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Oswald Leaving TSBD?


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#781 Sean Murphy

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 12:24 PM

 

Hi Sean

 

I’m not sure if any of this helps as you seem to have it all figured out, but isn't Truly confirming Baker entered the building alone when he says “I saw an officer break through the crowd and go into our building”

 

Thanks – Steve

 

 

Exactly, Steve. That's the only part of the Baker-Truly interaction that couldn't be rewritten as it had happened in front of lots of people--and had been caught on film.



#782 Sean Murphy

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 01:05 PM

It's impossible to pinpoint with exactitude the moment that Lee Oswald was brought to his feet in the second-floor lunchroom, but it seems to have happened on either the 27th or 28th of November.

 

From The Evening Star, Nov 29:

 

CEjUU25.jpg

 

 

Again one notes the impression given that the lunchroom was simply a room--one of several here--passed by the officer en route to the rear stairway.

 

But what I wish to focus on here is the "counter" detail.

 

Note that Truly is the obvious and sole source of the "counter" detail.

 

QURW42H.jpg

 

How does the reporter know there is indeed a counter in the lunchroom? Because Truly has told him.

He has given the reporter a clear picture of Oswald leaning in all brazen nonchalance against the counter just inside the door.

Truly cannot possibly be inferring this image from having himself come on the scene just seconds after this, when Oswald is (as per his and Baker's WC testimony) at the door with Baker holding his revolver up to him.

Nor can he have learned it from the officer, whom he "has not seen [ ] since".

No--just like the now discarded "sitting at one of the tables" image, this is an invention that Truly is giving or has been directed to give.

 

**

 

But why has Oswald been brought to his feet?

The answer comes in two parts.

Part one is: timeline.

It has becoming increasingly evident that Oswald, the sixth floor assassin, needs to be made appear as though he has only just arrived in the lunchroom.

 

 

**

 

Part two is: motivation for Baker to check out the lunchroom in the first place.

 

By the first of December, this last becomes that bit clearer as Oswald is moved from the "counter" over to the coke machine.

 

akGtrxO.jpg

 

Again, bear in mind that Truly (as he will later tell the WC) is not supposed to have had any contact with Baker since they parted ways on 11/22.

 

Yet he is 'guessing' with uncanny accuracy what Baker will months later testify to as to the location of Oswald in the lunchroom when he caught his first sighting of him in there.

 

From the Sunday Bulletin of Philadelphia Dec 1:

 

fUG2vXr.jpg

 

From the Washington Post Dec 1:

 

WgMXVYi.jpg

 

 

Why is Oswald now being put over by the coke machine?

In order to push the explanation that Baker took his significant detour over to the lunchroom because of a noise he heard:

the noise of a coke machine in operation.


Edited by Sean Murphy, 19 September 2013 - 01:10 PM.


#783 Bjørn Gjerde

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 03:04 PM

Sean,

 

It seems to me that in the early versions of the lunchroom story, Baker and Truly are asecending the stairs from the entrance lobby to the second floor, and then go past the office area and past the lunch room on their way to the back stairs. Only in later versions, do they go to the back stairs via the first floor. Maybe they initially didn't know that Geneva Hine was on the second floor?

 

Bjørn Gjerde



#784 Pat Speer

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 03:51 PM

Whoa, fellas, you're still way ahead of yourselves, IMO. BEFORE you can say Prayer Man is probably Oswald, IMO, you really need to go through the photographic record and identify everyone else on the steps. If you can't do that, then you need to accept the possibility that unidentified people were on the steps, and that, therefore, Prayer Man could be an unidentified person. In other words, almost anyone.

 

 

Where are these people in the photographs? And who were the other people around them?

 

Buell Wesley Frazier (11-22-63 affidavit for Dallas County, 24H209) “I was standing on the front steps of the building when the parade came by, and I watched the parade go by. After President Kennedy had got out of my sight, I heard three shots. I stood there, then people started running by, and I turned, and went back in the building.” (12-5-63 sworn statement to the U.S. Secret Service, CD87 p796) "I was standing on the front steps when the parade passed in front of the building.  When the shooting occurred, I did not realize the shots were really shots until the second one.  At first I thought it was backfire.  I did not realize the shots had come from this building but thought they had come from somewhere around the triple underpass or railroad tracks." (3-11-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 2H210-245) (On his location during the shooting) "I was standing on the steps there and watched for the parade to come by and so I did and I stood there until he come by." (On who was with him at this time) "I stayed around there pretty close to Mr. Shelley and this boy Billy Lovelady and just standing there, people talking and just talking about how pretty a day it turned out to be, because I told you earlier it was an old cloudy and misty day and then it didn't look like it was going to be a pretty day at all." (Anybody else?) "There was a lady there, a heavy-set lady who worked upstairs there whose name is Sarah something, I don't know her last name." (On the shooting) “just right after he went by he hadn’t hardly got by, I heard a sound and if you have ever been around motorcycles you know how they backfire, and so I thought one of them motorcycles backfired…but it wasn’t just a few seconds that, you know, I heard two more of the same type of,  you know, sounds, and by that time people was running everywhere, and falling down and screaming, and naturally then I knew something was wrong…to be frank with you I thought it come from down there, where that underpass is.” (3-18-64 statement to the FBI, 22H647) “At the time President Kennedy was shot I was standing on the front steps of the Texas School Book Depository. I was with William H. Shelley…and Billy Lovelady.” (2-13-69 testimony in the trial of Clay Shaw) “Just right after they made the turn there was several motorcycle policeman leading the motorcade and right after they turned, after the car made the turn, it sounded like the motorcycles were backfiring…Shortly after there were two more in rapid succession.” (When asked if he knew they were rifle shots) "Well, the two that come in fast succession by that time, like I said, people were hollering, and then I recognized them, they were rifle shots." (When asked the time lapse between the first and second shots) " It was just a few seconds." (When asked the time lapse between the second and third) "When I heard the second noise, the third was followed nearly just right back to back. It was fired in rapid succession." (He was then asked to demonstrate the spacing of the shots by clapping his hands, but the spacing of his hand claps was not noted on the transcripts of the trial) (11-21-77 interview with HSCA investigators Moriarty and Day, edited down from a transcript provided by Richard Gilbride) "everybody was following the presidential motorcade...then I heard a loud sound--motorcycle backfire...from where I was standing, there was some trees and some people--so I actually couldn't see. But what had actually happened was the first shot...and then I heard the same sound. It wasn't anywheres even close to me...It was then that I realized--as people were beginning to run--and it became quite still. Before I had the chance to be heard, a sound--like a motorcycle backfire--what sounded like a backfire erupt." (When asked if the shots sounded the same) "the noises that I heard was all similar...they matched or they were from the 6th story...they seemed to be all pretty the same...Like I say, the first one that was fired, and then it seemed like it was only another few seconds and then they's coming up with another...they was in tandem. They was in the same area, the same direction. You know, like the same sound." (7-23-86 testimony in televised mock trial, On Trial: Lee Harvey Oswald) (When asked how many shots he heard) "Three." (When asked if he thought the shots came from the railroad) "Yes, sir, from the knoll there." (When asked again about the direction of the shots) "I thought they came from the knoll here." (He is then asked to write the words "grassy knoll" on a map of Dealey Plaza and put an X where he thought the shots had come from. He writes the words on the map to the west of the arcade, and then puts an X by these words at the northernmost point of the picket fence, in the railroad yards to the west of the arcade.)

(6-21-02 oral history with the Sixth Floor Museum) "I was standing at the top of the steps, the entrance, to the Texas School Book Depository. I was standing in the shadows...When they turned from Houston Street onto Elm there, and started down to the underpasses there, I remember I remarked to myself, I said, 'well, they look just like they do in the pictures'... (When asked how long it was after the limo had completed its turn onto Elm Street and started heading away that he heard the first shot) "It wasn't very long before there was a shot. And, as I said earlier, from listening to the motorcycles that was leading the President's car that had been backfiring, at first I thought it was a backfire from a motorcycle..." (When asked if the shot sounded like backfires) "Yes. But then shortly after, there was two more. By that time there was really chaos. There was people running and everything and you knew something wasn't right...I couldn't actually see what was going on in the President's car...After they had passed and dropped out of sight, I couldn't see what was going on." (When asked when he first realized Kennedy had been shot) "By the time the second and third shot was fired, I realized it wasn't a motorcycle backfire, because it had a different sound to it.  And I realized someone was firing, and people was, as I said in that whole area there was running and falling down..." (When asked from where he thought the shots were fired) "The sound to me at that time sounded like it was coming from up above...the only thing I can say is that I realized it was gunfire, but to be specific as to what building it was coming from other than saying it was coming from up above where we were standing, I can't be more specific than that..." (When asked how many shots) "I heard three shots. There was one, and then there was, the other two was much closer in succession." (When asked the length of the shooting) "I don't know exact, but probably, I would probably say all, and this is probably, I don't know for a fact, I would probably say all three shots was taken within 15 seconds...There was the first one, and then the second and third one was just almost just back to back. It was very fast." (When asked the time between the last two shots) "I would probably say, maybe five seconds, if it was that long." (When asked if there could have been more or fewer than three shots) "Not fewer than three...I heard three." (When asked where the car was when the first shot was fired) "It wasn't very far after it dropped out of my sight...I couldn't see the car...The car was out of my view when the first shot was fired...(When attempting to clarify his approximation of 15 seconds for the shooting) "If you take and fire a shot say like for instance on the first second, and then the second shot might not have been somewhere until like the 8th to 10th seconds, and then the third one I would say somewhere between the 10th and 15th." (3-27-13 appearance at the Irving Central Library, video found online) "I heard the shots...I was standing back in the shadows there--when you walk into the Texas School Book Building today, if you walk up in there, there's a space there, and I was standing there watching the parade back in the shadows. You can't see me, but I was there. After the third shot, it was really mayhem there...Sarah, the lady I was standing by up on the top step back in the shadows, we looked at one another. We really didn't have a lot to say." (7-13-13 appearance at the Sixth Floor Museum, as shown on C-Span) (When asked how many shots he heard) "Shots. I heard three. In that presidential parade--it was being led by--and there was motorcycle policemen, and these motorcycle policemen were cutting their motorcycles on and off. If you know anything or you ride motorcycles you know that you can do that and make 'em backfire...So when the first shot occurred, I thought it was just a motorcycle backfiring. Then it wasn't long after that that there was two and the two were closer in succession than between the first and second. And then I realized that that wasn't a motorcycle backfire, it was somebody shooting a weapon. And down here in Dealey Plaza, it was total chaos. People was running and screaming and falling down and hollering." (When asked if he had a sense where the shots were coming from) "The first one, when I was standing back on the top of the steps, sounded like it come to my right down where the motorcade was, But then the second and third sounded much closer..." (When describing what happened after the shots, after a crying woman came up to him and the woman standing next to him and told them the President had been shot.) "We looked bewildered. I turned to Sarah and she said 'she said somebody has shot the President.' And I said 'I thought that's what she said.' She said 'she did say that.''' (Frazier had thereby confirmed that Sarah Stanton was standing with him on the top of the steps both before the shots, and for several minutes after.) Analysis: while Frazier, Oswald’s car-pool buddy, placed the limousine close enough to the corner to suggest the LPM scenario in his testimony at the Shaw trial, he originally specified that the car was much further down the street and out of his sight. His grouping of the last two shots together supports this earlier statement. First shot hit 190-224. Last two shots bunched together.

William Lovelady stood on the front steps of the depository building and is easily identified in  James Altgens' photo of the assassination, with the President's limo in the foreground and the front steps of the depository in the background. Due to Lovelady's resemblance to Oswald, however, some have tried to claim it is not Lovelady on the steps but Oswald--a claim refuted by everyone standing in the area. (11-22-63 sworn affidavit, 24H214) “When the President came by, Bill Shelley and I was standing on the steps in front of the building where I work. After he had passed and was about 50 yards past us I heard three shots. There was a slight pause after the first shot then the next two was right close together. I could not tell where the shots came from but sounded like they were across the street from us. However, that could have been caused by the echo.” (11-22-63 FBI report, CD5 p332-333) "On November 22, 1963, Lovelady and his foreman, Bill Shelley, were standing on the front doorstep at 411 Elm Street at about 12:30 P.M. watching the Presidential motorcade pass. At about this time he heard three shots. At first he thought it was a firecracker or the backfire of a motorcycle." (12-2-63 FBI report on an investigation performed 11-25-63, CD385, p.8) "Mr. Billy Nolan Lovelady, 7722 Hume, Dallas, Texas, was exhibited an Associated Press photograph described as "DN 5, 11/22/63, Dallas, Texas," depicting an individual standing in the entrance of the TSBD who resembled Lee Harvey Oswald. Mr. Lovelady advised that he is an employee at the TSBD and is acquainted with Oswald. Lovelady immediately identified himself in the above-described photograph as being the individual who resembled OSWALD and stated he had observed himself previously in this photograph in the newspaper and was saving it. Lovelady stated there who was no question whatsoever but that this was a photograph of him." (3-2-64 FBI report on an investigation performed 2-29-64) "Billy Nolan Lovelady appeared at the Dallas FBI office at which time he consented to be photographed. Lovelady advised that on the day of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, November 22, 1963, at the time of the assassination and shortly before, he was standing in the doorway of the front entrance of the Texas School Book Depository...He stated he was wearing a red and white vertical striped shirt and blue jeans...Lovelady stated his picture has appeared in several publications which picture depict him on the far left side of the front doorway to the TSBD. Lovelady was exhibited a picture appearing on pages 4-5 of the magazine entitled Four Dark Days in History...He immediately identified the picture of the individual on the far left side of the doorway of the TSBD as being his photograph...Mr. Lovelady stated his close resemblance to Lee Harvey Oswald has become somewhat embarrassing." (3-19-64 statement to the FBI, 22H662) “At the time the presidential motorcade passed the Depository building heading west on Elm Street I was standing on the top step to the far right of the wall to the entrance way to the Texas School Book Depository Building. At this time I recall that William H. Shelley...and Mrs. Sarah Stanton...both of whom are likewise employed at the Texas School Book Depository, were standing next to me. I recall that following the passing of the Presidential motorcade, as the car in which the President was riding traveled down the Elm Street extension, I heard several loud reports which I first thought to be firecrackers, and which appeared to me to be in the direction of the Elm Street viaduct just ahead of the motorcade. I did not at any time believe the shots had come from the Texas School Book Depository Building. I am acquainted with Lee Harvey Oswald as a fellow employee only and I recall that on the morning of November 22, 1963, I was on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository putting down a new wooden floor when Oswald came over to me and asked where a certain book was stored. I don't recall name of the book but told him that book was out of stock. That is the last time I saw Oswald prior to the assassination of President John F. Kennedy...I recall that following the shooting, I ran toward the spot where President Kennedy's car had stopped. William Shelley and myself stayed in that area for approximately five minutes when we then re-entered the Depository building by the side door located on the west side of the building.” (4-7-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 6H336-341) (When asked who was with him on the front steps when the shots were fired) "Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton and right behind me..." (When asked what he heard) “I thought it was firecrackers or somebody celebrating the arrival of the President. It didn’t occur to me at first what had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the President had been shot." (When asked from where he thought the shots had been fired) "Right there around that concrete little deal on that knoll...to my right. I was standing as you are going down the steps, I was standing on the right, sounded like it was in that area...Between the underpass and the building right on that knoll." (When shown Exhibit 369--a photo by James Altgens of the shooting with President Kennedy's limo in the foreground, and Lovelady on the front steps of the book depository in the background, and asked to mark the picture and identify himself.) "Right there at the entrance of the building standing on the top of the step, would be here (indicating)...It would be your top level." (When asked what Gloria Calvery told him) "She had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit." (When asked what he and Shelley did after talking to Calvery) "We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying…and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.” (5-23-64 UPI article found in the 5-24-64 New York Times) "Billy Lovelady, an employee of the Texas Schoolbook Depository, identified himself today as the man seen in a doorway in a photo taken moments after President Kennedy was shot. 'I recall standing in the doorway and I have about 20 witnesses who were there near me,' he said. 'They will verify it was me.' Many newspapers in Europe published in weekend editions an American photograph taken a split second after Mr. Kennedy was shot last Nov. 22. The picture purported to show a man who looked like Lee H. Oswald, the accused assassin, standing in the doorway of the depository building. Newspaper descriptions said the man 'bears an extraordinary resemblance' to Oswald, who was shot two days later by Jack L. Ruby. Authorities said that minutes after the shooting Oswald was seen in a second-floor lunch-room of the building. The shots were fired from the sixth floor. The newspapers asked, 'If the man in the doorway was Oswald, who, then, fired the bullets which killed the President?' Mr. Lovelady, a stock clerk, said he had given testimony about the photo to agents of the Warren Commission investigating the assassination. He said he had also cooperated with the Federal Bureau of Investigation. He said that investigators for both the F.B.I. and the Warren Commission were satisfied it was he and not Oswald in the doorway. Mr. Lovelady said the F.B.I. had taken pictures of him from various angles and that he had been shown a three-by-four foot blowup of the doorway picture and asked if he was in it. 'I immediately pointed to myself in the doorway,' Mr. Lovelady said. He said he was about 15 to 20 pounds heavier than Oswald and about three inches shorter. Asked whether there was any resemblance to Oswald, he replied, 'I’m fatter in the face.' ''It was me in the doorway,' he said. 'If anyone doesn’t believe it, they will just have to take my word.' Dallas authorities said the photograph had been examined carefully after the assassination." (5-24-64 article by Dom Bonafede in the New York Herald-Tribune) (While discussing the person in the Altgens photo some claim is Oswald) "Lovelady maintains it is he standing in the doorway at the moment of the assassination. 'I was standing on the first step,' he told me when I interviewed him in Dallas two weeks ago. 'Several people saw me. That lady shielding her eyes works here on the second floor.' (While discussing the shots) "He said that while watching the motorcade from the doorway of the Book Depository he distinctly heard three shots--'there was one, then a pause, then two fast ones.'" Analysis: Lovelady’s and Shelley’s testimony that they returned to the building through a western entrance, an entrance unknown to Warren Commission counsel Joseph Ball, is one of the more surprising moments of the testimony. As there was no mention of this entrance being sealed off by the Dallas Police Department in the immediate aftermath of the shooting, it’s possible someone could have escaped through this door for some time after the shooting. Otherwise, Lovelady’s description of the shots, and of where the limousine was at the time of the shots, supports the scenario described by the bulk of the witnesses. First shot hit 190-224.  Last two shots bunched together.  

William Shelley (11-22-63 statement to the Dallas Sheriff’s Department, 24H226) “The President’s car was about halfway from Houston Street to the Triple Underpass when I heard what sounded like three shots. I couldn’t tell where they came from. I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot. The girl’s name is Gloria Calvery… I went back to the building and went inside and called my wife and told her what had happened. I was on the first floor then and I stayed at the elevator and was told not to let anyone out of the elevator. (3-18-64 statement to the FBI, 22H673) “as the Presidential motorcade passed I was standing just outside the glass doors of the entrance. At the time President Kennedy was shot, I was standing at this same place. Billy N. Lovelady who works under my supervision at the Texas School Book Depository was seated on the entrance steps just in front of me. I recall that Wesley Frazier, Mrs. Sarah Stanton, and Mrs, Carolyn Arnold, all employees of the Texas School Book Depository, were also standing in this entrance way near me at the time Pres. Kennedy was shot. I did not see Lee Harvey Oswald at the time Pres.Kennedy was shot. I did not observe any strangers in the building at any time during the morning of November 22, 1963. Immediately following the shooting, Billy N. Lovelady and I accompanied some uniformed police officers to the railroad yards just west of the building and returned through the west side door of the building about ten minutes later. I remained in the building until about 1:30 PM when I was asked to go to the Dallas Police Dept. to furnish an affidavit. I returned to the Texas School Book Depository about 5 PM. I did not leave the building until about 7 PM that day." (4-7-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 6H327-334) (When asked with whom he had lunch out on the front steps) "Well, there was Lloyd Viles of McGraw-Hill, Sarah Stanton, she's with Texas School Book, and Wesley Frazier and Billy Lovelady joined us shortly afterwards." (When asked where they were standing) "Just outside the glass doors there." (When asked what he heard) “I heard something sounded like it was a firecracker and a slight pause and then two more a little bit closer together…Sounded like a miniature cannon or baby giant firecracker, wasn’t real loud…Sounded like it came from the west…officers started running down to the lumber yards and Billy and I walked down that way. We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end…in the side door into the shipping room… I saw Eddie Piper… He was coming back from where he was watching the motorcade in the southwest corner of the shipping room.” Analysis:  Shelley places the limousine too far down Elm at the time of the first shots to be a reference to frame 160. He also heard the second two shots closer together. First shot hit 190-224.  Last two shots bunched together.

Sarah Stanton (11-23-63 FBI report, CD7 p.20) “Sarah Stanton...advised that she is employed in the second floor office of the Texas School Book Depository...and at about 12:30 on November 22, 1963, she was standing on the front steps as the President passed and shortly thereafter she heard three explosions; however, she did not know where they came from and immediately went into the building, caught the elevator, and went to the second floor offices, and into the office of the Southwestern Publishing Company, located there, to try to look out the window and see what was happening. She then went to the restroom and later returned to her desk.” (3-18-64 statement to the FBI, 22H675) “when President John F. Kennedy was shot, I was standing on the front steps of the Texas School Book Depository with Mr. William Shelley…Mr. Otis Williams…Mrs. T.B. Saunders…and Billy Lovelady. I heard three shots after the President’s car passed the front of the building but I could not see the President’s car at that time. I cannot say positively where the shots came from. I did not see Lee Harvey Oswald at that time or at any time during that day.” Analysis: while Stanton's statements help debunk the surprisingly resilient claim it was Oswald, and not Lovelady, in the Altgens photo, her description of the shooting itself is of little help. It is intriguing, nonetheless, that the purportedly well-spaced shots purportedly coming from directly above Ms. Stanton...were not recognized as such. Too vague.

Pauline Saunders (11-24-63 FBI report, 22H844) “advised she arrived at work at 8:45 A.M. on November 22, 1963 and immediately reported to main office where she was employed...she went outside to watch the presidential parade about 11:25 A.M...she stood in the last line of spectators nearest the door to the School Book Depository building…she could not recall the exact time but immediately after the Presidential parade passed she heard three loud blasts and she immediately realized that the shots or whatever it was came from the building above her…Mr. Campbell, Office Manager, arrived shortly after the police officer entered the building and she told him the blasts came from the upper part of the building however he insisted the shots came from the embankment.” (3-19-64 statement to the FBI, 22H672) “At approximately 12:20 PM on November 22, 1963, I left the lunchroom on the second floor of the building and went out the front entrance to await the arrival of the presidential motorcade which I knew was due to pass the Depository about 12:30 PM. I took up a position at the top of the front steps of the Depository building facing Elm Street. To the best of my recollection, I was standing on the top step at the east end of the entrance. I recall that while standing there I noticed Mrs. Sarah Stanton standing next to me, but I am unsure as to the others. Mrs. Stanton is likewise an employee of the Texas School Book Depository. To the best of my recollection I did not see Lee Harvey Oswald at any time on November 22, 1963, and although I knew him by sight as an employee of the building I did not know him by name and had never spoken to him at any time. I do not recall seeing any strangers in the Texas School Book Depository Building at any time on the morning of November 22, 1963. After the motorcade car carrying President John F. Kennedy passed, I remained a moment on the steps, then walked out to the concrete island in front of the Depository Building to see what had happened. I remained there a moment and then returned to the Depository Building through the main entrance. I then walked to the second floor where I usually worked.” Analysis: Although Mrs. Saunders tells us almost nothing on how the shots were fired, her brief statements are at least of some assistance in clearing up some other mysteries. For one, she says she left the lunch room at 12:20, but has no recollection of seeing Oswald on the day of the shooting. This works against Oswald's being in the second floor lunch room at that time. For two, she says she stood on the east side of the top step, and worked on the second floor. This, along with Billy Lovelady's claim the woman shielding her eyes in the Altgens photo worked on the second floor, suggests the possibility Saunders was this woman. If not her, then Stanton. Too vague.

Otis Williams (11-24-63 FBI report, CD5 p.64) “at the time the Presidential procession passed the Texas School Book Depository Building, Williams was on the front steps of the building. The Presidential car had just passed the building a few seconds and was out of sight over the embankment when Williams heard three loud blasts. He thought these blasts came from the location of the court house.” (2-18-64 report of the Dallas Police Department, box folder 19 file 20 of the Dallas JFK Archive) "He heard three shots that sounded like they were coming from the west side of the Texas School Book Depository. The president's car had gotten out of Mr. Williams' view when he heard the shots." (3-19-64 statement to the FBI, 22H683) “On November 22, 1963, at the time the Presidential motorcade passed the Texas School Book Depository, I was standing on the top step against the railing on the east side of the steps in front of the building. I do not recall who was standing at either side of me, but I do know that Mrs. Robert E. Saunders, also an employee of the Texas School Book Depository, viewed the motorcade. Just after the presidential car passed the building and went out of sight over the Elm Street embankment I heard three loud blasts. I thought these blasts or shots came from the direction of the viaduct which crosses Elm Street. I did not then know that President Kennedy had been shot. I remained momentarily on the steps and then returned inside the building.” (No More Silence p.116-120, published 1998) “when the motorcade came around the corner and then made that bend to get to the underpass, I had a clear view as it passed by of the President and all in the car, and then it went behind a little wall going toward the underpass. Probably five or ten seconds later is when I first thought I heard the shots. The first one I assumed someone threw a firecracker… It was about five or ten seconds before he was hit when he went out of my sight. I definitely heard three shots. Fact is, as soon as the third shot happened, and everybody commenced milling around, I thought it came from the underpass.” Analysis: even though Williams’ location for the shots appears to have changed (perhaps the FBI simply screwed up in their 11-24 report) he was consistent all along that the limousine had been out of his view for a number of seconds before the first shot was fired. This indicates the first shot rang out after frame 160.  First shot 190-224.

Joe Molina (11-23-63 report of the Dallas Police Department, box 3 folder 19 file 15 of the Dallas JFK Archive) "He states that he heard three shots; he did not know where they came from." (3-25-64 statement to the FBI, 22H664) “the car in which President Kennedy was riding passed the building…Just after his car disappeared from my view I heard three shots.” (4-7-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 6H368-373) "I was standing on the front steps...Right next left of me was Mr. Williams and close to there was Mrs. Sanders." (When asked what happened after the car passed) "I heard the shots…Sort of like it reverberated… kind of came from the west side…Of course, the first shot was fired then there was an interval between the first and second longer than the second and third.” Analysis: the familiar scenario. First shot hit 190-224.  Last two shots bunched together.

Roy Lewis (12-9-63 FBI report, CD205, p23) “viewed the Presidential motorcade and heard the shots…but could offer no information as to where the shots had come from.” (2-18-64 report of the Dallas Police Department, CD950, p.54) "Subject stated that he was in the entrance of the building when the president was assassinated." (3-18-64 statement to the FBI, 22H661) “I stood by myself on the inside of the entrance to the Texas School Book Depository to watch President John F. Kennedy come by the building in a motorcade. I heard three shots fired from somewhere above me, but was unable to see the person who fired them.“ (No More Silence, p.84-89, published 1998) “I was standing with some ladies from up in the offices right in the middle of the steps in front of the building that led to the sidewalk beyond the glass door. As the motorcade came by, I remember seeing Kennedy brushing back his hair. That’s when all hell broke loose! I heard BOOM!... BOOM!... BOOM! with the second and third shots being closer together. The people down in front of me hit the ground then everybody started running toward the grassy knoll… I didn’t see any smoke or smell any gunpowder, nor could I tell the direction of the shots because it was like an echo there.  But no way did I suspect anything coming from the Texas School Book Depository.” Analysis: Lewis’ recent recollection differs quite a bit from what he told the FBI. Perhaps he was trying to keep the names of the women on the front steps out of his statement. As Kennedy brushed back his hair around Z-140, it’s possible Lewis is describing the LPM scenario. Still, since he says the last two shots were grouped together, it seems likely a few seconds passed before the first shot. Probable first shot hit 190-224.  Last two shots probably bunched together. 



#785 Robert Prudhomme

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 05:54 PM

Quote from William Shelley's testimony to the Warren Commission, April 7, 1964:

 

"(When asked with whom he had lunch out on the front steps) "Well, there was Lloyd Viles of McGraw-Hill, Sarah Stanton, she's with Texas School Book, and Wesley Frazier and Billy Lovelady joined us shortly afterwards."

 

This is an odd thing for Shelley to say, as it is in direct contradiction to the statement given by Lloyd Viles to the FBI on March 23, 1964, in which Viles claims to be on the other side of Elm St. from the TSBD at the time of the assassination:

 

http://www.history-m...alysis/Witness/

 

Is it possible that Viles ate his lunch on the steps of the TSBD, as Shelley claimed, and then crossed to the other side of Elm St. before the motorcade arrived?


Edited by Robert Prudhomme, 19 September 2013 - 07:41 PM.


#786 Sean Murphy

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 07:32 PM

Whoa, fellas, you're still way ahead of yourselves, IMO. BEFORE you can say Prayer Man is probably Oswald, IMO, you really need to go through the photographic record and identify everyone else on the steps. If you can't do that, then you need to accept the possibility that unidentified people were on the steps, and that, therefore, Prayer Man could be an unidentified person. In other words, almost anyone.

 

 

Where are these people in the photographs? And who were the other people around them?

 

Buell Wesley Frazier (11-22-63 affidavit for Dallas County, 24H209) “I was standing [etc]

 

Pat,

 

The location of every single TSBD employee (bar Oswald) has been established for the time of the assassination.

 

Of all the TSBD employees (bar Oswald) who turned up for work that day, the following place themselves on the front steps:

 

Avery Davis

Judy McCully

Ruth Dean

Madie Reese

Carl Jones

Roy Lewis

Joe Molina

Otis Williams

Pauline Sanders

Sarah Stanton

Bill Shelley

Billy Lovelady

Buell Wesley Frazier

 

It has already been safely established that none of the above can possibly be Prayer Man.

 

If you disagree, perhaps you could

a ) identify who in the above list you believe Prayer Man might be

and

b ) support that claim with evidence.

 

In the likely event that you cannot support any such claim with evidence, will it then be your argument that Prayer Man is at least as likely to be a non-TSBD employee as to be a TSBD employee?


Edited by Sean Murphy, 19 September 2013 - 08:24 PM.


#787 Richard Hocking

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 09:41 PM

Quote from William Shelley's testimony to the Warren Commission, April 7, 1964:

 

"(When asked with whom he had lunch out on the front steps) "Well, there was Lloyd Viles of McGraw-Hill, Sarah Stanton, she's with Texas School Book, and Wesley Frazier and Billy Lovelady joined us shortly afterwards."

 

This is an odd thing for Shelley to say, as it is in direct contradiction to the statement given by Lloyd Viles to the FBI on March 23, 1964, in which Viles claims to be on the other side of Elm St. from the TSBD at the time of the assassination:

 

http://www.history-m...alysis/Witness/

 

Is it possible that Viles ate his lunch on the steps of the TSBD, as Shelley claimed, and then crossed to the other side of Elm St. before the motorcade arrived?

Robert,

 

 

Viles said he was Across Elm St from the main entrance of TSBD with Kounas and Parker

http://www.aarclibra...H22_CE_1381.pdf

 

Parker said she was standing with Viles and Kounas

http://www.aarclibra...H22_CE_1381.pdf

 
Kounas said she was standing across the street with Viles and Parker

from http://jfk.ci.dallas...29/2949-002.gif

 

I don't know about lunch, but your take sounds reasonable ... paused on the steps and then crossed the street as the motorcade got closer.

 


#788 Pat Speer

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 11:46 PM

 

Whoa, fellas, you're still way ahead of yourselves, IMO. BEFORE you can say Prayer Man is probably Oswald, IMO, you really need to go through the photographic record and identify everyone else on the steps. If you can't do that, then you need to accept the possibility that unidentified people were on the steps, and that, therefore, Prayer Man could be an unidentified person. In other words, almost anyone.

 

 

Where are these people in the photographs? And who were the other people around them?

 

Buell Wesley Frazier (11-22-63 affidavit for Dallas County, 24H209) “I was standing [etc]

 

Pat,

 

The location of every single TSBD employee (bar Oswald) has been established for the time of the assassination.

 

Of all the TSBD employees (bar Oswald) who turned up for work that day, the following place themselves on the front steps:

 

Avery Davis

Judy McCully

Ruth Dean

Madie Reese

Carl Jones

Roy Lewis

Joe Molina

Otis Williams

Pauline Sanders

Sarah Stanton

Bill Shelley

Billy Lovelady

Buell Wesley Frazier

 

It has already been safely established that none of the above can possibly be Prayer Man.

 

If you disagree, perhaps you could

a ) identify who in the above list you believe Prayer Man might be

and

b ) support that claim with evidence.

 

In the likely event that you cannot support any such claim with evidence, will it then be your argument that Prayer Man is at least as likely to be a non-TSBD employee as to be a TSBD employee?

 

 

In order to claim these people can not possibly be Prayer Man, you need to be able to identify each and every one of them in the films and photographs. But we can't do that with any authority because we don't know what most of these people looked like.

 

We can do a head count, however.  Thirteen TSBD employees claimed they were on the steps. So, how many people are on the steps in Wiegman? Or Altgens?

 

On quick glance, I count eight or nine. Which means three or four of these employees could be Prayer Man.


Edited by Pat Speer, 19 September 2013 - 11:55 PM.


#789 Sean Murphy

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 12:14 AM

 

 

Whoa, fellas, you're still way ahead of yourselves, IMO. BEFORE you can say Prayer Man is probably Oswald, IMO, you really need to go through the photographic record and identify everyone else on the steps. If you can't do that, then you need to accept the possibility that unidentified people were on the steps, and that, therefore, Prayer Man could be an unidentified person. In other words, almost anyone.

 

 

Where are these people in the photographs? And who were the other people around them?

 

Buell Wesley Frazier (11-22-63 affidavit for Dallas County, 24H209) “I was standing [etc]

 

Pat,

 

The location of every single TSBD employee (bar Oswald) has been established for the time of the assassination.

 

Of all the TSBD employees (bar Oswald) who turned up for work that day, the following place themselves on the front steps:

 

Avery Davis

Judy McCully

Ruth Dean

Madie Reese

Carl Jones

Roy Lewis

Joe Molina

Otis Williams

Pauline Sanders

Sarah Stanton

Bill Shelley

Billy Lovelady

Buell Wesley Frazier

 

It has already been safely established that none of the above can possibly be Prayer Man.

 

If you disagree, perhaps you could

a ) identify who in the above list you believe Prayer Man might be

and

b ) support that claim with evidence.

 

In the likely event that you cannot support any such claim with evidence, will it then be your argument that Prayer Man is at least as likely to be a non-TSBD employee as to be a TSBD employee?

 

 

In order to claim these people can not possibly be Prayer Man, you need to be able to identify each and every one of them in the films and photographs. But we can't do that with any authority because we don't know what most of these people looked like.

 

We can do a head count, however.  Thirteen TSBD employees claimed they were on the steps. So, how many people are on the steps in Wiegman? Or Altgens?

 

On quick glance, I count eight or nine. Which means three or four of these employees could be Prayer Man.

 

 

Okay, Pat, so you should have no trouble giving me the names of three or four employees from this list who could be Prayer Man:

 

Avery Davis

Judy McCully

Ruth Dean

Madie Reese

Carl Jones

Roy Lewis

Joe Molina

Otis Williams

Pauline Sanders

Sarah Stanton

Bill Shelley

Billy Lovelady

Buell Wesley Frazier

 

Actually let's make this easier, shall we?

Can you please give us even one name from the above list who, in your view, could be Prayer Man?



#790 Robert Prudhomme

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 12:19 AM

 

 

Whoa, fellas, you're still way ahead of yourselves, IMO. BEFORE you can say Prayer Man is probably Oswald, IMO, you really need to go through the photographic record and identify everyone else on the steps. If you can't do that, then you need to accept the possibility that unidentified people were on the steps, and that, therefore, Prayer Man could be an unidentified person. In other words, almost anyone.

 

 

Where are these people in the photographs? And who were the other people around them?

 

Buell Wesley Frazier (11-22-63 affidavit for Dallas County, 24H209) “I was standing [etc]

 

Pat,

 

The location of every single TSBD employee (bar Oswald) has been established for the time of the assassination.

 

Of all the TSBD employees (bar Oswald) who turned up for work that day, the following place themselves on the front steps:

 

Avery Davis

Judy McCully

Ruth Dean

Madie Reese

Carl Jones

Roy Lewis

Joe Molina

Otis Williams

Pauline Sanders

Sarah Stanton

Bill Shelley

Billy Lovelady

Buell Wesley Frazier

 

It has already been safely established that none of the above can possibly be Prayer Man.

 

If you disagree, perhaps you could

a ) identify who in the above list you believe Prayer Man might be

and

b ) support that claim with evidence.

 

In the likely event that you cannot support any such claim with evidence, will it then be your argument that Prayer Man is at least as likely to be a non-TSBD employee as to be a TSBD employee?

 

 

In order to claim these people can not possibly be Prayer Man, you need to be able to identify each and every one of them in the films and photographs. But we can't do that with any authority because we don't know what most of these people looked like.

 

We can do a head count, however.  Thirteen TSBD employees claimed they were on the steps. So, how many people are on the steps in Wiegman? Or Altgens?

 

On quick glance, I count eight or nine. Which means three or four of these employees could be Prayer Man.

 

Just a wild guess but, I think we can safely rule out the ones in skirts and dresses; unless there was a side to Oswald we are unaware of. :(



#791 Sean Murphy

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 01:21 PM

Major development.

Gary Mack has just emailed John Mytton, a LN poster at Duncan's forum:

 

While the image is an interesting find, the Prayer Man question has probably been answered.  I recently sent the Couch and Darnell frames to Buell Frazier and asked what he thought.  First, he wouldn’t confirm himself being on the top step because the image isn’t clear enough.  He then re-confirmed that Lovelady and Shelley were out on the steps with him, just as he has always said, but he couldn’t confirm Shelley, either, due to the image quality. 
 
Next I asked about Shelley’s appearance and learned he was a little taller than Lovelady (who was 5’8”), had red hair and a slender build.  When I asked if Shelley usually wore a coat and tie to work Buell said no, he “dressed daily in slacks and sport shirts.”  And he repeated that he, Lovelady and Shelley stayed on the steps for “a short time” after the last shot, but he didn’t estimate how long.
 
So unless Buell Frazier is still part of the cover-up plot, TSBD “Miscellaneous Department” manager William Shelley, by elimination, must be Prayer Man.  According to Shelley’s testimony, “I didn’t do anything for a minute” following the last shot, so the man was standing on the steps before, during and after the time Darnell and Couch filmed those brief scenes.
 
Gary Mack
 

 

**
 
This is a real breakthrough, and I for one am very grateful to Gary for taking the trouble to contact Buell Wesley Frazier.

Why is it a breakthrough?

Well, not because of the Shelley idea.
For Shelley's own testimony, and that of the person with him Billy Lovelady, rules him out as Prayer Man:

Mr. BALL - How did you happen to see Truly?
Mr. SHELLEY - We ran out on the island while some of the people that were out watching it from our building were walking back and we turned around and we saw an officer and Truly.
Mr. BALL - And Truly?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you see them go into the building?
MMr. SHELLEY - No; we didn't watch that long but they were at the first step like they were fixin' to go in.
Mr. BALL - Were they moving at the time, walking or running?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, they were moving, yes.


Darnell shows Baker just a couple of seconds away from the building entrance.
Prayer Man is still standing up on the steps.
So Shelley is ruled out. Period.
(Unless, that is, someone wants to accuse him and Lovelady of lying in their WC testimony about their run out on to the 'island'. Who wants to go first?)

The reason Buell Wesley Frazier's response is a breakthrough is that Bill Shelley appears to be the only possibility BWF himself can offer when presented with the Prayer Man image. (Although it's not quite clear from Gary's message whether BWF himself nominated Shelley or whether that's Gary's own suggestion.) 
Given that he is not giving us some new revelation as to the presence of some hitherto unmentioned other person on the steps at that time (i.e. a stranger to the building), and given that Prayer Man cannot possibly be Shelley, we have just received startling confirmation that Prayer Man can only reasonably be Lee Oswald.

lFPHGbd.jpg

BWF probably knows it's Lee but--for the most understandable reasons in the world--cannot say so.
However, to give him credit, he's just done the next best thing.

Edited by Sean Murphy, 20 September 2013 - 02:05 PM.


#792 Robert Prudhomme

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 02:59 PM

Major development.
Gary Mack has just emailed John Mytton, a LN poster at Duncan's forum:
 
While the image is an interesting find, the Prayer Man question has probably been answered.  I recently sent the Couch and Darnell frames to Buell Frazier and asked what he thought.  First, he wouldn’t confirm himself being on the top step because the image isn’t clear enough.  He then re-confirmed that Lovelady and Shelley were out on the steps with him, just as he has always said, but he couldn’t confirm Shelley, either, due to the image quality. 
 
Next I asked about Shelley’s appearance and learned he was a little taller than Lovelady (who was 5’8”), had red hair and a slender build.  When I asked if Shelley usually wore a coat and tie to work Buell said no, he “dressed daily in slacks and sport shirts.”  And he repeated that he, Lovelady and Shelley stayed on the steps for “a short time” after the last shot, but he didn’t estimate how long.
 
So unless Buell Frazier is still part of the cover-up plot, TSBD “Miscellaneous Department” manager William Shelley, by elimination, must be Prayer Man.  According to Shelley’s testimony, “I didn’t do anything for a minute” following the last shot, so the man was standing on the steps before, during and after the time Darnell and Couch filmed those brief scenes.
 
Gary Mack

 
 
**
 
This is a real breakthrough, and I for one am very grateful to Gary for taking the trouble to contact Buell Wesley Frazier.

Why is it a breakthrough?

Well, not because of the Shelley idea.
For Shelley's own testimony, and that of the person with him Billy Lovelady, rules him out as Prayer Man:

Mr. BALL - How did you happen to see Truly?
Mr. SHELLEY - We ran out on the island while some of the people that were out watching it from our building were walking back and we turned around and we saw an officer and Truly.
Mr. BALL - And Truly?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you see them go into the building?
MMr. SHELLEY - No; we didn't watch that long but they were at the first step like they were fixin' to go in.
Mr. BALL - Were they moving at the time, walking or running?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, they were moving, yes.


Darnell shows Baker just a couple of seconds away from the building entrance.
Prayer Man is still standing up on the steps.
So Shelley is ruled out. Period.
(Unless, that is, someone wants to accuse him and Lovelady of lying in their WC testimony about their run out on to the 'island'. Who wants to go first?)

The reason Buell Wesley Frazier's response is a breakthrough is that Bill Shelley appears to be the only possibility BWF himself can offer when presented with the Prayer Man image. (Although it's not quite clear from Gary's message whether BWF himself nominated Shelley or whether that's Gary's own suggestion.) 
Given that he is not giving us some new revelation as to the presence of some hitherto unmentioned other person on the steps at that time (i.e. a stranger to the building), and given that Prayer Man cannot possibly be Shelley, we have just received startling confirmation that Prayer Man can only reasonably be Lee Oswald.

lFPHGbd.jpg

BWF probably knows it's Lee but--for the most understandable reasons in the world--cannot say so.
However, to give him credit, he's just done the next best thing.

Awfully kind of Mr. Mack to cc the message to you.

#793 Ray Mitcham

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 03:07 PM

I bet Mytton is cursing himself for passing the email on. He obviously couldn't wait to pass the info on but forgot to look at the consequences. :up



#794 John Dolva

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 03:17 PM

"The location of every single TSBD employee (bar Oswald) has been established for the time of the assassination."

...

 

"we have just received startling confirmation that Prayer Man can only reasonably be Lee Oswald."



#795 Richard Hocking

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 03:29 PM

 

Major development.

Gary Mack has just emailed John Mytton, a LN poster at Duncan's forum:

 

While the image is an interesting find, the Prayer Man question has probably been answered.  I recently sent the Couch and Darnell frames to Buell Frazier and asked what he thought.  First, he wouldn’t confirm himself being on the top step because the image isn’t clear enough.  He then re-confirmed that Lovelady and Shelley were out on the steps with him, just as he has always said, but he couldn’t confirm Shelley, either, due to the image quality. 
 
Next I asked about Shelley’s appearance and learned he was a little taller than Lovelady (who was 5’8”), had red hair and a slender build.  When I asked if Shelley usually wore a coat and tie to work Buell said no, he “dressed daily in slacks and sport shirts.”  And he repeated that he, Lovelady and Shelley stayed on the steps for “a short time” after the last shot, but he didn’t estimate how long.
 
So unless Buell Frazier is still part of the cover-up plot, TSBD “Miscellaneous Department” manager William Shelley, by elimination, must be Prayer Man.  According to Shelley’s testimony, “I didn’t do anything for a minute” following the last shot, so the man was standing on the steps before, during and after the time Darnell and Couch filmed those brief scenes.
 
Gary Mack
 

 

**
 
This is a real breakthrough, and I for one am very grateful to Gary for taking the trouble to contact Buell Wesley Frazier.

Why is it a breakthrough?

Well, not because of the Shelley idea.
For Shelley's own testimony, and that of the person with him Billy Lovelady, rules him out as Prayer Man:

Mr. BALL - How did you happen to see Truly?
Mr. SHELLEY - We ran out on the island while some of the people that were out watching it from our building were walking back and we turned around and we saw an officer and Truly.
Mr. BALL - And Truly?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you see them go into the building?
MMr. SHELLEY - No; we didn't watch that long but they were at the first step like they were fixin' to go in.
Mr. BALL - Were they moving at the time, walking or running?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, they were moving, yes.


Darnell shows Baker just a couple of seconds away from the building entrance.
Prayer Man is still standing up on the steps.
So Shelley is ruled out. Period.
(Unless, that is, someone wants to accuse him and Lovelady of lying in their WC testimony about their run out on to the 'island'. Who wants to go first?)

The reason Buell Wesley Frazier's response is a breakthrough is that Bill Shelley appears to be the only possibility BWF himself can offer when presented with the Prayer Man image. (Although it's not quite clear from Gary's message whether BWF himself nominated Shelley or whether that's Gary's own suggestion.) 
Given that he is not giving us some new revelation as to the presence of some hitherto unmentioned other person on the steps at that time (i.e. a stranger to the building), and given that Prayer Man cannot possibly be Shelley, we have just received startling confirmation that Prayer Man can only reasonably be Lee Oswald.

lFPHGbd.jpg

BWF probably knows it's Lee but--for the most understandable reasons in the world--cannot say so.
However, to give him credit, he's just done the next best thing.

 

Excellent that we finally have heard from Buell Frazier.  Would have been nice to see the actual correspondence between BWF and Gary.

 

But I agree, Sean.  BWF, who was standing a couple feet away at the time, has effectively limited the possibilities to Shelley and Lovelady.  A powerful statement against any other employee or any stranger being at Prayer Man's location.  And we have thoroughly covered the possibilities of either Shelley or Lovelady being PM previously.

 

This thread just got a turbo boost.

 

On a side note, this throws a knuckleball into the previous discussions concerning the identification of Shelley and Senkel  in the William Shelley thread.






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