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Oswald Leaving TSBD?


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#751 Sean Murphy

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 08:28 PM

It must surely rank as one of the most peculiar moments in the WC's many pages of witness testimony:

 

Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Going to watch the rest of the parade were you?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - The Vice President hadn't gone by, had he, by your place?
Mr. SHELLEY - I don't know. I didn't recognize him. I did recognize Mr. Kennedy and his suntan I had been hearing about.
Mr. BALL - How did you happen to see Truly?
Mr. SHELLEY - We ran out on the island while some of the people that were out watching it from our building were walking back and we turned around and we saw an officer and Truly.
Mr. BALL - And Truly?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you see them go into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - No; we didn't watch that long but they were at the first step like they were fixin' to go in.

 

We know from the Darnell film that Shelley's sighting of Baker and Truly actually happened around half a minute after the shooting.

Yet here we have Shelley himself giving us a time estimate that is extravagantly outsize.

 

**

 

The peculiarity is only compounded, however, when we hear the person who was with Shelley out on the 'island' backing him up in this time estimate:

 

Mr. BALL - You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say. 
Mr. BALL - Three minutes is a long time. 
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, it's---I say approximately; I can't say because I don't have a watch; it could. 
Mr. BALL - Had people started to run? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I couldn't say because she came up to us and we was talking to her, wasn't looking that direction at that time, but when we came off the steps--see, that entrance, you have a blind side when you go down the steps. 
Mr. BALL - Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes. 

 

Three minutes, as Ball correctly notes, is indeed a long time for Lovelady to be estimating for his and Shelley's departure from the front steps.

In fact it's plain absurd.

While one might--at a stretch--credit one witness's memory going badly askew due to the shock of an assassination, being asked to believe that the time sense of this witness's companion was off to precisely the same extent (3 minutes for the departure from the steps; between 3 and 4 minutes for the sighting of Baker and Truly) will surely tax the credulity of even the most trusting of readers.

 

**

 

How do we explain this shared error on the part of Shelley and Lovelady?

Why are both misremembering in such unbelievably synchronised fashion?

Their error cannot have come from WC prompting, for the timeline the Commission had painstakingly put together via a series of rigged time trials already accommodated perforce a realistically early entry into the building by Baker and Truly.

 

**

 

I submit that Shelley and Lovelady are giving us evidence of very early coaching by DPD men and/or FBI agents.

For, as we have seen, the case/admission was made on the evening of the assassination that Oswald had been 'stopped' by the officer at the front entrance.

When Jesse Curry blithely announced this fact to news reporters that evening, he can have had no idea just how how troublesome a hostage to fortune he was giving. The disastrous evidence of the Darnell film was not yet known at this stage, so the first tack was simply to delay Baker's entry into the building to a point that would give Oswald time to make his descent from the sixth floor and 'escape'.

If this meant working on a couple of witnesses to Baker and Truly's entry, then so be it. (Cf. what Sandra Styles told me about the authorities' informing her that the first officers to reach the building did not arrive until some 15-20 minutes after the shooting.)

Unfortunately, no one thought to mention to Shelley and Lovelady ahead of their WC appearances that they could revert to their real memories and just tell the truth: we left the front entrance less than half a minute after the last shot.

 

**

 

As we shall see presently, the WC will have its own dirty work to do on Shelley and Lovelady, this time in relation to the Vicki Adams problem.

 

But for now let's turn to what happened in the first few days after the assassination to the original plan of extending the timeline so as to contrive a scenario consistent with Oswald's descent and guilt. 

 

 



#752 Sean Murphy

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 08:59 PM

There was a second powerful reason why, in the immediate aftermath of the assassination, Billy Lovelady had to be artificially kept on the front steps:

he resembled Oswald.

 

We underestimate at our peril the sheer panic that must have been abroad at DPD HQ and at FBI Special Branch.

The suspect in custody was claiming to have been out front at the time of the assassination.

He was describing events that only someone who had actually been there could have known.

And there was every danger that a photo or film would emerge showing him at the front entrance.

 

The sum of all fears seemed to come true when people started looking closely at the doorway area in the Altgens 6 photograph which had gone out on newswire.

 

5aim6Ek.jpg

 

Cue an immediate investigation by the FBI.

 

They made a beeline for Billy Lovelady, as he would recall for Dom Bonafede several months later:

 

XLVYoyv.jpg

 

The relief of the agents tells us all we need to know:

Oswald's being out front at the time of the shooting was an all too live scenario, for it was the scenario that he himself was claiming in custody.

If Oswald himself were placing himself far from the front entrance--such as in or around the second-floor lunchroom--then there would be no earthly cause for worry about what the assassination-time visual record might thrown up.

But he wasn't, so there was.

 

The authorities lucked out in a big way on its being Lovelady in Altgens, but what guarantee was there that another Oswaldian image would not show up over the coming days?

And what better way--what other way--to indemnify themselves against this eventuality than to keep Lovelady on the steps for a good 3 minutes should he be needed to explain away any such image?

(That Lovelady has been seriously proposed as Prayer Man by several researchers over the past couple of weeks has shown, this time rather farcically, the continued explanatory power he still holds for those intent on keeping Oswald away from that front entrance.)


Edited by Sean Murphy, 18 September 2013 - 09:03 PM.


#753 Robert Prudhomme

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 11:22 PM

BTW, could you provide a link to the statement or testimony from Pauline Sanders that confirms this?

Thank you, Sean. I must seem a bit anal asking for documentation but, I don't believe in giving skeptics and LN's any more reasons than they already have for taking cheap shots at your research.

 

Keep up the good work.



#754 Robert Prudhomme

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 11:36 PM

There was a second powerful reason why, in the immediate aftermath of the assassination, Billy Lovelady had to be artificially kept on the front steps:

he resembled Oswald.

 

We underestimate at our peril the sheer panic that must have been abroad at DPD HQ and at FBI Special Branch.

The suspect in custody was claiming to have been out front at the time of the assassination.

He was describing events that only someone who had actually been there could have known.

And there was every danger that a photo or film would emerge showing him at the front entrance.

 

The sum of all fears seemed to come true when people started looking closely at the doorway area in the Altgens 6 photograph which had gone out on newswire.

 

5aim6Ek.jpg

 

Cue an immediate investigation by the FBI.

 

They made a beeline for Billy Lovelady, as he would recall for Dom Bonafede several months later:

 

XLVYoyv.jpg

 

The relief of the agents tells us all we need to know:

Oswald's being out front at the time of the shooting was an all too live scenario, for it was the scenario that he himself was claiming in custody.

If Oswald himself were placing himself far from the front entrance--such as in or around the second-floor lunchroom--then there would be no earthly cause for worry about what the assassination-time visual record might thrown up.

But he wasn't, so there was.

 

The authorities lucked out in a big way on its being Lovelady in Altgens, but what guarantee was there that another Oswaldian image would not show up over the coming days?

And what better way--what other way--to indemnify themselves against this eventuality than to keep Lovelady on the steps for a good 3 minutes should he be needed to explain away any such image?

(That Lovelady has been seriously proposed as Prayer Man by several researchers over the past couple of weeks has shown, this time rather farcically, the continued explanatory power he still holds for those intent on keeping Oswald away from that front entrance.)

Speaking of other Oswaldian images, I've always found it rather odd that, considering the number of people in Dealey Plaza that day, so few photographs of the assassination have emerged.



#755 Sean Murphy

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 11:49 PM

 

BTW, could you provide a link to the statement or testimony from Pauline Sanders that confirms this?

Thank you, Sean. I must seem a bit anal asking for documentation but, I don't believe in giving skeptics and LN's any more reasons than they already have for taking cheap shots at your research.

 

Keep up the good work.

 

 

You're very welcome, Robert.

S.



#756 Sean Murphy

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 12:33 AM

The true incident at the front entrance involved Marrion Baker's asking Oswald if he worked there.

Later that evening, the DPD (through Jesse Curry and Detective Ed Hicks) openly talked to the press about this incident, only they gave it a definite spin:

Oswald had been 'stopped' as he was 'leaving' the building.

In reality he had been standing on the steps for the assassination itself, having (as the Hughes film suggests) slipped out just as the President was approaching the turn on to Elm St.

It is possible, indeed likely, that not a soul had noticed Oswald there and that he had only been noticed when Baker ran up to the entrance and addressed him.

 

**

 

Thus we have Phase One of the suppression of Oswald's alibi:

Pretend he was exiting the building and had the good fortune to be 'let go' by the officer.

 

**

 

This story collapsed, and quickly.

It soon became apparent that too many people had witnessed Baker and Truly's extraordinarily early dash into the building.

The timeline just didn't work.

So the incident had to be relocated to the rear area of the building.

 

**

 

Phase Two: Baker's phoney affidavit story of having caught a man "walking away from the rear stairway" on the "third or fourth" floor.

 

That story collapsed too, and quickly, for reasons that have already been laid out (Vicki Adams & Baker himself).

It gets buried, and not a word of this rear stairway encounter is ever breathed to the press.

 

**

 

Cue Phase Three: the second-floor lunchroom story.

 

It first comes into being in Roy Truly's FBI interview given late on 11/22:

 

RGHiigb.jpg

 

 

One notes four things:

1. The impression given that the officer had to go through only one door off the landing in order to access the lunchroom.

2. The indication that Oswald was "apparently alone".

3. The lack of any description of Oswald's position in the lunchroom: was he sitting or standing?

4. The heavy emphasis on the lunchroom's lack of windows facing the outside: what a peculiar place for someone to be in when everyone else had been watching the motorcade.

 

#1 marks what will be an intractable problem at the heart of the lunchroom story.

#2 and #3 marks the hedging of bets as the details are still being worked out.

# 4 discloses the game plan:

The second-floor lunchroom is the only available place anywhere near the rear stairway to which the incident can possibly be relocated, and we're going to make the very best of it.

Oswald's mooching around in the belly of the building will be portrayed as incongruous and suspicious, precisely the kind of place an assassin would take cover and try to act 'normal' in.

 

**

 

And this line will be taken up with enthusiasm by the constitutionally defensive Curry on the Saturday, as he tries to make up for his gaffe of the day before.

No, folks, one of our men didn't let Oswald go as he was leaving the building.

For Oswald, cunning killer that he was, took the kind of clever cover that no police officer could have been blamed for being fooled by.

And not alone that, he managed to blend in where there were other people present.

From the New York Times 11/24 (click to enlarge):

 

JLBMzDj.jpg

 

 

The point of course is that Curry is telling the truth in this regard:

He had been told, quite accurately, that Oswald had been 'stopped' by the officer at the front entrance in front of other people.

Now he's clumsily and/or cynically importing this detail up to the second-floor lunchroom in order to deflect criticism of the decision by his officer to let Oswald go.

 

**

 

It would be tempting to write this off as Curry's singular error or embellishment.

However the factoid lingers in an FBI report from Dec 10:

 

aRg5esW.jpg

 

Interestingly, the original draft of this 'answer' shows that the "other individuals" was not a carelessly included detail but something considered worthy of definite mention:

 

82tadPc.jpg

 

 

All of this is symptomatic of a story that stubbornly refuses to stabilise.


Edited by Sean Murphy, 19 September 2013 - 01:57 AM.


#757 Steve Mcdonagh

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 12:40 AM

There was a second powerful reason why, in the immediate aftermath of the assassination, Billy Lovelady had to be artificially kept on the front steps:

he resembled Oswald.

 

We underestimate at our peril the sheer panic that must have been abroad at DPD HQ and at FBI Special Branch.

The suspect in custody was claiming to have been out front at the time of the assassination.

He was describing events that only someone who had actually been there could have known.

And there was every danger that a photo or film would emerge showing him at the front entrance.

 

The sum of all fears seemed to come true when people started looking closely at the doorway area in the Altgens 6 photograph which had gone out on newswire.

 

5aim6Ek.jpg

 

Cue an immediate investigation by the FBI.

 

They made a beeline for Billy Lovelady, as he would recall for Dom Bonafede several months later:

 

XLVYoyv.jpg

 

The relief of the agents tells us all we need to know:

Oswald's being out front at the time of the shooting was an all too live scenario, for it was the scenario that he himself was claiming in custody.

If Oswald himself were placing himself far from the front entrance--such as in or around the second-floor lunchroom--then there would be no earthly cause for worry about what the assassination-time visual record might thrown up.

But he wasn't, so there was.

 

The authorities lucked out in a big way on its being Lovelady in Altgens, but what guarantee was there that another Oswaldian image would not show up over the coming days?

And what better way--what other way--to indemnify themselves against this eventuality than to keep Lovelady on the steps for a good 3 minutes should he be needed to explain away any such image?

(That Lovelady has been seriously proposed as Prayer Man by several researchers over the past couple of weeks has shown, this time rather farcically, the continued explanatory power he still holds for those intent on keeping Oswald away from that front entrance.)

 

Hi Sean

 

Are there any pictures/film that show Lovelady and PM in the same frame at the same time?

 

Thanks - Steve

 

PS: Great thread so far, keep up the good work you guys.



#758 Sean Murphy

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 12:44 AM

Hi Sean

 

Are there any pictures/film that show Lovelady and PM in the same frame at the same time?

 

Thanks - Steve

 

PS: Great thread so far, keep up the good work you guys.

 

 

Hi Steve,

 

Yes--the Wiegman film, taken in the middle of the assassination:

 

miuzWAz.jpg



#759 Steve Mcdonagh

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 01:43 AM

The true incident at the front entrance involved Marrion Baker's asking Oswald if he worked there.

Later that evening, the DPD (through Jesse Curry and Detective Ed Hicks) openly talked to the press about this incident, only they gave it a definite spin:

Oswald had been 'stopped' as he was 'leaving' the building.

In reality he had been standing on the steps for the assassination itself, having (as the Hughes film suggests) slipped out just as the President was approaching the turn on to Elm St.

It is possible, indeed likely, that not a soul had noticed Oswald there and that he had only been noticed when Baker ran up to the entrance and addressed him.

 

**

 

Thus we have Phase One of the suppression of Oswald's alibi:

Pretend he was exiting the building and had the good fortune to be 'let go' by the officer.

 

**

 

This story collapsed, and quickly.

It soon became apparent that too many people had witnessed Baker and Truly's extraordinarily early dash into the building.

The timeline just didn't work.

So the incident had to be relocated to the rear area of the building.

 

**

 

Phase Two: Baker's phoney affidavit story of having caught a man "walking away from the rear stairway" on the "third or fourth" floor.

 

That story collapsed too, and quickly, for reasons that have already been laid out (Vicki Adams & Baker himself).

It gets buried, and not a word of this rear stairway encounter is ever breathed to the press.

 

**

 

Cue Phase Three: the second-floor lunchroom story.

 

It first comes into being in Roy Truly's FBI interview given late on 11/22:

 

RGHiigb.jpg

 

 

One notes four things:

1. The impression given that the officer had to go through only one door off the landing in order to access the lunchroom.

2. The indication that Oswald was "apparently alone".

3. The lack of any description of Oswald's position in the lunchroom: was he sitting or standing?

4. The heavy emphasis on the lunchroom's lack of windows facing the outside: what a peculiar place for someone to be in when everyone else had been watching the motorcade.

 

#1 marks what will be an intractable problem at the heart of the lunchroom story.

#2 and #3 marks the hedging of bets as the details are still being worked out.

# 4 discloses the game plan:

The second-floor lunchroom is the only available place anywhere near the rear stairway to which the incident can possibly be relocated, and we're going to make the very best of it.

Oswald's mooching around in the belly of the building will be portrayed as incongruous and suspicious, precisely the kind of place an assassin would take cover and try to act 'normal' in.

 

**

 

And this line will be taken up with enthusiasm by the constitutionally defensive Curry on the Saturday, as he tries to make up for his gaffe of the day before.

No, folks, one of our men didn't let Oswald go as he was leaving the building.

For Oswald, cunning killer that he was, took the kind of clever cover that no police officer could have been blamed for being fooled by.

And not alone that, he managed to blend in where there were other people present.

From the New York Times 11/24 (click to enlarge):

 

JLBMzDj.jpg

 

 

The point of course is that Curry is telling the truth in this regard:

He had been told, quite accurately, that Oswald had been 'stopped' by the officer at the front entrance in front of other people.

Now he's clumsily and/or cynically importing this detail up to the second-floor lunchroom in order to deflect criticism of the decision by his officer to let Oswald go.

 

**

 

It would be tempting to write this off as Curry's singular error or embellishment.

However the factoid lingers in an FBI report from Dec 10:

 

aRg5esW.jpg

 

Interestingly, the original draft of this 'answer' shows that the "other individuals" was not a carelessly included detail but something considered worthy of definite mention:

 

82tadPc.jpg

 

 

All of this is symptomatic of a story that stubbornly refuses to solidify.

 

Hi Sean

 

I have an observation/scenario and I wondered how it fits into your timeline/thesis?

 

Does the speed in which Baker runs into the building likely mean he initially entered the vestibule alone (Truly having not caught up with him yet) and therefore engaged Oswald alone (probably asking for directions to the lift or stairs)? If this is the case then Baker did indeed inadvertently let Oswald leave thereby creating a double embarrassing situation not only for Baker but for the DPD in general, because Oswald will soon be confirmed as both JFK “assassin” and JD Tippit “killer”.

 

I can’t imagine how much a haunting situation this must have been for Baker, the guilt must have been unbearable? Not to mention any blame attached to him by colleagues for the death of Tippit.

 

Now enter Truly who likely comes into the action shortly after the Oswald/Baker first floor encounter offering his services and (with a little bit of work in progress over the next 24/48 hours) provides the DPD with the single most “reason” Baker (gun drawn and all) lets Oswald go. And for his timely intervention the ‘ordinary’ Truly not only becomes the main man leading the charge of the light brigade up the stairs, but also the guy who astutely informs everyone that Oswald is missing? Not a bad day’s work under the circumstances.

 

It’s just an observation but it may negate the need to “pressure” Baker or Truly into anything when smudging what really happened saves the blushes of Baker (and subsequently the DPD) and sends Truly's stock skywards.

 

Keep up the excellent work.

 

Thanks – Steve



#760 Steve Mcdonagh

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 01:48 AM

 

Hi Sean

 

Are there any pictures/film that show Lovelady and PM in the same frame at the same time?

 

Thanks - Steve

 

PS: Great thread so far, keep up the good work you guys.

 

 

Hi Steve,

 

Yes--the Wiegman film, taken in the middle of the assassination:

 

miuzWAz.jpg

 

 

Sean.

 

Well if they are sharing the same image they obviously can't be the same person.

 

Thanks - Steve



#761 Sean Murphy

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 01:56 AM

We will never be able to reconstruct exactly when and by whom each tweak to the second-floor lunchroom story was effected.

The broad evolution of the story is however fairly clear, and it centres around the problem of explaining why Marrion Baker 'popped his head' into the lunchroom in the first place.

 

**

 

Roy Truly's first on-the-record statement (his FBI interview given late 11/22) simply states that the officer saw Oswald in the lunchroom.

No details are given as to what exactly he saw Oswald doing:

 

RGHiigb.jpg

 

**

 

This same vagueness marks Truly's affidavit statement the next day (click to enlarge):

 

zLecWJ5.gif

 

Someone unfamiliar with the layout of the second floor would come away from reading this with the distinct impression that the lunchroom must have been straight off the landing, if not indeed in the officer's path as he made his way to the next flight of stairs--a scenario fitting not the rear stairway story but the very first story of Baker and Truly's having come up the front stairs and then taken a path through the office or corridor leading right by the lunchroom.

 

**

 

The FBI report on Truly's affidavit statement--they sat in on the affidavit-taking!--studiously maintains the vagueness necessary to collapsing the earlier version (front stairs) on to the new version (rear stairs):

 

 dS3oxWj.jpg

 

Lee Oswald was in the lunch room: that's all we need to know.

And we certainly don't need to be informed that the door leading off the landing was not the lunchroom door but an automatically self-closing door leading into a small connecting passage off which there was another door belonging to the lunchroom.

Again the reader is left with the erroneous impression that the officer needed only to take a peek through one door--a door which he was passing in any case--in order to see into the lunchroom.

A very large incompatibility between two stories is being evaded here, and it will take more than a few days to sort it out.

 

**

 

It is our friend Jesse Curry who will fill in the gap in the meantime as to what exactly the officer did supposedly see when he looked into the lunchroom:

 

Oswald sitting at one of the tables, the very picture of post-assassination nonchalance.

 

Truly himself will endorse this detail:

 

4uUW9Uj.jpg

 

And it will be reflected in the culminating action of the Oswald stand-in in the Secret Service reconstruction film made within days of the assassination:

 

g7LFh6E.jpg

 

**

 

As far as I have been able to ascertain, this little tableau will survive until nearly the end of the month, along with its supporting fiction of the officer's just having--in a moment of inspiration--happened to have popped his head into the lunchroom. 

 

By the start of December, however, Oswald will have been brought to his feet.

For, if the translation of the front-stairway-to-lunchroom story to the rear-stairway-to-lunchroom story is to be completed successfully, the officer needs to be given a reason for interrupting his flight upstairs, going all the way over to the door to the passage way to the door to the lunchroom and checking out what's in that lunchroom.


Edited by Sean Murphy, 19 September 2013 - 02:11 AM.


#762 Vince Palamara

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 02:56 AM

I just wanted to interject my opinion here: this is the most fascinating thread I have ever read on here (since 2008 or so). I am most impressed with everyone's contributions here. I must admit that I started out feeling that this was a bit like a Rorschach Test with a healthy does of wishful thinking. I am just glad I kept reading! I am very compelled to believe that Prayer Man is indeed Oswald- the Blu Ray stills are much better tools than the earlier grainy clips.

Excellent job everyone.

#763 Robert Prudhomme

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 03:02 AM

I just wanted to interject my opinion here: this is the most fascinating thread I have ever read on here (since 2008 or so). I am most impressed with everyone's contributions here. I must admit that I started out feeling that this was a bit like a Rorschach Test with a healthy does of wishful thinking. I am just glad I kept reading! I am very compelled to believe that Prayer Man is indeed Oswald- the Blu Ray stills are much better tools than the earlier grainy clips.

Excellent job everyone.


My sentiments, as well, Vince. This thread just keeps getting better and better, and I am addicted to it now like serial installments of a detective story. I get up each morning and race to my computer to see what new material has been unearthed.

I only worry about one thing. What will we do with our time if it is proven that Prayer Man IS Oswald?? :(

#764 Vince Palamara

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 03:08 AM

Oh, that would be just the beginning- you would have to convince everyone, tie up an avalanche of loose ends, etc. This would be a major break through of epic proportions...it may already fit this category.

#765 Vince Palamara

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 03:23 AM

At the risk of a collective roll of eyes (LOL), my girlfriend, a total amateur (an accomplished artist who has an amazing never-forget-a-face honesty to her personality), is convinced Prayer Man is Oswald AND has an interesting opinion on all of this [hey, it is our goal to appeal to rank amateurs as well as preaching to the choir, correct? I preface this with the comment that we are both persuaded by Barry Ernest's outstanding book and the ramifications it holds for Oswald's actual movements]: Oswald's rifle WAS used in the assassination by someone else (with or without his knowledge) and he WAS downstairs before the assassination and, at the appropriate time, outside during the murder. His rifle was guilty but HE was NOT...and at least one other gunman was firing from the front.

Hey, pretty good for a non-researcher :) And, again- the goal IS to appeal to the public, not just ourselves.




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