Harvey and Lee: John Armstrong

[Greg Parker]

For the uninitiated and newbie, if the above Stripling information is accurate , then the Harvey and Lee hypothesis is solid and correct. ,gaal

For those who have at least two firing brain cells... you need to be on some some heavy duty mind-altering drugs for it to be "correct".

Really, Greg? You write about "two firing brain cells" ... "mind-altering drugs".... "to be 'correct''? Are you going to edit the above quote so those offending words are gone?

Allow me, then, to re-post below what you just typed above before you wisely edit it out:

================ GREG PARKER QUOTE ON =================

"For those who have at least two firing brain cells... you need to be on some some heavy duty mind-altering drugs for it to be "correct".

================ GREG PARKER QUOTE OFF ================

You simply have to work MUCH HARDER, Greg! These one-line attacks made against John's obvious and genuine scholarship are going to look bad forever.

You are, however, inspiring me to quote MUCH more from Harvey and Lee. So far, the author has given me carte blanche. We all expect MUCH better from you!!!

1. I never self-sensor - despite your idiotic claims that I have done so in the past.

2. That's one difference between us. I don't need anyone's permission to post research - cos it's my own! But that's life for you in a cult, isn't it? Always needing permission to spread the Holy Writ.

[Thomas Graves]

WOW! Nor a WORD from ...

Thomas Graves

Sheeesh!

Relax Jim.

Take some deep breaths. In through the nose, out through the mouth. That's right. Good.

Feel better already, don't you.

The reason I didn't see your increasingly frantic posts is because I was busy doing some actual research for another thread. (Have you ever done any actual research, Jim?)

What I was trying to do is locate and determine how far away the Monterey Motel (where ten Cuban exiles driving into New Orleans from Miami on 7/24/63 allegedly spent the night because both cars "broke down") was from the "Big 7 Road" camp near Lacombe. Any of that mean anything to you, Jim? (Hint: log in to eBay and type in Monterey Motel New Orleans to get the address off of a couple of old postcards -- the motel no longer exists -- it's now the location of a Fuel Zone convenience store.)

In case you're interested, you can read all about it on Chris Newton's excellent thread "Lacombe Training Camp Location part duex [sic]".

Now, to answer your question, heck no, I haven't read Harvey and Lee! Why the heck would I want to waste my time doing given its patently ridiculous premises -- 1 ) that two young boys (and their mothers!) were chosen by the bad guys to participate in an elaborate double-doppelganger project, and that the bad guys somehow knew that the two boys would grow up to look very similar (when necessary) and very different (when necessary); ditto their mothers after they were already adults, 2 ) that "Lee" was (evidently) moved around and hidden in "safe" houses for two-and-one-half years so that he wouldn't bump into any of his friends and acquaintances while "Harvey" was in the USSR, and 3 ) that both "Lee's" and "Harvey's" families were "in on" the project all the way, and have miraculously been able to keep from "spilling the beans" / "letting the cat out of the bag" on it, both before and after the assassination, for about 60 years now. Seems to me the bad guys would have killed them all a long time ago to prevent that from happening. But then again maybe that wasn't necessary because the bad guys just MKULTRed all of them into obedient, zombie-like silence and obfuscation. That's it, isn't it, Jim.

(Speaking of beans, I think Armstrong must have eaten a 55-gallon drum of them and the resultant gas caused him to come up with these weirdo ideas. Or maybe it was... mushrooms?)

But to tell you the truth, Jim, I'm starting to entertain the idea that H&L is nothing but an elaborate CIA "disinfo project," designed to divide and confuse the JFK research community.

But for now, Jim, I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt, and I'm gonna assume that you're just suffering from the effects of the Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy and its psychological corollary,the Clustering Illusion syndrome.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_sharpshooter_fallacy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clustering_illusion

--Tommy

Bumped for Jim Hargrove.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Bernie Laverick]

WOW! Nor a WORD from ...

Thomas Graves

Sheeesh!

Relax Jim.

Take some deep breaths. In through the nose, out through the mouth. That's right. Good.

Feel better already, don't you.

The reason I didn't see your increasingly frantic posts is because I was busy doing some actual research for another thread. (Have you ever done any actual research, Jim?)

What I was trying to do is locate and determine how far away the Monterey Motel (where ten Cuban exiles driving into New Orleans from Miami on 7/24/63 allegedly spent the night because both cars "broke down") was from the "Big 7 Road" camp near Lacombe. Any of that mean anything to you, Jim? (Hint: log in to eBay and type in Monterey Motel New Orleans to get the address off of a couple of old postcards -- the motel no longer exists -- it's now the location of a Fuel Zone convenience store.)

In case you're interested, you can read all about it on Chris Newton's excellent thread "Lacombe Training Camp Location part duex [sic]".

Now, to answer your question, heck no, I haven't read Harvey and Lee! Why the heck would I want to waste my time doing given its patently ridiculous premises -- 1 ) that two young boys (and their mothers!) were chosen by the bad guys to participate in an elaborate double-doppelganger project, and that the bad guys somehow knew that the two boys would grow up to look very similar (when necessary) and very different (when necessary); ditto their mothers after they were already adults, 2 ) that "Lee" was (evidently) moved around and hidden in "safe" houses for two-and-one-half years so that he wouldn't bump into any of his friends and acquaintances while "Harvey" was in the USSR, and 3 ) that both "Lee's" and "Harvey's" families were "in on" the project all the way, and have miraculously been able to keep from "spilling the beans" / "letting the cat out of the bag" on it, both before and after the assassination, for about 60 years now. Seems to me the bad guys would have killed them all a long time ago to prevent that from happening. But then again maybe that wasn't necessary because the bad guys just MKULTRed all of them into obedient, zombie-like silence and obfuscation. That's it, isn't it, Jim.

(Speaking of beans, I think Armstrong must have eaten a 55-gallon drum of them and the resultant gas caused him to come up with these weirdo ideas. Or maybe it was... mushrooms?)

But to tell you the truth, Jim, I'm starting to entertain the idea that H&L is nothing but an elaborate CIA "disinfo project," designed to divide and confuse the JFK research community.

But for now, Jim, I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt, and I'm gonna assume that you're just suffering from the effects of the Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy and its psychological corollary,the Clustering Illusion syndrome.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_sharpshooter_fallacy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clustering_illusion

--Tommy

Bumped for Jim Hargrove.

Bump.

[Jim Hargrove]

Harvey and Lee

The Fraudulent 1956 Tax Return

From Harvey and Lee, pp. 154-155:

February--Oswald's 1956 income tax return

Following the assassination of President Kennedy, FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover

notified the Warren Commission that Oswald's 1955 tax return had been routinely de-

stroyed by the Internal Revenue Service (IRS). They allegedly obtained a copy of his

1956 Federal income tax return (Commission Exhibit 90a) from the IRS on December

16, 1963, two days before the Commission requested they obtain the records.

The 1956 return was allegedly filled out by Oswald, signed, and mailed to the

IRS on February 7, 1957. The return was allegedly received by the District Director of

the Internal Revenue office in Fort Worth, Dallas, TX. the following day, February 8.^57-03

NOTE: It is difficult to believe the return was mailed from Camp Pendleton, Califor-

nia on February 7, 1957 and received in Dallas only one day later, on February 8,

1957.

The 1956 tax return (short form) given to the Warren Commission listed three

employers (J.R. Michels, Gerard F. Tujague, Pfisterer Dental Lab), their addresses,

gross wages, and withholding taxes. The information listed on this return is identical

with the income listed on the fabricated W-2 forms for J.R. Michels, Gerard F. Tujague,

Inc., and the Pfisterer Dental Lab. At first glance there appears to be no reason to

question either the single page tax return or the W-2 forms. On closer inspection, however,

there are enough errors and omissions to suggest that the 1956 return, like the W-2 forms, was

fabricated.

One error was the address listed for the J.R. Michels Company. On the 1956

return it was listed as 805 American Bank Bldg., but their office was located at on the 2nd

floor of 442 Canal Street in the Sanlin Building.

NOTE: The address on Oswald's 1956 income tax return and address on the J. R.

Michels W-2 form was the same address listed on cancelled payroll check which Nick

Mazza gave to the FBI on November 25, 1963; it was not the companies business

address at 442 Canal Street.

The most significant error, however, was that the return failed to include Oswald's

Marines Corps earnings of $111.00 on his 1956 tax return.⁶ It is difficult to believe that

Oswald, who had been in the Marines for the past 4 1/2 months and was in the Marines

when he allegedly signed and mailed the return, forgot to include this income. His Ma-

$111.00, was more than he allegedly earned from Gerard F. Tujague, Inc.

($80.46) or J.R. Michels ($80) in 1956.

Oswald's Marine Corps income may not have been included on the fabricated

1956 return for one simple reason. When the return was given to the Warren Commis-

sion, in December 1963, Oswald's income from the Marines was unknown. In fact,

Oswald's Marine Corps earnings remained unknown for the next 9 months. In Sep-

tember, 1964 the Department of the Navy finally provided certified payroll records to

the Commission. ^57-04

According to information on the 1956 tax return, Oswald should have received

a refund check in the amount of $64.70. Yet the FBI apparently made no attempt to

obtain a copy of the cancelled check, nor is there any indication that either Oswald or

Marguerite received or cashed such a check.

NOTE: The alleged refund check of $64.70 represented most of the federal income tax

that was allegedly withheld by J.R. Michels, Tujague's. and Pfisterer's. But if Oswald

never worked at Pfisterer's in 1956, then the IRS could not have issued a refund check

which consisted mostly of withholding taxes from Pfisterer's. In all probability, Oswald

never received a refund chick in the amount of $64.70, because one was never issued.

Once again, we see evidence that the FBI failed to conduct an honest investigation into

Oswald's background and we understand why. The purpose of the fabricated W-2 form,

and the fabricated 1956 tax return (one page short form), was simply to create the

illusion that Oswald worked at the Pfisterer Dental Laboratory in 1956, instead of

1957-58 as reported by Palmer McBride.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Jim Hargrove

[Jim Hargrove]

Harvey and Lee

The Fraudulent 1956 W-2 Forms

All the U.S. Government's “evidence” about “Lee Harvey Oswald's” employment in 1956 by J.R. Michels, Tujaques, Dolly Shoe and Pfisterer Dental Lab is fabricated, just like the so called 1956 tax return allegedly filled out by “Lee Harvey Oswald” which failed to include his Marine Corps income. Below is John's write-up explaining how and why the J.R. Michels W-2 form was fabricated.

From Harvey and Lee, pp. 138-140:

J. R. Michels W-2 form

According to the Warren Commission, the Dallas Police found the J. R. Michels

W-2 form among Oswald's possessions after the assassination. Each item found by Dallas

Police officers was initialed, dated, listed on their handwritten inventory, typed at Dallas

Police headquarters, and later printed in the Warren Volumes as Stovall Exhibit A & B

(items found at the Paine residence) and Turner Exhibit #1 (items found at 1026 N.

Beckley), and photographed. But the J.R. Michels W-2 form in the National Archives was not

initialed by Dallas Police officers, was not dated, was not listed on their inventory, and was not

photographed on the floor of the police station on November 22 or November 23.

Oswald's possessions were secretly removed from Dallas Police headquarters on

November 23 and taken to FBI headquarters in Washington, DC. The J.R. Michels W-

2 form was created between November 23 and November 25, probably at FBI headquar-

ters where it was initialed by laboratory technician Robert Frazier ("RF"). It was then

included among the items of evidence that were secretly returned to the Dallas Police

on November 26. The fabricated J.R. Michels W-2 form was then photographed by the

Dallas Police, and listed as item 175 on the joint FBI/Dallas Police inventory of Novem-

ber 26, 1963.⁵ The "items of evidence," including the J.R. Michels W-2 form, were then

returned within a few hours to FBI headquarters in Washington.

The joint Dallas Police/FBI inventory, published in Warren Volume 24, p. 334,

gave the J.R. Michels W-2 form the appearance of "legitimacy." In reality the J.R.

Michels W-2 form, and many other items of evidence, were fabricated in Washington,

DC while Oswald's possessions were in FBI custody from November 23-25, 1963.

NOTE: The J.R. Michels W-2 form ^56-03 was one of five W-2 forms listed on the joint

Dallas Police/FBI inventory of November 26, 1963 (the others are Dolly Shoe ^56-04,

Tujague's ^56-05/06, and the Pfisterer Dental Laboratory ^56-07). None of these W-2 forms con-

tains the initials of the Dallas Police detectives, none are listed in the DPD inventory of

November 22 and 23 (Stovall A ^56-08/09, Stovall B ^56-10, and Turner Ex. No 1^56-11/12), and

none were photographed in Dallas on November 22nd and 23rd. But all of the W-2 forms

contain the initials of FBI lab technician Robert Frazier (RF), and all appear on the

joint FBI/DPD inventory of November 26. Between November 23 and November 26,

all of these W-2 forms were fabricated while in FBI custody and were included among

Oswald's possessions when returned to the Dallas Police.

The most obvious sign of fabrication is the fact that all five W-2 forms, allegedly issued

by different companies in 1955 and 1956, were typed on the same typewriter-each W-2

form contains the same identical typewritten characters. To show that all of the W-2 forms

were typed with the same typewriter I made transparencies of the W-2 forms and then

overlaid them as indicated below:

* 1955 Dolly Shoe W-2 over 1955 Tujague W-2 ^56-13

* 1955 Dolly Shoe W-2 over 1956 Pfisterer W-2 ^56-14

* 1956 Pfisterer W-2 over 1956 Tujague W-2 ^56-15

Did Oswald actually work at J.R. Michels?

When I met with Frank DiBenedetto, I told him the Warren Commission said

that Oswald began working at J.R. Michels the day after he quit Tujague's. Frank told

me, "Oswald didn't work there (at J.R. Michels). He couldn't have worked there. We

are on the 3rd floor of this building (Sanlin Building, 442 Canal Street) and they were

one floor below us. We were in the same business. I was very good friends with Nick

(Mazza), the manager of J.R. Michels, and was in his offices nearly every day. We went

to lunch often and were good friends. If Oswald had worked for Nick, I would have

known it."⁶

The short, thin, Harvey Oswald could have worked at J .R. Michels for a few days

in January, 1956. If Frank visited J.R. Michels' office during this time, he would have no

reason to associate Harvey with the tall, well-built Lee Oswald who worked at Tujague's.

The J.R. Michels company had no employment file for Oswald, no payroll

records, no W-4 form, no copies of quarterly withholding tax filings, no year end W-2

forms, and no one remembered that Oswald worked there, including manager Nick

Mazza. The W-2 and W-4 forms allegedly obtained by the FBI are fabrications, yet they

were given to the Commission and are now located in the National Archives. The one

piece of evidence that may have been original, Oswald's payroll check found by Nick

Mazza, does not agree with the amounts listed on the W-2 form and disappeared while

in FBI custody. In the final analysis there is no proof that Harvey Oswald worked at J.R.

Michels, even though the Bureau created documentation which made it appear as though he did.

NOTE: The W-2 form, and possibly the payroll check found by Nick Mazza, may have

been fabricated in order to create the illusion that Oswald worked a few days at J.R.

Michels after his employment at Tujague's ended on January 14. It was crucial that the

FBI and/or the Warren Commission ''prove" that Oswald's employment at Tujague's

ended in January, because they desperately needed to show that Oswald worked at the

Pfisterer Dental Laboratory in the spring of 1956, before he returned to Fort Worth and

before he joined the Marines in October.

Pfisterer Dental Laboratory

The FBI became aware of Oswald's employment at the Pfisterer Dental Labo-

ratory through their interview with Palmer Edwin McBride on the evening of Novem-

ber 22nd, 1963. McBride told the FBI he met Oswald while working at the dental lab

in late 1957 and had worked with him until May of 1958.^{56-16/17/18/19}

When the FBI realized that Marine Corps records showed that "Lee Harvey

Oswald" was in Japan from September 1957 thru November 1958, they faced a serious

problem that threatened to expose the two Oswald's. ^56-20 Quite simply, one "Lee Harvey

Oswald" could not have been in New Orleans and Japan at the same time, and certainly

not for 8 months.

. . . .

Edited August 25, 2015 by Jim Hargrove

[Jim Hargrove]

Harvey and Lee

Social Security Didn't Lie about 1956

Why didn't the Social Security Admin count any of Oswald's employment income prior to the time he joined the U.S. Marine Corps?

According to SSA and IRS records, Oswald's income in 1962 and 1963, after he left the Marine Corps, was as follows:

Employer: William B. Reily & Co. = $422.25 and $191.25

Employer: Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall = $727.80 and $945.69 and $121.67

Employer: Leslie Welding = $636.50

Employer: Texas Book Depository = $261.68

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Grand Total = $3306.85

After Lee HARVEY Oswald was killed, and less than a month after receiving a completed "Application for Survivors Insurance Benefits" form filled out by Marina, the SSA office in Dallas had completed a "Determination of Award" form.

According to the Social Security Administration's “Determination of Award” form, the lifetime earnings of "Lee Harvey Oswald" amounted to $3306.85, exactly the amount of his 1962 and 1963 income. But what about Oswald's earlier income from Dolly Shoe, Tujague's, J.R. Michaels, and Pfisterer Dental Lab? Why isn't it included by the SSA? There are supposedly legitimate W-2 forms showing Social Security information for those employers as well. (You can see ALL the documents referred to here at: http://harveyandlee.net/Unraveling/Unravels.htm)

On May 15, 1978, the House Select Committee on Assassinations chief counsel Robert Blakey wrote to the Social Security Administration requesting "access to all files and documents concerning or referring to Lee Harvey Oswald and Marina Oswald." On July 28, Social Security Administration associate commissioner Robert P. Bynum formally responded. In a three-page cover letter to Ms. Jackie Hess, an HSCA employee, Bynum cited 36 different documents that were being forwarded from the Social Security Administration to the HSCA.

Item 23 in the letter from the Social Security Administration to the HSCA states: "Copies of three pages of the Warren Commission Report re employment of Lee Harvey Oswald prior to service in the Marine Corps."

Why didn't the Social Security Administration include any of Oswald's income from his first four employers in his lifetime earnings report? And why on earth was the Warren Report offered as an explanation?

The pre-Marine income reports of "Lee Harvey Oswald" are fraudulent. Why?

More about this topic, including all the documents referenced above, can be found HERE.

I'm STILL waiting for someone... ANYONE... to explain why the Social Security Administration failed to count ANY of "Lee Harvey Oswald's" teenage employment income in his lifetime earnings report. After all, the FBI told us there were perfectly good W-2 forms from Dolly Shoe, Tujague's, J.R. Michaels, and Pfisterer Dental Lab for those LHO formative years. And then they showed us fine copies of the W-2 forms, which certainly would have been forwarded to the Social Security Administration regardless of anyone's opinion of Lee HARVEY Oswald and his teenage angst.

So why didn't the SSA include that income in "Oswald's" final earnings report? And why were "Copies of three pages of the Warren Commission Report re employment of Lee Harvey Oswald prior to service in the Marine Corps." offered by SSA as an explanation?

Is there a cover-up going all the way back to "Oswald's" teenage years?

Of course there is.

Read the proof here:

http://harveyandlee....ng/Unravels.htm

Edited August 25, 2015 by Jim Hargrove

[Glenn Nall]

WOW! Nor a WORD from ...

Thomas Graves

Sheeesh!

whether he answers or not, I'm thinkin' the answer is pretty clear... but that's just me...

[Steven Gaal]

TOP 10 REASONS TO BELIEVE IN HARVEY AND LEE

10. The IMPOSSIBLE 1953 school scenario: Harvey at Youth House for truancy followed by Beauregard JHS in New Orleans while Lee has good attendance both semesters at PS 44 in NYC.

9. John Pic's inability to recognize clear photographs of his own brother.

8. The refusal of the Social Security Administration to corroborate the official story of "Oswald's" pre-1962 income, offering instead "Copies of three pages of the Warren Commission Report regarding employment of Lee Harvey Oswald prior to service in the Marine Corps."

7. The Marine Corps records are a gold mine: my favorite chronicles Harvey Oswald's trip to Formosa (Taiwan) while Lee was being treated for VD in Japan.

6. The Bolton Ford incident while Harvey was in Russia.

5. Marita Lorenz's secret testimony describing Lee Oswald with anti-Castro operatives in Miami and the Everglades while Harvey was in Russia.

4. Lee Oswald visiting the Texas Employment Commission, filling out forms and taking tests, while Harvey was in Russia.

3. The impossible answer(s) to the simple questions: Could Lee Harvey Oswald drive a car? Did he have a drivers license?

2. The well documented appearance of Lee Oswald in the balcony of the Texas Theater soon after the murder of J.D. Tippit with the simultaneous arrest of Harvey Oswald on the main floor of the same theater.

1. The behavior of the FBI in the first 48 hours of the "investigation," during which the Bureau confiscated many of "Lee Harvey Oswald's" school records and employment histories. Six months later, the Bureau decided to test for fingerprints on boxes in the so-called "sniper's nest."

Jim,

But the reason gullible True Believers like you swallow the H & L Dogma "hook, line, and sinker" is twofold: 1 ) It's a perfect example of the Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy, and 2 ) as such it facilitates and encourages your continuing application of The Clustering Illusion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_sharpshooter_fallacy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clustering_illusion

--Tommy

Tommy..

Please tell the truth. HAVE YOU ACTUALLY READ HARVEY & LEE?

Jim

Russian Spy Ring Aimed to Make Children Agents

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10000872396390444097904577537044185191340

===================================================================

Jim

Graves seems to have never read book. gaal

Have you read the article?

The "children" turns out to be one. And he was 20. And his parents deny they tried to recruit saying probably quite rightly, it would have been too risky.

The clincher that the story is BS is that they claim the 20 year old stood up and saluted "Mother Russia" when the parents tried to get him to join them. That is just too corny for words.

You guys a are a crack up.

Have you read the article? planned to recruit children, see link below . ,gaal

==========================

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10000872396390444097904577537044185191340

By

Devlin Barrett Updated July 31, 2012 4:13 p.m. ET

"A Russian spy ring busted in the U.S. two years ago planned to recruit members' children to become agents, and one had already agreed to his parents' request, according to current and former U.S. officials."

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

link to info below >> http://www.covertbookreport.com/spy-kids-the-russians-the-finders-and-the-family/

"It seems quite possible that nearly every country in the world may have some similar operation going on – with the intent of penetrating various government agencies. But things get weirder and weirder. Here’s a piece I wrote on “The Finders” in 2010:

Did The Finders Create a “Bourne Identity”?

Suppose you have a thirty-year cult, run by a southern eccentric with ties to the Central Intelligence Agency.

Suppose that cult raised children in austere surroundings combined with advanced education, perhaps to be used by said intelligence agency?

Suppose that cult was investigated for child abuse/neglect but the investigation was shut down for “National Security” reasons?

Sound like something out of a movie? Young “Jason Bournes” being created, nurtured and trained for future use? Well, something like that seems to have happened in “The Finders” cult.

The unraveling of “The Finders” case brought to the forefront many long-rumored stories about possible child trafficking as well as those about children being trained for use as spies and assassins.

In February 1987, a tip to the police led to the arrest of two “well dressed men” in a park in Tallahassee Florida. The men appeared to be “supervising” a group of six disheveled and hungry children. The men, who were based out of Washington D.C., were charged with child abuse. The D.C. police raided a house and warehouse, where they found many items that implicated “The Finders” cult in international intrigue and what appears to be ritual sacrifice of animals. The children were temporarily moved to an undisclosed location under armed guard due to threats to authorities.

This all sounds like typical internet rumor-mongering, except the story was carried by The New York Times and U.S. News And World Report.

The smoking gun was a report by U.S. Customs agent Ramon Martinez. Customs was called in to investigate a possible link to child pornography or child trafficking, and the Martinez document is shocking. There were indeed photos of many children, some naked. This in itself is not surprising due to the commune-type upbringing of The Finders. There were also photos of members in white robes, with the children, in what appears to be ritual sacrifice of goats. The Finders claim it was merely typical harvesting of animals on a farm, but the children actively participated in the disembowelment.

At the time of the arrest, despite the “well dressed” appearance of the adult men, the children seemed to have no knowledge of such things as electricity and hot running water. In a strange twist, they seemed highly educated. Details of what was found in the warehouse and the customs report can be read in this report by Dave McGowan.

Other items seized from the finders included Telex messages about obtaining children from Hong Kong, international money transfers, and this, from the Martinez report:

“Further inspection of the premises disclosed numerous files relating to activities of the organization in different parts of the world. Locations I observed are as follows: London, Germany, the Bahamas, Japan, Hong Kong, Malaysia, Africa, Costa Rica, and ‘Europe.’ There was also a file identified as ‘Palestinian.’ Other files were identified by member name or ‘project’ name. The projects appearing to be operated for commercial purposes under front names for the Finders. There was one file entitled ‘Pentagon Break-In,’ and others referring to members operating in foreign countries”.

Everything in this case points to a possible prosecution for child abuse, but the investigation was shut down for National Security reasons.

Marion Pettie was the leader of “The Finders” cult. Described as a tall, well-built southern gentleman, Pettie maintained a large property in Culpepper Virginia and the locations that were raided in Washington D.C.

He has admitted that his wife had worked for the CIA and that his son flew for the CIA airline “Air America”, long known for it’s drug-trafficking exploits in Southeast Asia.

In an excellent interview in the Washington “City Paper”, Pettie described his role as “Game Caller”. He instructed his followers to live by the day, hour, minute. He would send them on “projects”, often to foreign countries. All the Finders men dressed like FBI agents, in conservative dark suits. Not exactly your typical hippie-cult attire.

At the dawn of the computer era, Pettie recruited a talented computer engineer who trained members of The Finders in computer technology. They went on to run a project for – you guessed it, The CIA.

Pettie openly admits that he ran a safe house for members of intelligence agencies, from The Office of Navel Intelligence, to the OSS, to any spook that needed a place to hang out. He claims he would “study them”.

The children that were found in the park with the “well-dressed men” were returned to their mothers and the cult. The investigation was dropped.

The most recent information I could research on The Finders was a blog post by a guy named Michael Phillips. Phillips claims to have met The Finders in San Francisco in the 1970’s. Phillips respects the group, and thinks they had innovative ideas. Several Finders-type comments followed his blog post, one saying that Pettie and other founding members were now dead, and thanked him for the kind words. Phillips had just proof-read a 550-page manuscript of a book on the finders by member Robert “Tobe” Terrell.

Another questionable report on a New Zealand Indymedia blog said that The Finders had relocated to Taiwan. I don’t know about that.

——–

We will never know the true story of “The Finders”, what they were training the children for, or the source of their wealth. The Washington “City Paper” article says that some former members were suing Pettie and the remaining estate of the cult.

The articles I researched are split into at least three categories. The right-wing writers focus on Satanic ritual abuse. The left side suspects the children may have been programed to be spies or assassins. People like the blogger Phillips suggest they were just elaborate role-playing adventurers.

It is well known that intelligence agencies run programs resembling The Finders, such as the Kool-Aid massacres in Jonestown. It’s easy to pull a Sirhan-Sirhan or Lee Harvey Oswald out of these groups when they need one.

But let’s close with this chilling conclusion to the report of U.S. Customs officer Martinez:

“On April 2, 1987, I arrived at MPD at approximately 9:00 a.m. Detective Bradley was not available. I spoke to a third party who was willing to discuss the case with me on a strictly ‘off the record’ basis.

“I was advised that all the passport data had been turned over to the State Department for their investigation. The State Department in turn, advised the MPD that all travel and use of the passports by the holders of the passports was within the law and no action would be taken. This included travel to Moscow, North Korea, and North Vietnam from the late 1950s to mid 1970s.

“The individual further advised me of circumstances which indicated that the investigation into the activity of the Finders had become a CIA internal matter. The MPD report has been classified SECRET and was not available for review. I was advised that the FBI had withdrawn from the investigation several weeks prior and that the FBI Foreign Counter Intelligence Division had directed MPD not to advise the FBI Washington Field Office of anything that had transpired.

“No further information will be available. No further action will be taken.” "

———————————————–

UPDATE:

The spy aged EIGHT: How American forces recruited a young boy to plant a chip on his stepfather – an Al Qaeda target in Yemen – so they could kill him in a drone strikeNew allegations claim that an 8-year-old Yemeni boy who was abandoned by his biological family was then roped back into their clutches

The boy’s biological father works for the Yemeni Republican Guard, which helps U.S. forces, and they asked have an al Qaeda operative located

That operative had been added to the U.S. ‘kill list’

The Republican Guard knew that one of their officer’s children had been taken in by that target, Adnan al-Qadhi, so they called the biological father and asked him to have his son place the chip on the surrogate father

The boy complied and days later, Qadhi was killed in a drone strike

By Daily Mail Reporter

PUBLISHED: 18:21 EST, 15 August 2013 | UPDATED: 09:10 EST, 16 August 2013

Edited September 1, 2015 by Steven Gaal

[Glenn Nall]

for what it's worth, integrous, subjective and honest researchers and reviewers read BOTH sides of an issue before attempting any kind of subjective judgement. that's just plain responsible research.

if I TRULY want to know the truth, then i CANNOT be afraid to read literature from "the other side." I cannot be confident in my convictions if I have NOT weighed them against alternatives. For instance, inwardly I cannot in any way see how Gen Walker could be a major leader in something of this size. BUT - In my honest quest for TRUTH, i have refrained from blasting it since I have read nothing to speak of on the subject. I can only solidify my convictions when i've satisfactorily refuted the rest for myself.

And I CANNOT honestly lambast the opposing theories if I haven't actually read the research first. key word being 'honestly.'

I cannot imagine being so vehemently against anything without first having actually studied what it is about it that I find improbable, impossible or just plain stupid. that'd be stupid.

but maybe that's just me.

EDIT: I mean, there's even an option having been presented that ---> an alien presence plays a large role in this thing. Now, everything in me wants to scream "are you effin' kidding me?" But this 'option' coming from a most reputable person, and since i do my best to adhere to an honest approach to theories both comfortable and not so much (i said 'do my best to', not 'do'), i refrain from bucking at this quite astronomic idea. It comes from a respectful source, and - with a certain few in mind: who the hell am I to pass judgement on someone else's opinions? effin' God?

Edited August 25, 2015 by Glenn Nall

[Bernie Laverick]

for what it's worth, integrous, subjective and honest researchers and reviewers read BOTH sides of an issue before attempting any kind of subjective judgement. that's just plain responsible research.

if I TRULY want to know the truth, then i CANNOT be afraid to read literature from "the other side." I cannot be confident in my convictions if I have NOT weighed them against alternatives. For instance, inwardly I cannot in any way see how Gen Walker could be a major leader in something of this size. BUT - In my honest quest for TRUTH, i have refrained from blasting it since I have read nothing to speak of on the subject. I can only solidify my convictions when i've satisfactorily refuted the rest for myself.

And I CANNOT honestly lambast the opposing theories if I haven't actually read the research first. key word being 'honestly.'

I cannot imagine being so vehemently against anything without first having actually studied what it is about it that I find improbable, impossible or just plain stupid. that'd be stupid.

but maybe that's just me.

EDIT: I mean, there's even an option having been presented that ---> an alien presence plays a large role in this thing. Now, everything in me wants to scream "are you effin' kidding me?" But this 'option' coming from a most reputable person, and since i do my best to adhere to an honest approach to theories both comfortable and not so much (i said 'do my best to', not 'do'), i refrain from bucking at this quite astronomic idea. It comes from a respectful source, and - with a certain few in mind: who the hell am I to pass judgement on someone else's opinions? effin' God?

"who the hell am I to pass judgement on someone else's opinions?"

A citizen with his own (maybe contradictory, maybe complimentary) opinions. That's the fun of living in a democracy.

Do you say this before you vote for anyone?

Do you say that whilst doing jury service?

Do you not pass judgement on the opinions of violent dictators?

Would communists in the Whitehouse encourage your judgement on their opinions?

You have an extremely over inflated sense of your own self worth that doesn't tally with reality. You've done nothing BUT pass judgement since you exploded onto here a few weeks ago. That's why you are here!

[Glenn Nall]

for what it's worth, integrous, subjective and honest researchers and reviewers read BOTH sides of an issue before attempting any kind of subjective judgement. that's just plain responsible research.

if I TRULY want to know the truth, then i CANNOT be afraid to read literature from "the other side." I cannot be confident in my convictions if I have NOT weighed them against alternatives. For instance, inwardly I cannot in any way see how Gen Walker could be a major leader in something of this size. BUT - In my honest quest for TRUTH, i have refrained from blasting it since I have read nothing to speak of on the subject. I can only solidify my convictions when i've satisfactorily refuted the rest for myself.

And I CANNOT honestly lambast the opposing theories if I haven't actually read the research first. key word being 'honestly.'

I cannot imagine being so vehemently against anything without first having actually studied what it is about it that I find improbable, impossible or just plain stupid. that'd be stupid.

but maybe that's just me.

EDIT: I mean, there's even an option having been presented that ---> an alien presence plays a large role in this thing. Now, everything in me wants to scream "are you effin' kidding me?" But this 'option' coming from a most reputable person, and since i do my best to adhere to an honest approach to theories both comfortable and not so much (i said 'do my best to', not 'do'), i refrain from bucking at this quite astronomic idea. It comes from a respectful source, and - with a certain few in mind: who the hell am I to pass judgement on someone else's opinions? effin' God?

"who the hell am I to pass judgement on someone else's opinions?"

A citizen with his own (maybe contradictory, maybe complimentary) opinions. That's the fun of living in a democracy.

Do you say this before you vote for anyone?

Do you say that whilst doing jury service?

Do you not pass judgement on the opinions of violent dictators?

Would communists in the Whitehouse encourage your judgement on their opinions?

You have an extremely over inflated sense of your own self worth that doesn't tally with reality. You've done nothing BUT pass judgement since you exploded onto here a few weeks ago. That's why you are here!

pass judgement versus have an opinion. to me these are two entirely different things. they are apparently not to you.

[Thomas Graves]

WOW! Nor a WORD from ...

Thomas Graves

Sheeesh!

whether he answers or not, I'm thinkin' the answer is pretty clear... but that's just me...

-- Nall

Glenn,

Hargrove asked me whether or not I had read Harvey and Lee. I answered his question. Before you made your inane statement in post # 1420. Did you read my answer five posts before yours? I'm thinkin' the answer's real clear -- No you didn't, otherwise you wouldn't have posted your inane, vaguely insulting, chicken-you-know-what statement. Here's the pertinent part, Glenn, so you can read it and get over it.

[from post # 1415 # 1413]

Now, to answer your question, [Jim Hargrove], heck no, I haven't read Harvey and Lee! Why the heck would I want to waste my time doing given its patently ridiculous premises -- 1 ) that two young boys (and their mothers!) were chosen by the bad guys to participate in an elaborate double-doppelganger project, and that the bad guys somehow knew that the two boys would grow up to look very similar (when necessary) and very different (when necessary); ditto their mothers after they were already adults, 2 ) that "Lee" was (evidently) moved around and hidden in "safe" houses for two-and-one-half years so that he wouldn't bump into any of his friends and acquaintances while "Harvey" was in the USSR, and 3 ) that both "Lee's" and "Harvey's" families were "in on" the project all the way, and have miraculously been able to keep from "spilling the beans" / "letting the cat out of the bag" on it, both before and after the assassination, for about 60 years now. Seems to me the bad guys would have killed them all a long time ago to prevent that from happening. But then again maybe that wasn't necessary because the bad guys just MKULTRA-ed all of them 60 years ago to exhibit zombie-like silence and programmed ..... obfuscation. You know, with occasional "limited hangouts." That's it, isn't it, Jim.

(Speaking of pinto beans, I think Armstrong must have eaten a 55-gallon drum of them and the resultant gas caused him to come up with these weirdo ideas. Or was it ... mushrooms???)

To tell you the truth, Jim, I'm starting to entertain the idea that H&L is nothing but an elaborate CIA "disinfo project," designed to divide and confuse the JFK assassination research community.

For now, Jim, I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt. I'm gonna assume that you're just suffering from the effects of the Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy and its psychological corollary,the Clustering Illusion Syndrome. Add a liberal dash of paranoia and what do you hav? The Harvey and Lee Cult.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_sharpshooter_fallacy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clustering_illusion

--Tommy

I'm starting to realize that your name could easily mis-spelled by anybody as ""Null" (almost did it myself --LOL), which would be ironic and perfect because, well, although you post often, you don't seem to have much of value to say on this forum. You seem to be kind of a .... dilettante? A gadfly, ... if you will?

"No offense," Glenn.

--Tommy

Edited August 26, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[David Josephs]

Now, to answer your question, [Jim Hargrove], heck no, I haven't read Harvey and Lee!

To tell you the truth, Jim, I'm starting to entertain the idea that H&L is nothing but an elaborate CIA "disinfo project," designed to divide and confuse the JFK assassination research community.

Yo, genius... how would you know if you are not familiar with the information?

How can you even begin to entertain any thoughts based on your preconcieved conclusions which are, in turn, not based on the material...

Imagine you know nothing about the JFK murder and I tell you that Oswald wasn't at the window, never owned the rifle or pistol and that the films and photos have been altered to cover up a government conspiracy... And the proof is in this book.

In 1964 that sounded pretty crazy. but lo and behold... if you read the work that shows this to be true you can actually form an educated opinion.

Are you normally in the habit of providing others your completely uninformed opinions and expect them to be given any credibility?

When JVB claimed to do what she did, she offered proof which at every turn, at every look - FELL APART.

When JA points to and goes the extra mile to acquire the info our gov't wouldn't, and over and over again the conflicts rear their head...

you, Bernie and Greg...

....might consider not repeatedly looking the fool and read up on it. Or at least admit you're so out of your league related to the info and evidence that you CAN'T come to an opinion - that you'd reserve it until you did some work.

Is this how you approach other subjects tommy? Decide BEFORE you do the research what you're going to think and then stubbornly refuse to consider the source materials which are easily available. then stand on a soap box and proclaim your ignorance?

Sure looks that way to everyone here... and your attempts to cover this ignorance with "wittiness" are almost as bad as your dedication to NOT learning the subject.

I now know a great deal about H&L. I studied it and continue to discover new things all the time, just like the JFK assassination.

What do YOU know a great deal about Tommy?

Edited August 25, 2015 by David Josephs

[Glenn Nall]

WOW! Nor a WORD from ...

Thomas Graves

Sheeesh!

whether he answers or not, I'm thinkin' the answer is pretty clear... but that's just me...

-- Nall

Glenn,

Hargrove asked me whether or not I had read Harvey and Lee. I answered his question. Before you made your inane statement in post # 1420. Did you read my answer five posts before yours? I'm thinkin' the answer's real clear -- No you didn't, otherwise you wouldn't have posted your inane, vaguely insulting, chicken-you-know-what statement. Here's the pertinent part, Glenn, so you can read it and get over it.

[from post #1415]

Now, to answer your question, [Jim Hargrove], heck no, I haven't read Harvey and Lee! Why the heck would I want to waste my time doing given its patently ridiculous premises -- 1 ) that two young boys (and their mothers!) were chosen by the bad guys to participate in an elaborate double-doppelganger project, and that the bad guys somehow knew that the two boys would grow up to look very similar (when necessary) and very different (when necessary); ditto their mothers after they were already adults, 2 ) that "Lee" was (evidently) moved around and hidden in "safe" houses for two-and-one-half years so that he wouldn't bump into any of his friends and acquaintances while "Harvey" was in the USSR, and 3 ) that both "Lee's" and "Harvey's" families were "in on" the project all the way, and have miraculously been able to keep from "spilling the beans" / "letting the cat out of the bag" on it, both before and after the assassination, for about 60 years now. Seems to me the bad guys would have killed them all a long time ago to prevent that from happening. But then again maybe that wasn't necessary because the bad guys just MKULTRA-ed all of them 60 years ago to exhibit zombie-like silence and programmed ..... obfuscation. You know, with occasional "limited hangouts." That's it, isn't it, Jim.

(Speaking of pinto beans, I think Armstrong must have eaten a 55-gallon drum of them and the resultant gas caused him to come up with these weirdo ideas. Or was it ... mushrooms???)

To tell you the truth, Jim, I'm starting to entertain the idea that H&L is nothing but an elaborate CIA "disinfo project," designed to divide and confuse the JFK assassination research community.

For now, Jim, I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt. I'm gonna assume that you're just suffering from the effects of the Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy and its psychological corollary,the Clustering Illusion Syndrome. Add a liberal dash of paranoia and what do you hav? The Harvey and Lee Cult.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_sharpshooter_fallacy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clustering_illusion

--Tommy

I'm starting to realize that your name could easily mis-spelled by anybody as ""Null" (almost did it myself --LOL), which would be ironic and perfect because, well, although you post often, you don't seem to have much of value to say on this forum. You seem to be kind of a .... dilettante? A gadfly, ... if you will?

"No offense," Glenn.

--Tommy

nothing chicken xxxx about it, Thomas. I implied that i don't think you've read it, and then you admitted you haven't, then i said i don't know how someone can be such an authority as to so summarily dismiss such a complex theory without having read a book by its proponent. it's simple. to defeat an enemy you have to know the enemy.

what's chicken xxxx is attacking me when i've given you no reason to. and before you go saying i'm being a baby, i'll refer any of the instigators to the fact that the admin here have already posted a warning against such agitation. I'm remiss in responding to it, but I'm damn sure not guilty of instigating it.

if you don't like the fact that my opinion differs from yours, then there has to be some means of peace within yourself to overcome it. therapy, something. but attacking me isn't going to help your situation at all.

and believe me, it's not going to hurt mine.

[Greg Parker]

nothing chicken xxxx about it, Thomas. I implied that i don't think you've read it, and then you admitted you haven't, then i said i don't know how someone can be such an authority as to so summarily dismiss such a complex theory without having read a book by its proponent. it's simple. to defeat an enemy you have to know the enemy.

Can't be that complex, Glen. Dawn Meredith gave a talk on the book at one of the conferences before ever reading it.