Robert Howard Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 This may or may not be new information but the URL below leads to the obit for Jack Edwin Dougherty who is not exactly an obscure TSBD employee, at least in 2011 on the Forum http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=Dougherty&GSfn=Jack+&GSbyrel=all&GSdyrel=all&GSst=46&GScntry=4&GSob=n&GRid=67466549&df=all& Jack E. Dougherty Born: Aug. 12, 1923 Dallas Dallas County Texas, USA Death: Dec. 29, 1994 Dallas Dallas County Texas, USA Family links: Parents: Redfern C Dougherty (1897 - 1978) Mary Kriese Dougherty (1899 - 1993) Burial: Calvary Hill Cemetery Dallas Dallas County Texas, USA Plot: Section L Created by: RC Karnes Record added: Mar 26, 2011 Find A Grave Memorial# 67466549 Here is his maryferrell.org bio page for confirmation purposes http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/marysdb/showRec.do?id=3407 If I were a rich man, I would hire a fulltime genealogist to look into the whole same last name phenomenom and try to get that whole dynamic covered, but I am like a lot of people in 2011, the moneytree has been shaken pretty good...lol I suppose this is more for Richard Gilbride's edification but hopefully we are all trying to assimilate as much as possible. I also have run across something that could be really important, [and believe me, when I say that it could be important it is because I try to overlook nothing.....and I eat, breathe and drink this stuff] so the word could is written for a reason, I don't like to generate interest in roads to nowhere, but I also don't have time to research every jot and tittle of the assassination but I ran across this awhile back and am sort of stumped as to whether there is more to this incident than what is written, if not or if it could be a clue to some sort of "fallback plan" in case Ruby was foiled trying to shoot Oswald. The relationship is the same dynamic of a "running man" after the shooting, in this case after Ruby shot Oswald; However, it may be something that happened exactly as it is stated. GAFFNEY, WILLIAM FRANK Sources: CE 2003, p. 366; CE 2249 Mary's Comments: 31-year-old black male arrested running from City Hall after the shooting of LHO. Worked for Cockrell & Winniford, 2712 Live Oak, Dallas, TX (214) TA 4-6741. http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=1141&relPageId=178 So the story is Gaffney, 3132 Morgan, was sightseeing on the first floor when, after Ruby shot Oswald, Sergeant J.P. Everett looks up and sees Gaffney run towards the Harwood Street exit. At which point he was placed under "temporary detention,"after being chased down by Everett and Officer Putnam and Officer R. T. Davis. So, I understand the dynamics of being African-American in Dallas in 1963, but he was the only guy that ran. There is something about this that makes me wonder if there is more to it than what transpired according to the document. I realize I am putting myself on the line here sort of, but I would rather be wrong, than have someone ask me "why didn't you say something and have to say...because you didn't ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dolva Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 Can he be seen taking off in one of the films. Anyway, he saw reason to run. What he saw, I don't know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Lane Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 This may or may not be new information but the URL below leads to the obit for Jack Edwin Dougherty who is not exactly an obscure TSBD employee, at least in 2011 on the Forum ....Jack E. Dougherty Born: Aug. 12, 1923 Dallas Dallas County Texas, USA Death: Dec. 29, 1994 Dallas Dallas County Texas, USA Family links: Parents: Redfern C Dougherty (1897 - 1978) Mary Kriese Dougherty (1899 - 1993) Burial: Calvary Hill Cemetery Dallas Dallas County Texas, USA Plot: Section L Created by: RC Karnes Record added: Mar 26, 2011 Find A Grave Memorial# 67466549 Here is his maryferrell.org bio page for confirmation purposes http://www.maryferre...wRec.do?id=3407 .... The MFF link notes, "In 1963, [Jack] lived with his parents, Redfern C. and Mary K. Dougherty. The older couple owned the home at 1827 S. Marsalis, and they were retired. In 1992, the phone is still in the Dallas phone directory listed to the older Dougherty with the same phone number but at a different address, 330 W. Pembroke Ave." We note from the gravesite information that his father died in 1978 at age 81, and his mother died in 1993 at age 94, so while the phone number was in the father's name, he clearly didn't answer it, tho' it was by no means unusual for married folks from that era to use the husband's name exclusively (witness, for example, Geraldean Reid's self-identification under oath before the WC as "Mrs. Robert A. Reid" @ 3H270), so between that and the 1992 information, we can safely presume that it was Mary Dougherty who was living at 330 W. Pembroke ... or, at approximately age 69, it could have been Jack, although I think it would have been more unusual for him to have used his father's name for a phone listing. That address happens to be to a Catholic assisted-living home, St. Joseph's Residence (www.stjr.org/contactus.html, which also lists Sister Adelaide Bocanegra as the administrator, phone 214-948-3597). It seems pretty clear that the gravesite is indeed that of Jack and his parents, particularly considering that he continued to live with his parents well into his adulthood and might well have been buried with them as a consequence. The question (for what little value it would have) would seem to be whether or how Jack stayed in contact with the outside world when his parents' phone was transferred to St. Joseph's, and what became of the property on Marsalis after Jack's demise (Robert, the Dallas Appraisal District or Dallas County real estate records would likely have information about this if you're inclined to search it out, if only out of curiosity). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 (edited) This may or may not be new information but the URL below leads to the obit for Jack Edwin Dougherty who is not exactly an obscure TSBD employee, at least in 2011 on the Forum http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=Dougherty&GSfn=Jack+&GSbyrel=all&GSdyrel=all&GSst=46&GScntry=4&GSob=n&GRid=67466549&df=all& Jack E. Dougherty Born: Aug. 12, 1923 Dallas Dallas County Texas, USA Death: Dec. 29, 1994 Dallas Dallas County Texas, USA Family links: Parents: Redfern C Dougherty (1897 - 1978) Mary Kriese Dougherty (1899 - 1993) Burial: Calvary Hill Cemetery Dallas Dallas County Texas, USA Plot: Section L Created by: RC Karnes Record added: Mar 26, 2011 Find A Grave Memorial# 67466549 Here is his maryferrell.org bio page for confirmation purposes http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/marysdb/showRec.do?id=3407 If I were a rich man, I would hire a fulltime genealogist to look into the whole same last name phenomenom and try to get that whole dynamic covered, but I am like a lot of people in 2011, the moneytree has been shaken pretty good...lol [...]] bump Edited December 30, 2011 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 (edited) This may or may not be new information but the URL below leads to the obit for Jack Edwin Dougherty who is not exactly an obscure TSBD employee, at least in 2011 on the Forum ....Jack E. Dougherty Born: Aug. 12, 1923 Dallas Dallas County Texas, USA Death: Dec. 29, 1994 Dallas Dallas County Texas, USA Family links: Parents: Redfern C Dougherty (1897 - 1978) Mary Kriese Dougherty (1899 - 1993) Burial: Calvary Hill Cemetery Dallas Dallas County Texas, USA Plot: Section L Created by: RC Karnes Record added: Mar 26, 2011 Find A Grave Memorial# 67466549 Here is his maryferrell.org bio page for confirmation purposes http://www.maryferre...wRec.do?id=3407 .... The MFF link notes, "In 1963, [Jack] lived with his parents, Redfern C. and Mary K. Dougherty. The older couple owned the home at 1827 S. Marsalis, and they were retired. In 1992, the phone is still in the Dallas phone directory listed to the older Dougherty with the same phone number but at a different address, 330 W. Pembroke Ave." We note from the gravesite information that his father died in 1978 at age 81, and his mother died in 1993 at age 94, so while the phone number was in the father's name, he clearly didn't answer it, tho' it was by no means unusual for married folks from that era to use the husband's name exclusively (witness, for example, Geraldean Reid's self-identification under oath before the WC as "Mrs. Robert A. Reid" @ 3H270), so between that and the 1992 information, we can safely presume that it was Mary Dougherty who was living at 330 W. Pembroke ... or, at approximately age 69, it could have been Jack, although I think it would have been more unusual for him to have used his father's name for a phone listing. That address happens to be to a Catholic assisted-living home, St. Joseph's Residence (www.stjr.org/contactus.html, which also lists Sister Adelaide Bocanegra as the administrator, phone 214-948-3597). It seems pretty clear that the gravesite is indeed that of Jack and his parents, particularly considering that he continued to live with his parents well into his adulthood and might well have been buried with them as a consequence. The question (for what little value it would have) would seem to be whether or how Jack stayed in contact with the outside world when his parents' phone was transferred to St. Joseph's, and what became of the property on Marsalis after Jack's demise (Robert, the Dallas Appraisal District or Dallas County real estate records would likely have information about this if you're inclined to search it out, if only out of curiosity). AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT THE STATE OF TEXAS COUNTY OF DALLAS BEFORE ME, Patsy Collins, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared Jack E. Dougherty w/m/40, 1827 So. Marsalis WH-6-7170 who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says: I am employed at the Texas School Book Depository at 411 Elm and have been since 1952. I was working on the sixth floor today. There was [sic] six of us working on the floor. The others were Bill Lovelady, William Shelby, Danny Arce, Bonnie Williams, and Charles Givens. I went back to work at 12:45 p.m. I had already gone back to work and I gone down on the fifth [sic] to get some stock when I heard a shot. It sounded like it was coming from inside the building, but I couldn't tell from where. I went down on the first floor, and asked a man named Eddie Piper if he had heard anything and he said yes, that he had heard three shots. I then went back on the sixth floor. I didn't see anyone on the floor except the people I named. There was another employee that is named Lee Oswald that I saw on the sixth floor. He works all over the building, but I saw him on the sixth floor shortly before noon. I didn't see Oswald in the building after lunch. /s/ Jack E. Dougherty SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN BEFORE ME THIS 22 DAY OF November A.D. 1963 /s/ Patsy Collins Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas Analyzing the syntax and grammar used by Jack Dougherty in his affidavit, one realizes that it is very good, better than most Americans in fact. Unless he was "helped" with it, it would appear that he wasn't the low-intelligence guy he has been portrayed as being. Must have been "helped" with it, right? Actually, I don't think so. He did make one grammatical mistake when he used the singular form of the infinitive verb "to be" in the past tense (i.e. "was") when he should have used the plural form (i.e. "were"), thereby indicating that it really was Dougherty who spoke these words instead of some highly-educated "helper". --Tommy Edited December 30, 2011 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 (edited) ... I could well imagine Piper at his age, being bent over with the physical exertion. It now seems likely he ran straight past the wrapping table and out that side loading dock. Oh, puh-LEEZE, Greg! Eddie Piper was 55. You're 53. Are YOU anywhere close to describing yourself that way?!? Are YOU "elderly?" I didn't think so. Again you twist my words. I said "at his age" What was his age? MId '50s? Yes, it was, so that was the age I was referring to. I made no attempt to describe him as "elderly". Please desist from this nonsense. Could I run full steam down 6 flights of stairs and across a grassy slope, probably slippery from morning rain without getting breathless? I don't think I could these days, and I'd suggest the average guy in his 50s couldn't either. But there is another possibility: he wad ducking to make himself as small a target as possible... worried that the sniper might take a potshot at him. Hard to miss him in those bright colors! Landis noticed this man by the way, because he was obviously reacting quite differently to everyone else.... I just realized I did in fact, describe Rowland's man as "elderly" in post #4 in reply to Pat. I don't recall why I used that particular term, unless trying to describe him through the eyes of a Rowland ( a teenager), or whether I just misspoke in trying to distinguish him from being "young". Bottom line: I agree calling Piper "elderly" is not entirely accurate, and certainly did not call him, or mean to imply that in the post you've replied to. In relation to Landis' observations, this is the description I've referred to before of the flight in fright of the witness... I apologize in advance for any sensitivities involved, but believe it best to quote without change... "Waldo stated that the source said 'when I saw this boy he was the scaredest n I ever saw. All you could see were the whites of his eyes.' Waldo stated that according to his source, the witness stated when he fled the Texas School Book Depository, he surrendered to the Special Service because that branch of the Police Department had picked him up on crap shooting charges in the past. According to Waldo, the source stated that the witness made the statement 'man, you don't know how fast is fast unless you saw me run', referring to his exit from the TSBD." We know no such person ran out the front door. Which leaves the side loading dock - the direction in which Piper said he ran. Now compare to the relevant part of SA Landis' observation: "He thought that the shot had come from somewhere toward the front right-hand side of the road. When he looked in that direction, he saw the only person he can recall seeing clearly who was a Negro male in light green slacks and a beige colored shirt running from Landis left to right, up the slope, across the grass, along the sidewalk, bending over while running. Landis started to point towards him, but didn't notice anything in his hands..." I ask again: does the direction in which this fellow is running get him to the location of "Special Services" (I'm not sure if it was in the same location as DPD HQ). Rowland's description: Mr. ROWLAND - He was very thin, an elderly gentleman, bald or practically bald, very thin hair if he wasn't bald. Had on a plaid shirt. I think it was red and green, very bright color, that is why I remember it. Mr. SPECTER - Can you give us an estimate as to age? Mr. ROWLAND - Fifty; possibly 55 or 60. Mr. SPECTER - Can you give us an estimate as to height? Mr. ROWLAND - 5'8", 5'10", in that neighborhood. He was very slender, very thin. Mr. SPECTER - Can you give us a more definite description as to complexion? Mr. ROWLAND - Very dark or fairly dark, not real dark compared to some Negroes, but fairly dark. Seemed like his face was either--I can't recall detail but it was either very wrinkled or marked in some way. Beige shirt and light green slacks (Landis) VS plaid shirt and bright colors, possibly red and green (Rowland). Piper denied owning or wearing a green and red shirt ON THAT DAY [Nov 22] - which sounds like CYA in case his wardrobe got searched he could claim he got the shirt AFTER that day. FBI description of Piper: Born: Jan 23, 1908. Height: 5' 10" Weight: 140 Hair: gray Eyes: brown Build: slender Facial characteristics: wears moustache; no scars or marks visible FBI photo of Piper http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/gallery/ASSASSIONATION/JFK-WITNESSES-SUSPECTS/Front-view-of-eddie-Piper-pic_9.htm The purpose of the FBI interview and photos - which also applied to West - was to determine if either may have been Rowland's man - yet there is no evidence that the photos were ever shown to Rowland. If they had been, and Rowland could not identify his man from them, that report would have been given prominence. I submit again that Rowland DID see a Black gentleman on the 6th floor aged in his 50s - that this man was Eddie Piper - that Piper ran downstairs and out the loading dock in terror about the time of the assassination and headed to Special Services due to knowing them from being busted gambling. He was held overnight with nothing released officially about him save that initial report published Nov 24 concerning Oswald being escorted up by a "Negro" porter, who then returned to the 1st floor to watch the motorcade: this, nothing more than the outline of the cover story formulated after it was ordered that Oswald would take the fall alone. Whoever formulated this cover story and worded Piper's statement made one mistake: they were unaware that the motorcade was not running on time (for the amended timetable) and that it did not pass the TSBD at 12:25 as it should have, but about 5 minutes later. The gaffe was realized sometime between then and the time of Piper's testimony - with Piper given no questions on why he was now saying 12:27 to 12:30 instead of the 12:25 he originally claimed on two separate occasions. [Emphasis added by T. Graves] Greg, Did you ever find out whether or not Piper had ever been arrested on gambling charges? --Tommy Edited January 1, 2012 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Parker Posted January 1, 2012 Author Share Posted January 1, 2012 Greg, Did you ever find out whether or not Piper had ever been arrested on gambling charges? --Tommy Unfortunately I don't have the resources or contacts to get that information. It certainly would be good to know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Lane Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) ... I am employed at the Texas School Book Depository at 411 Elm and have been since 1952. I was working on the sixth floor today. There was [sic] six of us working on the floor. The others were Bill Lovelady, William Shelby, Danny Arce, Bonnie Williams, and Charles Givens. I went back to work at 12:45 p.m. I had already gone back to work and I gone down on the fifth [sic] to get some stock when I heard a shot. It sounded like it was coming from inside the building, but I couldn't tell from where. I went down on the first floor, and asked a man named Eddie Piper if he had heard anything and he said yes, that he had heard three shots. I then went back on the sixth floor. I didn't see anyone on the floor except the people I named. There was another employee that is named Lee Oswald that I saw on the sixth floor. He works all over the building, but I saw him on the sixth floor shortly before noon. I didn't see Oswald in the building after lunch. /s/ Jack E. Dougherty Analyzing the syntax and grammar used by Jack Dougherty in his affidavit, one realizes that it is very good, better than most Americans in fact. Unless he was "helped" with it, it would appear that he wasn't the low-intelligence guy he has been portrayed as being. Must have been "helped" with it, right? Actually, I don't think so. He did make one grammatical mistake when he used the singular form of the infinitive verb "to be" in the past tense (i.e. "was") when he should have used the plural form (i.e. "were"), thereby indicating that it really was Dougherty who spoke these words instead of some highly-educated "helper". Idiomatic. You'd be surprised at how many Texans with decent educations do the same thing. Police only recently have been required to have some college education. It's not indicative of anything of the sort. It's equally possible that an officer might have gotten frustrated and sent Jack off to do his own affidavit, but from what I've been able to gather over the years, LEOs took the statements and wrote them down for later typing. Check the Dallas City Archives online for the original handwritten copies. Edited January 2, 2012 by Duke Lane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) ... I am employed at the Texas School Book Depository at 411 Elm and have been since 1952. I was working on the sixth floor today. There was [sic] six of us working on the floor. The others were Bill Lovelady, William Shelby, Danny Arce, Bonnie Williams, and Charles Givens. I went back to work at 12:45 p.m. I had already gone back to work and I gone down on the fifth [sic] to get some stock when I heard a shot. It sounded like it was coming from inside the building, but I couldn't tell from where. I went down on the first floor, and asked a man named Eddie Piper if he had heard anything and he said yes, that he had heard three shots. I then went back on the sixth floor. I didn't see anyone on the floor except the people I named. There was another employee that [sic] is named Lee Oswald that I saw on the sixth floor. He works all over the building, but I saw him on the sixth floor shortly before noon. I didn't see Oswald in the building after lunch. /s/ Jack E. Dougherty Analyzing the syntax and grammar used by Jack Dougherty in his affidavit, one realizes that it is very good, better than most Americans in fact. Unless he was "helped" with it, it would appear that he wasn't the low-intelligence guy he has been portrayed as being. Must have been "helped" with it, right? Actually, I don't think so. He did make one grammatical mistake when he used the singular form of the infinitive verb "to be" in the past tense (i.e. "was") when he should have used the plural form (i.e. "were"), thereby indicating that it really was Dougherty who spoke these words instead of some highly-educated "helper". Idiomatic. You'd be surprised at how many Texans with decent educations do the same thing. Police only recently have been required to have some college education. It's not indicative of anything of the sort. It's equally possible that an officer might have gotten frustrated and sent Jack off to do his own affidavit, but from what I've been able to gather over the years, LEOs took the statements and wrote them down for later typing. Check the Dallas City Archives online for the original handwritten copies. Duke, I've heard that Dougherty was "dumb like a fox". The fact that he was quite intelligent is evidenced by the fact that his English in the affidavit was pretty dang good. Nearly perfect, in fact. IMHO, his English was much better than that of the average American. For example, he used the past perfect tense perfectly and appropriately for the events-in-time he was talking about). Many Americans would have used the past simple tense (aka the simple past tense) instead, but the past perfect tense was "more correct" and, since that's what he used, well, I guess that I was impressed by it. So Duke, thank you for verifying what I said! Dougherty's English was very good. Much better than one would expect from a guy who after the assassination was characterized as of being of below-average intelligence. (Whew! Try teaching that sentence in the Czech Republic for seven years! ) Accepting your proposition that Dougherty's use of "was" rather than "were" in the third sentence of the affidavit wasn't a mistake per se, but just a case of using a good old Texan "Idïomatic" grammar/syntax, I gotta mention that I've just noticed that he incorrectly used "that" instead of "who" in the third sentence from the end. So maybe he was an idiot, after all. JUST KIDDING! Hey! Maybe the useage of "that" in that sentence was just "Texas Idiomatic", as well. But I don't think so. But (yeah, I know, you should never start a sentence with "BUT") I'm actually glad to see that Jack made that pronoun mistake because it tends to indicate that he, rather than some clerk with a "decent education", wrote the affidavit. That was a point I was originally trying to make with Dougherty's use of "was" instead of "were" in his third sentence, Duke. Other than that teensy-weensie little "that"-versus-"who"-mistake, his English was perfect! BUT now I halfway expect you to say that Dougherty's incorrect use of pronouns was a case of good old "Texas Idiomatic", as well, and that I'd be "surprised at how many Texans with decent educations do the same thing". Do they really use the impersonal pronoun "that" when they should use the personal pronoun "who"? If, that's the case, Duke, then I gotta ask ya: why do Texans even take English in primary school and secondary school? Or do they? --Tommy P.S. Evidently Jack was a very good speller, as well. Me? I'm only fair to middlin'. By the way, I'm happy to report that we aren't expecting any Blue Northers here in sunny La Jolla, California in the near future. Of course, one doesn't exactly expect a Blue Norther, does one? They're unanticipated "by definition", I reckon. Edited January 3, 2012 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 (edited) ... I am employed at the Texas School Book Depository at 411 Elm and have been since 1952. I was working on the sixth floor today. There was [sic] six of us working on the floor. The others were Bill Lovelady, William Shelby, Danny Arce, Bonnie Williams, and Charles Givens. I went back to work at 12:45 p.m. I had already gone back to work and I gone down on the fifth [sic] to get some stock when I heard a shot. It sounded like it was coming from inside the building, but I couldn't tell from where. I went down on the first floor, and asked a man named Eddie Piper if he had heard anything and he said yes, that he had heard three shots. I then went back on the sixth floor. I didn't see anyone on the floor except the people I named. There was another employee that [sic] is named Lee Oswald that I saw on the sixth floor. He works all over the building, but I saw him on the sixth floor shortly before noon. I didn't see Oswald in the building after lunch. /s/ Jack E. Dougherty [ good grammar emphasis added by T. Graves ] Analyzing the syntax and grammar used by Jack Dougherty in his affidavit, one realizes that it is very good, better than most Americans in fact. Unless he was "helped" with it, it would appear that he wasn't the low-intelligence guy he has been portrayed as being. Must have been "helped" with it, right? Actually, I don't think so. He did make one grammatical mistake when he used the singular form of the infinitive verb "to be" in the past tense (i.e. "was") when he should have used the plural form (i.e. "were"), thereby indicating that it really was Dougherty who spoke these words instead of some highly-educated "helper". Idiomatic. You'd be surprised at how many Texans with decent educations do the same thing. Police only recently have been required to have some college education. It's not indicative of anything of the sort. It's equally possible that an officer might have gotten frustrated and sent Jack off to do his own affidavit, but from what I've been able to gather over the years, LEOs took the statements and wrote them down for later typing. Check the Dallas City Archives online for the original handwritten copies. Duke, I've heard that Dougherty was "dumb like a fox". The fact that he was quite intelligent is evidenced by the fact that his English in the affidavit was pretty dang good. Nearly perfect, in fact. IMHO, his English was much better than that of the average American. For example, he used the past perfect tense perfectly and appropriately for the events-in-time he was talking about). Many Americans would have used the past simple tense (aka the simple past tense) instead, but the past perfect tense was "more correct" and, since that's what he used, well, I guess that I was impressed by it. So Duke, thank you for verifying what I said! Dougherty's English was very good. Much better than one would expect from a guy who after the assassination was characterized as being of below-average intelligence. (Whew! Try teaching that sentence in the Czech Republic for seven years! ) Accepting your proposition that Dougherty's use of "was" rather than "were" in the third sentence of the affidavit wasn't a mistake per se, but just a case of using a good old Texan "Idïomatic" grammar/syntax, I gotta mention that I've just noticed that he incorrectly used "that" instead of "who" in the third sentence from the end. So maybe he was an idiot, after all. JUST KIDDING! Hey! Maybe his using "that" in that sentence rather than "who" is just another example of correct "Texan Idiomatic". But I don't think so. But (yeah, I know, you should never start a sentence with "BUT") I'm actually glad to see that Jack made that pronoun mistake because it tends to indicate that he, rather than some clerk with a "decent education", wrote the affidavit. That was a point I was originally trying to make with Dougherty's use of "was" instead of "were" in his third sentence, Duke. Other than that teensy-weensie little "that"-versus-"who"-mistake, his English was perfect! BUT now I halfway expect you to say that Dougherty's incorrect use of pronouns was a case of good old "Texas Idiomatic", as well, and that I'd be "surprised at how many Texans with decent educations do the same thing". Do they really use the impersonal pronoun "that" when they should use the personal pronoun "who"? If, that's the case, Duke, then I gotta ask ya: why do Texans even take English in primary school and secondary school? Or do they? --Tommy P.S. Evidently Jack was a very good speller, as well. Me? I'm only fair to middling. By the way, I'm happy to report that we aren't expecting any Blue Northers here in sunny La Jolla, California in the near future. Of course, one doesn't exactly expect a Blue Norther, does one? They're unanticipated "by definition", I reckon. bump Edited January 3, 2012 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Lane Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Tommy, I didn't "verify" what you'd said, don't play word games; I merely said that the English used could have been - and most likely was - a cop's, and that the idiomatic "mistakes" could as easily have been attributed to someone with an education and/or otherwise "normal" intelligence as to Jack. There is nothing in the affidavit that reflects on Jack Dougherty or his intelligence unless Jack Dougherty wrote it AND wrote it exactly the way it was typed. You're forming a supposition (assumption?) that he was more intelligent than he was given credit for based on the reasonably good grammar used, which you attribute to Jack based upon the "mistakes" he made: "he used good grammar so it proves he was intelligent, and I know it was him using it because he also used bad grammar. He's smart because he shows signs of also being dumb." As I said, check the Dallas City Archives online for the original handwritten copies. The English may be "very good," but nothing in the typed affidavit makes it Dougherty's other than pure conjecture. I'll get a more first-hand opinion when I think of it. Incidentally, it is not a question of him or anyone else being "helped," but rather of efficiency in processing. I think you'll also find that few if any of the affiants actually "appeared (in person) before" Patsy Collins, and maybe that she didn't even type all of them up afterward. Again, I'll get a more first-hand opinion when I think of it. As to "that" instead of "who" (or "whom"), yeah, I'm afraid so: "Are y'all fixin-ta go out with your friends that's got a car?" A-yup, I'm tellin' ya! Rankles the hell out of me, but what can ya do? Listen and translate on the fly. I have no idea what Texans are taught in school - much less what they actually learn! - since I didn't go to Texas schools. You'd only know that for sure if you spent some time in Texas ... by which I mean more than just a few days or weeks. You might find ESL an easier subject to teach to Czechs than to Texans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 (edited) [...] You're forming a supposition (assumption?) that he was more intelligent than he was given credit for based on the reasonably good grammar used... Yes, Duke, I know what "supposition" means. Congratulations; evidently you do, too! Dougherty's grammar was much better than "reasonably good", especially after taking into consideration that his use of "was" and "that" instead of "were" and "who", respectively, was perfectly acceptable by Texas standards (I got me a "decent education" one year at TCU way back in 1967. Shoot fire, we even beat Texas at Austin that year.) ...which you attribute to Jack based upon the "mistakes" he made: "he used good grammar so it proves he was intelligent, and I know it was him using it because he also used bad grammar. He's smart because he shows signs of also being dumb." Hey, that's a good idea. I hadn't thought of that. Seriously. Maybe Jack intentionally made those two perfectly-acceptable-according-to-you "mistakes" so everybody would know that he'd written the affadavit all by himself. As I said, check the Dallas City Archives online for the original handwritten copies. The English may be "very good," but nothing in the typed affidavit makes it Dougherty's other than pure conjecture. I'll get a more first-hand opinion when I think of it. What in tarnation do you mean by, "I'll get a more first-hand opinion when I think of it"? Is that some kind of joke? (Bob Dylan - Desolation Row) Incidentally, it is not a question of him or anyone else being "helped," but rather of efficiency in processing. I think you'll also find that few if any of the affiants actually "appeared (in person) before" Patsy Collins, and maybe that she didn't even type all of them up afterward. Again, I'll get a more first-hand opinion when I think of it. Is that some kind of joke? Again? As to "that" instead of "who" (or "whom"), yeah, I'm afraid so: "Are y'all fixin-ta go out with your friends that's got a car?" A-yup, I'm tellin' ya! Rankles the hell out of me, but what can ya do? Listen and translate on the fly. I have no idea what Texans are taught in school - much less what they actually learn! - since I didn't go to Texas schools. OK, fair enough. You certainly sound like you know what you're a-talkin' about. As usual. You'd only know that for sure if you spent some time in Texas ... by which I mean more than just a few days or weeks. Well, I did manage to attend TCU in Fort Worth for more than just a few days or weeks way back in 1967. If I recollect properly, I was there for nine whole months! You might find ESL an easier subject to teach to Czechs than to Texans. Nah, Czechs are stubborn as mules, too. Set in their ways, so to speak. But instead of saying "Remember the Alamo!", they say "Remember Munich!" and "Another beer, please!" --Tommy P.S. So let me ask you, Duke. Do you think Dougherty was of below-average intelligence? Edited January 3, 2012 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Lane Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 (edited) Yes, Duke, I know what "supposition" means. Congratulations; evidently you do, too! OK, that's how you like to play it. I'm done here. Get back to me when you're sober. Edited January 4, 2012 by Duke Lane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 (edited) Yes, Duke, I know what "supposition" means. Congratulations; evidently you do, too! OK, that's how you like to play it. I'm done here. Get back to me when you're sober. Get back to you when I'm sober? Why the slanderous remark, Duke? Edited January 4, 2012 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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