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The Two Oswald Phenomena Explained


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#16 Kathleen Collins

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Posted 26 December 2011 - 04:25 AM

Robert,

there is no equivelence between Armstrong's Two Oswald Theory and the Lonsdale affair. Assuming the ID of dead people has long been an option for spies and criminals.

The de La Guardia twins were arrested and tried on drug trafficking charges - which may or may not have had a political motive concerning one of the other arrestees. I have searched for some indication that they were involved in spying and if so, that it entailed assuming each other's identity, and have found none. What exactly does Armstrong claim about them that he believes shows equivelence?

Bottom line -- if they were in fact spies, and if they did pretend to be each other as part of their spy activities -that at least makes some sense. They looked very much alike and shared personality traits and personal history. The theory that two unrelated boys - one noticably shorter and brighter than the other - were used in a lifelong project involving one pretending to be the other - and moreover, neccitating the use also of a doppleganger mother for the one dubbed "Harvey", is the stuff of z grade movies.

As for the files marked "Harvey Lee Oswald"... don't forget the one marked "Henry Oswald" -- maybe we should go for a triplet project? Or maybe there were other reasons for it. The work done by Bill Simpich may help clarify.

The Armstrong case for two Oswald's is a lot like the WC case for a lone assassin. It is built on often misunderstand, or deliberately reshaped circumstantial evidence - padded out with irrelvancies and bloated to a supersized burger for public consumption. Both can look appealing for those hungry enough for a solution. Just don't put the ingredients under a mcroscope!

The main difference is that whereas the WC never met an"Oswald sighting" it could accept - Armstrong never met one he could reject.

But both extremes were in support of a predetermined conclusion.


Greg, what about Armstrong's photos of 2 Lee Harvey Oswalds in school? (One was Harvey Lee Oswald.) And one of the Oswald's had a busted tooth in high school. And one had an inner ear surgery. Why did Marina walk up to the coffin before it was put on display and open one of his eyes to see the color? (Why else?)

I can't wait to read your book.

Kathy C

#17 Greg Parker

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Posted 26 December 2011 - 05:22 AM


Robert,

there is no equivelence between Armstrong's Two Oswald Theory and the Lonsdale affair. Assuming the ID of dead people has long been an option for spies and criminals.

The de La Guardia twins were arrested and tried on drug trafficking charges - which may or may not have had a political motive concerning one of the other arrestees. I have searched for some indication that they were involved in spying and if so, that it entailed assuming each other's identity, and have found none. What exactly does Armstrong claim about them that he believes shows equivelence?

Bottom line -- if they were in fact spies, and if they did pretend to be each other as part of their spy activities -that at least makes some sense. They looked very much alike and shared personality traits and personal history. The theory that two unrelated boys - one noticably shorter and brighter than the other - were used in a lifelong project involving one pretending to be the other - and moreover, neccitating the use also of a doppleganger mother for the one dubbed "Harvey", is the stuff of z grade movies.

As for the files marked "Harvey Lee Oswald"... don't forget the one marked "Henry Oswald" -- maybe we should go for a triplet project? Or maybe there were other reasons for it. The work done by Bill Simpich may help clarify.

The Armstrong case for two Oswald's is a lot like the WC case for a lone assassin. It is built on often misunderstand, or deliberately reshaped circumstantial evidence - padded out with irrelvancies and bloated to a supersized burger for public consumption. Both can look appealing for those hungry enough for a solution. Just don't put the ingredients under a mcroscope!

The main difference is that whereas the WC never met an"Oswald sighting" it could accept - Armstrong never met one he could reject.

But both extremes were in support of a predetermined conclusion.


Greg, what about Armstrong's photos of 2 Lee Harvey Oswalds in school? (One was Harvey Lee Oswald.) And one of the Oswald's had a busted tooth in high school. And one had an inner ear surgery. Why did Marina walk up to the coffin before it was put on display and open one of his eyes to see the color? (Why else?)

I can't wait to read your book.

Kathy C


Kathy,

Hate to be a nuisance, but could you provide a link to the two photos you're referring to and provide some information on who designated one as being "Harvey Lee Oswald"?

The busted tooth photo I'm aware of, but will need to dig up all the info on it and will get back to you.

First I've heard about Marina and the coffin. Where did that information come from? I gather you are guessing as to the reason she did it (assuming she did)

That suggests a further problem... in that you seem to be saying "Lee" and "Harvey" didn't even share the same eye color?

I can think of at least one other reason someone might open the eyes to look at them: superstition. There was a lot of that still around in the '60s, particularly outside of western culture. But even western culture carries on with very old superstitions involving the dead, including covering the face with a sheet. This was originally done because it was believed the spirit escaped through the mouth.



#18 Robert Howard

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Posted 26 December 2011 - 01:31 PM

I hear you - just don't forget to use your CIA filter.

I think DeMohrenschildt is our most solid link to Oswald. He shows a lot of insight into the man. Though some may disagree, I don't think he knew what he was babysitting Oswald for, though he knew there was something going on operationally. As for his politics, they were, I think, like Oswald's, complicated. And let's not forget that the CIA in those days was even siphoning funds through liberal groups in the name of anti-communism (something which got Allard Lowenstein into some trouble in later years)and so was not necessarily (in those pre-disclosure days) seen as a purely reactionary entity.

Greg, I hope you didn't misconstrue what my reasoning was in writing what I did. It was not intended as a rebuttal , or an attempt to argue against your views, but merely a collection of some of my observations on the whole affair.
And an atttempt, on my part to act on, from what I have kept up at your website, between the Dream Team;


The only way to develop a comprehensive outlook is to thrash matters out through going over the key points. Which can be very constructive in arriving at some type of consensus. I am glad to see the points you developed in response to what I wrote, and believe me, they are well taken.

Regarding your question, I tend to believe Oswald was dyslexic, I just don't see how he couldn't have been after looking at some of the arguments for that point. My only addition to anything in that area is the analysis by the soothsayers for both sides of the "Historic Diary" issue, made, I believe a pretty good case that parts of it seemed
to have been written in large chunks at a time, which, my take on that is that it reinforces the idea that Oswald
was a man on a mission for a branch of the U.S. government when he went to the Soviet Union, either ONI or the State
Department.
Best Wishes....Robert

#19 Len Colby

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Posted 26 December 2011 - 03:45 PM

GP: The Armstrong case for two Oswald's is a lot like the WC case for a lone assassin. It is built on often misunderstand, or deliberately reshaped circumstantial evidence - padded out with irrelvancies and bloated to a supersized burger for public consumption. Both can look appealing for those hungry enough for a solution. Just don't put the ingredients under a mcroscope!

The main difference is that whereas the WC never met an"Oswald sighting" it could accept - Armstrong never met one he could reject.

But both extremes were in support of a predetermined conclusion.


This is complete crap Greg and you know it.

Armstrong got on to his theory through Palmer McBride and then his interviews with the others in the astronomy club, and his tracking down of the opera dates.

To compare that to Warren's intimidation by LBJ--and indirectly the CIA--about fears of nuclear Holocaust is just ridiculous and dishonest.

In fact, your venom for Armstrong reminds me of you know who.

Just like its the opposite pole of your inexplicable attraction to Gilbride's goofiness.


The Two Oswalds theory is the dumbest assassination theory around SBT, JVB and film alteration pale by comparison. I surprised, but not very that DiEugenio sees merit in it.

"To compare that to Warren's intimidation by LBJ--and indirectly the CIA--about fears of nuclear Holocaust is just ridiculous and dishonest."

Like the other Jim from SoCal he believes that those whose views are significantly different from his are 'dishonest'.

Edited by Len Colby, 26 December 2011 - 03:47 PM.


#20 Kathleen Collins

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Posted 26 December 2011 - 06:59 PM



Robert,

there is no equivelence between Armstrong's Two Oswald Theory and the Lonsdale affair. Assuming the ID of dead people has long been an option for spies and criminals.

The de La Guardia twins were arrested and tried on drug trafficking charges - which may or may not have had a political motive concerning one of the other arrestees. I have searched for some indication that they were involved in spying and if so, that it entailed assuming each other's identity, and have found none. What exactly does Armstrong claim about them that he believes shows equivelence?

Bottom line -- if they were in fact spies, and if they did pretend to be each other as part of their spy activities -that at least makes some sense. They looked very much alike and shared personality traits and personal history. The theory that two unrelated boys - one noticably shorter and brighter than the other - were used in a lifelong project involving one pretending to be the other - and moreover, neccitating the use also of a doppleganger mother for the one dubbed "Harvey", is the stuff of z grade movies.

As for the files marked "Harvey Lee Oswald"... don't forget the one marked "Henry Oswald" -- maybe we should go for a triplet project? Or maybe there were other reasons for it. The work done by Bill Simpich may help clarify.

The Armstrong case for two Oswald's is a lot like the WC case for a lone assassin. It is built on often misunderstand, or deliberately reshaped circumstantial evidence - padded out with irrelvancies and bloated to a supersized burger for public consumption. Both can look appealing for those hungry enough for a solution. Just don't put the ingredients under a mcroscope!

The main difference is that whereas the WC never met an"Oswald sighting" it could accept - Armstrong never met one he could reject.

But both extremes were in support of a predetermined conclusion.


Greg, what about Armstrong's photos of 2 Lee Harvey Oswalds in school? (One was Harvey Lee Oswald.) And one of the Oswald's had a busted tooth in high school. And one had an inner ear surgery. Why did Marina walk up to the coffin before it was put on display and open one of his eyes to see the color? (Why else?)

I can't wait to read your book.

Kathy C


Kathy,

Hate to be a nuisance, but could you provide a link to the two photos you're referring to and provide some information on who designated one as being "Harvey Lee Oswald"?

The busted tooth photo I'm aware of, but will need to dig up all the info on it and will get back to you.

First I've heard about Marina and the coffin. Where did that information come from? I gather you are guessing as to the reason she did it (assuming she did)

That suggests a further problem... in that you seem to be saying "Lee" and "Harvey" didn't even share the same eye color?

I can think of at least one other reason someone might open the eyes to look at them: superstition. There was a lot of that still around in the '60s, particularly outside of western culture. But even western culture carries on with very old superstitions involving the dead, including covering the face with a sheet. This was originally done because it was believed the spirit escaped through the mouth.


Greg, there are photos on a disk that came with "Harvey and Lee." It apparently is Read Only. I can't copy them. There are a lot of photos of either the "birth Oswald" or they're Lee Oswald. The photos of them in school may show different Oswalds. The "Lee" one seems normal, adjusted. But after the Civil Air Patrol, it's hard to find a picture of him. Maybe leaving the TSBD and getting into the Rambler. His older pictures begin to look like Harvey (shot by Ruby). I'm sorry I can't provide his school pictures (in groups).

Kathy C

#21 Greg Parker

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Posted 26 December 2011 - 09:29 PM

GP: The Armstrong case for two Oswald's is a lot like the WC case for a lone assassin. It is built on often misunderstand, or deliberately reshaped circumstantial evidence - padded out with irrelvancies and bloated to a supersized burger for public consumption. Both can look appealing for those hungry enough for a solution. Just don't put the ingredients under a mcroscope!

The main difference is that whereas the WC never met an"Oswald sighting" it could accept - Armstrong never met one he could reject.

But both extremes were in support of a predetermined conclusion.


This is complete crap Greg and you know it.

Armstrong got on to his theory through Palmer McBride and then his interviews with the others in the astronomy club, and his tracking down of the opera dates.

To compare that to Warren's intimidation by LBJ--and indirectly the CIA--about fears of nuclear Holocaust is just ridiculous and dishonest.


I never did that, Jim.


McBride's testimony led to Armstrong investigating a Two Oswald theory to the exclusion of any other possibility.


The FBI report and the wording of the order that gave the commission life, led it down the lone nut path to the exclusion of any other possibility.

In fact, your venom for Armstrong reminds me of you know who.

I have no venom for Armstrong. I don't know the man. I do have a constitutional dislike of cults. I do have a constitutional dislike of anything that misleads.

Just like its the opposite pole of your inexplicable attraction to Gilbride's goofiness.

A Liftonesque deflection. RG knows I don't buy into some of his work. He no doubt, doesn't buy into some of mine.


Both Armstrong and Gilbride have provided public access to very important material. Both deserve respect for that, even where you cannot respect their theories.


I don't know John Armstrong, but I do know Richard Gilbride well enough, I think, to say he is a very decent human being. And his efforts on certain TSBD employees, as well as on Ruth Paine, has been very helpful to me.


That is the last time I will discuss RG outside of any thread specific to his work. This thread is about the three areas that are used to "verify" two Oswald's.


Plenty of room for discussion of alleged and actual goofiness right there.





#22 Greg Parker

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Posted 26 December 2011 - 11:01 PM




Robert,

there is no equivelence between Armstrong's Two Oswald Theory and the Lonsdale affair. Assuming the ID of dead people has long been an option for spies and criminals.

The de La Guardia twins were arrested and tried on drug trafficking charges - which may or may not have had a political motive concerning one of the other arrestees. I have searched for some indication that they were involved in spying and if so, that it entailed assuming each other's identity, and have found none. What exactly does Armstrong claim about them that he believes shows equivelence?

Bottom line -- if they were in fact spies, and if they did pretend to be each other as part of their spy activities -that at least makes some sense. They looked very much alike and shared personality traits and personal history. The theory that two unrelated boys - one noticably shorter and brighter than the other - were used in a lifelong project involving one pretending to be the other - and moreover, neccitating the use also of a doppleganger mother for the one dubbed "Harvey", is the stuff of z grade movies.

As for the files marked "Harvey Lee Oswald"... don't forget the one marked "Henry Oswald" -- maybe we should go for a triplet project? Or maybe there were other reasons for it. The work done by Bill Simpich may help clarify.

The Armstrong case for two Oswald's is a lot like the WC case for a lone assassin. It is built on often misunderstand, or deliberately reshaped circumstantial evidence - padded out with irrelvancies and bloated to a supersized burger for public consumption. Both can look appealing for those hungry enough for a solution. Just don't put the ingredients under a mcroscope!

The main difference is that whereas the WC never met an"Oswald sighting" it could accept - Armstrong never met one he could reject.

But both extremes were in support of a predetermined conclusion.


Greg, what about Armstrong's photos of 2 Lee Harvey Oswalds in school? (One was Harvey Lee Oswald.) And one of the Oswald's had a busted tooth in high school. And one had an inner ear surgery. Why did Marina walk up to the coffin before it was put on display and open one of his eyes to see the color? (Why else?)

I can't wait to read your book.

Kathy C


Kathy,

Hate to be a nuisance, but could you provide a link to the two photos you're referring to and provide some information on who designated one as being "Harvey Lee Oswald"?

The busted tooth photo I'm aware of, but will need to dig up all the info on it and will get back to you.

First I've heard about Marina and the coffin. Where did that information come from? I gather you are guessing as to the reason she did it (assuming she did)

That suggests a further problem... in that you seem to be saying "Lee" and "Harvey" didn't even share the same eye color?

I can think of at least one other reason someone might open the eyes to look at them: superstition. There was a lot of that still around in the '60s, particularly outside of western culture. But even western culture carries on with very old superstitions involving the dead, including covering the face with a sheet. This was originally done because it was believed the spirit escaped through the mouth.


Greg, there are photos on a disk that came with "Harvey and Lee." It apparently is Read Only. I can't copy them. There are a lot of photos of either the "birth Oswald" or they're Lee Oswald. The photos of them in school may show different Oswalds. The "Lee" one seems normal, adjusted. But after the Civil Air Patrol, it's hard to find a picture of him. Maybe leaving the TSBD and getting into the Rambler. His older pictures begin to look like Harvey (shot by Ruby). I'm sorry I can't provide his school pictures (in groups).

Kathy C



Kathy, can you answer this.. which one had Otitis Media?

Because the one who had a mastoidectomy at age 5 had it.

The one who was at YH had it.

The one who turned up in Family Court had it.

The one in the Marines had it.

The one who entered hospital in Minsk had it.



The only way I can see around this for Armstrong's theory to work is to say that both boys had this particular ear problem.


But if you go down that road, my response is going to be, "so the CIA was smart enough to use boys who both had Otitis Media, but this same CIA was too dumb to match them on height, intelligence, language ability, or even eye color."





#23 Greg Parker

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Posted 26 December 2011 - 11:50 PM

Ok Greg, I agree you did not say that, I wish you had been more specific.

But when you say Palmer McBride only, you leave out the fact that when John found the other members of the astronomy club, they backed him Palmer up.

Further, the opera that he and Oswald went to, Boris Godunov, only played in New Orleans in October of 1957, when Oswald was in Japan.



Armstrong: http://www.jfkresear...om/jfk_101.html

In 1993 I located and telephoned Wulf, who was living in a small town outside of New Orleans. When I asked him if he remembered the year he met Oswald, Wulf thought for a minute and said, "Either late 1957 or early 1958." After discussing his recollections of the NOAAA meeting, I was satisfied that his memory of the date was accurate. Now there were two people who said Oswald was in New Orleans in 1957 and 1958, when Marine Corps records showed that he was in Japan.



FBI report of interview with Wulf: "Sometime in 1955, the date, month or season not recalled, Wulf received a telephone call from a person who became known to him as Lee (LNU). At this time. Lee was about 16 years of age, worked at Pfister's Dental Laboratory along with Palmer E McBride who was also known to Wulf..."
http://www.maryferre...bsPageId=690804

Armstrong also said in the above linked piece,

From this experience I realized that in order to challenge the Warren Commission's conclusions, my work would have to be thoroughly documented. If the two hypercritical men in Jim's class would argue with Dr. Crenshaw over a mere telephone call received at Parkland Hospital on November 22nd, and dismiss Palmer McBride by saying "he's wrong," then I had a good indication of what to expect in the future. Supporters of the Warren Commission, and their conclusion that Oswald had assassinated the President, would look for any opportunity and spare no argument in an attempt to nit-pick and discredit anyone who challenged the government's position. With those thoughts in mind, I began to study the life and background of Lee Harvey Oswald in an attempt to learn whether McBride or the Warren Commission was correct as to Oswald's whereabouts in 1957 and 1958.



Yet, he does not mention anything in that piece about Wulf's FBI interview. It's hardly a nit-pick either, to point out he is happy to use McBride's interview with authorities, but appears to prefer Wulf's 30 year old memory over what he said at the time.


As for the opera... is there any confirmation that Oswald ever saw that opera with McBride in 1957? Does Oswald ever confirm it? Does anyone close to him ever mention him saying he saw it?


That one memory seems a pretty rickety structure to hang your hat on without any confirmation for it. If McBride misremembered the year he knew Oswald, and I can take Armstrong's word that the opera only played in NO during October, 1957 - then the inevitable conclusion is that McBride misremembered who he saw the opera with.

The bottom line is, even if it turned out to be true - it does not change the fact that it is a flimsy piece of evidence.

Edited by Greg Parker, 27 December 2011 - 12:10 AM.


#24 Greg Parker

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 12:40 AM

Ok Greg, I agree you did not say that, I wish you had been more specific.

But when you say Palmer McBride only, you leave out the fact that when John found the other members of the astronomy club, they backed him Palmer up.


Further, the opera that he and Oswald went to, Boris Godunov, only played in New Orleans in October of 1957, when Oswald was in Japan.


According to Armstrong himself, reading McBride's statement was - as he put it - "The Beginning of My Project"


The Beginning of My Project


I decided to give a presentation in Jim's class based on the FBI's interview of Palmer McBride. I provided students with copies of the interview (WC Exhibit 1386) and Oswald's Marine records, which are both published in the Warren Volumes. The Marine records clearly show that when McBride claimed to have worked with Oswald, from October, 1957 thru May, 1958 at the Pfisterer Dental Laboratory in New Orleans, Oswald was in Japan.

With these documents in hand, I wondered aloud how Oswald could have been in Japan and New Orleans at the same time. I reminded the students about Jack White's video, "The Many Faces of Lee Harvey Oswald," in which White claimed that various photos of Lee Harvey Oswald were of two different people. I ended my presentation by suggesting that more work needed to be done relating to the life and background of Lee Harvey Oswald. Who was Lee Harvey Oswald? Why did the Commission ignore Palmer McBride's statement? Why was McBride never interviewed? Were their additional documents that conflicted with Oswald's background and indicated that he was in two places at the same time?

Clearly, the decision to investigate resulted solely from McBride as I stated - he then - as part of his personal investigation - looked into those other members...





#25 Andric Perez

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 01:09 AM


Sometimes the whole Oswald family was seen in places they couldn't have been according to the official story. One example is that gun shop in Irvin, TX (or Dallas, can't remember very well). Oswald was seen driving the car, but he allegedly could not drive.

Wayne January saw Oswald with a woman in a Dallas airport.


Andric,

you said it all when you said 'allegedly" couldn't drive. I'm curious as to why this could not have been the O's (apart from the driving issue)? Where else were they supposed to have been at the time?

I'm perfectly at ease with the Irving incidents being the O's as I have looked into those sightings quite recently, but it's possible I missed that they were supposed to be elsewhere. The January one, I'd have to take another look at -- has been a while...


According to American AViation's owner (Wayne January), A man who looked like Oswald stayed in a car while a heavy set man and a woman came out and approached Wayne January on November 20th, 1963 asking questions that made January believe they planned to hijack a Cessna plane to Cuba. January decided not to rent the plane.

Do you believe this was the real Oswald? January said this happened on the morning of November 20th, which would be the Wednesday prior to the assassination. An impersonation doubter would have to explain why Oswald's manager in the Texas School Book Depository never spoke about LHO taking the morning off couple of days before the assassination.


The excerpt related to January's inteview with author James Douglass (JFK and the Unspeakable, 2008) can be seen in the following link, on page 244: http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

Edited by Andric Perez, 27 December 2011 - 01:13 AM.


#26 Greg Parker

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 01:32 AM


I hear you - just don't forget to use your CIA filter.

I think DeMohrenschildt is our most solid link to Oswald. He shows a lot of insight into the man. Though some may disagree, I don't think he knew what he was babysitting Oswald for, though he knew there was something going on operationally. As for his politics, they were, I think, like Oswald's, complicated. And let's not forget that the CIA in those days was even siphoning funds through liberal groups in the name of anti-communism (something which got Allard Lowenstein into some trouble in later years)and so was not necessarily (in those pre-disclosure days) seen as a purely reactionary entity.

Greg, I hope you didn't misconstrue what my reasoning was in writing what I did. It was not intended as a rebuttal , or an attempt to argue against your views, but merely a collection of some of my observations on the whole affair.
And an atttempt, on my part to act on, from what I have kept up at your website, between the Dream Team;


The only way to develop a comprehensive outlook is to thrash matters out through going over the key points. Which can be very constructive in arriving at some type of consensus. I am glad to see the points you developed in response to what I wrote, and believe me, they are well taken.

Regarding your question, I tend to believe Oswald was dyslexic, I just don't see how he couldn't have been after looking at some of the arguments for that point.

Robert, the arguments made for that point are based on what people think dyslexia is, rather than what it actually is. It is one of those things that has a lot of myths surrounding it. I know Dr Rome diagnosed dyslexia, but he did so based solely on a few samples of Oswald's writing. Hartogs' had professional and court reports, as well as his own interview of Oswald and did not come up with that diagnosis - despite the fact that studies had already been done linking dyslexia to truancy and criminal behavior (Preyser 1935; Frederick & Bond 1936; Von Ebel 1949 - 1959 to name three such studies) . Given that fact, I am certain YH would be actively looking for any and all signs of dyslexia/word blindness. Yet Hartogs diagnosis was "Personality Pattern Disturbance" - probably as close a diagnosis as he could make to Asperger's since Asperger's was not yet recognised in the US. As I've stated, Dr Asperger himself referred to the syndrome as a "personality disorder".


Common signs of dyslexia in adults:


May hide reading problems.
May spell poorly; relies on others to correct spelling.
Avoids writing; may not be able to write.
Often very competent in oral language.
Relies on memory; may have an excellent memory.
Often has good "people" skills.
Often is spatially talented; professions include, but are not limited, to engineers, architects, designers, artists and craftspeople, mathematicians, physicists, physicians (esp. surgeons and orthopedists), and dentists.
May be very good at "reading" people/intuitive.
In jobs is often working well below their intellectual capacity.
May have difficulty with planning, organization and management of time, materials and tasks.
Often entrepreneurs.
Sources:Basic Facts about Dyslexia: What Every Layperson Ought to Know - © Copyright 1993, 2nd ed. 1998. The International Dyslexia Association, Baltimore, MD.



Typical adult symptoms of Aspergerís

Average or above average intelligence
Inability to think in abstract ways
Difficulties in empathizing with others
Problems with understanding another personís point of view
Hampered conversational ability
Problems with controlling feelings such as anger, depression and anxiety
Adherence to routines and schedules, and stress if expected routine is disrupted
Inability to manage appropriate social conduct
Specialized fields of interest or hobbies
Source: Autism Victoria




My only addition to anything in that area is the analysis by the soothsayers for both sides of the "Historic Diary" issue, made, I believe a pretty good case that parts of it seemed
to have been written in large chunks at a time, which, my take on that is that it reinforces the idea that Oswald
was a man on a mission for a branch of the U.S. government when he went to the Soviet Union, either ONI or the State
Department.

I have a few surprises up my sleeve in this area, and finding more as I go... even up to last night...

Best Wishes....Robert

You too, Robert.





#27 Greg Parker

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 02:45 AM



Sometimes the whole Oswald family was seen in places they couldn't have been according to the official story. One example is that gun shop in Irvin, TX (or Dallas, can't remember very well). Oswald was seen driving the car, but he allegedly could not drive.

Wayne January saw Oswald with a woman in a Dallas airport.


Andric,

you said it all when you said 'allegedly" couldn't drive. I'm curious as to why this could not have been the O's (apart from the driving issue)? Where else were they supposed to have been at the time?

I'm perfectly at ease with the Irving incidents being the O's as I have looked into those sightings quite recently, but it's possible I missed that they were supposed to be elsewhere. The January one, I'd have to take another look at -- has been a while...


According to American AViation's owner (Wayne January), A man who looked like Oswald stayed in a car while a heavy set man and a woman came out and approached Wayne January on November 20th, 1963 asking questions that made January believe they planned to hijack a Cessna plane to Cuba. January decided not to rent the plane.

Do you believe this was the real Oswald? January said this happened on the morning of November 20th, which would be the Wednesday prior to the assassination. An impersonation doubter would have to explain why Oswald's manager in the Texas School Book Depository never spoke about LHO taking the morning off couple of days before the assassination.


The excerpt related to January's inteview with author James Douglass (JFK and the Unspeakable, 2008) can be seen in the following link, on page 244: http://books.google....epage&q&f=false



Andric,


January is guilty of telling people what they want to hear -- and all those who interview for books are guilty of letting him do that without raising with him what is contained in the original FBI report.

January contacted the FBI on Nov 27. 1963 stating he had what he thought was pertinent information and asked to be contacted about it.
http://www.maryferre...73&relPageId=78

He was subsequently interviewed on Nov 29.

During that interview, he placed the incident as being late July with the proposed trip a few months down the track.
http://www.maryferre...73&relPageId=79

He told Russo it was three men and that it happened 4 days before the assassination.

He did not tell the FBI the man in the car was Oswald. He said he resembled Oswald -- and that is about the only consistent thing he stuck to.




#28 Greg Parker

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 02:54 AM



Sometimes the whole Oswald family was seen in places they couldn't have been according to the official story. One example is that gun shop in Irvin, TX (or Dallas, can't remember very well). Oswald was seen driving the car, but he allegedly could not drive.

Wayne January saw Oswald with a woman in a Dallas airport.


Andric,

you said it all when you said 'allegedly" couldn't drive. I'm curious as to why this could not have been the O's (apart from the driving issue)? Where else were they supposed to have been at the time?

I'm perfectly at ease with the Irving incidents being the O's as I have looked into those sightings quite recently, but it's possible I missed that they were supposed to be elsewhere. The January one, I'd have to take another look at -- has been a while...


According to American AViation's owner (Wayne January), A man who looked like Oswald stayed in a car while a heavy set man and a woman came out and approached Wayne January on November 20th, 1963 asking questions that made January believe they planned to hijack a Cessna plane to Cuba. January decided not to rent the plane.

Do you believe this was the real Oswald? January said this happened on the morning of November 20th, which would be the Wednesday prior to the assassination. An impersonation doubter would have to explain why Oswald's manager in the Texas School Book Depository never spoke about LHO taking the morning off couple of days before the assassination.


The excerpt related to January's inteview with author James Douglass (JFK and the Unspeakable, 2008) can be seen in the following link, on page 244: http://books.google....epage&q&f=false


Andric,

sorry... to answer your specific question... do I believe a person who was said to resemble Oswald, and who was with either a man and a woman, or two other men in either late July or alternatively, Nov 18 or Nov 20, was in fact Oswald?

No. But I may have found it more convincing if these discrepancies had been raised with him and explained in a sensible fashion.

Edit to add: I could not use this evidence myself because of the lack of any effort to address the problems I've pointed to. And I would love to be able to accept it because it would support that Oswald was led to believe he'd be flown out of the country, which is something I suspect as being part of the plot.

Edited by Greg Parker, 27 December 2011 - 03:10 AM.


#29 Greg Parker

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 10:11 AM

"Mr Firorello recalled Oswald was employed for approximately two months in the first part of 1956, and when he quit, he stated he was going to Texas to sell shoes... Mr Fiorello said that he [Oswald] associated mainly with another messenger Palmer McBride... McBride's main interest was astrology [sic] and he and Oswald often had long discussions on this topic. They also discussed and often argued about Russia but not specifically communism..."

"Another employee at the dental lab, Lionel Slater, was interviewed and stated that he too was employed as a messenger during Oswald's period of employment... and associated mainly with Palmer McBride... He too stated that Oswald and McBride were interested in and frequently discussed astrology [sic]... "
http://www.maryferre...21&relPageId=42

"John B Ulmer, Jr... worked as a messenger for Pfisterer Dental Laboratory Company from 1953 to 1961... does not recall Lee Harvey Oswald, although Oswald's photograph , taken while a student in 9th grade at Beauregard School, New Orleans, resembles a messenger who was employed there for just a few weeks in about 1956..."

You cannot dismiss them as being wrong without speaking to them and investigating there claims.

That was the benchmark Armstrong placed on McBride's evidence when it was suggested he was mistaken about the dates...


From AJ Weberman's nodule on McBride

In April or May 1958 OSWALD stated he was moving to Fort Worth, Texas, with his mother. In about August 1958, I received a letter from him saying he was employed as a shoe salesman in Ft. Worth. In this letter he stated he had gotten mixed-up in an anti-Negro or an anti-Communist riot in a high school grounds in Ft. Worth, Texas.


I have checked google news archives and cannot find any news stories from 1958 about any riots in Forth Worth. Period. Regardless of their nature.

The official timeline has Oswald moving to Collinswood St, Fort Worth in July, 1956...

and Lo... I found a number of stories of riots in and around Fort Worth from early September, 1956

Here is one of those stories
Ft Worth riot one

Here is another

scroll down to this sub-head
violence threatens

So long McBride... so long "Harvey"...

Edited by Greg Parker, 20 August 2012 - 10:48 PM.


#30 Greg Parker

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 11:11 AM





Sometimes the whole Oswald family was seen in places they couldn't have been according to the official story. One example is that gun shop in Irvin, TX (or Dallas, can't remember very well). Oswald was seen driving the car, but he allegedly could not drive.

Wayne January saw Oswald with a woman in a Dallas airport.


Andric,

you said it all when you said 'allegedly" couldn't drive. I'm curious as to why this could not have been the O's (apart from the driving issue)? Where else were they supposed to have been at the time?

I'm perfectly at ease with the Irving incidents being the O's as I have looked into those sightings quite recently, but it's possible I missed that they were supposed to be elsewhere. The January one, I'd have to take another look at -- has been a while...


According to American AViation's owner (Wayne January), A man who looked like Oswald stayed in a car while a heavy set man and a woman came out and approached Wayne January on November 20th, 1963 asking questions that made January believe they planned to hijack a Cessna plane to Cuba. January decided not to rent the plane.

Do you believe this was the real Oswald? January said this happened on the morning of November 20th, which would be the Wednesday prior to the assassination. An impersonation doubter would have to explain why Oswald's manager in the Texas School Book Depository never spoke about LHO taking the morning off couple of days before the assassination.

The excerpt related to January's inteview with author James Douglass (JFK and the Unspeakable, 2008) can be seen in the following link, on page 244: http://books.google....epage&q&f=false



Andric,


January is guilty of telling people what they want to hear -- and all those who interview for books are guilty of letting him do that without raising with him what is contained in the original FBI report.

January contacted the FBI on Nov 27. 1963 stating he had what he thought was pertinent information and asked to be contacted about it.
http://www.maryferre...73&relPageId=78

He was subsequently interviewed on Nov 29.

During that interview, he placed the incident as being late July with the proposed trip a few months down the track.
http://www.maryferre...73&relPageId=79

He told Russo it was three men and that it happened 4 days before the assassination.

He did not tell the FBI the man in the car was Oswald. He said he resembled Oswald -- and that is about the only consistent thing he stuck to.


Greg,

As far as I'm aware, the first author to report January's story was Matthew Smith in his 1992 book JFK: The Second Plot. He told Smith it was two men and a woman and the one who waited in the car looked like Oswald. Smith located the original FBI reports and showed them to January. Smith writes that January "was amazed when this author told him the FBI stated he had said his visitors, including Oswald, had called several months before the assassination, instead of two days before, 'How would I have been able to remember the face to compare with the pictures of Oswald on television for that long?' he asked. 'It was Wednesday before the assassination.'"

FWIW I have no opinion as to the truthfulness of January's story but I don't doubt the possibility that the FBI purposely mangled his story as it may well of done so with others including Carolyn Arnold and Julia Ann Mercer.


Thanks Martin. I could be wrong, but Tony Summers may have got there first.

I was obviously wrong in surmising that none of the authors had raised his FBI interview with him... neverless... I stand by the fact that January told him want he wanted to hear and that was the end of any - even half-hearted attempt at investigating January's story.

The fact is that January was lying through his teeth when he claimed to be "amazed" by what the FBI report said.

How do I know?

The FBI interviewed PL Newman of UPI over a story he published citing an un-named source that Oswald had tried to charter a flight at Redbird during the summer. He gave the name Wayne January as his source. As a result, January was reinterviewed.
http://www.maryferre...22&relPageId=71

"January reiterated the fact that the man who approached him last summer regarding this charter flight was definitely not Lee Harvey Oswald..." He goes on to repeat that the man who looked like Oswald was seated in the car the whole time.
http://www.maryferre...22&relPageId=72

Now in order to protect the January story, you'll have to claim that not one, but two interviews with January were fudged, the interview with Newman was likewise fudged, and the FBI then went around and destroyed all copies of Newman's UPI story or somehow fudged the dates in it as well. Isn't that going a bit too far to protect a story that you like?

Edited by Greg Parker, 27 December 2011 - 11:13 AM.





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