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James Andrews stopped by Tippit


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#1 David Josephs

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Posted 18 May 2011 - 07:28 PM

I did a search of the forum and did come up with the Andrews/Tippit encounter on a few pages yet was not able to find out WHY Tippit would choose that car to stop...

Could there be any connection to this car...?

Be interesting to see if Andrews' car could give a cclue as to who/what Tippit was after...

1:24 Dispatcher Somebody pulled in there and bought some gas; driving a white Pontiac '61 or '62 station wagon with the prefix P(ecos) E(llis). He had a rifle laying on the seat.

1:26 87 (Ptm. R.C. Nelson) A white station wagon believed to be P (Paul) E (Ellis) 3435, unknown make or model, late model, occupied by two white males, left this fellow's station going east on Davis and believed they had a shotgun or rifle laying in the back seat.
1:26 Dispatcher Received, 87.
1:26 87 (Ptm. R.C. Nelson) 87 en route down there on Jefferson.
1:26 Dispatcher 87, when you get down there see if you can find that car down there at the scene.
1:26 87 (Ptm. R.C. Nelson) 10-4, Code 2. (Beeps)
1:26 Dispatcher 3
1:26 87 (Ptm. R.C. Nelson) 10-4.

1:34 Dispatcher P (Paul) E (Ellis) 3435, C.E. Storey, 5317 Goodman, 1961 Falcon (four door?).
1:34 87 (Ptm. R.C. Nelson) He wasn't sure of the license number.
1:34 Dispatcher 10-4.

#2 David Josephs

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 10:28 PM

There are those that state Andrews was making it up... the entire story...

If he wasn't... there had to be a reason Tippit stopped him...

Was it
Similiar to the car he was looking for?
or to the Person driving the car?

Can't imagine it being just random...

thanks
DJ

#3 Michael Hogan

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 12:12 AM

There are those that state Andrews was making it up... the entire story...

If he wasn't... there had to be a reason Tippit stopped him...

Was it
Similiar to the car he was looking for?
or to the Person driving the car?

Can't imagine it being just random...

thanks
DJ


Hi DJ,

Certainly the Andrews story is provocative, if true. One can go mad conjuring up possibilities and implications of all the loose threads in this case. I guess that's how breakthroughs are made.
To me the bona fides of this incident are weak.

If this really happened to Andrews, it is inexplicable why he did not go to the police immediately upon hearing about Tippit's death. Also, Lowery could have found out if Andrews had ever told anyone else of this bombshell. Did Andrews carry this information with him for years until a researcher started asking him about Roscoe White?

This is what researcher Bill Drenas wrote in his essay Car 10, Where Are You?

This information is provided by Greg Lowrey by way of Bill Pulte. James A. Andrews worked for American National Life Insurance whose offices were located across the street from Austin’s Barbecue. Greg Lowrey was interviewing Andrews to get recollections of Roscoe White who worked out of the same office as Andrews. During the interview Andrews told Greg “Since you are interested in the assassination, let me tell you something that happened” and told the following story. James A. Andrew’s was returning to work at his office in Oak Cliff a little after 1:00 P.M. on 11/22/63. He was driving west on West 10th Street (about eight or nine blocks from where Tippit was shot minutes later, see map). Suddenly a police car also traveling west on West 10th Street came up from behind Andrews’ car, passed him and cut in front of Andrews’s car forcing him to stop. The police car pulled in front of Andrews’ car at an angle heading into the curb in order to stop him. The officer then jumped out of the patrol car motioned to Andrews to remain stopped, ran back to Andrews’ car, and looked in the space between the front seat and the back seat. Without saying a word the policeman went back to the patrol car and then drove off quickly. Andrews was perplexed by this strange behavior and looked at the officer’s nameplate, which read “Tippit” (Tippit was wearing his nameplate on 11/22/63. This is documented in a list of personal effects removed from his body at the time of death. Source: Dallas Municipal Archives) Andrews remarked that Tippit seemed to be very upset and agitated and was acting wild.

We know by the statements Louis Cortinas at the Top Ten Record Shop that Tippit was last seen running a stop sign and traveling east on Sunset Ave. The location of Andrews’ encounter with Tippit is approximately 2 blocks northwest of the record shop. Did this event happen before or after Tippit was seen at the record shop? Given Andrews’ statement that this happened a little after 1:00 P.M. let us use the 1:03 P.M. missed call as a benchmark. Since the only documented time that Tippit was away from his car radio was when he went into the record shop, the probability is high that James A. Andrews’ encounter with J.D. Tippit happened just moments after Tippit was seen at the record shop. Tippit could have gone east on Sunset then gone north on Madison or Zangs then taken a left onto West 10th Street and this would have put Tippit traveling in the proper direction to have ‘cut off’ Andrews’ car that was also traveling west on West 10th Street.

Why did Tippit choose Andrews’ car to stop? Why didn’t he pull over Andrews’ car using conventional police procedure by using red lights and siren and stopping to the rear of Andrews’ car? Why did Tippit ‘cut off’ Andrews car the way he did? Why didn’t Tippit speak to Andrews or give him any explanation for what was going on? Why was Tippit so upset and acting the way he did? If these questions could be answered it would be very helpful in determining what was going on in the last minutes of Tippit’s life. Exactly where Tippit went and for how long after his sighting at the record shop and after his encounter with James A. Andrews are still unknown.

Not really enough to go on, in my opinion.

Edited by Michael Hogan, 20 May 2011 - 12:12 AM.


#4 Duke Lane

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Posted 19 June 2011 - 04:47 PM

Certainly the Andrews story is provocative, if true. One can go mad conjuring up possibilities and implications of all the loose threads in this case. I guess that's how breakthroughs are made. To me the bona fides of this incident are weak....


I have to agree that the story lacks in bona fides, particularly in the way it came out (and that it never had before), and especially since it is so out of synch with what we know (or believe) about both prior and subsequent events. Let me expound on that.

First, consider the setting of someone asking you about someone thought to possibly be part of a conspiracy to murder the President, possibly even being a shooter. Perhaps I'm not giving Greg Lowery enough credit, but I can say first-hand that it's sometimes very difficult not to give away your own point of view on the issue you're interviewing someone about. Like a homicide detective asking questions about a "person of interest," the interviewee can often if not generally discern that that you're suspicious of the subject you're discussing. It's very nearly "second nature" to tailor one's responses and the information volunteered to the interviewer's point of view: you think he's suspicious, you're making me think he's suspicious, so let me tell you about some suspicious things. In this case, you think there's a conspiracy, so here's something that supports that notion.

Next, consider what we know about the events leading up to Tippit's death. For a guy who was supposedly waiting to play some part, however peripheral, in a conspiracy to either kill the President of the United States and/or to facilitate his supposed killer's escape (or whatever else someone might suspect he was supposed to do), the record shows that he was pursuing a rather mundane agenda in the moments leading up to his big role, dealing with someone suspected of shoplifting from a small market store in his regular patrol beat.

We know he reported being at Kiest & Bonnieview when first called - and if he was supposed to be playing some role, waiting for his cue from dispatch (for, other than hanging around a payphone somewhere, how else would he have been contacted?), why would he report being anywhere other than where he actually was? - and then, eight minutes later, reported his location as being at 8th & Lancaster which, coincidentally, takes almost exactly that amount of time to reach driving the current 40mph speed limit (Tippit was not told to proceed to central Oak Cliff "on code," i.e., with any combination of lights and siren) via Bonnieview north, which curves around to become 8th before crossing the freeway and intersecting Lancaster.

Sidebar: the Gloco station was a lot closer and would've only taken 2-3 minutes to reach and possibly (if not probably) less. If it was Tippit at the Gloco, who "peeled away" at speed when he was "notified" of being needed, reported an incorrect location, first, what took him so long to get such a short distance? Second, why would he report a second incorrect location if he was trying to convey, say, being "in place" for whatever he had to do next? And third, how did he pick two incorrect locations and manage to report being at each of them almost exactly the same amount of time that it would actually have taken him to go from one to the other?

The eight-minute travel time from Point A to Point B (that I've repeatedly driven in the same amount of time) does not depict a man in a great hurry, and nothing about his next order - to "remain at large for any emergency that comes in" - does not, unless it was "in code," suggest that he needs in any way to "shake a leg" for any reason, nor does a presumed ability to understand the "coded language" of his last order suggest that he needed to call in to dispatch for any sort of clarification, an implication of his side-trip to the Top Ten Record Store to use the phone. Indeed, it makes little sense that this "coded message" to call in would be result in an unanswered call (tho' admittedly it is possible that he merely listened and did not respond).

We last hear from Tippit at 12:54, giving him a little more than 10 minutes to travel to the Top Ten, make a call, depart "in a hurry" and arrive at 10th & Patton in time to meet his killer (tho' one would hardly suspect that he'd expected to do that!), a very do-able estimate. Dave Perry has opined that a possible reason for his Top Ten call was to find out if "the rabbit had died," that is, to get in contact with his girlfriend (who had a baby girl some 7-8 months later) to learn if she was pregnant. Given the okay to "remain at large" (i.e., "patrol at your leisure") but not having "all day" to check in on her given the emergency downtown and the possibility that he'd be called to assist in some way, nothing about this side-trip is out of character with such a personal mission; the only question, perhaps, is why he didn't just drive by her place without calling first.

So he left Top Ten "in a hurry," at least in the estimation of the shop's owner. He drives quickly up a block, doesn't stop (fully?) for a stop sign, and disappears from sight to the east. Then, according to Andrews' story, he then proceeds to act like a madman ("acting wild") in pulling him over, peering into his car, and speeding off again without a word. Then, within five minutes of this manic encounter, he's cool, calm and collected again as drives slowly down the street (at least, not fast enough to have previously gotten Helen Markham's attention as she prepared to cross the street), pulls slowly to the curb, "talks through a window" to a guy walking on the street, and gets out of his car "real friendly like" before being gunned down.

So where does all this "frenzy" come from during his purported encounter with Andrews, and where does it disappear to within just a couple of minutes of his leaving? What happened to the aggression of "curbing" someone in a car driving down the street, jumping out, looking for something or someone in the front and back seats of the car before speeding off again in "pursuit" of some unknown thing, that by the time he got to 10th & Patton had become that can only be described as casual friendliness? Why didn't he exhibit the same kind of behavior such a short while later as he supposedly did with Andrews when he pulled up beside his killer?

There was nothing in his post-mortem tox screen to suggest what he'd been under the influence of, and nothing in his past to suggest that he was given to episodes of extreme but fleeting anxiety and aggression such as Andrews describes; other than that he left the Top Ten "in a hurry" and maybe "ran a stop sign," there is no suggestion that the abortive phone call he made changed him into a raving lunatic or a "man on a mission." Why, then, should we consider that it actually happened?

There are many more odd goings-on in Oak Cliff in the 30-45 minutes or so before JD Tippit's murder that are much more suspicious – and are contemporaneously documented – that are much more deserving of attention than some long-after-the-fact account of a completely out-of-character and out-of-context (not to mention "out-of-control!") encounter that makes absolutely no sense when viewed from a broader perspective.


And after all of this, should we not also consider that Tippit was last seen heading north and east from the record shop, and that the location of Andrews' purported encounter was north and west of the record shop? That means that, if it happened, Tippit changed directions twice - first after turning "east on Sunset," and then to get back east to 10th & Patton after the "encouter" with Andrews to the west while driving (and departing) westward - before his "routine" patrol down 10th Street, to the east and in an easterly directlion.

There's nothing sensible about this story at all, is there? If so, I'd love to hear it....

#5 William Kelly

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 10:11 AM

I don't agree with Duke that we should assume that Tippit was part of any conspiracy, and knew what was going on.

It doesn't appear that Tippit did know what was going down, or knew that he was part of it, or would become part of it, and may have been just trying to figure things out himself, just was Oswald was.

And while the story did come out in a haphazard way, there is no implication of conspiracy if the story is true.

It's just that Tippit stopped someone, looked in the back seat and sped off to his destiny.

And as suggested, perhaps he was checking the back seat of the car to see if it was the vehicle that they were looking for, one that the gas station attendent reported had a rifle in the back seat.

Maybe instead of trying to fit Andrews story in with what is assumed to be true, we should reexamine what we assume and see if it that fits.

BK

#6 Duke Lane

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 10:25 PM

I don't agree with Duke that we should assume that Tippit was part of any conspiracy, and knew what was going on.

I think that Bill means to agree with me in larger part because I've certainly never suggested that Tippit was a part of any conspiracy, but rather an intended victim of one.

It doesn't appear that Tippit did know what was going down, or knew that he was part of it, or would become part of it, and may have been just trying to figure things out himself, just was Oswald was.

And while the story did come out in a haphazard way, there is no implication of conspiracy if the story is true.

It's just that Tippit stopped someone, looked in the back seat and sped off to his destiny.

And as suggested, perhaps he was checking the back seat of the car to see if it was the vehicle that they were looking for, one that the gas station attendent reported had a rifle in the back seat

Maybe instead of trying to fit Andrews story in with what is assumed to be true, we should reexamine what we assume and see if it that fits.

There again we seem to be going down the same path different ways. What I thought I was saying is that the Andrews story just doesn't make sense. It does not fit with either known facts nor even assumed ones that I've examined and found that "fit" with those that are known. A quick recap:

  • The guys at Top Ten Records last claim to have seen Tippit leave northbound, then eastbound. This jibes, at least, with the fact that Tippit died north and east of where these guys saw him.
  • The Andrews stop - if it ever happened - was north and west of Top Ten, and afterward, "Tippit" took off, again going west. Then, in what could only have been a few minutes later at most, he was several blocks east of the stop location, going easterly.
  • "Tippit" "sped off" from the "Andrews scene" and is described as acting like a "wild man." That short time later, in addition to the above disparities, he was cruising slowly across 10th and approached his killer slowly and "real friendly like."
Why would Tippit approach a man in a car, in the direction opposite he was last seen, like "a wild man," yet approach another on foot in a diametrically opposing manner? Why would he "speed off" westbound and end up east of this location, cruising slowly?

Do you notice police officers' name tags when you get a ticket? And if you do, do you really remember it for any period of time? Imagine a cop "herding" you to the side of the road, jumping out of his car, sprinting back to you, looking into your car and then sprinting back to his without saying a word: if you weren't going to make a complaint or an inquiry, why would you even look at his name badge, much less remember it? And then not say a word to anyone for a couple of decades, but recall what is ultimately an insignificant detail with utter clarity?

I simply don't buy it. It doesn't "listen" well, and runs counter to the facts, particularly where, how far away, and when Tippit died. Just because Andrews claimed "his" cop was acting "like a wild man" does not incite me to re-think whether Helen Markham and Bill Scoggins might both have gotten his demeanor entirely wrong.

As to:

...perhaps he was checking the back seat of the car to see if it was the vehicle that they were looking for, one that the gas station attendent reported had a rifle in the back seat

... the problem is that this car was not reported over the radio - the only way Tippit could have known about it - until after the "citizen call" when he was already dead. It doesn't seem fruitful, then, to consider that there is any connection between the incidents, at least not insofar as Tippit was concerned or involved.

Either the incident never happened, it was another cop, or Tippit was the fastest guy on the department, and/or the only one who could get to a point in the east by driving west. The only other cop acknowledged to be in the area - WD Mentzel, the only patrol cop on break throughout the city - was eating lunch at Luby's. If we can't name the "other cop," then there's only one other conclusion.



#7 Chuck Robbins

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 01:16 AM

Hi Duke,

I'm not familiar enough with the story to know about the rabbit part. Was he actually heard asking if the rabbit was dead?

I only ask because wasn't Oswald known as Ozzie Rabbit in the Marines?

#8 Chuck Robbins

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Posted 24 June 2011 - 09:00 PM

I don't agree with Duke that we should assume that Tippit was part of any conspiracy, and knew what was going on.

I think that Bill means to agree with me in larger part because I've certainly never suggested that Tippit was a part of any conspiracy, but rather an intended victim of one.

It doesn't appear that Tippit did know what was going down, or knew that he was part of it, or would become part of it, and may have been just trying to figure things out himself, just was Oswald was.

And while the story did come out in a haphazard way, there is no implication of conspiracy if the story is true.

It's just that Tippit stopped someone, looked in the back seat and sped off to his destiny.

And as suggested, perhaps he was checking the back seat of the car to see if it was the vehicle that they were looking for, one that the gas station attendent reported had a rifle in the back seat

Maybe instead of trying to fit Andrews story in with what is assumed to be true, we should reexamine what we assume and see if it that fits.

There again we seem to be going down the same path different ways. What I thought I was saying is that the Andrews story just doesn't make sense. It does not fit with either known facts nor even assumed ones that I've examined and found that "fit" with those that are known. A quick recap:

  • The guys at Top Ten Records last claim to have seen Tippit leave northbound, then eastbound. This jibes, at least, with the fact that Tippit died north and east of where these guys saw him.
  • The Andrews stop - if it ever happened - was north and west of Top Ten, and afterward, "Tippit" took off, again going west. Then, in what could only have been a few minutes later at most, he was several blocks east of the stop location, going easterly.
  • "Tippit" "sped off" from the "Andrews scene" and is described as acting like a "wild man." That short time later, in addition to the above disparities, he was cruising slowly across 10th and approached his killer slowly and "real friendly like."
Why would Tippit approach a man in a car, in the direction opposite he was last seen, like "a wild man," yet approach another on foot in a diametrically opposing manner? Why would he "speed off" westbound and end up east of this location, cruising slowly?

Do you notice police officers' name tags when you get a ticket? And if you do, do you really remember it for any period of time? Imagine a cop "herding" you to the side of the road, jumping out of his car, sprinting back to you, looking into your car and then sprinting back to his without saying a word: if you weren't going to make a complaint or an inquiry, why would you even look at his name badge, much less remember it? And then not say a word to anyone for a couple of decades, but recall what is ultimately an insignificant detail with utter clarity?

I simply don't buy it. It doesn't "listen" well, and runs counter to the facts, particularly where, how far away, and when Tippit died. Just because Andrews claimed "his" cop was acting "like a wild man" does not incite me to re-think whether Helen Markham and Bill Scoggins might both have gotten his demeanor entirely wrong.

As to:

...perhaps he was checking the back seat of the car to see if it was the vehicle that they were looking for, one that the gas station attendent reported had a rifle in the back seat

... the problem is that this car was not reported over the radio - the only way Tippit could have known about it - until after the "citizen call" when he was already dead. It doesn't seem fruitful, then, to consider that there is any connection between the incidents, at least not insofar as Tippit was concerned or involved.

Either the incident never happened, it was another cop, or Tippit was the fastest guy on the department, and/or the only one who could get to a point in the east by driving west. The only other cop acknowledged to be in the area - WD Mentzel, the only patrol cop on break throughout the city - was eating lunch at Luby's. If we can't name the "other cop," then there's only one other conclusion.


Wasn't Parker in the area at that time? We discussed this long ago. He went out for 5 on e. Jefferson and was not heard from again that day. Dispatch tried to contact him, with no success.

I'll leave my suspicions about Parker for another topic.

#9 Chuck Robbins

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Posted 24 June 2011 - 09:04 PM

I don't agree with Duke that we should assume that Tippit was part of any conspiracy, and knew what was going on.

I think that Bill means to agree with me in larger part because I've certainly never suggested that Tippit was a part of any conspiracy, but rather an intended victim of one.

It doesn't appear that Tippit did know what was going down, or knew that he was part of it, or would become part of it, and may have been just trying to figure things out himself, just was Oswald was.

And while the story did come out in a haphazard way, there is no implication of conspiracy if the story is true.

It's just that Tippit stopped someone, looked in the back seat and sped off to his destiny.

And as suggested, perhaps he was checking the back seat of the car to see if it was the vehicle that they were looking for, one that the gas station attendent reported had a rifle in the back seat

Maybe instead of trying to fit Andrews story in with what is assumed to be true, we should reexamine what we assume and see if it that fits.

There again we seem to be going down the same path different ways. What I thought I was saying is that the Andrews story just doesn't make sense. It does not fit with either known facts nor even assumed ones that I've examined and found that "fit" with those that are known. A quick recap:

  • The guys at Top Ten Records last claim to have seen Tippit leave northbound, then eastbound. This jibes, at least, with the fact that Tippit died north and east of where these guys saw him.
  • The Andrews stop - if it ever happened - was north and west of Top Ten, and afterward, "Tippit" took off, again going west. Then, in what could only have been a few minutes later at most, he was several blocks east of the stop location, going easterly.
  • "Tippit" "sped off" from the "Andrews scene" and is described as acting like a "wild man." That short time later, in addition to the above disparities, he was cruising slowly across 10th and approached his killer slowly and "real friendly like."
Why would Tippit approach a man in a car, in the direction opposite he was last seen, like "a wild man," yet approach another on foot in a diametrically opposing manner? Why would he "speed off" westbound and end up east of this location, cruising slowly?

Do you notice police officers' name tags when you get a ticket? And if you do, do you really remember it for any period of time? Imagine a cop "herding" you to the side of the road, jumping out of his car, sprinting back to you, looking into your car and then sprinting back to his without saying a word: if you weren't going to make a complaint or an inquiry, why would you even look at his name badge, much less remember it? And then not say a word to anyone for a couple of decades, but recall what is ultimately an insignificant detail with utter clarity?

I simply don't buy it. It doesn't "listen" well, and runs counter to the facts, particularly where, how far away, and when Tippit died. Just because Andrews claimed "his" cop was acting "like a wild man" does not incite me to re-think whether Helen Markham and Bill Scoggins might both have gotten his demeanor entirely wrong.

As to:

...perhaps he was checking the back seat of the car to see if it was the vehicle that they were looking for, one that the gas station attendent reported had a rifle in the back seat

... the problem is that this car was not reported over the radio - the only way Tippit could have known about it - until after the "citizen call" when he was already dead. It doesn't seem fruitful, then, to consider that there is any connection between the incidents, at least not insofar as Tippit was concerned or involved.

Either the incident never happened, it was another cop, or Tippit was the fastest guy on the department, and/or the only one who could get to a point in the east by driving west. The only other cop acknowledged to be in the area - WD Mentzel, the only patrol cop on break throughout the city - was eating lunch at Luby's. If we can't name the "other cop," then there's only one other conclusion.


Wasn't Parker in the area at that time? We discussed this long ago. He went out for 5 on e. Jefferson and was not heard from again that day. Dispatch tried to contact him, with no success.

I'll leave my suspicions about Parker for another topic.

#10 Duke Lane

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Posted 25 June 2011 - 06:03 PM

Wasn't Parker in the area at that time? We discussed this long ago. He went out for 5 on e. Jefferson and was not heard from again that day. Dispatch tried to contact him, with no success.

I'll leave my suspicions about Parker for another topic.

There were two cops in the area that we know of - i.e., have documentary evidence of their whereabouts - in the Oak Cliff area in an "unauthorized" capacity. Neither were sent there, one of them was told to remain in his own area (after reporting that he was well outside of it, leading one to wonder if the dispatcher(s) didn't realize he was out of area), and both of whom were within 2 miles of Tippit's murder scene, one of them within just a few blocks of it.

One was WP Parker, assigned to far southeast Dallas, out by Mesquite and Garland; the other was LM Lewis, assigned to northwest Dallas up by Carrollton and Farmers Branch. Parker reported being on "East Jefferson," and Lewis reported being at "105 Corinth," both without giving any other indication that they were outside their regular patrol areas. Could their dispatchers have been unaware that the locations that they did report were not in their assigned areas, especially since dispatchers were assigned duties according to patrol area?

After reporting their locations, Parker signed off the radio ("out") "for five" (minutes?), and Lewis - after having been told specifically to remain on patrol in his area - stated that he was going downtown. What either of these men did after making these reports is open to speculation.

What is particularly interesting is that after Parker reported in after a frantic search for him by dispatch (a couple of calls for him specifically after the downtown shooting, then a general request to know if "anyone [has] seen 56"), he says he is "out," is then asked his location ("East Jefferson") which is acknowledged, and then, within 30 seconds later, Tippit is dispatched to the same area Parker reported being. Lewis' location was about half-way between the two locations Tippit reported (Kiest & Bonnieview, and 8th & Lancaster), along the most direct (and only logical) route between those points, also reporting that he was leaving that location (ostensibly for downtown) at about the same time that Tippit would have been crossing the intersection where Lewis had reported being.

Neither of the two men, however, indicated that they were anywhere near Andrews' purported location several blocks west of Zangs Boulevard. I'd have to look to be certain if Andrews was even in district 91, the northern of Mentzel's two patrol districts (north of Jefferson), and within its western boundary (don't recall the street name). The districts to the west of 91 and 92, Mentzel's, were assigned to an Officer HM Ashcraft (districts 93 and 94).

According to my notes, at 12:34, an Officer Pate from District 24 (where Parkland is) was sent to Inwood and Stemmons to "direct an ambulance to Parkland," and Ashcraft was assigned to join Pate there at 12:36. This ambulance never arrived anywhere near where they were, and dispatch seemed to know what became of it. Prior to that assignment, Ashcraft was already outside of his district by about two miles, in a "landlocked" area hemmed in by the Fort Worth Turnpike (I-30) and the Trinity River known as West Dallas. He and Pate were released from this "phantom ambulance chase" just after Tippit's 12:45 assignment into central Oak Cliff, and was told to report to the TSBD.

Presuming that Ashcraft did as he was told, he was not in his district west of Mentzel's during the time between Tippit's reassignment and his murder. All of the officers assigned to all of the surrounding districts (with the exceptions of 83 and 84 to the south of central Oak Cliff, and south of Mentzel's southern patrol district 92) are accounted for elsewhere.

Since none of these officers could have been who stopped Andrews, we are left with three possibilities:
  • Tippit stopped Andrews;
  • Another, unknown officer not authorized (or directed) to be in that district stopped Andrews; or
  • Andrews wasn't stopped.
If there's another, what is it?

Since being west of his last reported/claimed location at Top Ten and then speeding off even farther westward doesn't jibe with his last reported/claimed turn after Top Ten to the east, and his murder to the east of Top Ten only minutes later, and that the behavior purported behavior by Andrews between the time Tippit left Top Ten and arrived at 10th & Patton belies the behavior reported at the murder scene, I cannot reconcile that Tippit was indeed who stopped Andrews, and have to conclude that he was not.

That being so, either someone we don't know anything about stopped Andrews for no apparent reason and went off in a direction away from central Oak Cliff, or Andrews simply wasn't stopped and made up a story for a receptive audience. Unless until we can come up with somej officer who was - or even probably was - in that area, I can't see doing anything other than opting for the latter.

Can anyone else? I think there is too much on record about most officers' movements, and we simply know too many minute details about what went on that day to simply give complete credence to Andrews' account with it's only support being that some officer might have been in the area.

#11 Gil Jesus

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 02:45 AM


There are those that state Andrews was making it up... the entire story...

If he wasn't... there had to be a reason Tippit stopped him...

Was it
Similiar to the car he was looking for?
or to the Person driving the car?

Can't imagine it being just random...

thanks
DJ


Hi DJ,

Certainly the Andrews story is provocative, if true. One can go mad conjuring up possibilities and implications of all the loose threads in this case. I guess that's how breakthroughs are made.
To me the bona fides of this incident are weak.

If this really happened to Andrews, it is inexplicable why he did not go to the police immediately upon hearing about Tippit's death. Also, Lowery could have found out if Andrews had ever told anyone else of this bombshell. Did Andrews carry this information with him for years until a researcher started asking him about Roscoe White?

This is what researcher Bill Drenas wrote in his essay Car 10, Where Are You?

This information is provided by Greg Lowrey by way of Bill Pulte. James A. Andrews worked for American National Life Insurance whose offices were located across the street from Austin’s Barbecue. Greg Lowrey was interviewing Andrews to get recollections of Roscoe White who worked out of the same office as Andrews. During the interview Andrews told Greg “Since you are interested in the assassination, let me tell you something that happened” and told the following story. James A. Andrew’s was returning to work at his office in Oak Cliff a little after 1:00 P.M. on 11/22/63. He was driving west on West 10th Street (about eight or nine blocks from where Tippit was shot minutes later, see map). Suddenly a police car also traveling west on West 10th Street came up from behind Andrews’ car, passed him and cut in front of Andrews’s car forcing him to stop. The police car pulled in front of Andrews’ car at an angle heading into the curb in order to stop him. The officer then jumped out of the patrol car motioned to Andrews to remain stopped, ran back to Andrews’ car, and looked in the space between the front seat and the back seat. Without saying a word the policeman went back to the patrol car and then drove off quickly. Andrews was perplexed by this strange behavior and looked at the officer’s nameplate, which read “Tippit” (Tippit was wearing his nameplate on 11/22/63. This is documented in a list of personal effects removed from his body at the time of death. Source: Dallas Municipal Archives) Andrews remarked that Tippit seemed to be very upset and agitated and was acting wild.

We know by the statements Louis Cortinas at the Top Ten Record Shop that Tippit was last seen running a stop sign and traveling east on Sunset Ave. The location of Andrews’ encounter with Tippit is approximately 2 blocks northwest of the record shop. Did this event happen before or after Tippit was seen at the record shop? Given Andrews’ statement that this happened a little after 1:00 P.M. let us use the 1:03 P.M. missed call as a benchmark. Since the only documented time that Tippit was away from his car radio was when he went into the record shop, the probability is high that James A. Andrews’ encounter with J.D. Tippit happened just moments after Tippit was seen at the record shop. Tippit could have gone east on Sunset then gone north on Madison or Zangs then taken a left onto West 10th Street and this would have put Tippit traveling in the proper direction to have ‘cut off’ Andrews’ car that was also traveling west on West 10th Street.

Why did Tippit choose Andrews’ car to stop? Why didn’t he pull over Andrews’ car using conventional police procedure by using red lights and siren and stopping to the rear of Andrews’ car? Why did Tippit ‘cut off’ Andrews car the way he did? Why didn’t Tippit speak to Andrews or give him any explanation for what was going on? Why was Tippit so upset and acting the way he did? If these questions could be answered it would be very helpful in determining what was going on in the last minutes of Tippit’s life. Exactly where Tippit went and for how long after his sighting at the record shop and after his encounter with James A. Andrews are still unknown.

Not really enough to go on, in my opinion.


I'm wondering why Tippit being alone in his cruiser, would stop a car and not radio it in.

#12 Thomas Graves

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 02:58 AM



There are those that state Andrews was making it up... the entire story...

If he wasn't... there had to be a reason Tippit stopped him...

Was it
Similiar to the car he was looking for?
or to the Person driving the car?

Can't imagine it being just random...

thanks
DJ


Hi DJ,

Certainly the Andrews story is provocative, if true. One can go mad conjuring up possibilities and implications of all the loose threads in this case. I guess that's how breakthroughs are made.
To me the bona fides of this incident are weak.

If this really happened to Andrews, it is inexplicable why he did not go to the police immediately upon hearing about Tippit's death. Also, Lowery could have found out if Andrews had ever told anyone else of this bombshell. Did Andrews carry this information with him for years until a researcher started asking him about Roscoe White?

This is what researcher Bill Drenas wrote in his essay Car 10, Where Are You?

This information is provided by Greg Lowrey by way of Bill Pulte. James A. Andrews worked for American National Life Insurance whose offices were located across the street from Austin’s Barbecue. Greg Lowrey was interviewing Andrews to get recollections of Roscoe White who worked out of the same office as Andrews. During the interview Andrews told Greg “Since you are interested in the assassination, let me tell you something that happened” and told the following story. James A. Andrew’s was returning to work at his office in Oak Cliff a little after 1:00 P.M. on 11/22/63. He was driving west on West 10th Street (about eight or nine blocks from where Tippit was shot minutes later, see map). Suddenly a police car also traveling west on West 10th Street came up from behind Andrews’ car, passed him and cut in front of Andrews’s car forcing him to stop. The police car pulled in front of Andrews’ car at an angle heading into the curb in order to stop him. The officer then jumped out of the patrol car motioned to Andrews to remain stopped, ran back to Andrews’ car, and looked in the space between the front seat and the back seat. Without saying a word the policeman went back to the patrol car and then drove off quickly. Andrews was perplexed by this strange behavior and looked at the officer’s nameplate, which read “Tippit” (Tippit was wearing his nameplate on 11/22/63. This is documented in a list of personal effects removed from his body at the time of death. Source: Dallas Municipal Archives) Andrews remarked that Tippit seemed to be very upset and agitated and was acting wild.

We know by the statements Louis Cortinas at the Top Ten Record Shop that Tippit was last seen running a stop sign and traveling east on Sunset Ave. The location of Andrews’ encounter with Tippit is approximately 2 blocks northwest of the record shop. Did this event happen before or after Tippit was seen at the record shop? Given Andrews’ statement that this happened a little after 1:00 P.M. let us use the 1:03 P.M. missed call as a benchmark. Since the only documented time that Tippit was away from his car radio was when he went into the record shop, the probability is high that James A. Andrews’ encounter with J.D. Tippit happened just moments after Tippit was seen at the record shop. Tippit could have gone east on Sunset then gone north on Madison or Zangs then taken a left onto West 10th Street and this would have put Tippit traveling in the proper direction to have ‘cut off’ Andrews’ car that was also traveling west on West 10th Street.

Why did Tippit choose Andrews’ car to stop? Why didn’t he pull over Andrews’ car using conventional police procedure by using red lights and siren and stopping to the rear of Andrews’ car? Why did Tippit ‘cut off’ Andrews car the way he did? Why didn’t Tippit speak to Andrews or give him any explanation for what was going on? Why was Tippit so upset and acting the way he did? If these questions could be answered it would be very helpful in determining what was going on in the last minutes of Tippit’s life. Exactly where Tippit went and for how long after his sighting at the record shop and after his encounter with James A. Andrews are still unknown.

Not really enough to go on, in my opinion.


I'm wondering why Tippit being alone in his cruiser, would stop a car and not radio it in.


I agree. Maybe he was "on a mission."

--Thomas




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