the evolution of the 2nd floor lunchroom story

[Greg Parker]

edit

Edited November 10, 2012 by Greg Parker

[Steve Cearfoss]

" . . .It therefore also provided an excuse to report him missing after he or Shelley had cleared Oswald."

I see no first reference to "Shelley." Who is Shelley? Also, what is "DSL."

It would behoove writers to assume that newcomers (and others) to the JFK assassination might not be familiar with certain people or acronyms referred to casually. It is good journalism to write out a person's full name on first reference along with his official or unofficial position, and to spell out an acronym upon first reference. We want to encourage readers to take an interest in the assassination and we should do everything we can to ensure clarity.

[Greg Parker]

edit

Edited October 25, 2012 by Greg Parker

[Greg Parker]

" . . .It therefore also provided an excuse to report him missing after he or Shelley had cleared Oswald."

I see no first reference to "Shelley." Who is Shelley? Also, what is "DSL."

"Shelley" is Bill Shelley - Oswald's immediate supervisor and the foreman on the floor laying excuse -- I mean -- exercise.

"DSL" is "David S Lifton" - self-professed leader of this "commune" with exclusive rights to the story. He signs here as "DSL".

It would behoove writers to assume that newcomers (and others) to the JFK assassination might not be familiar with certain people or acronyms referred to casually. It is good journalism to write out a person's full name on first reference along with his official or unofficial position, and to spell out an acronym upon first reference. We want to encourage readers to take an interest in the assassination and we should do everything we can to ensure clarity.

Sorry Steve. I note you are a journalist. I am not. Whenever the subject of qualifications has arisen in regard to my work, I have been honest in stating in various ways that I am the equivalent of what you might in the US, call an "uneducated hick from the mountains." I come from convict stock which failed miserably in rehabilitating itself through the generations.

I also note your interest in John Paisley. I'd like to discuss him with you some day, if you're up for it.

[William Kelly]

" . . .It therefore also provided an excuse to report him missing after he or Shelley had cleared Oswald."

I see no first reference to "Shelley." Who is Shelley? Also, what is "DSL."

"Shelley" is Bill Shelley - Oswald's immediate supervisor and the foreman on the floor laying excuse -- I mean -- exercise.

"DSL" is "David S Lifton" - self-professed leader of this "commune" with exclusive rights to the story. He signs here as "DSL".

It would behoove writers to assume that newcomers (and others) to the JFK assassination might not be familiar with certain people or acronyms referred to casually. It is good journalism to write out a person's full name on first reference along with his official or unofficial position, and to spell out an acronym upon first reference. We want to encourage readers to take an interest in the assassination and we should do everything we can to ensure clarity.

Sorry Steve. I note you are a journalist. I am not. Whenever the subject of qualifications has arisen in regard to my work, I have been honest in stating in various ways that I am the equivalent of what you might in the US, call an "uneducated hick from the mountains." I come from convict stock which failed miserably in rehabilitating itself through the generations.

I also note your interest in John Paisley. I'd like to discuss him with you some day, if you're up for it.

As for Shelly, he's the one who Oswald said was with him when he left the TSBD, and gave a cop the okay to let him out, yet Shelly denies this happened.

And Greg, you wouldn't be from near that Ayers mountain would you? That looks like rough country.

I guess you've heard the story of the five Irishmen condemned to death for treason, a sentence the Queen communed and had them sent to an Australian penal colony instead?

Nine Famous Irishmen

When I was in Australia they called me Ned.

[Greg Parker]

Greg, I think this is pretty good.

You covered the two first sources of info for both Baker and Truly, showing that in neither case do they report the second story lunchroom incident. And Fritz's giveaway about their investigation revealing that both guys were wrong is telling.

And I think the fact that you have five reports for this is pretty good also: Baker, Truly, Wade, the Sydney Herald and Jarman.

Nice job about Wade's giveaway about Jones also.

One question: If the guy on the fourth floor was an assassin, how do you think he escaped? COuld he be the guy Worrell saw running from the back of the building?

Jim,

long time since I've looked into those accounts. You'd think I'd pull the proverbial out and do it, wouldn't you? But I keep getting caught up in other areas.

I do think Sean Murphy found a viable suspect .

http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/gallery/ASSASSIONATION/JFK-WITNESSES-SUSPECTS/SUSPECT-IDENTIFIED-BY-SEAN-MURPHY-pic_11.htm

To me, particularly when you see the film clip this is from, he looks Eastern European.

Which makes me wonder if there might not have been something very prescient in this pre-assassination story:

http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t87-the-mrs-jack-d-tippit-phone-call

(scroll down to the bottom third of the post)

[Greg Parker]

" . . .It therefore also provided an excuse to report him missing after he or Shelley had cleared Oswald."

I see no first reference to "Shelley." Who is Shelley? Also, what is "DSL."

"Shelley" is Bill Shelley - Oswald's immediate supervisor and the foreman on the floor laying excuse -- I mean -- exercise.

"DSL" is "David S Lifton" - self-professed leader of this "commune" with exclusive rights to the story. He signs here as "DSL".

It would behoove writers to assume that newcomers (and others) to the JFK assassination might not be familiar with certain people or acronyms referred to casually. It is good journalism to write out a person's full name on first reference along with his official or unofficial position, and to spell out an acronym upon first reference. We want to encourage readers to take an interest in the assassination and we should do everything we can to ensure clarity.

Sorry Steve. I note you are a journalist. I am not. Whenever the subject of qualifications has arisen in regard to my work, I have been honest in stating in various ways that I am the equivalent of what you might in the US, call an "uneducated hick from the mountains." I come from convict stock which failed miserably in rehabilitating itself through the generations.

I also note your interest in John Paisley. I'd like to discuss him with you some day, if you're up for it.

As for Shelly, he's the one who Oswald said was with him when he left the TSBD, and gave a cop the okay to let him out, yet Shelly denies this happened.

And Greg, you wouldn't be from near that Ayers mountain would you? That looks like rough country.

Bill, it ain't a mountain... it be a bloody big rock aka (Ayers Rock). The Aborigines call it Uluru, but the sods won't tell us whiteys what it means (they try and tell us it doesn't mean anything. Yeah. Sure.)

I came from the Watagan Mountains / Lake Macquarie area which was settled by 4 of the sons of my convict forebear.

http://www.visitlake...agan-mountains/ . It was sparsely populated and mostly untarnished bushland when I was a kid. Dirt roads and wild life. My grandfather and his father, his brothers and uncles all fished the waters - fed their large families - gave a share to those without money (bloody Socialists!) and sent the rest to the fish markets in Sydney (bloody Capitalists!)

I guess you've heard the story of the five Irishmen condemned to death for treason, a sentence the Queen communed and had them sent to an Australian penal colony instead?

Actually I hadn't heard it. But like a certain lunch room encounter, it smells of Blarney.

Charles Duffy was never Prime Minister. The position never existed until 1901 when Australia became a federation. He became Premier of Victoria (equivalent of Governor) And according to his wiki page, he immigrated here - and and his parents were also "Duffy's" - not "McDuffy's". Also none of the people named in that link were charged in Ireland with Duffy with sedition or treason

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

I gave up trying to find what the sentence was, but a search of the book failed to show any evidence the sentence was "hanging" or being sent to Van Diemen's Land (Tasmania). Maybe he was acquitted? Or served some time in Ireland then released on pardon before immigrating here?

Nine Famous Irishmen

When I was in Australia they called me Ned.

I'm not surprised! He stuck it to the Man as well... did you ever see the '70s movie with Mick Jagger playing Ned?

Edited August 14, 2011 by Greg Parker

[Greg Parker]

edit

Edited October 25, 2012 by Greg Parker

[Thomas Graves]

STORY ONE: In a first floor store room...

Story one was put forward by Truly to Fritz (and overheard by Kent Biffle) and by Occhus Campbell to the Herald Tribune

"In a storage room on the first floor, the officer, gun drawn, spotted Oswald. 'Does this man work here?' the officer reportedly asked" Kent Biffle, DMN 11/23/63 based on what he heard Truly tell Fritz.

Shortly after the shooting we raced back into the building. We saw Oswald in a small storage room on the ground floor." NY Herald Tribune, 11/23/63 quoting Occhus Campbell who, after the story got switched to the second floor, disavowed seeing Oswald at any time ever.

Fritz confirmed in his interrogation report that this was indeed, the story given him by Truly:Mr. Truly had told me that one of the police officers had stopped this man immediately after the shooting somewhere near the back stairway, so I asked Oswald where he was when the police officer stopped him. He said he was on the second floor drinking a coca cola when the officer came in. I asked him why he left the building, and he said there was so much excitement he didn't think there would be any more work done that day, and that as this company wasn't particular about their hours, that they did not punch a clock, and that he thought it would be just as well that he left for the rest of the afternoon. What was situated "somewhere near the back stairway" on the 1st floor? A little store-room.

This story was put forward for one purpose: to establish Oswald's presence in the building during the time of the assassination. It therefore also provided an excuse to report him missing after he or Shelley had cleared Oswald with the cop at the front entrance who then allowed Oswald to leave after taking his name and address.

Ask yourself, as pointed out to me by Sean Murphy, why Truly's 1st FBI report makes a point of declaring he saw no one on the first floor? Why would THAT be important when no one on the first floor could have been a shooter? I can only think of two reasons: either to try and negate what Truly had told Fritz - or to try and negate what Oswald told his interrogators. Since Oswald however doesn't seem to have talked about an encounter with a cop at the front entrance until his last session on the Sunday, I have to plumb for it being negating Truly's story to Fritz.

STORY 2: Baker tells the truth about an encounter on an upper floor

Later in the day, Baker would have his affidavit taken in a little office room which was also holding Oswald while awaiting interrogation. His affidavit describes an encounter on the stairway of the 3rd or 4th floor. Despite Oswald sitting in the same small room, his affidavit makes no mention of Oswald and gives a physical description of a dark-haired 30 year old who is about 20 pounds heavier than Oswald and wearing a light colored jacket. This description is a much better fit for the person described by Arnold Rowland.

It was almost certainly the shooter. That he had only descended two floors by the time of this encounter explains the lack of evidence of exertion - and also Baker's interest in him. This was why Truly accompanied Baker - to make sure this person was not arrested.

Baker inadvertently confirmed the only actual encounter he and truly had was on the 4th floor when he told the WC that "it seemed to me like the next floor up [from the encounter] Mr. Truly said let's take the elevator."The elevator was on the 5th floor, so Baker is placing the incident one floor below that: the 4th floor - just as he said in his affidavit.

STORY 3: This has numerous versions, but basically...

The authorities had a major problem on their hands. They know Oswald can't be the shooter if he's on the first floor, thus Fritz' comment in the interrogation report that they disregarded Truly's advice that the encounter was on the first floor where Oswald was seen in a store-room because "THEIR INVESTIGATION" revealed it to have been in the 2nd floor lunch room. "Their investigation" is code for coming up with a version which would fly better, and also eliminate the actual encounter on the 4th floor with the real perp described by Baker.

They know Oswald had a coke, so they switch the little store-room on the first floor for the 2nd floor lunch room and get Baker on board with that version. Did this make Baker a bad person? Not really. Not in the context of Dallas circa '63. He probably believed Oswald was guilty and if switching his story helped convince everyone else, so be it. It was common practice, and probably not even thought of as "wrong" in the sense that he convinced himself it was serving justice.

Although he later fell into line with the official myth, Baker was a hero for running into that building. That he is now being accused of being involved in the plot on the basis that he had his gun drawn... well... what can be said about that kind of reasoning... from anyone else, I'd be dumb-founded. But from DSL, it is becoming the standard fare.

STORY 4: OSWALD'S ACTUAL ENCOUNTER WITH A COP: First floor entrance

As with the 4th floor encounter with the probable real sniper, and the first floor store-room version, this one was "disappeared". Fortunately, as with those other stories, this one could not be entirely wiped from all the records, Oswald's actual encounter with a cop was at the front entrance as he tried to leave. It was not with Baker. He was asked to step aside so that his details could be taken. Truly or Shelley confirmed he was an employee. He was allowed to leave: was the first to leave - thus his details ended up on top of the list provided to Revill. In typical Oswaldian style, he gave his name as Harvey Lee Oswald and his address as 605 Elsbeth (a variation on an old address). Did Oswald realize he needed to buy some time?

This encounter was recorded by the much maligned Holmes as being what Oswald said in response to his questioning. The fact that no one else mentioned it is only evidence that they knew it was poison. It is further supported by the initial report in the Sydney Morning Herald. Mr Lifton suggested this story would be untrustworthy unless it came under a byline. When told it did just that, Mr Lifton ignored that advice and continues to suggest the story had to be wrong. And lastly, it is supported by the recollections of James Jarman as recorded in his HSCA interview. Mr Lifton wants to dismiss this as hearsay forgetting completely that a lot of FBI reports are full of hearsay, as are the WC and HSCA records and interviews. In some legal settings, hearsay is allowed - otherwise the WC and HSCA were a gigantic waste of effort (well, to some extent, they were, but not for this reason). And the FBI may as well not have bothered interviewing anywhere near the numbers they did.

What are the odds that three very different sources - independent of each other, all come up with the same story? Unless that story was essentially true, I'd say the odds would be astronomical. [emphasis added by T. Graves]

Greg,

Good post. I really think you're on to something.

Regarding the little first floor storage room, the only one I can find is near the front door.

Would you please post a link to a floor plan showing the storage room you're talking about?

Thanks,

--Tommy

Edited August 23, 2012 by Thomas Graves

[Sean Murphy]

This small storage room was located right beside the domino room in the northeast corner of the first floor:

Worth bearing in mind also that a large open area containing stock (such as the sixth floor) was routinely referred to as "storage room".

[David Josephs]

Great stuff Greg....

The 4th & 5th floors are very interesting places...

Seems the passenger elevator at the front of the TSBD only went as high as the 4th floor...

This is the elevator Sawyer and two officers take sometime between 12:34 and 12:37

By this point then Baker and Truly have been in, up and down. People have been going in and out of the front and back doors....

Fake SS agents are encountered at the back door and a black man who had been there claims not to have seen anyone leave in direect conflict with other testimonies..

Greg - are you also saying that Fritz made up Oswald's response when he noted "claims 2nd floor Coke when off came in... to 1st floor had lunch"

and this happens in the first page of notes... from the 3:15 11/22 questioning

While at the same time Baker is writing up his affidavit.... how is it possible to have THAT affidavit in their hands and question him as if nothing was in conflict with it?

(By not showing or stating what was in the affidavit I assume)

Since these affidavits would not see the light of day (like the Boone and Weitzman ones) the story for the WC would be the story... Fritz wrote these notes from memory or at the time of the questioning? If from memory, the 2nd floor comment makes sense...

Representative BOGGS -Let me ask one other question. You later, when you recognized this man as Lee Oswald, is that right, saw pictures of him?

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. I had occasion to see him in the homicide office later that evening after we got through with Parkland Hospital and then Love Field and we went back to the City Hall and I went up there and made this affidavit.

Mr. BELIN - Now, you did see him later at the police station, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Was he wearing anything that looked like Exhibit 150 at the police station?

Mr. BAKER - He did have a brown-type shirt on that was out.

Mr. BELIN - Did it appear to be similar to any clothing you had seen when you saw him at the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. BAKER - I could have mistaken it for a jacket, but to my recollection it was a little colored jacket, that is all I can say.

Mr. DULLES - You saw Oswald later in the lineup or later

Mr. BAKER - I never did have a chance to see him in the lineup. I saw him when I went to give the affidavit, the statement that I saw him down there, of the actions of myself and Mr. Truly as we went into the building and on up what we are discussing now.

(At this point Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)

Mr. BELIN - Officer Baker

Mr. DULLES - I didn't get clearly in mind, I am trying to check up, as to whether you saw Oswald maybe in the same costume later in the day. Did you see Oswald later in the day of November 22d?

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. DULLES - Under what circumstances? Don't go into detail, I just want to tie up these two situations.

Mr. BAKER - As I was in the homicide office there writing this, giving this affidavit, I got hung in one of those little small offices back there, while the Secret Service took Mr. Oswald in there and questioned him and I couldn't get out by him while they were questioning him, and I did get to see him at that time.

Mr. DULLES - You saw him for a moment at that time?

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Officer Baker, you then left the second floor lunchroom with Mr. Truly, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER - That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN - How long did you stay in the lunchroom after Truly identified this person as being an employee?

Mr. BAKER - Just momentarily. As he said, "Yes, he works here," I turned and went on up the stairs

As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket

Mr. TRULY. I suppose I was up two or three steps before I realized the officer wasn't following me.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. TRULY. I came back to the second floor landing.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see?

Mr. TRULY. I heard some voices, or a voice, coming from the area of the lunchroom, or the inside vestibule, the area of 24.

Mr. BELIN. All right. And I see that there appears to be on the second floor diagram, a room marked lunchroom.

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. TRULY. I ran over and looked in this door No. 23.

Mr. BELIN. Through the glass, or was the door open?

Mr. TRULY. I don't know. I think I opened the door. I feel like I did. I don't remember.

Mr. BELIN. It could have been open or it could have been closed, you do not remember?

Mr. TRULY. The chances are it was closed.

Mr. BELIN. You thought you opened it?

Mr. TRULY. I think I opened it. I opened the door back and leaned in this way.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see?

Mr. TRULY. I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the lunch-room facing Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. BELIN. And where was Lee Harvey Oswald at the time you saw him?

Mr. TRULY. He was at the front of the lunchroom, not very far inside he was just inside the lunchroom door.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. TRULY. 2 or 3 feet, possibly.

Mr. BELIN. Could you put an "O" where you saw Lee Harvey Oswald?

All right.

You have put an "O" on Exhibit 497.

What did you see or hear the officer say or do?

Mr. TRULY. When I reached there, the officer had his gun pointing at Oswald. The officer turned this way and said, "This man work here?" And I said, "Yes."

Mr. BELIN. And then what happened?

Mr. TRULY. Then we left Lee Harvey Oswald immediately and continued to run up the stairways until we reached the fifth floor.

The avoidance of the entire episode is quite amazing really.... while this one thing is but a single detail it represents the entire case... The WC has in its hands evidence that directly conflicts with the testimony... and never bothers to investigate further... just like Sawyer and THIS MAN...

Mr. SAWYER. Immediately went into---well, talked to some of the officers around there who told me the story that they had thought some shots had come from one of the floors in the building, and I think the fifth floor was mentioned, but nobody seemed to know who the shots were directed at or what had actually happened, except there had been a shooting there at the time the President's motorcade had gone by.

And I went with a couple of officers and a man who I believed worked in the building. The elevator was just to the right of the main entrance, and we went to the top floor, which was pointed out to me by this other man as being the floor that we were talking about. We had talked about the fifth floor. And we went back to the storage area and looked around and didn't see anything.

Mr. BELIN. Now you took an elevator up, is that correct?

Mr. SAWYER. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. The route that you took to the elevator, you went to the front door?

Mr. SAWYER. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. SAWYER. We got into the elevator. We run into this man. (DJ: He later says the elevator was there when they got there... yet they still run into THIS MAN getting off the elevator with literally NO FOLLOW-UP QUESTIONS related to who that was and why Sawyer did not stop or recognize him)

Mr. BELIN. Well, when you say you got into the elevator, where was the elevator as you walked in the front door?

Mr. SAWYER. It was to the right.

Mr. BELIN. To the right?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Was it a freight elevator or a passenger elevator?

Mr. SAWYER. The best of my recollection, it was a passenger elevator.

Mr. BELIN. Did you push for the top button in that elevator?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, I don't know who pushed it, but we went up to the top floor.

Mr. BELIN. You went up to the top floor that the elevator would go to?

Mr. SAWYER. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. You got off, and were there officers there?

Mr. SAWYER. There was one or two other officers with me.

Mr. BELIN. Now when you got off, you say you went into the back there into a warehouse area?

Mr. SAWYER. Storage area; what appeared to be a storage area.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go into any place other than a warehouse or storage area?

Mr. SAWYER. No.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anything other than a warehouse or storage area there?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, to one side I could see an office over there with people in it. Some women that apparently were office workers.

Mr. BELIN. Now Inspector, what did you do then?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, I didn't see anything that was out of the ordinary, so I immediately came back downstairs to check the security on the building.

Mr. BELIN. When you say check the security on the building, what do you mean by that?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, to be sure it was covered off properly, and then posted two men on the front entrance with instructions not to let anyone in or out.

Mr. BELIN. What about the rear entrance?

Mr. SAWYER. We'll, I also had the sergeant go around and check to be sure that all of those were covered, although he told me that they were already covered. DJ: This I believe was Haygood

Mr. BELIN. When was the order given to cover the front entrance of the building?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, they had it covered when I got there. There were officers all around the front. The only thing I don't think had been done by the time I got there, was the instructions not to let anybody in or out.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now, did you give the instructions not to let anyone in or out?

Mr. SAWYER. I did.

Mr. BELIN. Did you give those instructions before or after you came down from the fourth floor or top floor?

Mr. SAWYER. After I got down.

Mr. BELIN. Would it be fair for me to assume then that you had not at least completely left your car by 12:34 p.m?

Mr. SAWYER. Correct.

Mr. BELIN. Then when you got to the Texas School Book Depository, well, you got out of the car and talked to some people or to some officers?

Mr. SAWYER. Officers.

Mr. BELIN. And then what did the officers tell you?

Mr. SAWYER. That their information was that the shots had come from the fifth floor of the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. BELIN. Did any officers give you any other information about the source of the shots other than the fact that it came from the Texas School Book Depository, at that particular time?

Mr. SAWYER. I can't say whether it was officers or who, but there was a reference also made to the overpass.

Mr. BELIN. All right, in any event--pardon me, do you have anything else to add?

Mr. SAWYER. Also, there was a broadcast here in the transcript about the railroad yard.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. SAWYER. And this could be part of what I was thinking about, or what I had heard, was this broadcast on the radio about the railroad yard.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? You went inside the building, is that correct?

Mr. SAWYER. We immediately went inside the building. I took--I believe Sgt. Harkness may have gone with me. I am not positive of that.

Mr. BELIN. Was the elevator on the first floor when you got there, or did you have to wait for it to come down?

Mr. SAWYER. Best of my recollection, it was there.

Mr. BELIN. You got to the elevator, went up, looked around back there. How long did you spend up there at the top floor that the elevator took you to?

Mr. SAWYER. Just took a quick look around and made sure there was nobody hiding on that floor. I doubt if it took over a minute at the most.

Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down?

Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down.

Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then you got down and what did you do?

Mr. SAWYER. I asked the Sergeant to doublecheck the security around the building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out.

Mr. BELIN. Now up to the time you did this, had anyone else sealed off the building, that you know of?

Mr. SAWYER. When I arrived, the sergeant told me he had the building sealed off. There were officers all around the building. To the best of my recollection, there was no officer actually stationed on the front door, at the front door. There was some on the sidewalk in front of the front door, and also, as far as I know, had no instructions been issued to anyone to let anybody in or out.

Mr. BELIN. So yours would have been the first instructions to stop traffic from coming in and out of the front door, am I correct in that?

Mr. SAWYER. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. All right, anybody that would have been seen leaving the building would have been stopped and interrogated by the officers that were there? Even before you instructed them?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes, because they were looking for something or anything, and I know that anybody coming out of the back doors, from what the Sergeant told me, they would have stopped them, too.

Mr. BELIN. What happened at the front door now. There were people standing. out on the area of the steps, were there not?

Mr. SAWYER. No. There were some people around, yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not any of those would have been stopped?

Mr. SAWYER. For sure, no; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. I have here a Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, which appears to be a transcript of a police radio log, and I notice that at 12:35 p.m., there is a call from 142 to 531. 531 is your station headquarters?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Do you want to read what you said?

Mr. HAYGOOD. "I talked to a guy at the scene who says the shots were fired from the Texas School Book Depository Building with the Hertz Rent A Car sign on top."

Mr. BELIN. Is that what you said?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Approximately. I don't recall the exact words.

Mr. BELIN. There was a response to you. What does it say there?

Mr. HAYGOOD. "Get his name, address, phone number and all information you can."

Mr. BELIN. Did you do that?

Mr. HAYGOOD. No, I never.

Mr. BELIN. What happened?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Because I was told to go to the School Book Depository Building. I instructed the three different people to come to the front of the School Book Depository Building and remain there until they were talked to.

Mr. BELIN. You took these people that you had with you?

Mr. HAYGOOD. I did not take them, no.

Mr. BELIN. You instructed them to go there?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. In front of the School Book Depository?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And remain there until someone talked to them?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Right.

Mr. BELIN. You don't know the names of these people?

Mr. HAYGOOD. No, I don't.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know who talked to thereat all?

Mr. HAYGOOD. No; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. HAYGOOD. At that time I went to the School Building at the rear location of it, which would be

Mr. BELIN. To the back door?

Mr. HAYGOOD. North side of it, yes.

Mr. BELIN. Where that door leads out there to the dock?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes; on the northeast corner there.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. HAYGOOD. At that time I talked to the colored male that was standing at the door and asked him how long he had been there, and he said he had been there some 5 minutes or so. And I asked him if anyone had came out that door, and he said that they had not.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember his name?

Mr. HAYGOOD. No; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. HAYGOOD. At that time, it was people, squads and all arriving at the scene, and I went on into the building, which they stayed outside, and helped them search the building.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mr. HAYGOOD. That is about all.

Mr. BELIN. Did you search the building on the sixth floor or not?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Were you there when they found the rifle?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Were you there when they found the shells?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you when the shells were found?

Mr. HAYGOOD. I was on the sixth floor when the shells were found. I was still on the sixth when they found the rifle on the fifth.

Mr. BELIN. On the fifth?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Sixth floor, rather, I am sorry.

Mr. BELIN. Where on the sixth floor were you when the shells were found?

Mr. HAYGOOD. I don't recall just exactly where it was at. It was on the floor though. It was just a big open floor. DJ: Does that sound more like the 5th or 6th floor? When we look at thephotos of the 6th floor, there are boxes everywhere.... http://www.history-m...Vol17_0115b.htm this is a diagram of the 5th floor... and photos of the 5th floor... http://www.history-m...Vol17_0116b.htm more open or less than the 6th... and would anyone describe the spots where the rifle and shells were found as "OPEN" ?

Mr. BELIN. Do you mean they were somewhere on that open floor?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Not sure that Harkness or Haygood went with Sawyer as their testimony does not give that impression - if it was neither of these men... WHO went to the 4th floor with Sawyer and who remained in the building while another went to the rear of the building?

Mr. BELIN - When you told Inspector Sawyer that you had a witness that said the shot came from the building, up to that particular moment, had the front part of the building been sealed off yet?

Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN - It had already been sealed off?

Mr. HARKNESS - There was two officers with Inspector Sawyer at the front.

Mr. BELIN - Were they stopping people from going in and out?

Mr. HARKNESS - I don't know.

Mr. BELIN - You don't know?

Mr. HARKNESS - No, sir; I don't know that, because I didn't go up and talk to them.

Mr. BELIN - Did you notice whether or not people were coming in and out of the building?

Mr. HARKNESS - No. I was interested in getting around to the back of the building to make sure it was.

Mr. BELIN - Then am I correct that your testimony is that you didn't notice whether people were coming in and out? Did you notice, or did you not notice whether people were coming out of the building at that time?

Mr. HARKNESS - Several officers at the area, and it was a lot of people around. I don't know whether they were going in or out or not. I couldn't say that.

Mr. BELIN - Then you went around to the back of the building?

Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Was anyone around in the back when you got there?

Mr. HARKNESS - There were some Secret Service agents there. I didn't get them identified. They told me they were Secret Service.

[Thomas Graves]

This small storage room was located right beside the domino room in the northeast corner of the first floor:

[...]

Sure would be nice to see a floor plan showing this storage room (if such a floor plan even exists).

--Tommy

Edited August 25, 2012 by Thomas Graves

[Mark Knight]

Tommy, are you familiar with CE 1061?

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce1061.jpg

[Thomas Graves]

This small storage room was located right beside the domino room in the northeast corner of the first floor:

[...]

Sure would be nice to see a floor plan showing this storage room (if such a floor plan even exists).

--Tommy

Was this photograph of the (Old) Voucher(s) and (Customer's) Sales Slips Storage Room taken from inside the Domino Room? If so, this door doesn't show up on the floor plan.

--Tommy

Edited August 26, 2012 by Thomas Graves

[B. A. Copeland]

This is amazing Greg, thanks.