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THE KENNEDY CASKET CONSPIRACY


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#46 Duke Lane

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 07:29 AM

I simply cannot wait until I get older and my memory comes back to me!!

Somewhere, in some thread recently, someone questioned the validity of Dave Powers' claim of never having left the casket while aboard AF1. In response, a Stoughton photo of LBJ's swearing-in was posted with the notation that "Gary Mack says the guy at the far right is Dave Powers ...." The link to the thumbnail gives a listing of those photograhed, but stops short of this individual, see Stoughton 1A-7-WH63 here (with links to large copies; in the public domain). This is shortly before the actual swearing in, and is the only one this man is seen in.

Stoughton also took a photo of Dave Powers before the parade began. Are the two men the same?

Posted Image
Ken O'Donnell, General Clifton and Admiral Burkley are each seen in several of these photos as well; Jackie is in most if not all of them.

So if that's Dave Powers in the front cabin, as it sure looks to me that it was, who was with the coffin?

#47 J. William King

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 06:45 PM

*** snip ***

ABOUT SOME OF THE POSTS I HAVE BEEN READING ON THIS THREAD:

Any notion that the shipping casket has anything whatsoever to do with the delivery of the embalmed body, to the funeral home, hours later, is without foundation, and is, frankly, absurd. The President's body was embalmed, after 1 or 2 AM in the morning. It was then placed in the expensive mahogany casket that was purchased, by the Kennedy family, at Gawlers. That casket, with the President's embalmed body inside, was then placed in a Navy ambulance, and driven from Bethesdsa Naval Hospital to the White House. All that occurred after 4 AM in the morning.

So anyone coming to this case, decades later, and attempting to introduce the notion that the embalmed body went from Bethesda back to Gawlers, in a shipping casket, is only confusing matters. No "shipping casket" was seen or utilized later in the evening. And the President's body never went back to any funeral home--it went directly from Bethesda Naval Hospital to the White House.

*** snip ***


David,

Thank you for taking the time to respond, however if you're referencing my post, I think you read it wrong.

I never said that the body was taken back to Grawlers. All I said was that the first call sheet from Grawlers mentions that they (the Grawler's team) removed the body from a shipping casket. They didn't specify when. I'm going on the assumption that the funeral home people didn't see or handle the body until after the autopsy was done. What I'm suggesting is that an empty shipping casket was brought to Bethesda (6:35pm, by a Grawler's hearse) on the assumption the body was going to be brought back to the funeral home for preparation, as would normally be the case. After the autopsy, the body was placed into the shipping casket by the medical team for transport. At some point after this, it was decided to do the preparation at Bethesda instead of at Grawlers, and the funeral home team was then brought in and removed the body from the shipping casket, prepared the body, and placed it into the mahogany casket which arrived in the early morning hours. The body may have been in the shipping casket for a few minutes or an hour, tops, and didn't go anywhere.

I'm not saying that there wasn't body alteration. The Navy hearse arrived at 7:17, yet wasn't unloaded until 8pm, which would have given someone plenty of time to do the deed. It also makes more sense, to me anyway, to do that at a hospital instead of on an airplane.

As I said, it's just a theory.

Edited by J. William King, 15 December 2010 - 07:10 PM.


#48 Bernice Moore

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 04:23 AM


*** snip ***

ABOUT SOME OF THE POSTS I HAVE BEEN READING ON THIS THREAD:

Any notion that the shipping casket has anything whatsoever to do with the delivery of the embalmed body, to the funeral home, hours later, is without foundation, and is, frankly, absurd. The President's body was embalmed, after 1 or 2 AM in the morning. It was then placed in the expensive mahogany casket that was purchased, by the Kennedy family, at Gawlers. That casket, with the President's embalmed body inside, was then placed in a Navy ambulance, and driven from Bethesdsa Naval Hospital to the White House. All that occurred after 4 AM in the morning.

So anyone coming to this case, decades later, and attempting to introduce the notion that the embalmed body went from Bethesda back to Gawlers, in a shipping casket, is only confusing matters. No "shipping casket" was seen or utilized later in the evening. And the President's body never went back to any funeral home--it went directly from Bethesda Naval Hospital to the White House.

*** snip ***


David,

Thank you for taking the time to respond, however if you're referencing my post, I think you read it wrong.

I never said that the body was taken back to Grawlers. All I said was that the first call sheet from Grawlers mentions that they (the Grawler's team) removed the body from a shipping casket. They didn't specify when. I'm going on the assumption that the funeral home people didn't see or handle the body until after the autopsy was done. What I'm suggesting is that an empty shipping casket was brought to Bethesda (6:35pm, by a Grawler's hearse) on the assumption the body was going to be brought back to the funeral home for preparation, as would normally be the case. After the autopsy, the body was placed into the shipping casket by the medical team for transport. At some point after this, it was decided to do the preparation at Bethesda instead of at Grawlers, and the funeral home team was then brought in and removed the body from the shipping casket, prepared the body, and placed it into the mahogany casket which arrived in the early morning hours. The body may have been in the shipping casket for a few minutes or an hour, tops, and didn't go anywhere.

I'm not saying that there wasn't body alteration. The Navy hearse arrived at 7:17, yet wasn't unloaded until 8pm, which would have given someone plenty of time to do the deed. It also makes more sense, to me anyway, to do that at a hospital instead of on an airplane.

As I said, it's just a theory.



thank you william for your clarification here fwtaw for whomevers, are two photos taken of the ambulance arriving at the w/h with the casket the next morning....b

#49 David Lifton

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 08:31 PM

Re your statement: “All I said was that the first call sheet from Gawlers mentions that they (the Gawler's team) removed the body from a shipping casket. They didn't specify when. I'm going on the assumption that the funeral home people didn't see or handle the body until after the autopsy was done.”

First of all, your basic assumption is incorrect. The Sibert and O’Neill FBI report makes clear that several the Gawlers people were inside the morgue, and sitting in the bleachers, during—I repeat “during”—the autopsy.

Additionally: You may not have specified “when” but the document itself should eliminate any ambiguity on that subject. The “first call sheet” provides the essential context here. That document is filled out when the “first call” is received by Gawlers funeral home. So what that sheet records is the information from the “first call” to the funeral home.

When it states “metal shipping casket”, what the document is recording is what they (Gawlers) were told on the phone, or what their employees personally witnessed at the time of that “first call.”

The relevant question is: When was that time? Answer: 6:35 PM EST, according to the Boyajian report.

The black hearse that arrived at the back of Bethesda and which delivered the body in a shipping casket (according to Dennis David, who was a witness to that unloading, and Paul O’Connor, who was inside the morgue, and helped open the casket) was almost certainly from Gawlers. That can’t be proven, because Hagan wouldn’t admit to it. But your assumption that information recorded on that “first call” sheet applies to events six hours later, in the A.M., and after the autopsy was completed, is entirely unwarranted.

What you have done is taken the term “shipping casket” and attempted to insert it in the narrative some four to six hours later.

No one inside the morgue has ever stated—nor is there any justification for believing—that a shipping casket was inside the morgue, or brought to the morgue, after the initial delivery of the body at 6:35 EST (per the Boyajian report). And specifically, there is no reason to believe that the President’s body was placed into a shipping casket after midnight on November 22, 1963, and after the autopsy was completed.

DSL
Los Angeles, CA
12/16/10; 11:30 AM PST

#50 J. William King

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Posted 18 December 2010 - 11:02 PM

Re your statement: “All I said was that the first call sheet from Gawlers mentions that they (the Gawler's team) removed the body from a shipping casket. They didn't specify when. I'm going on the assumption that the funeral home people didn't see or handle the body until after the autopsy was done.”

First of all, your basic assumption is incorrect. The Sibert and O’Neill FBI report makes clear that several the Gawlers people were inside the morgue, and sitting in the bleachers, during—I repeat “during”—the autopsy.

Additionally: You may not have specified “when” but the document itself should eliminate any ambiguity on that subject. The “first call sheet” provides the essential context here. That document is filled out when the “first call” is received by Gawlers funeral home. So what that sheet records is the information from the “first call” to the funeral home.

When it states “metal shipping casket”, what the document is recording is what they (Gawlers) were told on the phone, or what their employees personally witnessed at the time of that “first call.”

The relevant question is: When was that time? Answer: 6:35 PM EST, according to the Boyajian report.

The black hearse that arrived at the back of Bethesda and which delivered the body in a shipping casket (according to Dennis David, who was a witness to that unloading, and Paul O’Connor, who was inside the morgue, and helped open the casket) was almost certainly from Gawlers. That can’t be proven, because Hagan wouldn’t admit to it. But your assumption that information recorded on that “first call” sheet applies to events six hours later, in the A.M., and after the autopsy was completed, is entirely unwarranted.

What you have done is taken the term “shipping casket” and attempted to insert it in the narrative some four to six hours later.

No one inside the morgue has ever stated—nor is there any justification for believing—that a shipping casket was inside the morgue, or brought to the morgue, after the initial delivery of the body at 6:35 EST (per the Boyajian report). And specifically, there is no reason to believe that the President’s body was placed into a shipping casket after midnight on November 22, 1963, and after the autopsy was completed.

DSL
Los Angeles, CA
12/16/10; 11:30 AM PST


Thank you for the reply, David.

The first call sheet also gives dates of 11/23/63, and refers to the burial vault being delivered to Arlington. There is also no mention of transporting the body from anywhere to Bethesda as I would expect to find on a first call sheet. My assumption is that the first call sheet was filled out at a later date, and not "as it happened". On that basis, there is still much ambiguity as to who and when the body was removed from the shipping casket, and who delivered the body to Bethesda and when it was delviered.

JW

Edited by J. William King, 18 December 2010 - 11:42 PM.


#51 David Lifton

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 10:34 AM


Re your statement: “All I said was that the first call sheet from Gawlers mentions that they (the Gawler's team) removed the body from a shipping casket. They didn't specify when. I'm going on the assumption that the funeral home people didn't see or handle the body until after the autopsy was done.”

First of all, your basic assumption is incorrect. The Sibert and O’Neill FBI report makes clear that several the Gawlers people were inside the morgue, and sitting in the bleachers, during—I repeat “during”—the autopsy.

Additionally: You may not have specified “when” but the document itself should eliminate any ambiguity on that subject. The “first call sheet” provides the essential context here. That document is filled out when the “first call” is received by Gawlers funeral home. So what that sheet records is the information from the “first call” to the funeral home.

When it states “metal shipping casket”, what the document is recording is what they (Gawlers) were told on the phone, or what their employees personally witnessed at the time of that “first call.”

The relevant question is: When was that time? Answer: 6:35 PM EST, according to the Boyajian report.

The black hearse that arrived at the back of Bethesda and which delivered the body in a shipping casket (according to Dennis David, who was a witness to that unloading, and Paul O’Connor, who was inside the morgue, and helped open the casket) was almost certainly from Gawlers. That can’t be proven, because Hagan wouldn’t admit to it. But your assumption that information recorded on that “first call” sheet applies to events six hours later, in the A.M., and after the autopsy was completed, is entirely unwarranted.

What you have done is taken the term “shipping casket” and attempted to insert it in the narrative some four to six hours later.

No one inside the morgue has ever stated—nor is there any justification for believing—that a shipping casket was inside the morgue, or brought to the morgue, after the initial delivery of the body at 6:35 EST (per the Boyajian report). And specifically, there is no reason to believe that the President’s body was placed into a shipping casket after midnight on November 22, 1963, and after the autopsy was completed.

DSL
Los Angeles, CA
12/16/10; 11:30 AM PST


Thank you for the reply, David.

The first call sheet also gives dates of 11/23/63, and refers to the burial vault being delivered to Arlington. There is also no mention of transporting the body from anywhere to Bethesda as I would expect to find on a first call sheet. My assumption is that the first call sheet was filled out at a later date, and not "as it happened". On that basis, there is still much ambiguity as to who and when the body was removed from the shipping casket, and who delivered the body to Bethesda and when it was delviered.

JW


REPLY BY DSL:

The "burial vault" being delivered to Arlington is an obvious reference to the mahogany coffin purchased by the Kennedy family after midnight at Gawlers. This is thoroughly described in Manchester's Death of a President.

Your "assumption" that the first call sheet "was filled out at a later date, and not 'as it happened'" is just that--your assumption. There is no good reason to believe that to be the case, and, consequently, your assertion (based on that "assumption") that "there is still much ambiguity as to who and when the body was removed from the shpping casket" is something that emanates from your unwarranted assumption, and not from the record, as it currently exists.

Yes, it is true that There is . . no mention (in the Gawlers documents) of transporting the body from anywhere TO Bethesda" and Doug Horne worked hard trying to pin that down. As I recall, the Gawler's people were evasive.

What happened was that it was I who supplied the "first call sheet" to Doug Horne at the ARRB, and when Doug first contacted Hagan, he tried to claim to know nothing about any such document, not realizing I had possession of a copy, and had already supplied it to the ARRB. Then came a phone call from Hagan to Doug Horne "correcting" his previous statements, etc. To correctly narrate this sequence, one would need all the outside contact reports and interviews.

But no: Gawler's never admitted--outright--that it was their hearse that picked up the body, and --just as important--WHERE that event occurred. All we know (from the first call sheet) is that it was (apparently) in a "metal shipping casket", which--of course--is exactly what was witnessed by Dennis David, the Besthedsa Officer of the Day; Paul O'Connor, who was inside the room, and--I might add--Lt. Richard Lipsey, who was the aide to General Whele, who was the Commanding Officer of the Military District of Washington. FYI: Lipsey was at the back of Bethesda when the black hearse carrying the casket first arrived (6:35 PM, per the Boyajian report).

Again, may I point out: you are the one who is introducing needless ambiguity into this situation.


The senior people at Gawlers know very well where they picked up the body (in a "metal shipping casket", as their first call sheet states). Its just they they didn't want to surrender that information to the ARRB. Furthermore, had I not supplied the "first call sheet" (which I had obtained, from another source) to the ARRB, Gawlers might very well have gotten away with the notion that no such document existed in their files.

Fortunately, I had the document, supplied it Doug Horne, and so Gawlers had to admit what it was, and that it originated from their own files.

Again, in writing this extemporaneously, I defer to documentary record created by Doug Horne when this "Gawlers investigaiton" actually took place at the time of the ARRB.

DSL
Los Angeles, CA
12/22/10 1:30 AM PSt

#52 Tony Frank

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 10:59 PM

Attached File  casket.jpg   79.22KB   6 downloads

Attached File  Casket Order-G.png   11.16KB   9 downloads

I see a very simple explanation. The "SOLID BRONZE" casket in which the body was "shipped" was the "metal shipping casket" from which it was removed.

When someone called Gawler's and said they needed a new casket for the President at BNH, Gawler's asked about the kind of casket in which the body had been shipped, and they were told it was a metal casket. Hence, under "Casket Order" the remarks say "body removed from metal shipping casket at USN at Beth."

One of the Gawler's employees even told the ARRB as much when they asked him about the meaning of the words "shipping casket."

Attached File  Gawlers on Casket.jpg   40.27KB   9 downloads

Edited by Tony Frank, 23 December 2010 - 12:58 AM.


#53 Bernice Moore

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 07:29 AM

in this thread someone asked if Stoughton was in Dallas, here is a photo ,he took of the Newmans,craven and another photog. he was in Dallas and in Dealey...b

Edited by Bernice Moore, 23 December 2010 - 07:41 AM.


#54 Todd W. Vaughan

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 04:05 PM

in this thread someone asked if Stoughton was in Dallas, here is a photo ,he took of the Newmans,craven and another photog. he was in Dallas and in Dealey...b



Stoughton was in the motorcade in Camera Car 2.

In that photo left to right are the Newmans, CBS cameraman Tom Craven, WH cameraman Tom Atkins, and witness Cheryl McKinnon.

Stoughton took photos at Love Field on JFK's arrival, in the motorcade, at Parkland, at Love Field of the arrival of the casket, and on Air Force 1 of the swearing in.

#55 Bernice Moore

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 04:34 PM

thanks todd, i believe most of that info has been posted previously but whomever was still doubting, perhaps a photo will convince, worth 10 thou words and so on...take care have a safe happy christmas and a very good new year...best b

#56 Kathleen Collins

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Posted 24 December 2010 - 03:02 AM


I don't know enough about the casket incidents to give an informed opinion, but I would like to offer up some points of discussion.

Is it possible that some of the time discrepancies may have originated from the times coming from the Dallas teams, who's watches may have still been on central time? Considering what was going on, I'm guessing that resetting their watches to eastern time may have been a low priority and something that some of the team may have forgotten to do.

Also, is it possible that some of the casket deliveries may have been empty caskets being brought in?

The paper from the funeral home mentions that the body was removed (for embalming) from a shipping casket. Is it possible that Kennedy's body may have been placed into a shipping casket temporarily after the autopsy and before the funeral home took charge of it?

JWK


quote''The paper from the funeral home mentions that the body was removed (for embalming) from a shipping casket. Is it possible that Kennedy's body may have been placed into a shipping casket temporarily after the autopsy and before the funeral home took charge of it? ''

JWK
Good question William, i wondered myself, but on checking i could not find where such was ever mentioned, amongst the information given by any of the witnesses. i would not have been surprised if they would have at parkland, because the body was still draining, but no, the statements there all refer to the coffin. if grey cells are working i believe he was interviewed, and may have been asked to decribe such, i am thinking of David LIFTON'S VIDEO INTERVIEWS...In Best Evidence.. if i recall correctly he asked each to describe such that they saw him in or placed in or taken out of, i think they are on the utube...thanks take care..b


The late Rich DellaRosa was working on this subject of the caskets. In my opinion, you wouldn't put an autopsied man in a brand new, expensive coffin. He still has to be embalmed. Then you put him in the new coffin for the family.

Kathy C




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