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Witnesses who say a shot and smoke came from behind the picket fence


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#1 Duncan MacRae

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 01:42 PM




Edited by Duncan MacRae, 30 November 2011 - 01:45 PM.


#2 Ed LeDoux

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 10:48 AM

Thanks for those Duncan,

Josiah Thompson asked:
"I’ve read at some point or other that Dallas policemen who ran into the knoll area encountered railroad men who told them they saw smoke. We know that several men standing with S.M. Holland on the overpass saw smoke near the stockade fence. The fact that Dallas police officers submitted reports or said they encountered such individuals gives even more credence to their claims."

Bugliosi says in his deceptive tome Reclaiming History Page 894, per Monty Lutz, that if a modern rifle with smokeless ammunition was fired a small puff of grey smoke would be visible but only briefly and would dissipate very quickly, especially on a windy day such as it was.

Smokeless doesn't mean no smoke or zero smoke it means exactly what it states it smokes less.
Several of my friends are into muzzle loaders and they are quite accurate with them. These black powder weapons do belch smoke and that smoke does not as readily dissipate. But beyond that, Bug noted Sterling Mayfield Holland pointed to an area in front of the fence, some 11 feet, and under a tree or trees was where the smoke was. Bug discredits Holland because of where he said he saw the smoke and it wasn't near the top of the fence where it should be. Well Bug if its a windy day why would the smoke stay or hang near the top of the fence? The smoke would go where the air took it, Bug eats his own foot every time I read a page of his 'book'.

Because he wants you to focus on one person and then says Holland imagined it, its a psychological condition, etc.
I suppose he imagined his Sheriff's affidavit too.
I see, so this mental state of Holland must have spread at the speed of smoke to:

Cheryl McKinnon
Walter Winborn
Ed Johnson
Thomas Murphy
Austin Miller
James Leon Simmons
Richard C. Dodd
Clem Earl Johnson
Nolan H Potter
Ed Hoffman*
Wilfred or Wilfled Daetz*
Lee Bowers
Beverly Oliver
Royce Skelton
Senator Yarbrough comments on smelling gun smoke from the knoll, Patrolman Smith corroborates this smell, as does Mrs. Cabell and Congressman Ray Roberts.
So did DPD Earle V. Brown and Mrs. Donald Baker. Include Patrolman Joe Smith too to the others whom smelled lingering smell of gunpowder.
Weigman captured the smoke in one clear frame.

"The statements of these men were known to the Warren Commission. Eleven of them saw or smelled smoke in the moments after the shooting. That they not only saw smoke, but reported it to Sheriff's deputies charging into the railroad yards after the shooting, is confirmed, furthermore, by the reports on the shooting of Deputy Sheriffs A.D. McCurley (19H514) and J.L. Oxford (19H530). Although a few of those seeing smoke thought this smoke came from the motorcycles and/or the impact of a bullet on the street, such smoke was not noted by others closer to the action. As a result it seems possible that, in looking down on the action, they'd confused smoke in front of the limo with smoke behind it. In any event, the bulk of these witnesses thought they'd seen smoke, and thought it had come from the direction of the stockade fence or grassy knoll."
http://www.patspeer....ecesofthepuzzle

Now is it sheer coincidence that witnesses heard shots and observed smoke from the knoll, not if we add the SCENT of gunpowder.

Ed

Ref:
Contract on America: the Mafia murder of President John F. Kennedy- By David E. Scheim
Crossfire: The Plot That Killed Kennedy- By Jim Marrs
http://karws.gso.uri...from_front.html
*A contentious issue is if Hoffman was where he said he was. As is Wilfred or Wilfled Daetz' claim.
11-22-63 statements to the Dallas County Sheriff’s Department, 16H496
FBI reports
And Education Forum various threads.

Edited by Ed LeDoux, 10 December 2011 - 10:55 PM.


#3 Richard Hocking

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 03:55 PM



Bugliosi says in his deceptive tome Reclaiming History Page 894, per Monty Lutz, that if a modern rifle with smokeless ammunition was fired a small puff of grey smoke would be visible but only briefly and would dissipate very quickly, especially on a windy day such as it was.


Guys like Posner and Bugliosi claim that modern ammunition is smokeless and it would've been impossible for witnesses to have seen gunsmoke froma grassy knoll shooter. But according to the better qualified firearms experts for the HSCA this is not the case at all. The HSCA firearms panel concluded: "When a cartridge is fired, the propellant is not completely consumed or burned. Due to this, residue and smoke are emitted. During the test firing of CE 139 by the members of the panel, in October, some smoke was observed coming fom the muzzle of the weapon." (7HSCA373) In fact, according to Gary Mack, there is video evidence of this in the HSCA files. He wrote: "Ammunition does create some smoke, as evidenced by the videotape of the test shots fired in Dealey Plaza in 1978 from the TSBD and the grassy knoll. Oil in the barrell of a freshly cleaned rifle can add more smoke, and the angle of sunlight into the smoke and exhaust gasses can make the smoke seem more dense." (Fourth Decade, Vol.1 No. 1, Nov 1993)

As the HSCA summed it up: "There is no way of determining what type of ammunition was used in that 'gunfire' so that it can be stated conclusively whether the smoke seen by the witnesses is consistent with smoke produced by the type of ammunition used in any gunfire from the knoll. Nevertheless, a firearms expert engaged by the committee explained that irrespective of the exact type of ammuntion used,it would be possible for witnesses to have seen smoke if a gun had been fired from that area. According to the expert, both 'smokelss' and smoke producing ammunition may leave a trace of smoke that would be visible to the eye in sunlight. That is because even with smokeless ammunition, when the weapon is fired, nitrocellulose bases in the powder which are impregnated with nitroglycerin may give off smoke, albeit less smoke than black or smoke-producing ammunition. In addition, residue remaining in the weapon from previous firings, as well as cleaning solution which might have been used on the weapon, could cause even more smoke to be discharged in subsequent firings of the weapon." [my emphasis] (12HSCA24-5)


Still frame capture from video (below) of smoke from Charles Whitman's rifle, from the University of Texas Clock Tower in 1966.

Full Video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oK72g7mfvA&feature=related

#4 Ed LeDoux

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 06:30 PM

Excellent replies Martin and Richard!!

I wanted to add:

Deputy Sheriff LC Smith, AD McCurley, JL Oxford and Seymour Weitzman all reported smoke mentioned by bystanders coming from the fence area.

Ed

#5 Josiah Thompson

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 10:49 PM

This is a really useful thread in terms of what I'm working on just now. Back in the late 70s I gave many of my files to the AARC in Washington. A recent visit there turned up a 71 page transcript of an interview that Ed Kern and I did with Holland in November 1966. The interviews shown just let Holland tell his story. Kern and I cross-examined Holland's story as he was telling it. We asked all the questions a doubter might ask at the time. Holland came through with flying colors. His memory was sharp and he never changed his story from the very beginning. What is impressive is the convergence of witness testimony around this point. Holland and his coworkers hear a shot fired from near the corner of the stockade fence. Their attention is drawn to that area and they see smoke moving out away from the fence under the trees. Holland and two others then run around behind the fence to the location of the sound and the smoke. There they find new foot prints in the mud and on the fence and cigarette butts. Holland and his companions executed affidavits that afternoon and their stories have never changed. What is even more impressive is the fact that several Dallas cops submitted reports saying they had run in into railroad men there who said they saw smoke under the trees. Almost nowhere else in this case do we get such a convergence of evidence pointing to the same thing.

The footage of rifle shots fired from the tower on the University of Texas campus is new to me and really impressive. So much for the smokeless powder arguement.

JT




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvGX7k7J6aY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soqwKWDqRsg



#6 Ed LeDoux

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 02:47 AM

Your smoke-ing witnesses references:


Earle V. Brown
http://historymatter..._Vol6_0122a.htm

Royce Skelton
http://historymatter..._Vol6_0124a.htm
http://historymatter...Vol19_0257b.htm
http://www.history-m...tness/Index.htm

SM Holland
http://historymatter..._Vol6_0127a.htm
http://historymatter...Vol19_0249b.htm

Austin L. Miller
http://historymatter...Vol19_0252a.htm

Thomas Murphy
http://www.history-m...Map/MurphyT.htm
http://www.history-m...Vol22_0433a.htm

Walter Winborn
http://history-matte...Map/Winborn.htm

Ed Johnson
http://www.history-m...p/JohnsonEd.htm

James Simmons
http://history-matte...Map/Simmons.htm
http://www.history-m...Vol22_0432a.htm
Case Closed, Page 256)

Richard Dodd
http://history-matte...essMap/Dodd.htm
http://www.history-m...Vol22_0433a.htm

Clemon Earl Johnson
http://www.history-m...H22_CE_1423.pdf
http://www.history-m...Vol22_0433b.htm

Nolan Potter
http://www.history-m...Vol22_0432b.htm

Lee Bowers
http://www.history-m...tness/Index.htm

Senator Ralph Yarborourgh
http://www.history-m.../Yarborough.htm

LC Smith
http://www.history-m...Map/SmithLC.htm

A.D. McCurley
http://www.history-m...ap/McCurley.htm
19H514

JL Oxford
http://www.history-m...sMap/Oxford.htm
http://mcadams.posc....ony/oxford1.htm
Contract on America: the Mafia murder of President John F. Kennedy By David E. Scheim
page 23 note#52 page 407 19H516;CD5,cited in Thompson,p.119;19H514,530

Joe Smith
http://www.history-m...Map/SmithJM.htm
Contract on America: the Mafia murder of President John F. Kennedy By David E. Scheim
Page 22 note#26, page 406, HAH 5H 553-695 (House Assassination Hearings)

Seymour Weitzman
http://www.history-m...ap/Weitzman.htm
(24H228)
Contract on America: the Mafia murder of President John F. Kennedy By David E. Scheim
page 23 note#52 page 407 19H516;CD5,cited in Thompson,p.119;19H514,530
http://jfk.ci.dallas...04/0433-001.gif

Earle Brown
http://www.history-m...ssMap/Brown.htm

Mrs. Donald Sam Baker,nee Virgie Rackley
7 H 512+CD5, pp. 66-67 (Mrs. Donald Baker)
Gunpowder is smelled near the top of Elm Street.
Virgie Baker (Rackley) (on the north side of Elm Street, in front of the
Texas School Book Depository), November 24, 1963: “She recalled that
after the second shot she smelled gunsmoke but did not know where it
was coming from.” [FBI interview, CD5]
http://www.jfkassass...ic=1210.20;wap2


Cheryl McKinnon, a journalism student who was standing on the grassy
knoll, recalls her shock as three shots rang out from behind her....she has
written:" [We] turned in horror toward the back of the grassy knoll where it
seemed the sounds had originated. Puffs of white smoke still hung in the air
in small patches. But no one was visible."
'My Last Look at Mr. President'- San Diego Star News, Nov. 20 1983


see also 6 H 165+"POTP", p. 441 (Tom Dillard), 6 H 233 (DPD Earle Brown), 7 H 487+Capitol Records' "The Controversy"/ interview with Larry Schiller and Richard Lewis (Mrs. Elizabeth "Dearie" Cabell and re: Congressman Ray Roberts), 7 H 512+CD5, pp. 66-67 (Mrs. Donald Baker), 20 H 351 (Kantor re: Ralph Yarborough) + "The Death of a President", p. 156, "Murder From Within", page 65/ interview with Newcomb&Adams, "The Truth About The Assassination" by Charles Roberts, page 17, "Crossfire", p. 16 (all 4 re: Yarborough) , DPD B.J. Martin (see below), DPD Joe M. Smith (CD205, p. 310+"Texas Observer", 12/13/63+"Murder From Within", pages 65 and 92+"Conspiracy", p. 29), and Beverly Oliver ("Nightmare In Dallas", p. 122); ALSO: re: smoke---- 22 H 833 (James L. Simmons), "Rush To Judgment" film 1966 (Simmons, Richard Dodd, Sam Holland, and Lee Bowers), 22 H 834 (Nolan Potter), 22 H 836+"No More Si-lence" by Larry Sneed, pp.79-83 (Clemon Earl Johnson), 19 H 480, 514, 530 (Holland), 6 H 243 (Holland testimony), 19 H 485 (Austin Miller), Thomas Murphy: 5/6/66 interview ("Best Evidence", pages 16 and 723, and "Cover-Up" by Stewart Galanor, page 59), Walter Winborn: 3/17/65 and 5/5/66 interviews ("Best Evi-dence", pages 16 and 723, "Cover-Up" by Stewart Galanor, pages 59-60), and 6 H 230 (Frank Reilly), as well as Jean Hill ("Crossfire", p. 38), Beverly Oliver ("Night-mare In Dallas", p. 122), W.W. Mabra ("Crossfire", pp. 19-20, and "No More Si-lence", p.519 ), and Ed Hoffman ("JFK Breaking The Silence", p. 18). Also, see page 204 of Groden's "TKOAP" for a still photo from the Dave Weigman film which seems to show a puff of smoke lingering out from the trees on the knoll. In addii-ton, the Nix film, the John Martin film, and the Patsy Paschall film are all alleged to have evidence of smoke/ flashes on them. ];
http://www.assassina...2/v4n2part5.pdf
ASSASSINATION RESEARCH Vol.4 No. 2 © Copyright 2006 Vincent M. Palamara


Of note Weitzman said the footprints didn't make sense behind the fence because they were going different directions....Same as Holland. That equals corroboration by a LEO.

Ed

Edited by Ed LeDoux, 12 December 2011 - 03:49 AM.


#7 Richard Hocking

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 02:19 PM

Thank you for posting that, Richard. That's a very good find.There is quite a lot of very easily visible smoke there.

Excellent replies Martin and Richard!!I wanted to add:Deputy Sheriff LC Smith, AD McCurley, JL Oxford and Seymour Weitzman all reported smoke mentioned by bystanders coming from the fence area.Ed

Martin and Ed, you are welcome. There is some good info in this thread.Tosh Plumlee was another witness who said he smelled gunpowder, near the Triple Underpass by the South Knoll.Also, for more smoking-gun video, checkout the 1997 North Hollywood Shootout (below) on YouTube. Plenty of smoke in that one, beginning around the 10 second mark.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVeb_zZdliw&feature=related

... and around the 7 second mark in the Columbian Video below when the guy with the pistol starts shooting






Edit: Video added.


Edited by Richard Hocking, 11 December 2011 - 02:41 PM.


#8 Ed LeDoux

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 04:38 PM

Richard,

Thanks for posting a pistol and the long gun vids! Long barreled weapon decidedly pushed the smoke out away from the shooter similar to what was described by witnesses as seen near the fence.
A test at that location, when conditions are similar, most certainly would show gun smoke does not hang at the top of the fence but would move along with the wind and currents but also get swirled into eddies along the fence/bushes.

This would give the sun ample areas to reflect off it and for witnesses to see it.

Depending on the load, type of weapon, caliber, and as Martin says the cleanliness of or a well oiled barrel, among other factors, would make even more visible gases.

Ed

#9 Bernice Moore

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 05:19 PM

wiegman frame.smoke..b

#10 Bernice Moore

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 05:23 PM

wiegman frame.smoke..b


smoke gif by bill miller....b

ps i think this clip also goes with the gif, though not positive, but it decribes and gives information re the wind in Dealey Plaza and elsewhere...b

The picture you posted was one I had used to place those arrows on it. =
The wind direction was a general reference. As someone who claims to =
have been to the plaza - you must know that its like a huge bowl and the =
the wind gust and swirls. This must have been apparent when you watch =
the Zapruder film and see that Moorman's coat is hanging down and then =
suddenly blows open as the limo is moving past her.

As has been said several times now - Holland said the smoke came out =
through the two trees. Those would be the Hudson tree and the one just =
west of it. The fence and the trees would help work as a wind break ... =
common sense should give us that much of a clue for the smoke cloud was =
obviously still holding together enough that several witnesses both east =
and west of it had seen it. But once it drifted out past the protection =
of the trees it would have been swept up in the air flow and dissipated =
within a second or two depending on the wind gust level at that =
particular moment.=20
For further experience in how gun-smoke reacts to air flow - go to a =
trap shoot one night and watch the smoke under the lights. Once the =
smoke is seen under the light where it is then better illuminated, then =
watching how it dissipates can be quite educational. Then you can watch =
the little parts of it break up and how it will turn and spiral when the =
air starts to move it. Also, it should be said that gun-smoke is heavier =
than smoke lets say made by a fire. smoke by a fire 1: quickly rises =
because it hotter and lighter. Others who have been to shooting ranges =
have mirrored the same types of observations. More information coming =
from they may still be found in Lancer's archives.=20


there is also an older thread here on the forum........http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=9554Modified=200B8D1BEB68C701EE

http://educationforu...B8D1BEB68C701EE

b.

Edited by Bernice Moore, 11 December 2011 - 05:31 PM.


#11 Bernice Moore

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 05:34 PM


wiegman frame.smoke..b


smoke gif by bill miller....b

ps i think this clip also goes with the gif, though not positive, but it decribes and gives information re the wind in Dealey Plaza and elsewhere...b

The picture you posted was one I had used to place those arrows on it. =
The wind direction was a general reference. As someone who claims to =
have been to the plaza - you must know that its like a huge bowl and the =
the wind gust and swirls. This must have been apparent when you watch =
the Zapruder film and see that Moorman's coat is hanging down and then =
suddenly blows open as the limo is moving past her.

As has been said several times now - Holland said the smoke came out =
through the two trees. Those would be the Hudson tree and the one just =
west of it. The fence and the trees would help work as a wind break ... =
common sense should give us that much of a clue for the smoke cloud was =
obviously still holding together enough that several witnesses both east =
and west of it had seen it. But once it drifted out past the protection =
of the trees it would have been swept up in the air flow and dissipated =
within a second or two depending on the wind gust level at that =
particular moment.=20
For further experience in how gun-smoke reacts to air flow - go to a =
trap shoot one night and watch the smoke under the lights. Once the =
smoke is seen under the light where it is then better illuminated, then =
watching how it dissipates can be quite educational. Then you can watch =
the little parts of it break up and how it will turn and spiral when the =
air starts to move it. Also, it should be said that gun-smoke is heavier =
than smoke lets say made by a fire. smoke by a fire 1: quickly rises =
because it hotter and lighter. Others who have been to shooting ranges =
have mirrored the same types of observations. More information coming =
from they may still be found in Lancer's archives.=20


there is also an older thread here on the forum........http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=9554Modified=200B8D1BEB68C701EE

http://educationforu...B8D1BEB68C701EE

b.



here is another gif showing the smoke...b

#12 Ed LeDoux

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 03:56 AM

Martin, It does tend to add up to the impression that smoke, loud noise, and activity all took place behind the fence at that area at the time of shooting.

Thanks for the GIF and that bit of text Bernice, it was written by Bill I'm assuming.

Ed

Edited by Ed LeDoux, 12 December 2011 - 03:57 AM.


#13 Chris Davidson

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 06:28 PM

A different perspective.

http://i140.photobuc...wnerWiegman.gif

Wiegman over Towner.

Is the smoke in Wiegman actually the illuminated (orange) part of the tree seen in Towner, and not smoke at all ?

chris

#14 Ed LeDoux

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 07:19 PM

Thanks Chris,

Appears that may very well be the case.
I doubt it was captured on film now.

Ed

#15 Ron Ecker

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 07:07 AM

Article by smoke witness Cheryl McKinnon:

http://hobrad.angelf...om/mckinnon.jpg




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