Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Richard Hocking]

Marrion Baker described for the WC his actions after coming down from the roof of the TSBD with Roy Truly:

Mr. BAKER - We went to the, I believe it would be the first floor there.[/size]

Mr. BELIN - All right. You got off the elevator then?[/size]

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.[/size]

Mr. BELIN - Did you leave Mr. Truly or did you stay with him?[/size]

Mr. BAKER - I left Mr. Truly there.[/size]

Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?[/size]

Mr. BAKER - I immediately went on out. I was with this motorcade and I went right on straight through the front door and got on my motorcycle and tried to find out what happened to the motorcade.[/size]

It's a little surprising, in the light of the above account, to find footage of Baker standing in conversation with Truly and several others on the first floor:

Of course it's possible, contrary to the impression that Baker gives, that he did briefly engage with some people in Truly's company before heading out.

But it's not what one would expect from his account.

Is it at all possible that this footage is not from Alyea's 11/22/63 film but from 3/20/64, the day of the WC time trial when Baker and Truly reconvened at the Depository?

If so, might this man in the Baker/Truly footage--

--be the same man we see here during a visit to Dallas by WC members in May 64?

Sheriff Bill Decker?

Did WC member John Sherman Cooper, Republican Senator from Kentucky, make the trip to Dallas? From photos I've seen of Cooper with his glasses on, it appears this may be Cooper.

He did make the trip. He would be another candidate.

Video link below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3z_O3yfRKQ

[Robert Prudhomme]

Marrion Baker described for the WC his actions after coming down from the roof of the TSBD with Roy Truly:

Mr. BAKER - We went to the, I believe it would be the first floor there.[/size]

Mr. BELIN - All right. You got off the elevator then?[/size]

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.[/size]

Mr. BELIN - Did you leave Mr. Truly or did you stay with him?[/size]

Mr. BAKER - I left Mr. Truly there.[/size]

Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?[/size]

Mr. BAKER - I immediately went on out. I was with this motorcade and I went right on straight through the front door and got on my motorcycle and tried to find out what happened to the motorcade.[/size]

It's a little surprising, in the light of the above account, to find footage of Baker standing in conversation with Truly and several others on the first floor:

Of course it's possible, contrary to the impression that Baker gives, that he did briefly engage with some people in Truly's company before heading out.

But it's not what one would expect from his account.

Is it at all possible that this footage is not from Alyea's 11/22/63 film but from 3/20/64, the day of the WC time trial when Baker and Truly reconvened at the Depository?

If so, might this man in the Baker/Truly footage--

--be the same man we see here during a visit to Dallas by WC members in May 64?

Sheriff Bill Decker?

Did WC member John Sherman Cooper, Republican Senator from Kentucky, make the trip to Dallas? From photos I've seen of Cooper with his glasses on, it appears this may be Cooper.

He did make the trip. He would be another candidate.

Video link below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3z_O3yfRKQ

Was the re-enactment so complete they had Baker wear his motorcycle patrol uniform complete with helmet?

[Sean Murphy]

Captain Fritz's purported interrogation notes were released by the ARRB in November 1997.

Although Fritz did indeed take these notes down, however, he did not do so during any of the interrogation sessions.

They are in fact a copy he made in his own hand of the interrogation notes of FBI Special Agent James W. Bookhout.

Understanding this fact is essential if we are to make sense of what is in these notes--and reconstruct how Oswald actually answered key questions under interrogation.

**

Here's page 2 of Fritz's copy of Bookhout's notes (please note: the transcript below is not mine and contains a number of errors) (click to enlarge):

And here's the corresponding section of Agent Bookhout's Interrogation Report #4 (which I am going to reproduce in full, leaving out only the preamble):

Following his departure from the Texas School Book Depository, he boarded a city bus to his residence and obtained transfer upon departure from the bus. He stated that officers at the time of arresting him took his transfer out of his pocket.

Oswald advised that he had only one post office box which was at Dallas, Texas. He denied bringing any package to work on the morning of November 22, 1963. He stated that he was not in the process of fixing up his apartment and he denied telling Wesley Frazier that the purpose of his visit to Irving, Texas, on the night of November 21, 1963, was to obtain some curtain rods from Mrs. Ruth Paine.

Oswald stated that it was not exactly true as recently stated by him that he rode a bus from his place of employment to his residence on November 22, 1963. He stated actually he did board a city bus at his place of employment but that after a block or two, due to traffic congestion, he left the bus and rode a city cab to his apartment on North Beckley. He recalled that at the time of getting into the cab, some lady looked in and asked the driver to call her a cab. He stated that he might have made some remarks to the cab driver merely for the purpose of passing the time of day at that time. He recalled that his fare was approximately 85 cents. He stated that after arriving at his apartment, he changed his shirt and trousers because they were dirty. He described his dirty clothes as being a reddish colored long sleeved, shirt with a button-down collar and gray colored trousers. He indicated that he had placed these articles of clothing in the lower drawer of his dresser.

**

...Page 3:

...which corresponds to the very next part of Bookhout's Interrogation Report #4:

Oswald stated that on November 22, 1963, he had eaten lunch in the lunch room at the Texas School Book Depository, alone, but recalled possibly two Negro employees walking through the room during this period. He stated possibly one of these employees was called "Junior" and the other was short individual whose name he could not recall but whom he would be able to recognize. He stated that his lunch had consisted of a cheese sandwich and an apple which he had obtained at Mrs. Ruth Paine's residence in Irving, Texas, upon his leaving for work that morning.

Oswald stated that Mrs. Pain receives no pay for keeping his wife and children at her residence. He stated that their presence in Mrs. Paine's residence is a good arrangement for her because of her language interest, indicating that his wife speaks Russian and Mrs. Paine is interested in the Russian language.

Oswald denied having kept a rifle in Mrs. Paine's garage at Irving, Texas, but stated that he did have certain articles stored in her garage, consisting of two sea bags, a couple of suitcases, and several boxes of kitchen articles and also kept his clothes at Mrs. Paine's residence. He stated that all of the articles in Mrs. Paine's garage had been brought there about September, 1963, from New Orleans, Louisiana.

Oswald stated that he has had no visitors at his apartment on North Beckley.

Oswald stated that he has no receipts for purchase of any guns and has never ordered any guns and does not own a rifle nor has he ever possessed a rifle.

Oswald denied that he is a member of the Communist Party.

Oswald stated that he purchased a pistol, which was taken off him by police officers November 22, 1963, about six month ago. He declined to state where he had purchased it.

Oswald stated that he arrived about July, 1962, from USSR and was interviewed by the FBI at Fort Worth, Texas. He stated that he felt they overstepped their bounds and had used various tactics in interviewing him.

He further complained that on interview of Ruth Paine by the FBI regarding his wife, that he felt that his wife was intimidated.

**

... and page 4:

... with the corresponding concluding section of Bookhout's Report #4:

Oswald stated that he desired to contact Attorney Abt, New York City, indicating that Abt was the attorney who had defended the Smith Act case about 1949-1950. He stated that he does not know Attorney Abt personally. Captain Fritz advised Oswald that arrangement would be immediately made whereby he could call Attorney Abt.

Oswald stated that prior to coming to Dallas from New Orleans he had resided at a furnished apartment at 4706 Magazine Street, New Orleans, Louisiana. While in New Orleans, he had been employed by William B. Riley Company, 640 Magazine Street, New Orleans.

Oswald stated that he has nothing against President John F. Kennedy personally; however in view of the present charges against him, he did not desire to discuss this phase further.

Oswald stated that he would not agree to take a polygraph examination without the advice of counsel. He added that in the past he has refused to take polygraph examinations.

Oswald stated that he is a member of the American Civil Liberties Union and added that Mrs. Ruth Paine was also a member of same.

With regard to Selective Service card in the possession of Oswald bearing photograph of Oswald and the name of Alek James Hidell, Oswald admitted that he carried this Selective Service card but declined to state that he wrote the signature of Alek J. Hidell appearing on same. He further declined to state the purpose of carrying same or any use he has made of same.

Oswald stated that an address book in his possession contains the names of various Russian immigrants residing in Dallas, Texas, whom he has visited with.

Oswald denied shooting President John F. Kennedy on November 22, 1963, and added that he did not know that Governor John Connally had been shot and denied any knowledge concerning this incident.

on 11/23/63 at Dallas, Texas. File#DL89-43 by Special Agent James W. Bookhout /wvb. Date dictated 11/24/63.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Sean Murphy

[Sean Murphy]

Was the re-enactment so complete they had Baker wear his motorcycle patrol uniform complete with helmet?

I imagine so, Robert, as a motorcycle-riding element was included in the reconstruction.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Was the re-enactment so complete they had Baker wear his motorcycle patrol uniform complete with helmet?

I imagine so, Robert, as a motorcycle-riding element was included in the reconstruction.

That makes sense.

[Richard Hocking]

Sean,

I have been trying to assimilate the last few days of additions to this thread. You are doing an outstanding job of building a scenario, and you have turned up some great stuff to support it. There is however, an item I am stuck on that relates to Baker, Truly and the West Elevator. And it revolves around Officer Mooney and some related testimony.

If I understand correctly, you proposed that Baker and Truly took the West Elevator from the first floor all the way up to the 7th floor. Baker figured they made it to the roof 5 minutes after the last shot ( 12:35 - 12:36). In the meantime, I have Officer Mooney (with Vickery and Webster) arriving on the 1st floor around 12:33 - 12:36, (and there is reason to believe it is probably closer to 12:33). Mooney is specific about getting on the West Elevator on the 1st Floor, taking it up to the 2nd Floor -- and then power to the elevator goes out. This is where Mooney abandons the elevator and starts ascending the stairs, with the West Elevator (for the time being) stranded on the 2nd floor. It appears to be a conflict with Baker taking the West Elevator all the way up.

Link to Mooney WC Testimony:

http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol3/page283.php

The details of the West Elevator get foggy after the power-out incident. Vicky Adams also give some info about the power outage on the elevators, but it is less time specific than Mooney.

Link to Adams statement:

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/33/3376-002.gif

And somewhere, Jack Dougherty has to fit in here.

Hopefully, this can all be pieced together and help explain the movements of the first responders that entered the TSBD after the shots.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Hello Richard

It is a bit difficult to conceive of Deputy Mooney arriving at the freight elevators prior to 12:36; in fact, it is difficult conceiving of him arriving at the elevators prior to 12:40.

If we read Deputy Mooney's Supplementary Investigation Report of 23/11/63, we can see that Deputy Mooney was a very busy man up to the point he boarded the freight elevator.

"I was standing in front of the Sheriff's office at 505 Main Street, Dallas, When President Kennedy and the motorcade passed by. Within a few seconds after he had passed me and the motorcade had turned the corner I heard a shot and I immediately started running towards the front of the motorcade and within seconds heard a second and a third shot. I started running across Houston Street and down across the lawn to the triple underpass and up the terrace to the railroad yards. I searched along with many other officers, this area, when Sheriff Bill Decker came up and told me and the Officers Sam Webster and Billy Joe Victory to surround the Texas School Book Depository building. As we approached the two big steel wire gates to the building dockat the back of the building on Elm Street side, we saw saw that the loading dock had locks on it and I then pulled the steel gates closed and requested of a citizen standing there to see that no-one came out or went in until I could get a uniformed officer there, which he did. Officers Webster, Victory, and myself took to the building. Officers Webster and Victory took the stairs and I told them I would take the freight elevator."

[Richard Hocking]

Hello Richard

It is a bit difficult to conceive of Deputy Mooney arriving at the freight elevators prior to 12:36; in fact, it is difficult conceiving of him arriving at the elevators prior to 12:40.

If we read Deputy Mooney's Supplementary Investigation Report of 23/11/63, we can see that Deputy Mooney was a very busy man up to the point he boarded the freight elevator.

"I was standing in front of the Sheriff's office at 505 Main Street, Dallas, When President Kennedy and the motorcade passed by. Within a few seconds after he had passed me and the motorcade had turned the corner I heard a shot and I immediately started running towards the front of the motorcade and within seconds heard a second and a third shot. I started running across Houston Street and down across the lawn to the triple underpass and up the terrace to the railroad yards. I searched along with many other officers, this area, when Sheriff Bill Decker came up and told me and the Officers Sam Webster and Billy Joe Victory to surround the Texas School Book Depository building. As we approached the two big steel wire gates to the building dockat the back of the building on Elm Street side, we saw saw that the loading dock had locks on it and I then pulled the steel gates closed and requested of a citizen standing there to see that no-one came out or went in until I could get a uniformed officer there, which he did. Officers Webster, Victory, and myself took to the building. Officers Webster and Victory took the stairs and I told them I would take the freight elevator."

Hi Robert,

Let's begin with Mooney standing in front of the Criminal Courts Building on Main St., a few steps from the corner of Houston when the motorcade passes him. His full WC Testimony Link:

http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol3/page281.php

My interest is establishing a time frame required to get Mooney from his starting position at Main and Houston to the West Elevator in the NW corner of the TSBD. I have selected the relevant excerpts from Mooney’s testimony that deal with this specific issue and bolded them, below.

Mooney watches the President go by and make the turn onto Houston St. A few seconds later, he hears the first shot and begins running

“…when that begin to take place after the first shot we started moving out. And by the time I started running …”

“…I never did look at my watch to see how many seconds it took us to run so many hundred yards there, and into the railroad yard. We were there only a few seconds until we had orders to cover the Texas Depository Building…”

“…I was running at full speed…”

“…we run right over to the building then, which we were only 150, 200 feet back--I assume it is that distance I haven't measured it. It didn't take us but a few seconds to get there …”

“…They were wide open, the big gates. So I grabbed one, and we swung them to, and there was a citizen there, and I put him on orders to keep them shut …”

“…We shut the back door--there was a back door on a little dock. And then we went in through the docks, through the rear entrance.

… I said, "I will go up the freight elevator." I noticed there was a big elevator there. So I jumped on it …”

“…the one nearest to the staircase, on the northwest corner of the building …”

We can break Mooney’s response to the shots down into 3 actions:

1. The dash across the Plaza and scaling the Fence to the Railyard.

2. Time spent in the Railyard.

3. Running to the back of the TSBD.

We can give reasonable time estimates to each of these actions:

1. Measuring on a plat of Dealey Plaza, it is about 460 feet (120 yards) from the NE Corner of Main and Houston to scale the fence on the knoll. A sprinter might cover that distance in 15 seconds. Mooney says he was running at Full Speed. Let’s be generous and give him 45 seconds to make it into the rail yard.

2. Mooney estimated his time in the railyard at a few seconds before getting orders to head to the TSBD. Again being generous, Let’s say he spent a full minute there.

3. The last leg is from Railyard to the TSBD Rear Entrance. Mooney estimated a distance of 200’ (70 yards or so) and thought it took seconds to get there. They also stopped on the way to shut the gate on the cyclone fence and instruct a civilian to watch it. One and a half minutes should be more than adequate here.

Adding the 45s + 60s + 90s = 195s or 3 minutes 15 seconds. If the shots were fired at 12:30, Mooney could have been to the rear Elevator between 12:33 – 12:34.

Mooney (along with Vickery and Webster) is a top candidate for being the 2^nd Dallas Police Officer known to enter the TSBD after Marion Baker.

There is the additional issue of the power going out on the elevator when he reaches the 2^nd floor. If this was an attempt to impede progress to the upper floors to buy the shooter(s) additional time, it would make sense to do so before Police, Press, and others had already swarmed into the building.

If this was not already enough to ponder, I also have an old entry, with no citation, in my Sarah Stanton notes saying that she was timed during the WC re-creations in March of 1964 as making it from her position on the entrance steps to the 2^nd floor on the NW stairs in 3 minutes. And she encounters Officer Mooney there. I have been searching the web for source testimony, but so far I have found only one other mention of this event, also with no source citation. If anyone has additional source information, I would be grateful.

As I mentioned in my previous post, Sean has a well reasoned scenario for Baker. For myself, I just need to figure out how Mooney and the other pieces all fit together.

[Sean Murphy]

Hi Robert,

Let's begin with Mooney standing in front of the Criminal Courts Building on Main St., a few steps from the corner of Houston when the motorcade passes him. His full WC Testimony Link:

http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol3/page281.php

My interest is establishing a time frame required to get Mooney from his starting position at Main and Houston to the West Elevator in the NW corner of the TSBD. I have selected the relevant excerpts from Mooney’s testimony that deal with this specific issue and bolded them, below.

Mooney watches the President go by and make the turn onto Houston St. A few seconds later, he hears the first shot and begins running

“…when that begin to take place after the first shot we started moving out. And by the time I started running …”

“…I never did look at my watch to see how many seconds it took us to run so many hundred yards there, and into the railroad yard. We were there only a few seconds until we had orders to cover the Texas Depository Building…”

“…I was running at full speed…”

“…we run right over to the building then, which we were only 150, 200 feet back--I assume it is that distance I haven't measured it. It didn't take us but a few seconds to get there …”

“…They were wide open, the big gates. So I grabbed one, and we swung them to, and there was a citizen there, and I put him on orders to keep them shut …”

“…We shut the back door--there was a back door on a little dock. And then we went in through the docks, through the rear entrance.

… I said, "I will go up the freight elevator." I noticed there was a big elevator there. So I jumped on it …”

“…the one nearest to the staircase, on the northwest corner of the building …”

We can break Mooney’s response to the shots down into 3 actions:

1. The dash across the Plaza and scaling the Fence to the Railyard.

2. Time spent in the Railyard.

3. Running to the back of the TSBD.

We can give reasonable time estimates to each of these actions:

1. Measuring on a plat of Dealey Plaza, it is about 460 feet (120 yards) from the NE Corner of Main and Houston to scale the fence on the knoll. A sprinter might cover that distance in 15 seconds. Mooney says he was running at Full Speed. Let’s be generous and give him 45 seconds to make it into the rail yard.

2. Mooney estimated his time in the railyard at a few seconds before getting orders to head to the TSBD. Again being generous, Let’s say he spent a full minute there.

3. The last leg is from Railyard to the TSBD Rear Entrance. Mooney estimated a distance of 200’ (70 yards or so) and thought it took seconds to get there. They also stopped on the way to shut the gate on the cyclone fence and instruct a civilian to watch it. One and a half minutes should be more than adequate here.

Adding the 45s + 60s + 90s = 195s or 3 minutes 15 seconds. If the shots were fired at 12:30, Mooney could have been to the rear Elevator between 12:33 – 12:34.

Mooney (along with Vickery and Webster) is a top candidate for being the 2^nd Dallas Police Officer known to enter the TSBD after Marion Baker.

There is the additional issue of the power going out on the elevator when he reaches the 2^nd floor. If this was an attempt to impede progress to the upper floors to buy the shooter(s) additional time, it would make sense to do so before Police, Press, and others had already swarmed into the building.

If this was not already enough to ponder, I also have an old entry, with no citation, in my Sarah Stanton notes saying that she was timed during the WC re-creations in March of 1964 as making it from her position on the entrance steps to the 2^nd floor on the NW stairs in 3 minutes. And she encounters Officer Mooney there. I have been searching the web for source testimony, but so far I have found only one other mention of this event, also with no source citation. If anyone has additional source information, I would be grateful.

As I mentioned in my previous post, Sean has a well reasoned scenario for Baker. For myself, I just need to figure out how Mooney and the other pieces all fit together.

Hi Richard,

Like others, I think Luke Mooney entered significantly later than 12.33-12.34 (Sarah Stanton went up to the second floor by the front elevator btw--I've never heard of any time trial performed by her).

But let's just say for argument's sake that Mooney and Webster and Victory really did get there within just 3 or 4 minutes of the shooting.

Mr. MOONEY - [...] Officer Vickery and Webster said, "We will take the staircase there in the corner.
I said, "I will go up the freight elevator." I noticed there was a big elevator there. So I jumped on it. And about that time two women come running and said, "we want to go to the second floor."
I said, "All right, get on, we are going."
Mr. BALL - Which elevator did you get on?
Mr. MOONEY - It was the one nearest to the staircase, on the northwest corner of the building.
Mr. BALL - There are two elevators there?
Mr. MOONEY - I found that out later. I didn't know it at that time.
Mr. BALL - You took the west one, or the east one?
Mr. MOONEY - I would say it was the west elevator, the one nearest to the staircase.

Note that Mooney isn't saying he had to call for the elevator. No, it was already there.

Now Jack Dougherty claimed that very shortly after the assassination he took that same rear west freight elevator down to the first floor, had a brief exchange with Eddie Piper and then went back up to the sixth floor by elevator.

How then is it possible that this elevator was down on the first floor waiting for Luke Mooney?

**

What really happened, I believe, is this:

Jack never used that west elevator just after the shooting.

Baker and Truly did.

And after searching the roof, they brought it down to the first floor and left it open...

... ready to be used by Luke Mooney who entered shortly afterwards.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Sean Murphy

[Richard Hocking]

Hi Robert,

Let's begin with Mooney standing in front of the Criminal Courts Building on Main St., a few steps from the corner of Houston when the motorcade passes him. His full WC Testimony Link:

http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol3/page281.php

My interest is establishing a time frame required to get Mooney from his starting position at Main and Houston to the West Elevator in the NW corner of the TSBD. I have selected the relevant excerpts from Mooney’s testimony that deal with this specific issue and bolded them, below.

Mooney watches the President go by and make the turn onto Houston St. A few seconds later, he hears the first shot and begins running

“…when that begin to take place after the first shot we started moving out. And by the time I started running …”

“…I never did look at my watch to see how many seconds it took us to run so many hundred yards there, and into the railroad yard. We were there only a few seconds until we had orders to cover the Texas Depository Building…”

“…I was running at full speed…”

“…we run right over to the building then, which we were only 150, 200 feet back--I assume it is that distance I haven't measured it. It didn't take us but a few seconds to get there …”

“…They were wide open, the big gates. So I grabbed one, and we swung them to, and there was a citizen there, and I put him on orders to keep them shut …”

“…We shut the back door--there was a back door on a little dock. And then we went in through the docks, through the rear entrance.

… I said, "I will go up the freight elevator." I noticed there was a big elevator there. So I jumped on it …”

“…the one nearest to the staircase, on the northwest corner of the building …”

We can break Mooney’s response to the shots down into 3 actions:

1. The dash across the Plaza and scaling the Fence to the Railyard.

2. Time spent in the Railyard.

3. Running to the back of the TSBD.

We can give reasonable time estimates to each of these actions:

1. Measuring on a plat of Dealey Plaza, it is about 460 feet (120 yards) from the NE Corner of Main and Houston to scale the fence on the knoll. A sprinter might cover that distance in 15 seconds. Mooney says he was running at Full Speed. Let’s be generous and give him 45 seconds to make it into the rail yard.

2. Mooney estimated his time in the railyard at a few seconds before getting orders to head to the TSBD. Again being generous, Let’s say he spent a full minute there.

3. The last leg is from Railyard to the TSBD Rear Entrance. Mooney estimated a distance of 200’ (70 yards or so) and thought it took seconds to get there. They also stopped on the way to shut the gate on the cyclone fence and instruct a civilian to watch it. One and a half minutes should be more than adequate here.

Adding the 45s + 60s + 90s = 195s or 3 minutes 15 seconds. If the shots were fired at 12:30, Mooney could have been to the rear Elevator between 12:33 – 12:34.

Mooney (along with Vickery and Webster) is a top candidate for being the 2^nd Dallas Police Officer known to enter the TSBD after Marion Baker.

There is the additional issue of the power going out on the elevator when he reaches the 2^nd floor. If this was an attempt to impede progress to the upper floors to buy the shooter(s) additional time, it would make sense to do so before Police, Press, and others had already swarmed into the building.

If this was not already enough to ponder, I also have an old entry, with no citation, in my Sarah Stanton notes saying that she was timed during the WC re-creations in March of 1964 as making it from her position on the entrance steps to the 2^nd floor on the NW stairs in 3 minutes. And she encounters Officer Mooney there. I have been searching the web for source testimony, but so far I have found only one other mention of this event, also with no source citation. If anyone has additional source information, I would be grateful.

As I mentioned in my previous post, Sean has a well reasoned scenario for Baker. For myself, I just need to figure out how Mooney and the other pieces all fit together.

Hi Richard,

Like others, I think Luke Mooney entered significantly later than 12.33-12.34 (Sarah Stanton went up to the second floor by the front elevator btw--I've never heard of any time trial performed by her).

But let's just say for argument's sake that Mooney and Webster and Victory really did get there within just 3 or 4 minutes of the shooting.

Mr. MOONEY - [...] Officer Vickery and Webster said, "We will take the staircase there in the corner.

I said, "I will go up the freight elevator." I noticed there was a big elevator there. So I jumped on it. And about that time two women come running and said, "we want to go to the second floor."

I said, "All right, get on, we are going."

Mr. BALL - Which elevator did you get on?

Mr. MOONEY - It was the one nearest to the staircase, on the northwest corner of the building.

Mr. BALL - There are two elevators there?

Mr. MOONEY - I found that out later. I didn't know it at that time.

Mr. BALL - You took the west one, or the east one?

Mr. MOONEY - I would say it was the west elevator, the one nearest to the staircase.

Note that Mooney isn't saying he had to call for the elevator. No, it was already there.

Now Jack Dougherty claimed that very shortly after the assassination he took that same rear west freight elevator down to the first floor, had a brief exchange with Eddie Piper and then went back up to the sixth floor by elevator.

How then is it possible that this elevator was down on the first floor waiting for Luke Mooney?

**

What really happened, I believe, is this:

Jack never used that west elevator just after the shooting.

Baker and Truly did.

And after searching the roof, they brought it down to the first floor and left it open...

... ready to be used by Luke Mooney who entered shortly afterwards.

Hi Sean,

Mooney’s time estimates are one of the key issues. I can see, for instance, where he may have spent more than a “few seconds” in the rail yard. At the same time, his testimony emphasizes his speed in getting into the TSBD. That is why my timeline shows a range of 12:33 to 12:36. He could have made it by 12:33, or it may have actually taken a couple more minutes. It is difficult for me to imagine he got in any later than that.

Then there is the issue of Sarah Stanton. We know the WC did several re-creations when they visited Dallas in March of 1964:

The Limo re-enactment; they had Baker re-enact his actions from the cycle to the 2^nd floor and timed that; They timed Mrs Reid in her entry back into her 2^nd floor office. It does not seem too far-fetched to have also timed some other witnesses like Stanton, while they were in town.

Why Sarah Stanton would use the back steps is another issue. My best guess is the front elevator was unavailable (power off?) and she went to the other elevators to try them. She may have been one of the women that Mooney referenced when he said two women got on the West Elevator with him.

Hopefully, I can locate my reference for the Sarah Stanton timing. As it stands, it looks like the elevator ups and downs require some delicate timing.

Overall, this thread has been a great ride.

Onward.

[Bjørn Gjerde]

More about Vicky Adams' encounter with Mooney and its timing:

Miss ADAMS - There was an officer on the stairs itself, and he was prohibiting people from entering the building, that is correct. But I told him I worked there.
Mr. BELIN - Did he let you come back in?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do ?
Miss ADAMS - Following that, I pushed the button for the passenger elevator, but the power had been cut off on the elevator, so I took the stairs to the second floor.
Mr. BELIN - You then went all the way back to the northwest corner of the building and took the same set of stairs you had previously taken to come down, or did you take the stairs by the passenger elevator?
Miss ADAMS - By the passenger elevator.
Mr. BELIN - Do those stairs go above floor 2?
Miss ADAMS - No, sir; they didn't.
Mr. BELIN - What did you do when you got to the second floor?
Miss ADAMS - I went into the Texas School Book Depository office and just listened for a few minutes to the people that were congregating there, and decided there wasn't anything interesting going on, and went out and walked around the hall to the freight elevator meaning the one on the northwest corner.
Mr. BELIN - Would it have been the west or the east? The one nearest the stairs or the other one?
Miss ADAMS - Yes; the one nearest the stairs.
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?
Miss ADAMS - I went into the elevator which was stopped on the second floor, with two men who were dressed in suit and hats, and I assumed they were plainclothesmen.
Mr. BELIN - What did you do then?
Miss ADAMS - I tried to get the elevator to go to the fourth floor, but it wasn't operating, so the gentlemen lifted the elevator gate and we went out and ran up the stairs to the fourth floor.
Mr. BELIN - Then you went back to the Scott Foresman Company offices?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Now trying to reconstruct your actions insofar as the time sequence, which we haven't done, what is your best estimate of the time between the time the shots were fired and the time you got back to the building? How much time elapsed? If you have any estimate. Maybe you don't have one.
Miss ADAMS - I would estimate not more than 5 minutes elapsed.

BGjerde

[Richard Hocking]

More about Vicky Adams' encounter with Mooney and its timing:

Miss ADAMS - There was an officer on the stairs itself, and he was prohibiting people from entering the building, that is correct. But I told him I worked there.

Mr. BELIN - Did he let you come back in?

Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do ?

Miss ADAMS - Following that, I pushed the button for the passenger elevator, but the power had been cut off on the elevator, so I took the stairs to the second floor.

Mr. BELIN - You then went all the way back to the northwest corner of the building and took the same set of stairs you had previously taken to come down, or did you take the stairs by the passenger elevator?

Miss ADAMS - By the passenger elevator.

Mr. BELIN - Do those stairs go above floor 2?

Miss ADAMS - No, sir; they didn't.

Mr. BELIN - What did you do when you got to the second floor?

Miss ADAMS - I went into the Texas School Book Depository office and just listened for a few minutes to the people that were congregating there, and decided there wasn't anything interesting going on, and went out and walked around the hall to the freight elevator meaning the one on the northwest corner.

Mr. BELIN - Would it have been the west or the east? The one nearest the stairs or the other one?

Miss ADAMS - Yes; the one nearest the stairs.

Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?

Miss ADAMS - I went into the elevator which was stopped on the second floor, with two men who were dressed in suit and hats, and I assumed they were plainclothesmen.

Mr. BELIN - What did you do then?

Miss ADAMS - I tried to get the elevator to go to the fourth floor, but it wasn't operating, so the gentlemen lifted the elevator gate and we went out and ran up the stairs to the fourth floor.

Mr. BELIN - Then you went back to the Scott Foresman Company offices?

Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Now trying to reconstruct your actions insofar as the time sequence, which we haven't done, what is your best estimate of the time between the time the shots were fired and the time you got back to the building? How much time elapsed? If you have any estimate. Maybe you don't have one.

Miss ADAMS - I would estimate not more than 5 minutes elapsed.

BGjerde

Good catch, Bjørn.

More corroboration for the power outage on the Elevator. Thanks for posting it.

[Sean Murphy]

Hi Sean,

Mooney’s time estimates are one of the key issues. I can see, for instance, where he may have spent more than a “few seconds” in the rail yard. At the same time, his testimony emphasizes his speed in getting into the TSBD. That is why my timeline shows a range of 12:33 to 12:36. He could have made it by 12:33, or it may have actually taken a couple more minutes. It is difficult for me to imagine he got in any later than that.

Then there is the issue of Sarah Stanton. We know the WC did several re-creations when they visited Dallas in March of 1964:

The Limo re-enactment; they had Baker re-enact his actions from the cycle to the 2^nd floor and timed that; They timed Mrs Reid in her entry back into her 2^nd floor office. It does not seem too far-fetched to have also timed some other witnesses like Stanton, while they were in town.

Why Sarah Stanton would use the back steps is another issue. My best guess is the front elevator was unavailable (power off?) and she went to the other elevators to try them. She may have been one of the women that Mooney referenced when he said two women got on the West Elevator with him.

Hopefully, I can locate my reference for the Sarah Stanton timing. As it stands, it looks like the elevator ups and downs require some delicate timing.

Overall, this thread has been a great ride.

Onward.

Hi Richard,

I suspect (and I'm not the first to do so) that the two men Mooney met coming down the rear stairway may have been the same two 'Secret Service' men Harkness met at the rear of the building shortly after that, ca. 12:38-12:40.

To my knowledge, Sarah Stanton never said a word about having gone to the back of the first floor--she just used the front elevator:

[Sean Murphy]

More about Vicky Adams' encounter with Mooney and its timing:

Miss ADAMS - There was an officer on the stairs itself, and he was prohibiting people from entering the building, that is correct. But I told him I worked there.

Mr. BELIN - Did he let you come back in?

Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do ?

Miss ADAMS - Following that, I pushed the button for the passenger elevator, but the power had been cut off on the elevator, so I took the stairs to the second floor.

Mr. BELIN - You then went all the way back to the northwest corner of the building and took the same set of stairs you had previously taken to come down, or did you take the stairs by the passenger elevator?

Miss ADAMS - By the passenger elevator.

Mr. BELIN - Do those stairs go above floor 2?

Miss ADAMS - No, sir; they didn't.

Mr. BELIN - What did you do when you got to the second floor?

Miss ADAMS - I went into the Texas School Book Depository office and just listened for a few minutes to the people that were congregating there, and decided there wasn't anything interesting going on, and went out and walked around the hall to the freight elevator meaning the one on the northwest corner.

Mr. BELIN - Would it have been the west or the east? The one nearest the stairs or the other one?

Miss ADAMS - Yes; the one nearest the stairs.

Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?

Miss ADAMS - I went into the elevator which was stopped on the second floor, with two men who were dressed in suit and hats, and I assumed they were plainclothesmen.

Mr. BELIN - What did you do then?

Miss ADAMS - I tried to get the elevator to go to the fourth floor, but it wasn't operating, so the gentlemen lifted the elevator gate and we went out and ran up the stairs to the fourth floor.

Mr. BELIN - Then you went back to the Scott Foresman Company offices?

Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Now trying to reconstruct your actions insofar as the time sequence, which we haven't done, what is your best estimate of the time between the time the shots were fired and the time you got back to the building? How much time elapsed? If you have any estimate. Maybe you don't have one.

Miss ADAMS - I would estimate not more than 5 minutes elapsed.

BGjerde

Thanks for posting this very pertinent segment of Vicki Adams's testimony, Bjørn.

She's obviously talking about the same elevator that Mooney is talking about but is it the same incident? There are key differences (e.g. two plainclothesmen vs. Mooney on his own, Adams trying to get on the elevator on the second floor rather than two women trying to get on it on the first).

My read is that Mooney has shortly before Adams's arrival already headed off up the stairs, leaving the no-good elevator behind.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Sean Murphy

[Sean Murphy]

Captain Fritz's purported interrogation notes were released by the ARRB in November 1997.

Although Fritz did indeed take these notes down, however, he did not do so during any of the interrogation sessions.

They are in fact a copy he made in his own hand of the interrogation notes of FBI Special Agent James W. Bookhout.

Understanding this fact is essential if we are to make sense of what is in these notes--and reconstruct how Oswald actually answered key questions under interrogation.

As we have seen, the 'Fritz notes' are not in fact contemporaneous notes taken by Fritz himself, but the copy he himself made of FBI Special Agent James W. Bookhout's contemporaneous notes.

This fact is nicely brought home in the following little detail:

Myself: if these notes were really being written by Fritz in real time during the interrogation session, the last thing he would need to be noting down for future reference would be the duh-level-obvious fact that he himself is one of the people present in the room!

No, Fritz is copying from Bookhout's interrogation notes and, seeing the word 'Fritz', naturally translating it as 'myself'.