, who never entered the morgue, witnessed the arrival of that casket, in a black hearse, accompanied by some men in morgue smocks.

Almost certainly: that was a Gawler's hearse (but that cannot be proven with certainty).

Some 20 minutes later, Dennis David was at the front of Bethesda, and standing in the rotunda, when he saw the cavalcade from Andrews Air Force Base arrive at Bethesda--i.e., the Navy ambulance containing Jacqueline Kennedy, Robert Kennedy, and the Dallas casket. According to press reports, the Navy ambulance rolled to a stop at 6:55 PM, EST. And that brings us to "Entry #2".


Entry #2: The first entry of the Dallas Casket (which was empty at the time).

This entry was documented by the two FBI agents, when questioned by Warren Commission attorney Arlen Specter, in March, 1964. By combining what they told Specter, with other information (mostly, from public sources), here’s what happened. The Kennedy party left the Navy ambulance. There was, approximately, a 12 minute "pause". Then, an Admiral (Adm. Calvin Galloway) got into the ambulance, and raced off. The tri-service casket team tried to follow, but evasive action was taken, and they "lost" the ambulance. See my Chapter 16 (“The Decoy Ambulance”). I interviewed the men from the casket team in 1967 and 1968. They related how they "lost" the ambulance, and how it was then explained to them (by Navy officials) that they had followed the "wrong" ambulance, and that the Navy was using a "decoy."

Meanwhile, however, the FBI agents did NOT "lose" sight of the ambulance. And so that brings us to the back of Bethesda Naval Hospital and what I am calling “Entry #2.”

This entry occurred at 7:17 PM, and is established (as noted above) by the FBI Agents Sibert and O'Neill, when interviewed by the Warren Commission. That time is also corroborated by US Army Reports which I obtained under the FOIA.

Again, see Chapter 25 of Best Evidence (and also Chapter 28) for further information on this 7:17 entry.

Also note: when the two FBI agents got inside the hospital, they were, for a brief while, not permitted to enter the autopsy room. This was noted in their own report (See Chapter 28 of Best Evidence) and was almost certainly done to prevent them from seeing that the body was already there.

Now, focusing on the statement that the casket—at the time of the 7:17 entry—was empty: The Dallas casket had arrived at the front of the hospital at 6:53 or 6:55 PM (the former time, according to the Secret Service; the latter, according to press reports).

Since the body had ALREADY arrived (See “Entry #1” above), in the shipping casket, the Dallas casket which arrived at Bethesda must have been empty. In other words, Entry #2 --the first entry of the Dallas casket—pertains to an empty casket.

The matter of “multiple caskets” was recognized at the time. Dennis David, for example, was aware of multiple casket entries, was told that all this was the result of "security measures"--i.e., that the Navy was using a "decoy” to prevent anyone from “hijacking the body.” (See Chapter 25, BEST EVIDENCE).

Entry #3: The second entry of the Dallas casket (Time: this occurred at 8PM.)

At that time, the Dallas casket was (again) escorted inside, this time accompanied by USAF Gen. Godfrey McHugh, and the tri-service casket team (officially known as the “MDW” casket team, MDW being the abbreviation for “Military District of Washington”).

The time of entry is firmly established by their written report—it was 8 PM.

Furthermore, the Dallas casket did contain the President's body at this time. (We know that because members of the MDW team witnessed a casket opening).

Also: The wrappings were different between the time Paul O'Connor first saw the body ("completely naked except for a sheet, a bloody sheet, around the head") and the time the FBI saw the body. The two FBI agents (i.e., Sibert and O’Neill) wrote that the bod was "completely covered" with a sheet, and that there was a "second. . blood soaked wrapping" on the head." And that's also when they noted that, with the removal of the wrapping, it was "apparent" that there had been "surgery of the head area, namely, in the top of the skull."

To recap: it would appear that the Dallas casket entered the morgue area twice--the first time (at 7:17) when it had arrived from Andrews Air Force Base, and was empty; the second time, when it was brought inside at 8PM, by which time the body had been put back inside the Dallas casket*; and, according to the FBI, was completely covered with a sheet, and had a second, "blood soaked" wrapping on the head.

*Note: there is no eyewitness to the return of the body to the Dallas casket, and it being brought back outside the hospital, so that it could then be carried back inside, at 8P.M. We simply infer that this must have happened, because of the known, and well documented, sequence of arrivals; and, further, the evidence (chiefly from the FBI report) that there was a brief period when the agents were not allowed to entry the autopsy area, and put in a separate room—supposedly, for the taking of X-rays. This “intermission” is the subject of Chapter 28, of BEST EVIDENCE (“The Clandestine Intermission Hypothesis”).

ABOUT SOME OF THE POSTS I HAVE BEEN READING ON THIS THREAD:

Any notion that the shipping casket has anything whatsoever to do with the delivery of the embalmed body, to the funeral home, hours later, is without foundation, and is, frankly, absurd. The President's body was embalmed, after 1 or 2 AM in the morning. It was then placed in the expensive mahogany casket that was purchased, by the Kennedy family, at Gawlers. That casket, with the President's embalmed body inside, was then placed in a Navy ambulance, and driven from Bethesdsa Naval Hospital to the White House. All that occurred after 4 AM in the morning.

So anyone coming to this case, decades later, and attempting to introduce the notion that the embalmed body went from Bethesda back to Gawlers, in a shipping casket, is only confusing matters. No "shipping casket" was seen or utilized later in the evening. And the President's body never went back to any funeral home--it went directly from Bethesda Naval Hospital to the White House.

The shipping casket appears in the narrative at only one point in time: it is the container in which President Kennedy's body first arrived at Bethesda at 6:35 PM.

Another point: If President Kennedy's body arrived at Bethesda at 6:35 PM in a shipping casket—and that time comes from the official report of Sgt Roger Boyajian, who ran the USMC security detail—then that means that the casket aboard Air Force One (at the time it landed at Andrews Air Force Based, at 6 PM EST) was empty.

And if that is so—i.e., if the Dallas casket was empty at the time of the 6 PM off-load at Andrews AFB—then the Dallas casket must have been empty upon take-off from Dallas at 2:47 PM.

This is all spelled out, a step at a time, in BEST EVIDENCE, in chapters 25-28.

•Chapter 25 is the account of Dennis David, just as I discovered it in July, 1979.
•Chapter 26 is the account of Paul O'Connor, just as I discovered it in August, 1979.

•Chapter 27 contains other important data (e.g., the 11/26/63 "order not to talk")

•Chapter 28 describes, in detail, what happened at Bethesda, inside the hospital, and how the FBI, arriving with the Dallas casket at 7:17 PM, were kept out of the room for a short while, to conceal the fact that the President's body was already there, i.e., already inside.

FYI: Commander Humes (apparently) knew all about this rigmarole. Tucked into his sworn WC testimony can be found a most interesting statement, which offered some legal protection should there be any future inquiry, by explicitly stating that he did not concern himself with the "security measures" at the time. When the ARRB (via Doug Horne, preparing questions, and Jeremy Gunn, asking them) asked Humes when he FIRST saw the body, Humes admitted that he "first saw" the body at 6:45 PM, a good 47 minutes before the (7:35pm) time he gave in his WC testimony.

Finally, I am surprised to see anyone claiming to be a serious student of this matter attempting to explain these serious differences in time of arrival by suggesting that perhaps the military and government people on the east coast were somehow confused by the fact that Dallas, where the assassination occurred, was on Central Standard Time, whereas Bethesda was on Eastern Standard Time. (Let me suggest that even Gerald Posner would never advance such a foolish idea).

When my book was first published, Time Magazine gave it full coverage--in a 2 page spread--not as a book review, but as a news story. (I have provided a pdf of that story to Bernice, and she has posted it). Also, at the time, two other sailors, on duty that night at Bethesda, immediately came forward with corroborating accounts, about the multiple casket arrivals. (One was named Donald Rebentisch; and I interviewed him in connection with Brian McKenna's excellent documentary, aired on Canadian TV, titled "The Empty Casket").

But lets get to the bottom line: In the final analysis, I think the basic problem with all this is not logical, but psychological. People do not want to believe that high officials of their government were involved in perpetrating a deception of this magnitude.

When BEST EVIDENCE was published, my publisher (Macmillan) ran large ads in the New York Time showing the picture of the casket being offloaded at Andrews Air Force Base--with the caption: "The casket was empty."

So that is the bottom line: the casket was empty, but actually, there is more.

THE POLITICAL IMPLICATIONS

For the casket to be empty at Andrews Air Force Base (at the 6 PM offload) means that within minutes of the Dallas onload (2:18 PM, CST), the body must have been removed from the casket, and taken off the aircraft--yes, at Love Field, in Dallas.

Today, I know much more about what went on at the back of the plane, and how this happened, and will have more to say about all this in my next work, FINAL CHARADE. But let me assure anyone reading this that such an event did indeed happen. Yes, the body of President Kennedy was in fact removed from the Dallas casket within minutes of its onload at Air Force One. What happened next is another aspect of the story, and beyond the scope of this Internet post.

But that is what the empty casket—at the "east coast" end of the line (i.e., at Andrews Air Force Base)—is all about.

Ultimately, what this means is that within minutes of the arrival of JFK's body at Love Field (2:14 CST) and its onload onto Air Force One (2:18 CST), the focus was on getting JFK’s body OUT of the coffin, the purpose apparently being its alteration prior to the east coast autopsy at Bethesda Naval Hospital (and that, of course, is the larger thesis of BEST EVIDENCE).

The notion that the target of this whole operation--i.e., JFK's murder--was not just President Kennedy himself (i.e., JFK, viewed as a mortal, who was to be killed)--but ALSO his BODY, which (after his death) was to be altered to support a false story of how he died (and to create the false appearance that Oswald was the assassin) is the key to this murder case.

That notion is politically incorrect, but it happens to be the truth: indeed, it represents the ultimate "inconvenient truth" of the mid-20th century—specifically, that both President Kennedy was targeted (for death) and his body was targeted (for alteration), in what was tantamount to twin operations designed not just to remove the President from office but also to create a false history of how he died.

If this case were fictionalized, and appeared on an episode of LAW AND ORDER, or CSI, there would be no disputing the fact that the body of the victim, placed on an airplane in City A, was removed from the coffin, prior to takeoff, and that is why the coffin was empty by the time the plane landed in City B.

But Americans don't want to hear that, about President Kennedy, or his assassination.

But the day will come when that is in fact the accepted truth in this case.

As Josephine Tey wrote: Truth is the daughter of time.

DSL
12/7/10; 5:30 PM PST
Re-edited, 12/11/10; 12:05 AM PST
Los Angeles, CA

Edited by David Lifton, 11 December 2010 - 09:01 AM.


#42 Greg Burnham

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 03:41 AM

David,

Excellent post. I offer an additional comment to your statement; a statement with which I happen to agree, namely--you said:

"The notion that the target of this whole operation --i.e., JFK's murder--was not just President Kennedy himself--i.e., JFK viewed as a mortal, who had to be killed--but ALSO his BODY, which had to be altered to support a false story of how he died (and create the false appearance that Oswald was the assassin) is the key to this murder case."

While I don't disagree with you, I see it from a different perspective. The "target" was NOT even JFK, per se. It was the JFK Administration, JFK's policies, and JFK's inability to be "bought" and therefore his autonomy. In my view, the target was the Executive Branch of the US Government. By successfully removing JFK without being held accountable, the Power Elite, behind the Guns of Dallas, sent a very clear message to all future POTUS' who would one day become aware of their own vulnerability. The "balance of power" established in the US Constitution by our Founding Fathers, has been compromised ever since. So, the "target" was something else, IMO. However, the "targeted evidence" extended far beyond the man.

For example, as I covered in Dallas last week at COPA, not only was the physical "body" evidence altered, so was the RECORD of Kennedy's intentions in Vietnam. Those records are demonstrably either self impeaching, altered, or obfuscated--seemingly with intent to create a Byzantine Accounting System--rendering them fraudulent, particularly from a historical perspective.

#43 Bernice Moore

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 03:44 AM

:D David, thankyou, again for your great insight and sharing of your knowledge, good to see you here, for bill kelly i believe, a photo of the coffin beng loaded at love, you can see the handles they speak of, i will look into stoughton again, it did not come up, at first try, many thanks all, this has been a very informative joint thread, :D b..

Edited by Bernice Moore, 08 December 2010 - 03:45 AM.


#44 Bernice Moore

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 03:49 AM

Bill the large copy taken at love i will remove the above smaller photo...ta click on the photo to get full view..b

Edited by Bernice Moore, 08 December 2010 - 03:51 AM.


#45 Bernice Moore

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 05:20 AM

Bill re Stoughton, the schematic information from the motorcade...

These vehicles were provided by Earl Hayes Chevrolet , were
positioned
6th, 7th,8th....behind the presidential Lincoln.

The listing of the seating is below..

Camera Car # 1, 1964 Chevrolet Impala ,Yellow 2 door convertible .
License # PI 9059. 6 men seated.

1.Front seat, Driver, John Hoefen (NBC sound technician) David Wiegman Jr.
...(NBC cameraman),

1.Back seat, Thomas J.Craven Jr (CBS cameraman), Cleve Ryan (Pool
...Electrician ) Thomas M.Aikins ( White House cameraman ).

************

Camera Car # 2, 1964 Chevrolet Implala ,Silver 2 door convertible.
License # PI 7856. 6 men seated.

2. Front seat, Driver, Donald C."Clint" Grant ( Dallas Morning News
...photographer, Frank Cancellare (UPI photographer) .

2.Back seat, Cecil Stoughton (White House photographer) Arthur Rickerby
...(Life photographer) Henry D.Burroughs (AP photographer).

************

Camera Car # 3, 1964 Chevrolet Impala ,Gray 2 door convertible.
License #...856. 6 men.

3. Front seat, Driver, James R. Underwood (KRLD cameraman)
....Thomas C.Dillard (Dallas Morning News photographer)

3. Back seat, Jimmy Darnell (WBAP cameraman) Malcolm O.Couch
...(WFAA cameraman) Robert H.Jackson ( Dallas Times Herald
....photographer)..

************

B..



""from Seth Kantor's notes----"Will Fritz's men called off nite before by SS.
Had planned to ride closed car w/ machine guns in car behind Pres."
as in Chicago, IL, on 3/23/63 & New York on 11/15/63)""



photo below by robin...thanks...b




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