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The Secret Service And CE399


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#16 David Von Pein

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 12:46 AM

David, we have no idea what was or was not forged on that envelope [CE842]. What we do know is that significant portions of it were erased, partially erased, and written over. You responded to that by posting a high contrast scan of the original photo in which much of the detail was not visible and then proclaimed the issue debunked. That was not only wrong, but flatly dishonest.


You can't possibly be serious about resurrecting this "Fake CE842" nonsense again, can you Bob? Particularly after your "fake Bell initials" theory went sliding down the toilet when I merely turned the exhibit upside-down and found that the initials you think are forgeries are in reality Captain Fritz' "JWF" initials:

Posted Image

http://groups.google...5f97b3215f2f151

And a color scan of CE842 doesn't show a hint of erasure marks. I guess this scan by John Hunt must be a forgery too, eh Bob?....

Posted Image

Edited by David Von Pein, 29 September 2012 - 12:48 AM.


#17 Robert Harris

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 01:18 AM

David, you know very well that Hunt's scan was done in high contrast for the obvious purpose of making the initials stand out clearly. Why are you pretending that I said that Hunt "forged" it? But even it contains obvious character fragments which prove that information on the envelope was altered.

You seem desperate to change the subject David. Are you now ready to discuss the statements of Connally, Wade, Nolan and Bell? I think Stinson's statement on the subject is also significant. And I think the key word here is "gurney".

The natural presumption would be that a nurse coming out of surgery on a gunshot wound victim, carrying a bullet, would be that the bullet was removed from the victim's body. Without Connally's explanation of what happened, it makes no sense at all that the bullet came from his "gurney". It is not something that these people would just presume or construct a false memory of. But that is exactly what she told both Wade and Nolan. Stinson, apparently wasn't listening closely to her, and made the presumption that the bullet was removed during surgery. But like the others, he confirmed that this bullet could not have been the one that Tomlinson found.

And don't you find it amazing that within about 90 minutes after the arrival of fragments at the FBI lab which could be compared with Tomlinson's bullet, he was awakened and told by the FBI to "keep his mouth shut" about that bullet?

CE399 was NOT the bullet that wounded Connally. It contained NONE of the initials that were made prior to it arriving at the FBI labs.

And the actual bullet that the nurse picked up and gave to Nolan could not have come from Oswald's gun, or the FBI would have flaunted it instead of trying to cover it up.

The evidence is overwhelming and beyond dispute. I find it shameful that all you can do is frantically try to change the subject so that you won't have to talk about it.

#18 David Von Pein

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 03:01 AM

Harris is totally forgetting (i.e., ignoring) the fact that Mike Williams demolished his CE842 forgery theory via multiple scans of the Hunt scan at various resolutions, etc., showing that there are no erasure marks on the document. One can only wonder why Bob persists in pursuing an obvious sham--his own. Sad.

Edited by David Von Pein, 29 September 2012 - 03:06 AM.


#19 David Von Pein

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 03:06 AM

ROBERT HARRIS SAID:

>>> "And when will you be up for talking about Wade, Nolan, Stinson and Bell?" <<<


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

#1 (Wade) -- He never saw a WHOLE BULLET at the hospital, and you know
it, Bob. He was talking about FRAGMENTS. If the word "bullet" was used
to describe the fragments, it's exactly the same type of semantics
error that was made by Sibert & O'Neill in their FBI report concerning
the supposed "missile" that they saw during JFK's autopsy. But Sibert
later admitted that "No large bullet of any kind...was found" during
the President's autopsy. (That's a verbatim quote from James Sibert on
June 30, 2005; listen to him say it at the link below. And yes, I know
I changed the subject a bit there, but only to demonstrate how easily
that SAME type of "bullet"/"fragment" mistake can occur, and DID occur
elsewhere in the very same murder investigation.)

Sibert Interview:
http://jfk-archives....mes-sibert.html

#2 (Nolan) -- Bobby Nolan, like Wade, never saw any WHOLE BULLET at
Parkland Hospital on 11/22/63. And even HE admitted that very fact to
YOU, didn't he, Bob (in a telephone interview you had with him)?
Correct me if I'm wrong about that, but didn't Nolan say he NEVER
OPENED THE ENVELOPE that he took to the DPD and gave to Will Fritz?
Therefore, how can he know for certain WHAT was inside that envelope
(CE842)?

#3 (Stinson) -- I'm going to need a refresher on Stinson's
observations concerning this supposed "extra bullet" matter, Bob.
Frankly, I just plain forgot what his role is in this. Did Stinson
supposedly see an extra whole bullet too?

#4 (Bell) -- Nurse Audrey Bell is ON TAPE telling the world that the
handwriting we see on the envelope in CE842 (which is clearly and
plainly marked "Bullet fragments" from Connally's "Right arm") is
Audrey Bell's own handwriting. She said she positively recognized her
own writing on that foreign body envelope. And I think she also stated
that she did not handle (and write on) more than ONE such envelope on
11/22/63. So your theory about Bell is moribund on that basis alone.
Naturally, you have other ideas. But, as usual, you can't PROVE that
any hanky-panky was going on with any "erased" initials on CE842. And
I think Mike Williams did a fairly decent job of debunking your
"erased initials" theory many months ago at another forum.

Sum total --- Bob Harris cannot prove that ANYONE actually SAW an
extra "whole bullet" at Parkland Memorial Hospital on November 22,
1963.

And, of course, the only "official" evidence in the case indicates
that the only whole "bullet" that was found at Parkland that day that
was in any way connected to the wounding of JFK and/or John B.Connally
was CE399. And nobody has been able to PROVE that that bullet was
planted or used as a substitute for any other bullet. CTers can
pretend that they've "proven" that CE399 is a fraudulent bullet, but
even Bob Harris knows that nobody has truly PROVEN that 399 is phony.
Let's face it -- the CTers of the world just flat-out WANT CE399 to be
fraudulent. Therefore, in their eyes, it is.

But the chain of possession of a WHOLE BULLET going from the hands of
Tomlinson, to Wright, to Johnsen, to Rowley, to Todd, to Frazier IS
INTACT -- and it always has been intact. None of those men ever said
anything that breaks that consistent chain. Each man received a whole
bullet from the previous man in the chain. That establishes a CHAIN OF
POSSESSION for the stretcher bullet.

Yes, most conspiracists think that the lack of Johnsen's and Rowley's
initials on CE399 constitutes a break in the chain. But, as John
McAdams has pointed out numerous times in the past, that just simply
is not so. The chain isn't broken due to a lack of marking the
evidence. There are other ways to establish the chain of possession,
and that's been done by the FBI, in asking each man in the "chain" if
they did, in fact, receive a bullet from the previous person in the
chain. And that chain is, indeed, intact. Whether the conspiracy
theorists like it or not.

And Elmer Todd DID mark Bullet CE399. We know he marked it, because
there's FBI documentation that tells us he marked it. And, no, I'm not
willing to concede that the FBI was playing fast and loose with the
words we find in CE2011. And my recent battles with Jim DiEugenio
regarding Darrell Tomlinson and his role in CE2011 should prove
something to at least a few CTers -- that being: the FBI did not lie
about Tomlinson when the FBI said in CE2011 that Tomlinson said that
CE399 resembled the stretcher bullet. And even Robert Harris has now
acknowledged the fact that the FBI did not lie about that.

Therefore, why should anyone really think that CE2011 contains ANY
lies at all (including the section in that document which reveals that
Elmer Todd positively identified his own initials on Bullet CE399)?

The initials that are visible on CE399 (even via the NARA's high-
quality color photos) are very difficult to discern (IMO). I can
hardly make out anyone's initials on that bullet. I can see some faint
markings, but they ARE hard to see. That's a fact. So why is it so
hard to believe that perhaps Todd put his mark on the bullet in such a
way where his initials are even MORE difficult to find than are Bob
Frazier's or Cunningham's or Killion's? Perhaps Todd didn't mark it as
"deeply" into the surface of the bullet as those other men did. Who
can know for sure?

But one thing I do know (because this fact exists in the written
record of this case) -- On June 24, 1964, Elmer Todd said he SAW HIS
OWN INITIALS on CE399. And before you're willing to claim that the
"Todd" portion of CE2011 is a complete lie, Bob, you might want to
think about what you were forced to admit on December 9, 2011 -- you
admitted on that date that the FBI actually told the TRUTH about
Darrell Tomlinson. That admission should make you pause at least for a
few extra seconds before you make any further claims of FBI misconduct
concerning that SAME document known as Commission Exhibit #2011.

DVP
Dec. 2011

Original Post:
http://groups.google...177c75ac72c96f6

#20 Robert Harris

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 05:25 AM

David, that is the biggest pile of crap I have heard in a long time, and coming from you, that's saying a lot. Let's review what those people actually said:

John Connally:

"..the most curious discovery of all took place when they rolled me off the stretcher, and onto the examining table. A metal object fell to the floor, with a click no louder than a wedding band. The nurse picked it up and slipped it into her pocket. It was the bullet from my body, the one that passed though my back, chest and wrist and worked itself loose from my thigh."

DA Henry Wade:

I also went out to see (Gov. John) Connally, but he was in the operating room. Some nurse had a bullet in her hand, and said this was on the gurney that Connally was on. I talked with Nellie Connally a while and then went on home.

Q: What did you do with the bullet? Is this the famous pristine bullet people have talked about?

A: I told her to give it to the police, which she said she would. I assume that's the pristine bullet.


Officer Billy Nolan:

Nolan: I was talking to a man who was one of governor Connally's aides. His name was - I think it was either Stinton or Stimmons (Bill Stinson). And he was an aide to the Governor. And she came up and told him that she had the bullet that came off of the gurney.

Now I don't know what gurney. I think they meant Governor Connally's gurney. And she said, "What do you want me to do with it?" He and I were just sitting there in the hallway talking to me and said, "Give it to him"

Q. Was it a bullet fragment or a complete bullet?

Nolan: I don't know. It was a - they told me that is was a bullet.

And I don't know if it was a fragment of a bullet or a whole bullet because it was in a little, small brown envelope. And it was sealed and it was about, I'd say 2 by 3 inches. And it was in that envelope when I got it and I never did look at it or anything."

Q. Now when the nurse gave it to you, did she describe it as a bullet fragment or as a bullet.

Nolan: Uh no. She just said it was a bullet. That's all.


Connally Aide Bill Stinson, whom Nolan said was standing next to him, obviously missed or misunderstood the part about the bullet coming from the gurney. He thought it was recovered in surgery.

from Ramparts magazine

"Before the Commission discredited Connally's testimony they should at least have heard all the important witnesses. Ramparts found one the Commission never talked to; they never even asked him for an affidavit. He is William Stinson, an aide to Governor Connally at the time of the assassination. Today, although officially employed by the Veterans Administraton, he has an office in the White House. Stinson told us he was in the operating room, wearing a sterile uniform, when the doctors operated on Connally at Parkland Hospital. 'The last thing they did,' said Stinson, 'was to remove the bullet from the governor's thigh---because that was the least thing that was wrong with him.'".

The FBI tried to cover this up by making it appear that Nolan was given the tiny fragments that nurse Audrey Bell gave to plain clothed agents in her office. This is from the ARRB report on her testimony:

When shown an FBI FD-302 dated November 23,1963 (Agency File Number 000919, Record# 180-l 0090-10270), she felt it was inaccurate in two respects: it quotes her as turning over “the metal fragment (singular),” whereas she is positive it was multiple fragments - it says she turned over the fragment to a Texas State Trooper, whereas she recalls turning it over to plainclothes Federal agents who were either FBI or Secret Service.


Let's review:

1. Connally said a bullet fell from his gurney onto the floor and was picked up by a nurse.

2. Wade encountered a nurse, undoubtedly, the same one, who was holding a bullet (not an envelope) in her hand and said it came from Connally's "gurney". He told her to give to the cops, pronto.

3. She did exactly as she was told and put the bullet into an envelope and gave it to officer Nolan, telling him that it was a "bullet" (not a fragment or fragments) that came from Governor Connally's "gurney".

4. Bill Stinson, who was with Nolan at the time, misunderstood and thought the bullet was recovered in surgery.


Tell me what happened David. Were they all on drugs? Did they all lie in order to promote a crazy conspiracy theory?

I also notice that you aren't interested in talking about that FBI phone call at 1:30 in the AM, to Tomlinson, telling him to keep his mouth shut about the bullet, just after they received fragments in Dallas that they could compare with Tomlinson's bullet. Strange coincidence, eh David??

This is the article that anyone interested in this subject needs to read:

http://jfkhistory.co...ellArticle.html

#21 David Von Pein

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 06:15 AM

Like virtually all conspiracy theorists, Robert Harris has no ability whatsoever when it comes to properly (and reasonably) evaluating evidence in the JFK case.

A second whole bullet falls from Connally's stretcher and is magically swept away from existence by....who again Bob?

CE842 is filled with fraudulent initials. Who did that again, Bob? Any chance you could actually prove some of the crap you purport as being the truth?

You were pretty doggone sure in 2009 that Bobby Nolan's initials weren't on CE842. Remember?

And in 2010, you were positive somebody forged Audrey Bell's initials on the same envelope. (Bob never learned to look at anything upside-down before--which is amazing, considering his talent for treating most of the JFK evidence in an upside-down fashion.)

And evidently Harris STILL thinks I'm wrong about Fritz' initials, because he's still got a YouTube video online stating that Bell's initials were forged! Go figure.

The best way to know that Harris is full of cow dung is the fact that there is no second bullet in evidence today that in any way was associated with the wounding of Gov. John B. Connally.

[Bob's laughter begins, as he cannot believe that ANYONE in 2012 would still place an ounce of faith in anything the US Govt. or the DPD or the FBI told him about the JFK evidence. Well, Bob, there are still a few of us weirdos out here who DO treat the real evidence in the JFK case like the REAL evidence--vs. tossing it all in the trash in favor of the evidence that is nowhere to be seen.]

Edited by David Von Pein, 29 September 2012 - 06:20 AM.


#22 Robert Harris

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 10:04 AM

Like virtually all conspiracy theorists, Robert Harris has no ability whatsoever when it comes to properly (and reasonably) evaluating evidence in the JFK case.

I love how you resort to ad hominem attacks when the evidence proves you are wrong David. When do you intend to talk about those key witnesses?

The best way to know that Harris is full of cow dung is the fact that there is no second bullet in evidence today that in any way was associated with the wounding of Gov. John B. Connally.

That has got to be the worst example of circular reasoning I have heard this year. The FBI couldn't have made this bullet evaporate because it is no longer around!! Of course the freakin bullet isn't "in evidence". The FBI made sure of that.

I think it is pathetic that you continue to try to change the subject and evade the most important evidence. There are no Ed Hoffmans among those witnesses David. We're talking about the Governor of Texas, the Dallas district attorney, the police officer in charge of Connally's security, Connally's top aide and the nursing supervisor in the ER. Who else do I need? Was Einstein still alive then?

Every one of them contradict you and every one of them prove that the actual bullet that wounded Connally was recovered on the second floor and given to officer Nolan.

Let me ask you a question David. You want to believe the FBI, that it was Audrey Bell who gave that envelope to Nolan, right?

But tell me something - Bell told the HSCA 15 years later that she carefully place 4 tiny fragments from Connally's wrist into a plastic box which she then placed in an envelope. She told the ARRB exactly the same thing 34 years later. And she labelled the envelope as containing "fragments" from Connally's arm.

So, if she could remember that for over three decades, why was she unable to remember it for the 10 or 15 minutes after she processed that envelope on 11/22/63? How could she have forgotten and told Wade, Nolan and Stinson that it contained a single bullet from Connally's gurney?? And this was not just any nurse. She was the supervisor of nurses in the Parkland emergency room. She had been an RN for 16 years at the time.

And don't you find it strange that Wade, whom you are sure, only looked at an envelope, and Nolan, never noticed that the envelope was labelled as containing "fragments from the arm".

And isn't it an amazing coincidence that she also told them the bullet came from Connally's gurney and that Connally said the bullet fell from his gurney onto the floor??

Come on David. Stop running. Explain to us why those witnesses said what they did and why their statements were so consistent with one another.

Bob's laughter begins, as he cannot believe that ANYONE in 2012 would still place an ounce of faith in anything the US Govt. or the DPD or the FBI told him about the JFK evidence.

Why do you continue to misrepresent me? You know very well that the ONLY agency I have ever accused of something like this, is the FBI - no exceptions, other than the WW3 thing which was essentially benign. But I get it David. I've been in JFK forums for a long time and was a moderator in two of them. The trashtalk and ad hominem almost always comes when some clown is in a corner. I've seen it happen a thousand times.

Address the facts and the evidence David. After you do that, then call me all names and do the trashtalk. But FIRST - talk about the facts and the evidence. That's all that matters.

#23 David Von Pein

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 10:49 AM

Already done it, Bob. Many times. You just don't like the answers.

Fact is: The only bullet associated with JBC's wounds is CE399. That's a FACT that was accepted as a FACT by both the WC & HSCA, and no amount of foot-stomping done by Robert Harris (or anyone else) is going to change that fact.

Ever wonder why (or how!) both the WC and HSCA could accept CE399 as the SBT bullet if it has such a rotten chain of possession (and if your other theories re Connally, Stinson, Bell, and Nolan are accurate)?

Was the HSCA just incredibly stupid, Bob? Or are they supposedly in on the "cover-up" too?

Edited by David Von Pein, 29 September 2012 - 10:49 AM.


#24 Robert Harris

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 01:58 PM

Already done it, Bob. Many times. You just don't like the answers.

Refresh my memory David. What was your explanation for why Bell told those men that this was a single bullet that was from Connally's gurney, rather than four tiny fragments recovered from his wrist during surgery?

Maybe you could just cut 'n paste your previous explanation.

The only bullet associated with JBC's wounds is CE399. That's a FACT that was accepted as a FACT by both the WC & HSCA, and no amount of foot-stomping done by Robert Harris (or anyone else) is going to change that fact.

David, you remind me of radical theists I have debated with re: religion. They endlessly proclaim that god made the universe and that their bible or koran is a FACT. Of course, they have exactly the same amount of support for their assertion that you have for yours. Absolute zero.

Ever wonder why (or how!) both the WC and HSCA could accept CE399 as the SBT bullet if it has such a rotten chain of possession (and if your other theories re Connally, Stinson, Bell, and Nolan are accurate)?

Yes, I did but only for a little while. The WC was obviously suspicious after Tomlinson testified that the bullet didn't come from Connally's stretcher, so they told the FBI to get confirmation from the four men who first examined that bullet.

But since all four refused to confirm CE399, they lied to the WC and told them that SA Odum got a partial confirmation and that FBI agent Todd confirmed that his initials were on the bullet. Of course, we know that both of those claims were lies.

Was the HSCA just incredibly stupid, Bob?

Well, actually they were exactly that, and on many other issues, but that's for another thread.

#25 Mike Rago

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 04:01 PM

Both of you need to watch this video very carefully. You are talking about two different bullets. The pristine bullet passed through the presidents body and grazed, or hit Connally on his left side. As Connally turned back to his right he was hit by the second bullet which missed Kennedy completely. It was the second bullet which caused all the damage to Connally.

Watch Kennedy and Connally, they react simultaneously to the first bullet.
Connally is hit by second bullet as he turns back to his right.

Edited by Mike Rago, 02 October 2012 - 08:03 PM.


#26 Robert Harris

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 07:22 PM

Refresh my memory David. What was your explanation for why Bell told those men that this was a single bullet that was from Connally's gurney, rather than four tiny fragments recovered from his wrist during surgery?

Maybe you could just cut 'n paste your previous explanation.


Take your time David. Honest young man that you are, I'm sure didn't lie about addressing those questions. Just cite your response - verbatim, please.

#27 Mike Rago

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 07:28 PM

The bullet we know as CE 399 went directly to the SS at Parkland (via Wright). It did not pass through the Dallas Police Department.

The bullet fragment that you claim a nurse gave to Ranger Nolan went ultimately to the Dallas Police Department and Captain Firtz.

Nurse bell also delivers 4 small fragments to the Dallas Police Department.

We do not know what Captain Fritz gave to the FBI.

The next day the FBI interviews Nolan and mentions the word fragment.
Nolan did not know what was in that envelope, he never looked.

You accuse the FBI of a lot of lying and I believe you are wrong about that.

When you realize we are talking about two bullets, not one, a whole lot of lying goes away.

http://www.ctka.net/...ll_Article.html


Regarding John Hunt, apparently, he did not examine the actual bullet, he only examined photographs of the bullet. If that is indeed the case he cannot state , as a fact, that Todd's initials are not on that bullet.

Edited by Mike Rago, 29 September 2012 - 07:44 PM.


#28 Mike Rago

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 07:47 PM

Bardwell Odum admitted to Thompson and Aguilar that he never showed CE 399 to Wright. Therefore the FBI lied.

When Thompson showed the witness, Wright, CE 399, he said that was not the bullet he turned over originally.

How many years after the fact did that statement occur? Was it 40 years later?

Here is what Tomlinson said about it in CE 2011. "It looks similar"
Posted Image

Edited by Mike Rago, 29 September 2012 - 08:28 PM.


#29 Mike Rago

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 07:55 PM

The above is a lie by Rago,or whatever his name is.

I said Wright, and it was four years.

Repeat, why is he still here under an assumed name when its clear he is a troll?


There was no lie in my statement. You need to be careful.

According to CE 2011 here is what O.P. Wright said

"On June 12, 1964, O.P. Wright, Personnel Officer, Parkland Hospital, Dallas, Texas, advised Special Agent Bardwell D. Odum that Exhibit C1, a rifle slug, shown to him at the time of the interview, looks like the slug found at Parkland Hospital on November 22, 1963, which he gave to Richard Johnsen, Special Agent of the Secret Service. He stated he was not present at the time the bullet was found, but on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, as he entered the Emergency Unit on the ground floor of the hospital, Mr. Tomlinson, an employee, called to him and pointed out a bullet, which was on a hospital carriage at that location. He estimated the time as being within an hour of the time President Kennedy and Governor Connally were brought to the hospital. He advised he could not postiviely identify C1 as being the same bullet which was found on November 22, 1963."


I believe that Bardwell Odum spoke to Josiah Thompson in 2002. That would make it 38 years after the fact.

http://www.aarclibra...H24_CE_2011.pdf

http://www.history-m...MoreMagical.htm

The stretcher bullet was at FBI HQ before Todd ever picked it up.


As the markings on this envelope clearly indicate, Todd received the bullet on 11/22/1963 at 8:50 PM Eastern Time.
Posted Image

Edited by Mike Rago, 29 September 2012 - 08:42 PM.


#30 Robert Harris

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 10:35 PM

The bullet we know as CE 399 went directly to the SS at Parkland (via Wright). It did not pass through the Dallas Police Department.

The bullet fragment that you claim a nurse gave to Ranger Nolan went ultimately to the Dallas Police Department and Captain Firtz.

Nurse bell also delivers 4 small fragments to the Dallas Police Department.

We do not know what Captain Fritz gave to the FBI.

The next day the FBI interviews Nolan and mentions the word fragment.
Nolan did not know what was in that envelope, he never looked.

You accuse the FBI of a lot of lying and I believe you are wrong about that.

When you realize we are talking about two bullets, not one, a whole lot of lying goes away.

http://www.ctka.net/...ll_Article.html


Regarding John Hunt, apparently, he did not examine the actual bullet, he only examined photographs of the bullet. If that is indeed the case he cannot state , as a fact, that Todd's initials are not on that bullet.


First of all, CE399 was not the bullet that Tomlinson found. And Bell did not deliver her envelope to the DPD. She gave it to two plain clothed agents, probably from the FBI, in her office. She then had one of them sign a receipt and sent the receipt to administration at the hospital. But rather than re-explain all of this, I would prefer to direct you to the article which contains all the documented facts related to this issue. They are MUCH different than what you seem to believe.

Please read it all. The most important parts are toward the end.

http://jfkhistory.co...ellArticle.html




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