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Oswald and Bus 1213


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#466 Guest_Lee Farley_*

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 10:41 AM

Raymond

I trust Whaleys testimony, but I can't see, how it exonerates Oswald---?????

enlightenment - please

KK

You're asking Raymond Carroll for enlightenment? You'll be in for a long wait. The guy gets confused due to the fact that he doesn't even bother reading the evidence that is supplied with the conclusions contained in other members posts. He simply takes snippets of info and replies with generic knee jerk nonsense.The day he provides any evidence for his statements, and musters enough energy to counter the evidence presented, will be a strange day at the Education Forum.

#467 Guest_Lee Farley_*

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 11:28 AM

Lee, I believe you may be referring to a recent thread by Karl concerning the 4 Station Wagons. In it, Ian and Malcolm Ward discuss the Tidy Laundromat and the testimony of the Penningtons. They are the ones who should properly receive your acknowledgment.

http://educationforu...on

It is indeed a fascinating lead and ties in well with Roger Craig seeing LHO getting into a Rambler Station Wagon in front of the TSBD around 12:40 - 12:45. Since the Pennington's could only time-stamp the incident as being between 12 and 1 pm, it allows for a scenario where Oswald goes directly to the Tidy-Mat to make his call. There is the issue of the dark-skinned driver of the vehicle that Craig observed. Since the Pennington's say the vehicle was left by the laundromat, there may have been a pit stop to drop him off, leaving Oswald as the sole occupant. But this raises the question of why leave the car and proceed on foot?

My apologies to Ian and Malcolm. I genuinly thought it was you who had brought up the Tidy Lady sighting, Richard. Sorry for not double-checking.It's still an interesting aspect of the whole assassintion story and merges quite nicely into the Craig, Forrest, and Robinson observations as well as those of Richard Carr. The Dealey Plaza sightings also merge into the Revill list that has Oswald's name at the top with an incorrect address and ties nicely into the witnesses who saw the TSBD sealed off within minutes of the assassination.The whole Oswald leaving by car scenario has much supporting it and the bus and taxi rides have nothing but a dodgy transfer ticket of dubious provenance and even worse affidavits, story changes and testimony.

#468 Karl Kinaski

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 12:43 PM

How about the following scenario?


ca. 12.35 /40

Oswald got into the Rambler, used by Ruth Paine at that time. witnesses: Roger Craig, Marvin Robinson, and Roy Cooper. He was led out at a bus station then, to reach a save house by bus. (NOT bus 1213) The bus get into heavy traffic. (Witnesses: none)

Oswald, who had a timeline, left the bus walked west on commerce, turned south on Jackson Street , to get a taxi. (Witness: William Whaley the taxi driver). 12.45/55

The save house was in the vicinity where Oswald lived before: Neely and Elsbeth Street... (Thats why he was so elusive, when Fritz asked him about Neely Street... your not talking about a save house to ordinary police...)

ca. 12.55

Oswald left the taxi in good mute, everything was working out fine for him. From the save house, he thought, they would bring him to Redbird - airport. The Plan was to fly him to Huston, and then, by David Ferrie?, to Mexico, where he, if you believe her story, would meet his brand new IC-love Judyth Baker...BUT...his handlers had other plans with him. They sent him back to his Beckley adress, to get his pistol and told him to wait in the Texas Theater for further instructions. Now Oswald was nervous. A change in the plans? WTF? But he did, what he was told. He was driven back to Beckley by car, (around 13.00)maybe the fake squad car #107, took his pistole, and was brought back. (by car). He entered the TT at 13.05, 13.10. (Witness Buch Bourroughs.)He was now in the Theater, waiting for his instructor. But there was no instructor. Instead, the police went in. The trap for the most famous patsy of the 20. century snapped shut.



It's only speculation, but I like it...

KK

Edited by Karl Kinaski, 17 July 2012 - 12:49 PM.


#469 Karl Kinaski

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 12:53 PM


Raymond

I trust Whaleys testimony, but I can't see, how it exonerates Oswald---?????

enlightenment - please

KK

You're asking Raymond Carroll for enlightenment? You'll be in for a long wait. The guy gets confused due to the fact that he doesn't even bother reading the evidence that is supplied with the conclusions contained in other members posts. He simply takes snippets of info and replies with generic knee jerk nonsense.The day he provides any evidence for his statements, and musters enough energy to counter the evidence presented, will be a strange day at the Education Forum.


I know that R. Carroll doesn't know, what he is talking about. My request for enlightenment was rather rhetoric...

Edited by Karl Kinaski, 17 July 2012 - 12:55 PM.


#470 Guest_Lee Farley_*

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 01:16 PM

How about the following scenario?


ca. 12.35 /40

Oswald got into the Rambler, used by Ruth Paine at that time. witnesses: Roger Craig, Marvin Robinson, and Roy Cooper. He was led out at a bus station then, to reach a save house by bus. (NOT bus 1213) The bus get into heavy traffic. (Witnesses: none)

Oswald, who had a timeline, left the bus walked west on commerce, turned south on Jackson Street , to get a taxi. (Witness: William Whaley the taxi driver). 12.45/55

The save house was in the vicinity where Oswald lived before: Neely and Elsbeth Street... (Thats why he was so elusive, when Fritz asked him about Neely Street... your not talking about a save house to ordinary police...)

ca. 12.55

Oswald left the taxi in good mute, everything was working out fine for him. From the save house, he thought, they would bring him to Redbird - airport. The Plan was to fly him to Huston, and then, by David Ferrie?, to Mexico, where he, if you believe her story, would meet his brand new IC-love Judyth Baker...BUT...his handlers had other plans with him. They sent him back to his Beckley adress, to get his pistol and told him to wait in the Texas Theater for further instructions. Now Oswald was nervous. A change in the plans? WTF? But he did, what he was told. He was driven back to Beckley by car, (around 13.00)maybe the fake squad car #107, took his pistole, and was brought back. (by car). He entered the TT at 13.05, 13.10. (Witness Buch Bourroughs.)He was now in the Theater, waiting for his instructor. But there was no instructor. Instead, the police went in. The trap for the most famous patsy of the 20. century snapped shut.



It's only speculation, but I like it...

KK

I believe I demonstrated on the Oswald and Taxi 36 thread that Whaley's statements and testimony are about as much use as a chocolate teapot.They're worse than Bledsoe's because the flexing and bending to the needs of the Warren Commission Counsellors is there for all to see and is no more blatant than when he gets to his second WC appearance. I'm sorry Karl but Whaley is one of the official narrative's worst witnesses along with Howard Brennan, William Scoggins, Cecil McWatters, Helen Markham and Old Mary. None of them part of any "conspiracy" but all of them used as pawns in creating a case against Lee Oswald.

#471 Karl Kinaski

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 08:20 PM

Lee. I agree, that Whaley, Bledsoe, Brennan, Markham, McWatters, Brewer etc.are tricky witnesses. But not because they didn't know what they were talking about (Hi. Raymond) ;-). They were brainwashed victims of the Warren Commission staff. The fact, that the men who interviewed Whaley, for example, succeeded to confuse him, and made him contradict himself, does not mean, that Oswald was not in his taxi.

Whaley. I think, got a hunch that his interrogators were playing tricks on him, , because he said at one lucid moment, that he didn't "...WANT TO GET YOU MIXED UP AND GET YOUR WHOLE INVESTGATION GET MIXED UP THROUGH MY IGNORANCE BUT A GOOD DEFENSE ATTORNEY COULD TAKE ME APART. I GET CONFUSED."

The fact, that the WC interrogators did play the same game with Brennan, does not mean, that he saw no shooter at all. he saw a shooter. But that man wasn't Oswald, and he saw him, not in the Oswald window...and it is common knowledge, that a lot of important WC testimonies were edited after the interview-sessions without the knowledge of the witness. (For example: the testimonies of Roger Craig, Jean Hill and Victoria Adams...)
Therefore I am very careful to blame a witness, because maybe I would blame the victim...

KK

Edited by Karl Kinaski, 17 July 2012 - 08:21 PM.


#472 Guest_Lee Farley_*

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 01:12 PM

I have been piecing the Bus and Taxi ride narratives together for nearly a year now. I'm hoping to have a comprehensive and fully footnoted and sourced article prepared in the next few weeks.

The more I have researched this part of the assassination story the more evident it has become to me that Mary Bledsoe was most certainly the "elderly woman", as witnessed by both Roy Milton Jones and Cecil McWatters, who boarded the bus over on Marsalis Avenue in Oak Cliff after the assassination and long after the bus had been through Dealey Plaza. Mary Bledsoe was the "elderly woman" who spoke to Roy Milton Jones about the "President being shot" and it was Roy Jones' laughing on the bus during this discussion that created the impression in her mind that she had confronted something worthy of informing the Dallas Police about.

Later on the afternoon of 11/22/63 she believed she has seen Lee Oswald on her bus and he was laughing like a "maniac" whilst discussing the assassination with her. She had in fact seen Roy Milton Jones.

When the police receive the phone call from Bledsoe's son, Porter, they are more interested in finding the bus driver than they are in speaking to Bledsoe directly. The reason for this is because she, at this point in time, did not actually know Lee Harvey Oswald. The police instead decide to trace Cecil McWatters and his bus. They bring him into City Hall just after 6pm the evening of the 22nd. He is kept there for more than six hours. They have access to his transfers from his bus and they have access to his transfer punch. The McWatters ID of Oswald does not go as planned. McWatters also thinks he is IDing Roy Milton Jones. He does not make a positive ID. He lets the cat out of the bag during his Warren Commission testimony. Although the Dallas Police lie about McWatters making a positive ID of Oswald and a positive ID that the transfer he is shown is the one he gave to Oswald he actually did neither.

The police need something more concrete. Mary Bledsoe will now transport from Marsalis Avenue in Oak Cliff and she will instead board the bus on Elm Street.

What was fascinating whilst piecing this jigsaw puzzle together was when I found out that Mary Bledsoe was a very special witness. She was afforded something that was not offered to anyone else who was directly involved in this case. She got complete anonymity. For well over twelve months her identity was protected and hidden and it extended through, and also after, her appearance before the Warren Commission.

Can anybody cite any other witness who was given this treatment? This anonymity extended to the point that when Joachim Joesten published his book Oswald; Assassin or Fall Guy prior to the release of the Warren Commission Report in the fall of 1964, Mary Bledsoe's name was still unpublished. Joesten writes:

"There happened to be on that bus a woman who knew Oswald and who testified that he never opened his mouth...This woman really exists; her name and address are known, even if not for publication. She has a rooming house, also at Oak Cliff, where Oswald stayed for a week."

On the evening of Sunday November 24th, after Oswald is dead, Henry Wade held his press conference where he outlined his "proofs" of Oswald's guilt and point number 10 in Wade's incredibly weak arsenal was that Oswald "Told the lady on the bus that the President had been shot...the defendant said, 'Yes, he's been shot,' and laughed very loud."

On November 26, 1963, two days after Wade's press conference and five days after the assassination, Hugh Aynesworth in the Dallas Morning News wrote the following under the headline Evidence Mounting On Oswald:

"The source also said a woman who Oswald allegedly told about the President being shot knew the accused, who was slain Sunday morning in the basement of City Hall. The woman reportedly lives in the same neighborhood where Oswald rented a room."

So the evolution of a bogus sighting suddenly begins to morph into a valid witness sighting from someone who knew the "accused" and the morphing begins to take place between Friday November 22nd and Tuesday the 26th.

This is why Hugh Aynesworth is not worthy of anybody's time. As far as I'm concerned he had to have known that this story was bogus and it must have been quite evident that the story was morphing from its original itineration over subsequent days. If he didn't know it at the time he had to have known in the subsequent months through 1964. Yet he keeps defending this indefensible story.

In summary here is what we have:

1. McWatters affidavit that clearly states (from the evening of the 22nd) that an elderly woman boarded his bus on Marsalis Avenue in Oak Cliff and she spoke to a young man about the President being shot in the temple. The boy begins laughing. The woman took exception to this.
2. Roy Milton Jones' FBI statement that an elderly woman boarded the bus over on Marsalis Avenue in Oak Cliff whom he spoke to about the President being shot. He began laughing nervously. The woman took exception to this.
3. Both Cecil McWatters and Roy Milton Jones both identified the seat the elderly woman sat in as being one of the bus seats closest to the driver
4. Neither McWatters or Jones remember any elderly lady boarding the bus at St. Paul and Elm where Bledsoe claims she got on. Bledsoe also claimed to sit in the seat closest to the driver which was exactly the same seat that McWatters and Jones claim the elderly lady, that they both remembered, sat in when she boarded over on Marsalis Avenue in Oak Cliff.
5. Henry Wade uses the elderly woman's altercation on the bus with the "accused" and "Oswald's" laughing as evidence of Oswald's guilt on Sunday November 24th. We know this was not Oswald.
6. On Tuesday November 26th Aynesworth writes that the "...woman who Oswald allegedly told about the President being shot knew the accused."
7. On Friday November 29th the New York Herald Tribune claimed, "An elderly Dallas woman, who asked to remain anonymous, said she saw him [Oswald] get on [the bus]...wearing an old brown shirt with the tail hanging out."
8. The Marsalis woman is now forgotten about and we instead have Mary Bledsoe who now knows Oswald and rented a room to him for a week. A cast-iron identification is now possible and the official lone-nut timeline can be established.
9.. Bledsoe was then protected for over a year, her name never being published, her photograph never being released, and no on-the-record interviews or TV appearances ever taking place.
10. She appears before the Warren Commission, again under anonymity, and she uses notes prepared for her by the Secret Service. She also appears with a well-connected Dallas lawyer who will take over much of the Blesdsoe questioning from Joseph Ball.
11. Her testimony is the worst in the entire XXVI volumes and it was the worst because it was made up out of thin air. The notes were to help her but they instead hindered her. She "forgot what she had to say" because everything she did say was complete BS.
11. After her WC appearance her name will still go unpublished by the media.

The evolution of a myth...

Point six is the key that I was missing when I first began to research this thing. Aynesworth provided it for me. So a (tongue-firmly--in-cheek) belated thank-you to Hugh and the Dallas Morning News for proving that Bledsoe was the woman who boarded the bus over on Marsalis Avenue and everything that ultimately stemmed from this Bledsoe sighting of Roy Milton Jones is complete fiction.

Edited by Lee Farley, 12 December 2012 - 04:36 PM.


#473 Robert Newell

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:13 PM

Thanks for that Lee. Look forward to the article..........Robert




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