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Did O'Donnell select the Trade Mart ?


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#1 Gil Jesus

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 03:13 PM

David Von Pein wrote on his blog:

".....it was Mr. O'Donnell, like it or not, who put the final stamp of approval on the Trade Mart as the site for the November 22 Dallas luncheon (Warren Report, Page 31)."

FROM THE TESTIMONY:

Mr. SPECTER. One other detail, Mr. O'Donnell. Did you have occasion to deal with any particular individuals from the city of Dallas itself during this trip, or in preparation for this trip?

Mr. O'DONNELL. No.

( 7 H 457 )


Mr. SPECTER. Were there any factors peculiar to Dallas which delayed the determination of the motorcade route?

Mr. O'DONNELL. The only factor that really did hold up a final decision was we had not been able to finally agree on where he would end up and where he would deliver the speech. There was a controversy between the Governor, and between some of the local democratic figures, and between our people, as to whether the place finally selected was the best place for the President to give the address. The Governor felt very strongly on it. And we finally acquiesced to his views. But I would think that came rather late in the game, and it would have altered the route quite dramatically.

( 7 H 443 )

Connally, the Yarborough group and the Secret Service were at odds as to where the luncheon would be held. The White House yielded to Connally.

Edited by Gil Jesus, 04 February 2012 - 10:57 AM.


#2 David Von Pein

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 04:49 PM

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/12/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-107.html

Posted Image

Edited by David Von Pein, 03 February 2012 - 06:12 PM.


#3 Gil Jesus

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 11:06 AM


Thank You for posting that which I have already stated. Does that prove your point ? The Warren Report made statements that were NOT supported by the testimony. There's a BIG difference between the White House yielding to Connally and putting "the final stamp of approval" on the location.

That's like saying that a parent who doesn't want her kid to go to the mall, after hours of arguing with the kid and finally gives in, approves of it.

Your interpretation of the facts, as usual, is ridiculous.

#4 David Von Pein

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 12:09 PM

Thank you for posting that which I have already stated. Does that prove your point? The Warren Report made statements that were NOT supported by the testimony. There's a BIG difference between the White House yielding to Connally and putting "the final stamp of approval" on the location.


No, not really. They are pretty much the same thing here. Because the Trade Mart was selected as the luncheon site; and Kenneth P. O'Donnell was the person who "made the final decision to hold the luncheon at the Trade Mart" (direct quote from Page 31 of the Warren Commission Report).

Ergo, Ken O'Donnell did ultimately put his seal of "approval" on the Trade Mart.

But, aside from any semantics issues here, if Kenny O'Donnell (or someone else in a very high position in President Kennedy's inner circle) had truly wanted to nix the Trade Mart as the location for the November 22 luncheon, then it would have been nixed. Simple as that. And there would have been nothing that John Connally could have done about it.

Yes, it's true that Connally wanted the luncheon to be held at the Trade Mart. But if the Secret Service had told O'Donnell that they just simply could not secure the balconies in that building properly enough to ensure JFK's safety, then O'Donnell would have undoubtedly nixed the Trade Mart as the luncheon site.

Don't you agree that that would have happened, Gil? Or were John Connally's desires and wishes the only things that mattered to O'Donnell, and to hell with the President's safety?


Your interpretation of the facts, as usual, is ridiculous.


Gil Jesus, in his first post in this thread, is obviously implying that John B. Connally was part of something sinister when it comes to Connally pushing for the Trade Mart as the Dallas luncheon site.

Because if that's NOT what you're implying in your first post, Gil, then what's the point of highlighting things like "Governor" and "the Governor felt very strongly on it".

You apparently want to believe that John Connally was a prime conspirator in the murder of JFK. Otherwise, again, what's your point?

Your interpretation of the facts, as usual, is not only ridiculous -- it's insane.

And to illustrate just how insane Gil's theories can be, I offer up the following prime example:

"Let's not forget that all of the previous three successful Presidential assassinations were made from a distance of three feet or less. In addition, the position of Kennedy's head at Z312, together with the description by the witnesses of an entry wound in the right front of the head and an exit wound in the right rear, would indicate a trajectory of a shot coming out of the floorboard of the car.

"Let's also not forget that Johnson's man Connally was less than 3 feet from the President when he was murdered and was reportedly known to have carried a gun strapped to his ankle. Think about it."
-- Gil Jesus; July 15, 2007 [original post below]

http://groups.google...d783b571f900c24

Edited by David Von Pein, 04 February 2012 - 01:24 PM.


#5 Ray Mitcham

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 02:36 PM

David, you have just shown how one cannot trust the Warren Commission Report. O'Donnell stated in his evidence to the Commission that he did not make the decision. But the Warren Commission stated that he did.

#6 David Von Pein

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 03:17 PM

David, you have just shown how one cannot trust the Warren Commission Report. O'Donnell stated in his evidence to the Commission that he did not make the decision [to hold the 11/22/63 luncheon at the Dallas Trade Mart]. But the Warren Commission stated that he did.


Not at all, Ray. Including this Ken O'Donnell matter, I have not seen any proof by anyone that indicates the Warren Report cannot be trusted.

To the contrary, every single time I hear a conspiracy theorist bash the WC or the WCR, I look into it a little deeper to find a source for the things the CTers say have not been documented or supported by the Warren Commission, and every single time I have been able to find a good source for the Warren Report's contents. And that is largely because the WCR is sourced so well--with 6,500 source citations.

You would think that if the WC was nothing but a sham and a farce, they wouldn't have been able to back up their findings so thoroughly with citations. But they did document their findings and conclusions very well.

For example, the O'Donnell thing: I checked the source that the WCR uses on Page 31 when the Report says that O'Donnell made the final decision to use the Trade Mart for the luncheon. And the source leads to CE1360, which is a July 10, 1964, memorandum to the WC from Secret Service Chief James Rowley.

The memo seen in CE1360 says that O'Donnell informed Jerry Behn of the Secret Service that the Trade Mart was going to be the place where the 11/22 luncheon would be held, with Behn then notifying Winston Lawson on November 14, 1963 -- which is just exactly what the Warren Report says on Page 31 of its final report.

I suppose the conspiracists will argue that CE1360 doesn't specifically say this: "Ken O'Donnell made the final Trade Mart decision."

And it's true that CE1360 doesn't say that. But the sum and substance of Rowley's memo to J. Lee Rankin on 7/10/64, IMO, is identical to the words we find on Page 31 of the WCR regarding Kenneth O'Donnell.

O'Donnell, et al, might have "acquiesced" to Governor Connally's wishes, but in the final analysis, it was not John Connally's FINAL DECISION to hold the luncheon at the Trade Mart. That was part of Ken O'Donnell's job to finalize that decision. And, as the WCR says on Page 31, it was O'Donnell who did just that.

Another excellent example of how CTers love to misrepresent the Warren Report:

http://jfk-archives....ts-part-82.html

Edited by David Von Pein, 04 February 2012 - 03:53 PM.


#7 Thomas Graves

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 08:36 PM

Thank you for posting that which I have already stated. Does that prove your point? The Warren Report made statements that were NOT supported by the testimony. There's a BIG difference between the White House yielding to Connally and putting "the final stamp of approval" on the location.


No, not really. They are pretty much the same thing here. Because the Trade Mart was selected as the luncheon site; and Kenneth P. O'Donnell was the person who "made the final decision to hold the luncheon at the Trade Mart" (direct quote from Page 31 of the Warren Commission Report).

Ergo, Ken O'Donnell did ultimately put his seal of "approval" on the Trade Mart.

But, aside from any semantics issues here, if Kenny O'Donnell (or someone else in a very high position in President Kennedy's inner circle) had truly wanted to nix the Trade Mart as the location for the November 22 luncheon, then it would have been nixed. Simple as that. And there would have been nothing that John Connally could have done about it.

Yes, it's true that Connally wanted the luncheon to be held at the Trade Mart. But if the Secret Service had told O'Donnell that they just simply could not secure the balconies in that building properly enough to ensure JFK's safety, then O'Donnell would have undoubtedly nixed the Trade Mart as the luncheon site.

Don't you agree that that would have happened, Gil? Or were John Connally's desires and wishes the only things that mattered to O'Donnell, and to hell with the President's safety?


Your interpretation of the facts, as usual, is ridiculous.


Gil Jesus, in his first post in this thread, is obviously implying that John B. Connally was part of something sinister when it comes to Connally pushing for the Trade Mart as the Dallas luncheon site.

Because if that's NOT what you're implying in your first post, Gil, then what's the point of highlighting things like "Governor" and "the Governor felt very strongly on it".

You apparently want to believe that John Connally was a prime conspirator in the murder of JFK. Otherwise, again, what's your point?

Your interpretation of the facts, as usual, is not only ridiculous -- it's insane.

And to illustrate just how insane Gil's theories can be, I offer up the following prime example:

"Let's not forget that all of the previous three successful Presidential assassinations were made from a distance of three feet or less. In addition, the position of Kennedy's head at Z312, together with the description by the witnesses of an entry wound in the right front of the head and an exit wound in the right rear, would indicate a trajectory of a shot coming out of the floorboard of the car.

"Let's also not forget that Johnson's man Connally was less than 3 feet from the President when he was murdered and was reportedly known to have carried a gun strapped to his ankle. Think about it."
-- Gil Jesus; July 15, 2007 [original post below]

http://groups.google...d783b571f900c24

Not wanting to hijack this thread (I know that's highly out of character for me), I just want to say that the Secret Service never should have approved that particular "Operation Anthropod"-like route. Obviously.

--Tommy :)

#8 David Von Pein

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 07:37 AM

The Secret Service never should have approved that particular "Operation Anthropod"-like route. Obviously.


http://jfk-archives....et-service.html

But I assume you have no problem with the Secret Service allowing JFK's car to completely stop on at least one occasion during the Dallas motorcade (and I think it was actually twice, because there's the story of JFK also stopping to greet a group of nuns along the route too, in addition to the incident mentioned below by Secret Service agent Clint Hill):

CLINT HILL -- "We did stop."

ARLEN SPECTER -- "On what occasion did you stop?"

MR. HILL -- "Between Love Field and Main Street, downtown Dallas, on the right-hand side of the street there were a group of people with a long banner which said, "Please, Mr. President, stop and shake our hands." And the President requested the motorcade to stop, and he beckoned to the people and asked them to come and shake his hand, which they did."

---------------

And I assume that you have no problem with the SS allowing hundreds of people to hang out of windows along virtually every large-city motorcade that JFK ever rode in -- such as in Dallas, on Main Street, before JFK reached Dealey Plaza (top picture below).

Posted Image

Posted Image

Edited by David Von Pein, 05 February 2012 - 07:45 AM.


#9 Thomas Graves

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 10:34 PM

The Secret Service never should have approved that particular "Operation Anthropod"-like route. Obviously.


http://jfk-archives....et-service.html

But I assume you have no problem with the Secret Service allowing JFK's car to completely stop on at least one occasion during the Dallas motorcade (and I think it was actually twice, because there's the story of JFK also stopping to greet a group of nuns along the route too, in addition to the incident mentioned below by Secret Service agent Clint Hill):

CLINT HILL -- "We did stop."

ARLEN SPECTER -- "On what occasion did you stop?"

MR. HILL -- "Between Love Field and Main Street, downtown Dallas, on the right-hand side of the street there were a group of people with a long banner which said, "Please, Mr. President, stop and shake our hands." And the President requested the motorcade to stop, and he beckoned to the people and asked them to come and shake his hand, which they did."

---------------

And I assume that you have no problem with the SS allowing hundreds of people to hang out of windows along virtually every large-city motorcade that JFK ever rode in -- such as in Dallas, on Main Street, before JFK reached Dealey Plaza (top picture below).

Posted Image

Posted Image


David,

Unlike the planned route through the death trap known as Dealey Plaza, via the Operation Anthropoid-like hairpin turn from Houston onto Elm, I rather doubt that the two stops you mention were planned ahead of time by the DPD and the Secret Service. More likely than not they were the result of spontaneous decisions by JFK to stop there and mingle a bit with the admiring crowd.

I really do wish you would post here more often, David, because shooting down your arguments is so easy and, well, fun!

--Tommy :)

P.S. Nice pictures

Edited by Thomas Graves, 05 February 2012 - 11:37 PM.


#10 David Von Pein

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 11:07 AM

Tommy Graves,

Can I get you to admit that the Dallas motorcade was not different or unusual in any way whatsoever when compared to other pre-November 22 motorcades that JFK rode in (from the standpoints of OPEN WINDOWS ALL ALONG THE ROUTE and SECRET SERVICE AGENTS NOT ALWAYS RIDING ON THE BUMPERS OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY'S LIMOUSINE)?

Posted Image Posted Image



...The death trap known as Dealey Plaza...


LOL.

If we were to examine the detailed routes for all of the many motorcades that JFK rode in during his three years as President, I'll bet you my next month's CIA/Bugliosi Disinfo Stipend that we could find a whole bunch of similar "death traps" that JFK travelled through.

But since he wasn't shot and killed on any of those other streets, there's no complaint coming from CTers, is there? Even though there were no doubt a lot of situations that would equate very closely to the situation that occurred on Elm Street in Dallas.

Or don't you think I could find even ONE similar "death trap" if I was privy to the detailed routes that JFK travelled from Jan. '61 to Nov. '63?

Edited by David Von Pein, 06 February 2012 - 11:21 AM.


#11 David Von Pein

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 04:08 PM

Palamara debunked here:

http://jfk-archives....et-service.html

Edited by David Von Pein, 06 February 2012 - 04:09 PM.


#12 Thomas Graves

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 11:39 PM

Tommy Graves,

Can I get you to admit that the Dallas motorcade was not different or unusual in any way whatsoever when compared to other pre-November 22 motorcades that JFK rode in (from the standpoints of OPEN WINDOWS ALL ALONG THE ROUTE and SECRET SERVICE AGENTS NOT ALWAYS RIDING ON THE BUMPERS OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY'S LIMOUSINE)?

Posted Image Posted Image
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/coder



...The death trap known as Dealey Plaza...


LOL.

If we were to examine the detailed routes for all of the many motorcades that JFK rode in during his three years as President, I'll bet you my next month's CIA/Bugliosi Disinfo Stipend that we could find a whole bunch of similar "death traps" that JFK travelled through.

But since he wasn't shot and killed on any of those other streets, there's no complaint coming from CTers, is there? Even though there were no doubt a lot of situations that would equate very closely to the situation that occurred on Elm Street in Dallas.

Or don't you think I could find even ONE similar "death trap" if I was privy to the detailed routes that JFK travelled from Jan. '61 to Nov. '63?


Rather than chosing to go straight down Main all the way under the triple underpass and to then turn onto Industrial Boulevard and pass through an ugly part of town, the Secret Service made Kennedy's limousine slowly negotiate the Secret Service-illegal 120-degree Operation Anthropoid-like turn from Houston onto Elm, and pass close by the picket fence on the Grassy Knoll. The purpose of that Houston-to-Elm turn for the assassins was to get the limo to slow way down. It worked. The limo was traveling only about 11 miles per hour right before the fatal head shot(s).

David, haven't you ever heard of Operation Anthropoid? Perhaps you should google it. No, wait! I'll do it for you so all you have to do is click on the link and read the article. (A synopsis for you: It involved a car, a hairpin turn, and an assassination.)
http://en.wikipedia....tion_Anthropoid

You might find this interesting, as well:
http://webcache.goog...n&ct=clnk&gl=us

(A) THE MAIN STREET-HOUSTON-ELM TURN

As the Dallas SAIC, Forrest Sorrels told the Warren Commission, he selected the Main-Houston-Elm turn through Dealey Plaza because it was the "most direct" route to the Trade Mart. (189) Sorrels' questioning by Warren Commission staff counsel Samuel M. Stern, however, prevented a total picture of motorcade route logistics from emerging. Stern asked Sorrels why the expressway was approached from the Elm Street ramp instead of from Main Street just beyond the triple overpass at the westen boundary of Dealey Plaza. Sorrels explained that the size and cumbersomeness of the motorcade, along with the presence of a raised divider separating the Elm Street lane from the Elm Street lane at the foot of the ramp up to the expressway, deterred him from trying to route the motorcade under and through the overpass on Main Street. Such a route would have assigned the drivers in the motorcade the almost impossible task of making a reverse S-turn in order to cross over the raised divider to get from the Main Street lane into the Elm Street lane. (190) However, this question-and-answer process failed to make clear that the Trade Mart was accessible from beyond the triple overpass in such a way that it was not necessary to enter the Elm Street ramp to the expressway. The motorcade could have progressed westward through Dealey Plaza on Main Street, passed under the overpass, and then proceeded on Industrial Boulevard to the Trade Mart. (191) George L. Lumpkin, assistant police chief in Dallas in 1963, was consulted by the Secret Service about the motorcade aspect of security planning. (192) Lumpkin explained that the alternate route, continuing straight on Main through and beyond Dealey Plaza and thereby reaching the Trade Mart on Industrial Boulevard, was rejected because the neighborhood surrounding Industrial Boulevard was "filled with winos and broken pavement." (193) Additionally, Lumpkin stated that Kennedy wanted exposure and that there would have been no crowds cn Industrial Boulevard. (194) (emphasis added)

--Tommy :)

Edited by Thomas Graves, 07 February 2012 - 01:40 AM.


#13 David Von Pein

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 01:29 AM

DiEugenio apparently wants to play the part of Village Idiot and act as if the motorcade route was actually changed, even though there's ample proof that the route was positively not changed at all.

But, as usual, to a conspiracy theorist like DiEugenio, it doesn't matter how stale and debunked a tired conspiracy theory might be, it's never TOO stale for the likes of some CTers who want to totally ignore the facts (which are presented below).

Was The Motorcade Route Changed?

Edited by David Von Pein, 07 February 2012 - 01:32 AM.


#14 William Kelly

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 01:54 AM

The most significant aspects of the planning for the trip to Dallas involved the selection of the general time - Hotel Cortez, Texas, after JFK and others had just visited a military base, the release of the dates - Sept. 25 - during JFK's Wisconsin trip, and the selection of the motorcade route, which as Mae Brussell pointed out decades ago - centered around the Sam Bloom Advertising Agency, the women named Harris who worked for Bloom, and Jack Peuterbauch of the Democratic National Committee and Agriculture Dept..

Oswald actually worked on Bloom projects while an employee of Jaggers, Chiles Stovall.

O'Donnell was the loyal Kennedy aide they manipulated not only to get JFK into the Kill Zone but to hijack AF1 for the return trip, because it had superior communications equipment.

BK
JFKcountercoup

#15 David Von Pein

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 01:58 AM

O'Donnell was the loyal Kennedy aide they manipulated not only to get JFK into the Kill Zone but to hijack AF1 for the return trip, because it had superior communications equipment.


Jesus H. Christ, what a load of bullshit.




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