Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[J. Raymond Carroll]

This Lancer discussion, as far as I know, would be the first known discussion of this character.

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2881.msg54164.html#msg54164

Duncan

Thank you Duncan, much appreciated.

I see Robin wrote

About a year ago this was discussed on Lancer Forum at great length, between myself and other members.

I still have not had satisfactory resolution to the question.

It is a pity that the Lancer Forum is down. Does anyone know anything about that? I hope everything is okay with Debra.

BTW Duncan, I can't find out anything about Gerda Dunker, who made the Gif. that really got this

line of inquiry moving. Is she based in Holland?

Edited August 21, 2013 by J. Raymond Carroll

[Sean Murphy]

Is it fair to say, Sean

that everyone in the TSBD doorway

is an employee of the building?

Can you, or anyone, see any strangers

apart of course from

Prayer Man.

I think it's a fair assumption, Ray, based on the combination of all the witness statements and testimonies, that there were no strangers on the steps themselves at the time of the assassination. Indeed as far as I can determine, everyone we see on the steps can be accounted for--everyone, that is, bar Prayer Man.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Sean Murphy

[Sean Murphy]

Keep up the good work, guys. This thread is brilliant.

I would caution everyone about trusting Holmes's account. We are not talking here about Sherlock.

His claim that Baker told Oz "I'll deal with you later", implying that Oz disobeyed Baker's order to wait around

is not supported by Baker or Truly, and we can be certain that

A/ it never happened and

B/ Oz never said it happened.

Moreover, if we compare Holmes's report with Kelley's report of that final interview

there are alarming discrepancies. I believe Kelley's report is an honest report

(& not just because he has a namesake (without the e) on the forum),

whereas Holmes appears to be confabulating, and including matters that were discussed

in Friday and Saturday's interrogations, which he had no doubt been briefed about by his good friend

Will Fritz.

You're right about Holmes, Ray. His report was written weeks after the interview he'd witnessed, and was not based on any notes. It's obvious 1) his memory was not very good, and 2) he'd added in stuff he'd heard from others. One of the major embarrassments in Bugliosi's book, IMO, is his propping up of Holmes' report to claim Oswald admitted being on an upper floor at the time of the shooting.

AS IF FRITZ WOULDN"T HAVE NOTICED SUCH A THING! LOL.

Pat, I wouldn't be nearly so quick to dismiss Holmes's recollection that Oswald spoke of an encounter in or around the first floor vestibule.

For one thing, 'vestibule' is a very distinctive word. It seems doubtful to me that Holmes would use it unless he had heard it from Oswald's own lips. And--once again we need to remind ourselves--the word vestibule means "front lobby of a building". (Roy Truly's use of it in his WC testimony is most eccentric.)

For another thing, Holmes's version is corroborated by what Detective Ed Hicks was telling the press on the evening of the assassination.

From the London Free Press 11/23/63 (and printed in multiple stateside newspapers that same day):

Holmes: Oswald wanted to see what the "commotion" was. An officer challenged him at the front entrance.

Hicks: Oswald wanted to see what the "excitement" was. An officer challenged him at the front entrance.

(Note: Fritz also recalled--using the exact same word as Hicks--that Oswald claimed to have seen the "excitement").

Now unless Hicks was privy to Oswald's interrogation--which we have no reason to believe he was--how on earth was he able to tell the press on 11/22 exactly what Harry Holmes would months later recall Oswald having said in custody?

Hicks's statement stands as tantalising independent corroboration of Holmes's account.

Thus we have a simple alternative sequence of events to consider:

Oswald goes to lunch in the first-floor domino room----he goes upstairs to the second-floor lunchroom where he buys a coke----he takes the coke downstairs and makes his way to the front entrance to see the commotion/excitement----for some reason he is noticed and challenged by Officer Baker as the latter is running into the building--Roy Truly vouches for him.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Sean Murphy

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Thus we have a simple alternative sequence of events to consider:

Oswald goes to lunch in the first-floor domino room----he goes upstairs to the second-floor lunchroom where he buys a coke----he takes the coke downstairs and makes his way to the front entrance to see the commotion/excitement----for some reason he is noticed and challenged by Officer Baker as the latter is running into the building--Roy Truly vouches for him.

I tentatively submit that the confusion here is simply over names. I seem to recall that previous researchers, it may have been Anthony Summers, found out that in Dallas it was common to refer to the second floor as the first floor,

and to refer to the ground floor as the ground floor.

I am sure Gary Mack could set us straight on this.

Another reason I don't trust Holmes is he claims to have been watching the assassination through binoculars from a rooftop,

giving him a bird's eye view, and he claims he saw no one where Lee Bowers swore he saw two people.

Did he not show great foresight in arranging for a ringside seat at a historic murder?

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Gerda is based in Germany.

She has not logged on to the forum since February,

Some concerned members have messaged her via the forum and her private email address, but they have had no response as far as I am aware.

We should send Gerda a big bunch of red roses thanking her for her contributions, with a note from me

apologising for misspelling her name, a name that deserves to be long remembered.

For the record: The proper name of the talented lady who created the gif. on Duncan's forum that led to this current thread

is Gerda Dunckel

John F. Kennedy: Ich Bin ein Berliner

Edited August 21, 2013 by J. Raymond Carroll

[Richard Hocking]

Randy Sorensen sends along the following:

I found the following pictures of the Texas School Book Depository building entryway that might be useful for starters:

I send this to you because I have no other way to communicate with the forum. If you could forward these links to Mr. Hocking, I would appreciate it.

Fairly recent picture

http://0.tqn.com/d/dallas/1/0/y/3/-/-/01TexasSchoolBookDepository.JPG

Early picture

https://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/2/2c/Photo_wcd81-1_0097.jpg

Early picture – close up

https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=349592

Thanks!

Randy

Thanks to Bill and Randy.

I have also picked up a few pictures from other sources.

Still looking for some measurements of step riser height; porch floor to ceiling height; I know the probable door opening height, but it would be nice to verify.

[Richard Hocking]

Is it fair to say, Sean

that everyone in the TSBD doorway

is an employee of the building?

Can you, or anyone, see any strangers

apart of course from

Prayer Man.

I think it's a fair assumption, Ray, based on the combination of all the witness statements and testimonies, that there were no strangers on the steps themselves at the time of the assassination. Indeed as far as I can determine, everyone we see on the steps can be accounted for--everyone, that is, bar Prayer Man.

I agree it's fair. The step witnesses and nearly every other employee of the TSBD was asked if they saw any stranger/ or anyone who was not known to them. They all agreed there were no strangers in the building that morning, with the single exception of Danny Arce. (Arce claimed he assisted an old man with "kidney" problems to a rest room, and then saw the old man get into a car and leave before the motorcade arrived.)

One of the few items unanimously agreed upon by all witnesses in the TSBD was that they saw no strangers in the building.

[William Kelly]

Thus we have a simple alternative sequence of events to consider:

Oswald goes to lunch in the first-floor domino room----he goes upstairs to the second-floor lunchroom where he buys a coke----he takes the coke downstairs and makes his way to the front entrance to see the commotion/excitement----for some reason he is noticed and challenged by Officer Baker as the latter is running into the building--Roy Truly vouches for him.

I tentatively submit that the confusion here is simply over names. I seem to recall that previous researchers, it may have been Anthony Summers, found out that in Dallas it was common to refer to the second floor as the first floor,

and to refer to the ground floor as the ground floor.

I am sure Gary Mack could set us straight on this.

Another reason I don't trust Holmes is he claims to have been watching the assassination through binoculars from a rooftop,

giving him a bird's eye view, and he claims he saw no one where Lee Bowers swore he saw two people.

Did he not show great foresight in arranging for a ringside seat at a historic murder?

Well we don't have to confuse ourselves, we know the first floor is the first floor.

Holmes worked in the Post Office Annex on the opposite side of Dealey Plaza and watched the assassination through binoculars from his office window, though there was a witness on the roof who did do a video interview that is on Youtube somewhere.

And I don't trust Holmes either.

As for Murphy's alternative scenario - Oswald couldn't have bought the coke and then been challenged by Baker at the front door if you incorporate the Second Floor encounter with Baker and Truly a minute and a half later. For the Second Floor encounter to have occurred, Baker and Truly had to go to the rear of the building and up the back stairs as Oswald, if he is "Prayer Man," goes up the front stairs to the second floor and trough the offices to the Lunch Room vestibule - where he is seen by Baker. Buys his coke.Then he goes back out the same way he came in and out the front door.

That's the alternative scenario from the Warren Commission's version of Oswald descending the back steps from the Sixth Floor to the Second Floor. I also noticed in the Secret Service reenactment that THERE IS A DOOR at the top of the steps on the second floor, so whoever ascended those steps had to open that door - which makes me think that there should have been Oswald's fingerprints on the door at the top of the second floor stairs as well as on the door to the Second Floor Lunchroom IF HE HAD GONE THROUGH Those doors. And I don't know if they even looked for those prints, which wouldn't be there if the Alternative Scenario is true.

[Robert Prudhomme]

No one seems to "trust" Harry Holmes. Would anyone care to elaborate on just why they find Mr. Holmes any more untrustworthy than anyone else involved in this case?

[Thomas Graves]

Thus we have a simple alternative sequence of events to consider:

Oswald goes to lunch in the first-floor domino room----he goes upstairs to the second-floor lunchroom where he buys a coke----he takes the coke downstairs and makes his way to the front entrance to see the commotion/excitement----for some reason he is noticed and challenged by Officer Baker as the latter is running into the building--Roy Truly vouches for him.

I tentatively submit that the confusion here is simply over names. I seem to recall that previous researchers, it may have been Anthony Summers, found out that in Dallas it was common to refer to the second floor as the first floor,

and to refer to the ground floor as the ground floor.

I am sure Gary Mack could set us straight on this.

Another reason I don't trust Holmes is he claims to have been watching the assassination through binoculars from a rooftop,

giving him a bird's eye view, and he claims he saw no one where Lee Bowers swore he saw two people.

Did he not show great foresight in arranging for a ringside seat at a historic murder?

William Kelly wrote:

[...] there was a witness on the roof [of the Terminal Annex Building] who did do a video interview that is on Youtube somewhere.

[...]

Bill,

Are you referring to J. C. Price, the building engineer for the Terrminal Annex Building who said he was on the roof of that building during the assassination?

I have two minor problems with J. C. Price's statement to the Sheriff's Department.

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/html/WH_Vol19_0255b.htm

1) He said that although he saw Connally "slump over," he couldn't see the President because [paraphrasing here] the limo had gone out of his view under the Triple Underpass.

2) According to him, the final shot was up to five minutes after the first ones.

We've heard that Sheriff Decker was corrupt, so maybe he had Price's testimony altered to make him look like a nut case?

Sincerely,

--Tommy

BTW, do you really think the guy whom I call "College Boy" in the Couch/Darnell film (starting around 04:20) was Lee Harvey Oswald?

PS Mark Lane makes a boo-boo in the youtube video when he says that the Terminal Annex building is at the "north east corner" of Dealey Plaza. Actually, it's at the south east corner.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[William Kelly]

No one seems to "trust" Harry Holmes. Would anyone care to elaborate on just why they find Mr. Holmes any more untrustworthy than anyone else involved in this case?

I don't know why others don't seem to trust him, but Harry Holmes was a key player in the Oswald drama, especially in the first few hours when they were tracking down the guns and the post office boxes - and the Hidell alias comes into play.

Holme's office overlooks Dealey Plaza and the Post Office Annex, as it is called, is also home to other federal offices - including the Secret Service annex, and an ONI annex, both agencies also having other official offices on Main Street. The Warren Commission conducted interviews and took testimony in the PO Annex (ie. Truly), and as in Miami and other cities, there should have been a Sherrif's office sniper on the roof and there wasn't. [The most effective was to counter a sniper is with another sniper).

And yes, Mr. Tommy that does appear to be the witness, whose exagerated five minutes certainly doesn't disqualify him totally.

While Holmes came up with enough of the necessary post office documentation of weapons purchases they needed to pin the tail on the Patsy, he couldn't come up with one witness - a post office employee who handed Oswald the rifle and pistol over the counter and took his COD payment or ever handed Oswald anything.

Then when it was time for the DPD to hand Oswald over to Sheriff Decker, Holmes gets one last shot at Oswald - and keeps him there until - Jack Ruby is in position? -

Holmes's report is interesting in that he says Oswald didn't lie when it came to the PO boxes, and everything that he said about them checked out.

JFKCountercoup2: Interrogations of Oswald

I don't want to diver this thread from the topic - the identity of "Prayer Man" and photos or films of Oswald leaving the TSBD, but

Holme's reports on what Oswald said days earlier doesn't seem to hold water.

Edited August 21, 2013 by William Kelly

[J. Raymond Carroll]

The case against the Second Floor Lunchroom encounter is based primarily on the fact that in his Nov. 22 statement, Baker said that he encountered a man on the fourth floor, and makes no mention of the Second Floor encounter....

Bill, I have been re-reading this thread -- IMO it is the best ever-- and see that you explained this yourself,

in your post on Joe Molina. Molina said he went into the building immediately after the 3rd shot

and went to the fourth floor, so he should have been on the fourth floor ahead of Baker and Truly, who were delayed while trying to work the two rear elevators.

Since Baker had already dismissed Oz as a possible suspect, and the man (Molina) on the fourth floor

was closer to the rifle that was found shortly after, it makes sense that Baker would remember his encounter with Molina and forget about Oz, whom he had already eliminated as a suspect.

I would also suggest that when Baker said that he saw no one there, he may have been referring to the

elevators, where he expected the gunman to descend. Baker was heading for the roof of the TSBD,

from where he had seen a flock of birds (and I am sure Mr. Tommy will be able to tell us exactly what species, LOL) flying away.

Baker obviously suspected shots from the TSBD, but he also thought, from memory of his testimony,

that the roof would give him a perfect vantage point to survey the entire area, including the knoll,

and that is exactly what he said he did when they got to the roof, from memory.

Edited August 21, 2013 by J. Raymond Carroll

[J. Raymond Carroll]

I agree it's fair. The step witnesses and nearly every other employee of the TSBD was asked if they saw any stranger/ or anyone who was not known to them. They all agreed there were no strangers in the building that morning, with the single exception of Danny Arce. (Arce claimed he assisted an old man with "kidney" problems to a rest room, and then saw the old man get into a car and leave before the motorcade arrived.)

I like the way you put "kidney" in quotes, Richard.

Coincidences happen every day, but I have a theory that someone left Lee Oswald's jacket in the bathroom

and someone else took it to Oak Cliff, and dropped it near the Tippit crime scene.

The "old man" may not have been so old.

The thing that bothers me about my own theory is that Arce said there were also ladies in the car

(which, if I am not mistaken, was heading south, which would include Oak Cliff) as it drove away.

One always assumes that JFK's assassins were males, but history and our experience (including the RFK assassination) tells us that women can sometimes be bad actors too.

Edited August 21, 2013 by J. Raymond Carroll

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Deleted

Edited August 22, 2013 by J. Raymond Carroll

[Robert Prudhomme]

No one seems to "trust" Harry Holmes. Would anyone care to elaborate on just why they find Mr. Holmes any more untrustworthy than anyone else involved in this case?

I don't know why others don't seem to trust him, but Harry Holmes was a key player in the Oswald drama, especially in the first few hours when they were tracking down the guns and the post office boxes - and the Hidell alias comes into play.

Holme's office overlooks Dealey Plaza and the Post Office Annex, as it is called, is also home to other federal offices - including the Secret Service annex, and an ONI annex, both agencies also having other official offices on Main Street. The Warren Commission conducted interviews and took testimony in the PO Annex (ie. Truly), and as in Miami and other cities, there should have been a Sherrif's office sniper on the roof and there wasn't. [The most effective was to counter a sniper is with another sniper).

And yes, Mr. Tommy that does appear to be the witness, whose exagerated five minutes certainly doesn't disqualify him totally.

While Holmes came up with enough of the necessary post office documentation of weapons purchases they needed to pin the tail on the Patsy, he couldn't come up with one witness - a post office employee who handed Oswald the rifle and pistol over the counter and took his COD payment or ever handed Oswald anything.

Then when it was time for the DPD to hand Oswald over to Sheriff Decker, Holmes gets one last shot at Oswald - and keeps him there until - Jack Ruby is in position? -

Holmes's report is interesting in that he says Oswald didn't lie when it came to the PO boxes, and everything that he said about them checked out.

JFKCountercoup2: Interrogations of Oswald

I don't want to diver this thread from the topic - the identity of "Prayer Man" and photos or films of Oswald leaving the TSBD, but

Holme's reports on what Oswald said days earlier doesn't seem to hold water.

No, of course we do not want to divert this thread away from the main topic, that being the identity of the so-called Prayer Man, seen at the top of the stairs entering the TSBD. In my opinion, this is one of the few fresh leads in this case in many many years, and I think that ID'ing this man has the potential to open this case wide open.

For that reason, though, I feel Holmes may be one of the most important people to testify before the WC; simply because the testimony he gives us, mostly relating what he heard Oswald say in interrogation on 24/11/63, would seem to place Oswald within mere feet of Prayer Man at the time of the assassination. It is important to remember that our man Oswald may not have been totally innocent in this affair, and while he may have admitted to being on the 1st floor, he may have been reluctant to admit he was actually on the steps, for whatever reasons.

Just what part of Holmes' report do you feel does not hold water?