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Oswald Leaving TSBD?


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#841 Sean Murphy

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 09:37 AM



 


Sarah Stanton. You still haven't shown us where she is in the footage with Frazier standing near the top of the steps. He said he spoke to her just after the shots. Where is she?

 

 

It appears that you are cherry-picking your way through a bunch of statements in order to arrive at your preferred conclusion. You can not reasonably claim that Prayer Man is Oswald when you can't even say for sure Prayer Man is a man.

 

So that's one person on the steps who could be "Prayer Man." Shall we go for another?

 

How about Roy Lewis? He said he was alone in the entrance of the building when the shots were fired and that Oswald wasn't with him at the time of the shooting. If he's not Prayer Man, and Oswald was, then he would have to be considered a part of the cover-up.

 

Could he be Prayer Man? Why not? Because he's a negro? Couldn't he have been a light-skinned negro? I honestly don't know Lewis' skin tone. Do you?

 

What is it about Prayer Man that makes you so sure it's a white male? And Oswald? It's hard for me to believe that a number of people not involved in the conspiracy (Baker, Truly, Frazier, Lewis, Reid and ???) would all pretend they either didn't see Oswald at the front of the building after the shots, or that they did see him elsewhere in the building, and then keep this secret for decades.

 

I don't know who Prayer Man is. If you could identify all the people on the steps, and show how they were all employees of the TSBD, that would be a solid start toward making the case Oswald was Prayer Man, and that a number of people lied to cover it up.

 

There are no short-cuts around this, IMO.

 

 

I'm cherry-picking my way through a bunch of statements, Pat?

All I did was quote, without omission, the relevant text from www.patspeer.com.

 

If you now suddenly disagree with the following analysis--

 

Although Mrs. Saunders [sic] tells us almost nothing on how the shots were fired, her brief statements are at least of some assistance in clearing up some other mysteries. For one, she says she left the lunch room at 12:20, but has no recollection of seeing Oswald on the day of the shooting. This works against Oswald's being in the second floor lunch room at that time. For two, she says she stood on the east side of the top step, and worked on the second floor. This, along with Billy Lovelady's claim the woman shielding her eyes in the Altgens photo worked on the second floor, suggests the possibility Saunders was this woman. If not her, then Stanton.

 

--then I suggest you take the matter up with yourself and the two of you work up an amended version of the text.

 

I'm in a helpful mood so here's a first draft:

 

Although Mrs. Saunders [sic] tells us almost nothing on how the shots were fired, her brief statements are of no real assistance in clearing up any other mysteries. For one, she says she left the lunch room at 12:20, but has no recollection of seeing Oswald on the day of the shooting. This works against Oswald's being in the second floor lunch room at that time. For two, she says she stood on the east side of the top step, and worked on the second floor. But can we believe her? Her statement, along with Billy Lovelady's claim the woman shielding her eyes in the Altgens photo worked on the second floor, may suggest[ ] the possibility Saunders was this woman. If not her, then Stanton. However, it is perfectly possible and cannot be disproven that Stanton herself got down on her hands and knees, crawled over to the west side of the front entrance in order to secure a lousier view of the motorcade's progress and was subsequently too embarrassed to mention this fact to anyone. ANALYSIS: There is no hard evidence on record that Stanton was a feminine female, but every possibility she was a masculine female.

 

**

 

As for Sarah Stanton showing up in Altgens or Wiegman, why should she? Witness statements place her back in the shadows with Frazier and Pauline Sanders.

 

This may well be her to Frazier's immediate left in Darnell:

 

sFrr2JP.jpg

 

We have no earthly reason to believe that Sarah Stanton could possibly be Prayer Man.

Yet you insist on raising this profoundly silly idea.

Why?

 

**

 

Prayer Man a "light-skinned Negro"?

You cannot possibly be serious.

What's next?

Buell Wesley Frazier is a "dark-complected Caucasian"?

 

VVzSbvJ.jpg

 

**

 

Who's next on your list, Pat?

 

Avery Davis

Judy McCully

Ruth Dean

Madie Reese

Carl Jones

Roy Lewis

Joe Molina

Otis Williams

Pauline Sanders

Sarah Stanton

Bill Shelley

Billy Lovelady

Buell Wesley Frazier

 

Perhaps you'd like to make the case for Billy Lovelady again?



#842 Sean Murphy

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 09:40 AM

 

 

No, I never met Marion Baker but looking at the video interviews with him he comes across very credible to me.

 

And if what Roffman says about the second floor lunchroom encounter excludes the possibility of Oswald descending the steps from the sixth floor, how could he be the Sixth Floor Sniper. 

 

i don't believe that Baker or Truly were told to say anything, were coached by anyone, or someone wrote a contrived script that set up a fictional second floor encounter that the three people involved have described in detail. 

 

If you believe that the encounter with Baker that exonerates Oswald was contrived, tell us who contrived it? Who is behind the charade? Who is the scriptwriter and who is pulling the strings? I want to know. 

 

As with those who try to blame Oswald or promote any conspiracy theory, only the evidence that supports your theory is presented, while all others are ignored or said to be lies or fiction. 

 

I prefer G. Kinston Clark's principles as elaborated on here: http://jfkcountercou.../2013/09/g.html  

 

G. Kinston Clark, in The Critical Historian, writes:

 

 

 

“The distortion produced by bias are potentially present in any attempt to write history. Sometimes the danger is obvious and menacing, sometimes it is covert, coming from unexpected angles and in not easily detected forms. ….Any interpretation which makes use of facts which can be shown to be false, or accepts as certainty true facts which are dubious, or does not take into account facts which are known, are at best, potentially misleading, and possibly grossly, and dangerously deceptive. ….It is the first task of the historian to review any narrative to find what links are missing altogether…where what is defective cannot be supplied by further research, it is an historian’s duty to draw attention to the fact so that men can know where they stand.…Any historical conception which has not been adjusted to the most recent results will cease to be satisfactory.”

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bill, 

 

How exactly does your or Roffman's analysis of the second-floor lunchroom incident exclude the Oswald-behind-the-door-window scenario I have outlined? Please be specific.

 

Are you still claiming that Oswald himself described the second-floor lunchroom incident in detail? Where are you getting this idea from? Please be specific by citing the relevant document(s).

 

 

Bill,

 

You have several times stated that Lee Oswald himself confirmed in detail the second-floor lunchroom story as told by Baker and Truly.

 

You seem to be basing this claim on the two following sources:

 

1. "... I asked Oswald where he was when the police officer stopped him. He said he was on the second floor drinking a coca cola when the officer came in." (Captain Will Fritz, Interrogation Report)

 

2. "Oswald stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca-cola from the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there." (FBI Special Agent James Bookhout, Interrogation Report)

 

In both instances, Oswald is reported as having claimed to have already bought a coca cola by the time the officer came in the lunchroom. Fritz even has Oswald state that he was actually drinking said coca cola at the time.

 

This version of events is clearly irreconcilable with Baker's description in his WC testimony of the circumstances under which he caught his first glimpse of Oswald.

 

Now:

 

Do you maintain that Oswald really said those things under interrogation?

 

If not, how can you possibly ask us to depend upon these interrogation report statements?

 

If so, do you believe Oswald was lying?--Or, do you believe Baker was lying in his WC testimony?

 

I would appreciate, in the interests of constructive and meaningful dialogue, direct answers from you to these simple questions.

 

 

Bill,

 

Is it still your contention that we have a detailed description from Lee Oswald of the second-floor lunchroom incident?

 

If so, do you believe he claimed to have already bought the coke by the time the officer came into the lunchroom?



#843 Richard Hocking

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 02:41 PM

 

I think Richard's Timeline helps a lot, and it should be expanded to include Shelley and Lovelady and Frazer movements after the last shot and other items that are appropriate. 

 

Timeline of Certain Pertinent Events at the TSBD

 

[Thank to Richard Hocking for putting this together]
http://jfkcountercou...ent-events.html


Timeline:

 

12:00: Eddie Piper sees Oswald on the 1st floor of the TSBD. 1
12:00 – 12:10: (estimated time) Bonnie Ray Williams goes to 6th floor to eat lunch (sees and hears no one) (?) 2
12:12: Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald in hallway between front door and double doors a few minutes before 12:15 3
12:15– 12:25: Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald in the1st floor Lunch Room 4
12:15: Arnold Rowland sees man with Rifle on 6th floor West Window (slender, dark hair, light shirt open at neck; other man was "colored" hanging out of East corner window) 5
12:15– 12:20: BRW takes elevator from 6th to 5th floor leaving Dr.Pepper bottle and partially eaten chicken behind (?) (sees and hears no one) 6
12:18: Howard Brennan sees man on 6th floor (no rifle visible at this time). (w/m, early30's, slender, 165-75, light clothing) 7
12:20- 12:25: Carolyn Arnold looks through glass door and sees Oswald inside on 1st floor near front of TSBD 8
12:26- 12:30: Ruby Henderson sees two men on 6th/ or Top floor. One dark (Mexican or Negro), and was wearing a white shirt. The other man was the taller and lighter of the two 
12:28: Richard Carr sees heavy set man, what, glasses, tan 
sport coat in 2nd window from East corner, 6th floor. 10 
12:29: Carolyn Walther sees two men w/ Rifle in 5th floor SE corner Window. (one man wearing brown suit coat) 11
12:29 Robert Edwards see w/m in 6th floor SE corner window, light colored shirt, short sleeve, open neck, possibly thin 12 
12:29 Ronald Fischer sees Man in 5th floor "right corner" window, man was laying down,could only see head, 
light headed and open neck shirt, man was in his twenties (Fischer will later change floor to 6th and shots from 4 to 3.) 13
12:29 – 12:30: Geneva Hine notes the lights are out on her phone system as motorcade approaches TSBD. 12:30 Oswald said he was on the first floor at the time of the shooting, then went up to the second floor lunchroom to get a coke. 14.

12:30 “Prayer Man” is standing at the top of the front steps of the TSBD where Buell Wesley Frazer is also standing, just above William Shelley and Lovelady, who are on lower steps.
12:30: 
Shots fired at JFK Limo.
12:30: Amos Euins sees Blackman with rifle in 6th floor SE corner window (later changed to white man) 15 This man firing the rifle also has white shirt and bald spot on top of head. 
12:30: Howard Brennan sees white man w white shirt and Rifle in 6th floor SE corner window 16
12:30: Jack Dougherty is 10 feet west of West Elevator on 5th floor (within sight and sound of NW stairs); hears one shot. 17
12:30: Dillard Photo taken 3-15 seconds after shots shows Norman and Williams in SE 5th floor corner windows (and possibly Jarman inthe 4th window from the SE corner). They say they run to West Window after shots. 18
12:31: Vicky Adams and Sandra Styles descend the NW Rear stairs from the 4th floor to the 1st floor (see & hear no one). 19
12:31: Otis Williams runs up NW stairway to 4th floor (sees no one) goes back to his 2nd floor office (?) 20
12:31: Officer Baker enters TSBD front Entrance, runs past "Prayer Man" and goes to back w Truly, who shouts twice to release elevator. (no response). They see 2 white men by the elevators. (probably Shelley and Lovelady according to Adams) 21
12:31: Officer Barnett runs to guard back of TSBD (and Fire Escape on East Side). 22
12:31:30: Officer Baker and Roy Truly on 2nd floor by NW stairway; claim to see Oswald in Lunch room. 21
12:32: HSCA analysis show boxes in 6th floor window rearranged within 2 minutes of shooting. 22
12:32 – 12:33 Mrs. Reid returns to her 2nd floor office. Oswald calmly walks by her with coke in hand. 23
12:32 – 12:33 Deputy Roger Craig arrests a woman in her early thirties attempting to drive out of a private railyard parking lot. She was in a brown 1962 or 1963 Chevrolet . Craig turns her over to Deputy Sheriff Lummy Lewis. 24
12:32– 12:36: Carr sees the same man he previously saw in the window, walk away from the TSBD and get into a Rambler Station Wagon 10
12:32– 12:33: Officer Baker sees man on 3rd or 4th floor, w/m, 30 yrs old, 5'9, 165 lb, dark hair, light brown jacket. Manager vouches for this man and Baker lets him go. (Baker 11/22/63 affidavit) 25
12:33– 12:34: Officer Barnett moves from Back of TSBD to guard the Front entrance . 22
12:33 James Worrell see a man in a dark sportcoat and light colored pants dash out of the back of the TSBD about 3 minutes after shots fired at motorcade. Man was late 20's /early 30's, 5'8", dark brown hair. Ran South on Houston. 26
12:33– 12:34: Dougherty takes West Elevator down to 1st floor. (?) Talks to Givens. 27
12:33– 12:34: Baker and Truly on 4th or 5th floor, spot East Elevator, but West elevator is missing 28 They take the East Elevator to the seventh floor and find nothing, return to fourth floor where Baker reports to Inspector Sawyer, the senior Dallas Police Department officer in the building. 
12:33– 12:36: Officers Mooney, Vickery and Webster arrive at 1st floor rear elevator. Vickery and Webster take stairs up. Mooney takes elevator up to 2nd floor, where power goes off, he switches to the stairs and encounters " some men he believes to be officers" in plain clothes coming down the stairs. He passes these men and continues up. 29
12:33– 12:36: In his report of 11/23/63, Det. Harry Weatherford claims that he, Mooney, Boone, Walters, and Webster all went into the rear of the TSBD together and ascend the stairs. Weatherford goes out the window to search the roof of the loading dock, then comes back in and searches the first floor [sic] with an "unknown DPD Detective" (?) Then he goes to the top floor and eventually joins Mooney and Co. on the 6th floor 30
12:34– 12:35:From across the street court clerk Lillian Mooneyham sees man standing by boxes on 6th floor of TSBD. 31
12:34– 12:36: Officer Mooney arrives for first quick survey (does not go to "sniper lair") of 6th flloor, sees no one, then goes up to 7th floor. 29
12:34: Inspector Sawyer enters Front of TSBD, enters Passenger elevator; runs into "this Man"; goes up to 4th floor32
12:35: Baker and Truly are on roof of TSBD 33
12:36: Euins tells Officer Harkness shots came from 5th floor TSBD 34
12:36– 12:37: Harkness arrives at rear (North Loading dock) door of TSBD. Sees "some Secret Service Agents".35
12:37: Sawyer retrurns to 1st floor, goes out in front to set up Command Post. 32
12:40 – 12:45: Dep. Craig hears whistle. Sees light green Nash Rambler Station Wagon stop; sees w/m, 140-150, brown hair, in his 20's, white T shirt, runs down slope and gets inside. The Driver of the vehicle was husky latin, dark wavy hair, tan windbreaker jacket. Craig runs over to report this to the Command Post in front of the TSBD entrance and encounters a SS Agent ("40 years old, sandy-haired with a distinct cleft in his chin. He was well-dressed in a gray business suit") 24
12:45: Description of suspect broadcast by DPD: w/m, 30, 5'10, 165, 30-30 (Winchester Rifle on Channel 2) 36

12:50 – 12:55: SSA Forest Sorrels returns from Parkland Hospital to the rear entrance of the TSBD and enters the building with no one checking his ID, the first genuine SS Agent to arrive on the scene. 37
12:58: Captain Fritz arrives at front entrance of TSBD 38
12:58: Mooney Leans out window and Signals Fritz, who is standing in front of TSBD (After leaving the 7thfloor,Mooney, Vickery, and Webster went down to 6th floor, where Mooney discovered SE corner window "sniper lair", empty shells, chicken remnants and soda.. 39
1:22: Boone and Weitzman discover Rifle they idenitfy as a 7.65 Mauser, concealed between boxes on the 6th floor40
1:22 Truly tells DPD Capt. Lumpkin that one of his men - Oswald is missing. Lumplin confers privately with two or three other senior DPD officers and then escorts Truly up to the Sixth Floor where they interupt Capt. Fritz examining the rifle and Lumpkin tells Fritz that Truly has something important to tell Fritz, and Truly tells Frtiz about the missing employee - Oswald, and give Fritz Oswald's address at Mrs. Paine's home in Irving. Fritz then walks across the street to Sheriff Decker's office where they confer privately before Fritz returns to his DPD office, where Oswald, under arrest, is waiting for him, having been arrested in the Tippit shooting. 

[BK Notes, my additions to this chronology are not footnoted as to their source.] 

References:

1. Eddie Piper Dallas Sheriff Affidavit of 11/23/63; also WC Testimony
2. 
Bonnie Ray Williams WC testimony , Vol. III, pp 169-173 (left 6th floor at 12:20; was up there for 15 minutes)
3. CD5:41 Archives from Mary Ferrell Timeline
4. Anthony Summers 1978 interview with Carolyn Arnold/ Jim Marrs, Crossfire p. 49
5. 
Arnold Rowland, interviewed by Arlen Specter and Gerald Ford before the Warren Commission (10th March, 1964) 
6. Bonnie Ray Williams WC testimony , Vol.III – Page 173, March 24, 1964; http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page173.php
7. Howard Brennan Dallas Sheriff statement: November 22, 1963. (Description). Howard Brennan FBI Report: January 7,1964. (Gave 12:18 as time of sighting)
8. 
Arnold's 26 Nov 1963 statement is published by Weisberg (1967) p. 210, with discussion on pp. 74-75.The original handwritten statement says 12:25. When retyped by the FBI the time was changed to 12:15 (Guth & Wrone 1980, p. xxxii). This is cited by Don Thomas in Rewriting History:Bugliosi Parses the Testimony, http://www.maryferre...s_the_Testimony
9. Ruby Henderson FBI statement of 12/6/63. Saw men on 6th floor after ambulance had departed.
10. Richard Randolph Carr: 
http://www.aarclibra...DealeyPlaza.pdf, p. 8
11. 
http://www.aarclibra...DealeyPlaza.pdf
12. Robert Edwards WC Testimony on April 9. 1964, Vol VI, pp. 203- http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page203.php
13. Ronald Fischer Dallas Sheriff's Statement: November 22, 1963. 19H475; FBI Report: December 2,1963. CD205 
14. Geneva Hines WC Testimony, 4/7/64 http://www.aarclibra...df/WH6_Hine.pdf
15. James Underwood WC Deposition,4/1/64, Vol. VI, p. 170, http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page168.php
16. Howard Brennan Sheriff Statement: http://jfk.ci.dallas...28/2823-001.gif
17. Jack Daugherty WC testimony: http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page380.php
18. Dillard photo. Regarding Jarman: Mike Regan says Gary Mack told him he examined the negatives which confirmed Jarman in the 4thwindow from the SE Corner. http://educationforu...opic=4624&st=45 post #50.
19. Vicky Adams Warren Commission Testimony, 4/7/64
20. The Elevator Escape Theory by Richard Gilbride, 
http://www.reopenken...t/gilbride.html,pp 21-22
21. Officer Baker WC Testimony, Vol. III pp.247-263
22. from Comparison of Dillard and Powell photos, 6HSCA 110-115
23. Mrs. Robert Reid WC Testimony, 
http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page274.php
24. Roger Craig, When They Kill A President, 1, http://www.ratical.o.../JFK/WTKaP.html
25. (Officer Baker Affidavit), http://jfk.ci.dallas...04/0426-001.gif
26. James Worrell WC Testimony, Vol. II, p. 196, http://www.jfk-assas...ol2/page196.php
27. Jack Dougherty WC Testimony, Vol. VI, p 380, http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page380.php
28. Baker WC Testimony, Vol. III, pp. 258-259 http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page258.php
29. Luke Mooney WC Testimony, Vol. III, pp. 283-284 http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page283.php
30. Harry Weatherford, Dallas Sheriff Supplementary Investigation Report, http://mcadams.posc....ny/weatherf.htm
31. Lillian Mooneyham, FBI Report: January 10, 1964, 24H531
32. Ins. Sawyer WC Testimony, Vol VI, pp 318-320, http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page319.php
33. Baker WC Testimony Vol. III, p 262 http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page262.php (Baker took total of 15 minutes, spent about 10 minutes on roof)
34. Harkness WC Testimony, Vol. VI, p. 310 
http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page310.php
35. Harkness WC Testimony, Vol. VI, p. 312, http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page312.php
36. DPD Description of Suspect broadcast; Mary Ferrell Chronologies Vol 4 Nov 22 1963 pg 172, Tape #1 gives 12:37-12:45; JFK Assassination Chronology 22 Nov 1963 pg 49 gives 12:45 as time; http://www.terra.es/...rios/cintas.htm gives 12:45
37. SSA Forest Sorrels, Vol VII, p. 347-348,WC testimony, 
http://www.jfk-assas...ol7/page347.php
38. Captain Fritz, WC Testimony, Vol IV, p.204 http://www.jfk-assas...ol4/page204.php
39. Mooney signals Fritz, http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page284.php, Fritz arrived and was in frontof TSBD at 12:58, then went inside according to his WC testimony, 37 
40. Dep. Eugene Boone, WC testimony, Vol 6, pp 204-205. 
http://www.jfk-assas...ol4/page205.php

Other Related Reading:

"The Elevator Escape Theory" by Richard Gilbride, 
http://www.reopenken...t/gilbride.html
Greg Parker Website; http://reopenkennedy...-cop-encounters
"The Man in the Dark Sports Coat" by William Weston http://www.manuscrip...PQ/sports~1.htm
Duke Lane thread on Lancer forum : http://www.jfklancer...g_id=82512
Don Thomas , "Rewriting History: Bugliosi Parses the Testimony" http://www.maryferre...s_the_Testimony
"Dealey Plaza Conspiracy Witnesses, HSCA Staff Report", http://www.aarclibra...DealeyPlaza.pdf
"A Comprehensive Review of Reclaiming History", by James DiEugenio

 

Richard"s 

Questions and observations:

1. Electrical Power Events: Geneva Hine's phone system lights go off, just before12:30. Was this a power outage or just no calls at that time?; Truly and Baker are unable to get an elevator down from the 5th floor less than a minute after the shots. Sandra Styles said she and Vicky Adams tried the passenger elevator in front, but when it did not work, they went to the backstairs. The West elevator has power when Mooney gets on the 1st floor,then loses power on the 2nd floor, 12:33-12:36. Who cut power to elevator at that precise moment? Select Elevator circuits and possibly he phone system circuit were reported off, but I have seen no report of all power to the TSBD being off, which would have happened if the Main Circuit breaker was thrown. The 3 elevators would have been on their own dedicated circuits, as would the phone system. The evidence supports the possibility that selected circuits may have been turned on/off at various times just before and after 12:30. This rules out random fuse failure (or circuit breakers being tripped) and supports the notion of manipulation of the power circuits. Was the Fuse/Breaker box located in the basement of the TSBD?

2. Why is there no exchange of information with Mooney when he is passing the men he believes might be DPD officers on the stairs? They would have been the very first respondents on the scene. If you were Mooney, wouldn't you at least ask them a few questions … like Had they seen a man with a rifle roaming around on an upper floor? And why were they were leaving the scene so soon?

3. There are three general descriptions of unknown men seen on the upper floors, in some cases with rifles, just before and at the time of the shooting:
First man: a younger white man who was slender.
Second man: another white man who may have been older, heavier, and wearing a tan jacket or coat and possibly glasses. 
Third man: a dark complected man who may have been Latin/Mexican/Negro.

4. Secret Service men were reported on the back entrance dock and at the front entrance within minutes of the shots, and well before Forrest Sorrels was the first actual SS agent to return to Dealey Plaza/ TSBD.

5. Unidentified men who were thought to be police officers:
A. "Some" plain clothes officers seen by Officer Mooney as he ascends the NW stairs from the 2nd floor
B. Weatherford searches the 1st floor with an unknown DPD detective

6. Unidentified Civilians:
A. Man seen in front elevator by Sawyer
B. Two men seen by rear elevator seen by Baker (may be Lovelady and Shelley)

7. Individuals seen leaving the scene:
A. Man seen by Worrel
B. Man seen by Carr
C. Man seen by Craig
D. Woman in car arrested by Craig.

 

You are right, Bill.  The Timeline is ripe to be updated.  Including the items you have mentioned, here is the short list of updates I believe are appropriate to include:

 

1.  PrayerMan coming out onto the steps

2. Movement of Lovelady, Shelley, and Frazier after leaving steps

3. Vicky Adams encounter with what she believes are 2 plain clothes DPD in the West Elevator on the 2nd floor (after power has gone out)

4. Denham arrest of subject on 3rd floor

 

Other items I want to add, but need to get a good time range on:

• Gloria Calvary encounter with Lovelady and Shelley

• Truly call to Aikens to get Oswald info from Employment application

• Lovelady and Shelley moving to guard the elevators

 

And anything on the whereabouts of Jack Daugherty.  

 

I would welcome any input for time-stamping the above items, with citations of course.



#844 David Von Pein

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 02:59 PM

THOSE WHO PLOTTED THE MURDER AND SETTING UP OSWALD AS THE PATSY WANTED THE CASTRO-COMMIE CONSPIRACY TO BE DISCOVERED AND FOLLOWED, AND THE LONE NUT SCENARIO ONLY CAME INTO PLAY WHEN THE COVER STORY DIDN'T PAN OUT.

YOU SHOULD KNOW ALL OF THIS STUFF DAVE.


Sure I know all of that stuff, Bill. Does that mean I have to swallow it like you have?

Edited by David Von Pein, 23 September 2013 - 03:01 PM.


#845 William Kelly

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 03:55 PM

 

THOSE WHO PLOTTED THE MURDER AND SETTING UP OSWALD AS THE PATSY WANTED THE CASTRO-COMMIE CONSPIRACY TO BE DISCOVERED AND FOLLOWED, AND THE LONE NUT SCENARIO ONLY CAME INTO PLAY WHEN THE COVER STORY DIDN'T PAN OUT.

YOU SHOULD KNOW ALL OF THIS STUFF DAVE.


Sure I know all of that stuff, Bill. Does that mean I have to swallow it like you have?

 

 

You're the one who swallowed the Patsy cover-story hook, line and sinker, and after being corrected, and are in denial and refuse to believe you've been suckered. You can't cheat an honest man.

 

You asked me questions that I answered, why don't you answer mine?

 

How did the rifle get in the building if Frazer didn't drive it from Irving?

 

How did the rifle get from Dallas to New Orleans and back again if Oswald didn't take it with him on the bus?

 

Who was that man in the window when Oswald was with Baker and Truly on the second floor?

 

Did that man leave fingerprints on the boxes, which were moved around while he was there - as the photo evidence proves?

 

How many fingerprints are on the boxes besides Oswald's (and Malcolm Wallace's) and the Cops?

 

You asked the questions, why not answer them?

 


Edited by William Kelly, 23 September 2013 - 03:57 PM.


#846 Robert Prudhomme

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 05:01 PM

THOSE WHO PLOTTED THE MURDER AND SETTING UP OSWALD AS THE PATSY WANTED THE CASTRO-COMMIE CONSPIRACY TO BE DISCOVERED AND FOLLOWED, AND THE LONE NUT SCENARIO ONLY CAME INTO PLAY WHEN THE COVER STORY DIDN'T PAN OUT.

YOU SHOULD KNOW ALL OF THIS STUFF DAVE.


Sure I know all of that stuff, Bill. Does that mean I have to swallow it like you have?

 
You're the one who swallowed the Patsy cover-story hook, line and sinker, and after being corrected, and are in denial and refuse to believe you've been suckered. You can't cheat an honest man.
 
You asked me questions that I answered, why don't you answer mine?
 
How did the rifle get in the building if Frazer didn't drive it from Irving?
 
How did the rifle get from Dallas to New Orleans and back again if Oswald didn't take it with him on the bus?
 
Who was that man in the window when Oswald was with Baker and Truly on the second floor?
 
Did that man leave fingerprints on the boxes, which were moved around while he was there - as the photo evidence proves?
 
How many fingerprints are on the boxes besides Oswald's (and Malcolm Wallace's) and the Cops?
 
You asked the questions, why not answer them?


*chirp*chirp* go the crickets in the ensuing silence.....

#847 Larry Hancock

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 05:55 PM

I'll add in one more relevant item.

 

An FBI memorandum states that when administering a polygraph to Frazier the evening of the assassination, the Dallas police showed Frazier the actual bag which was being represented as having

been used by Oswald to carry his rifle into the TSBD just that morning.  The actual bag, that Frazier would have seen that same morning.  Frazier was adamant that it was not the bag Oswald

had carried into his car just that morning and the polygraph confirmed his truthfulness.

 

To my knowledge the transcript of that polygraph session has never surfaced and there have been a variety of conflicting remarks by very DPD officers in regard to it.  If the FBI memo is accurate

there would not only have been a major hole in the case against Oswald but a serious question as to the origin of the bag in question.



#848 Robert Prudhomme

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 06:10 PM

"12:31: Officer Baker enters TSBD front Entrance, runs past "Prayer Man" and goes to back w Truly, who shouts twice to release elevator. (no response). They see 2 white men by the elevators. (probably Shelley and Lovelady according to Adams) 21"

I am still trying to understand how Lovelady and Shelley were able to proceed West on Elm St. to the concrete island, plus able to look back and see Truly/Baker entering the TSBD, yet be waiting in the vicinity of the elevators to be spotted first by Vicki Adams and then by Marrion Baker; especially if we read Shelley's testimony, in which he describes himself and Lovelady then going to the railroad yards before returning to the TSBD by the rear door. By her testimony, I think Miss Adams was on her way out of the building through the back door before Truly/Baker arrived at the elevators. If not, there is no way they could have not run into each other on the stairs.

Also, according to Miss Adams' testimony, she had returned from the railroad yard to the TSBD and stopped to listen to the two way radio on a police motorcycle parked in front of the TSBD. Presumably, this was Baker's motorcycle, further proving she had managed to get out of the TSBD before Truly and Baker had entered.

Edited by Robert Prudhomme, 23 September 2013 - 06:11 PM.


#849 William Kelly

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 06:11 PM

I'll add in one more relevant item.

 

An FBI memorandum states that when administering a polygraph to Frazier the evening of the assassination, the Dallas police showed Frazier the actual bag which was being represented as having

been used by Oswald to carry his rifle into the TSBD just that morning.  The actual bag, that Frazier would have seen that same morning.  Frazier was adamant that it was not the bag Oswald

had carried into his car just that morning and the polygraph confirmed his truthfulness.

 

To my knowledge the transcript of that polygraph session has never surfaced and there have been a variety of conflicting remarks by very DPD officers in regard to it.  If the FBI memo is accurate

there would not only have been a major hole in the case against Oswald but a serious question as to the origin of the bag in question.

 

 

 

 

No, I never met Marion Baker but looking at the video interviews with him he comes across very credible to me.

 

And if what Roffman says about the second floor lunchroom encounter excludes the possibility of Oswald descending the steps from the sixth floor, how could he be the Sixth Floor Sniper. 

 

i don't believe that Baker or Truly were told to say anything, were coached by anyone, or someone wrote a contrived script that set up a fictional second floor encounter that the three people involved have described in detail. 

 

If you believe that the encounter with Baker that exonerates Oswald was contrived, tell us who contrived it? Who is behind the charade? Who is the scriptwriter and who is pulling the strings? I want to know. 

 

As with those who try to blame Oswald or promote any conspiracy theory, only the evidence that supports your theory is presented, while all others are ignored or said to be lies or fiction. 

 

I prefer G. Kinston Clark's principles as elaborated on here: http://jfkcountercou.../2013/09/g.html  

 

G. Kinston Clark, in The Critical Historian, writes:

 

 

 

“The distortion produced by bias are potentially present in any attempt to write history. Sometimes the danger is obvious and menacing, sometimes it is covert, coming from unexpected angles and in not easily detected forms. ….Any interpretation which makes use of facts which can be shown to be false, or accepts as certainty true facts which are dubious, or does not take into account facts which are known, are at best, potentially misleading, and possibly grossly, and dangerously deceptive. ….It is the first task of the historian to review any narrative to find what links are missing altogether…where what is defective cannot be supplied by further research, it is an historian’s duty to draw attention to the fact so that men can know where they stand.…Any historical conception which has not been adjusted to the most recent results will cease to be satisfactory.”

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bill, 

 

How exactly does your or Roffman's analysis of the second-floor lunchroom incident exclude the Oswald-behind-the-door-window scenario I have outlined? Please be specific.

 

Are you still claiming that Oswald himself described the second-floor lunchroom incident in detail? Where are you getting this idea from? Please be specific by citing the relevant document(s).

 

 

Bill,

 

You have several times stated that Lee Oswald himself confirmed in detail the second-floor lunchroom story as told by Baker and Truly.

 

You seem to be basing this claim on the two following sources:

 

1. "... I asked Oswald where he was when the police officer stopped him. He said he was on the second floor drinking a coca cola when the officer came in." (Captain Will Fritz, Interrogation Report)

 

2. "Oswald stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca-cola from the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there." (FBI Special Agent James Bookhout, Interrogation Report)

 

In both instances, Oswald is reported as having claimed to have already bought a coca cola by the time the officer came in the lunchroom. Fritz even has Oswald state that he was actually drinking said coca cola at the time.

 

This version of events is clearly irreconcilable with Baker's description in his WC testimony of the circumstances under which he caught his first glimpse of Oswald.

 

Now:

 

Do you maintain that Oswald really said those things under interrogation?

 

If not, how can you possibly ask us to depend upon these interrogation report statements?

 

If so, do you believe Oswald was lying?--Or, do you believe Baker was lying in his WC testimony?

 

I would appreciate, in the interests of constructive and meaningful dialogue, direct answers from you to these simple questions.

 

 

Bill,

 

Is it still your contention that we have a detailed description from Lee Oswald of the second-floor lunchroom incident?

 

If so, do you believe he claimed to have already bought the coke by the time the officer came into the lunchroom?

 

 

Sean, 

 

I think the Oswald interrogation sessions must be reviewed in full rather than just plucking a few quotes here and there. I don't know what Oswald told Fritz or any of the cops, or if the cops got the story right from Oswald, though he certainly did mention getting a coke. 

 

I don't know if Oswald said he had already got the coke when Baker stopped him, but if Oswald had just entered the room from the offices - as he would had he gotten change from Mrs. Hine - and would leave by according to Mrs. Reid, then he was on his way to buy the coke and hadn't bought it yet. 

 

When Baker swore out one of his reports - at first he said "coke in hand" and then crossed that out, possibly realizing he only heard about the coke in hand - via Mrs. Reid, after the fact, and Mrs. Reid said the coke was full, so recreating the scene in my mind - Oswald doesn't have the coke when he meets Baker in the lunchroom. 

 

But I agree with you that a review of the interrogation sessions is in order so we can clarify some things like the coke in the chronology. 

 

BK 



#850 David Von Pein

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 06:22 PM

How did the rifle get in the building if Frazer didn't drive it from Irving?


Frazier, of course, did drive the rifle from Irving to the TSBD on 11/22. That fact couldn't be more obvious. And it's also obvious that the bag found on the sixth floor could easily hold Oswald's disassembled rifle, as this side-by-side photo amply illustrates (the caption of the FBI photo from CD#1 is slightly off when it says that the blanket was found in "Oswald's garage"; it should say Ruth Paine's garage, of course; that is one of dozens of errors made by the FBI during its haste in preparing its 12/9/63 report):

OswaldsRiflePaperBag.jpg

http://www.maryferre...bsPageId=327309

Ergo, Wesley Frazier was simply in error about the bag's length.

VINCE BUGLIOSI -- "Is it true that you paid hardly any attention to this bag?"

BUELL WESLEY FRAZIER -- "That is true."

BUGLIOSI -- "So the bag could have been protruding out in front of his body and you wouldn't have been able to see it, is that correct?"

FRAZIER -- "That is true."


http://dvp-potpourri...ey-frazier.html


Tell us, William Kelly, how did Oswald's prints get on that 38-inch paper bag (CE142) if he didn't handle it at some point prior to the assassination?

 

How did the rifle get from Dallas to New Orleans and back again if Oswald didn't take it with him on the bus?


Huh? On the bus? The rifle was almost certainly transported back to Dallas from New Orleans via Ruth Paine's station wagon. No mystery there at all. So why create one?

 

Who was that man in the window when Oswald was with Baker and Truly on the second floor?


There was nobody in the Sniper's Nest window during that time. You surely aren't relying on Lillian Mooneyham's observations about seeing a person in the window several MINUTES after the shooting, are you? The idea that any assassin would just be hanging around the sniper's window (to be easily seen from the outside) for several minutes after having just shot the President is just crazy and everybody knows it.

Mooneyham's times are off--which couldn't be a more common mistake made by witnesses. Another perfect example being Earlene Roberts' estimate of "3 or 4 minutes" for Oswald staying inside his closet-sized room on 11/22, even though Roberts herself contradicted her own "3 or 4 minutes" timeline when she also said that Oswald was in his room "just long enough, I guess, to go in there and get a jacket and put it on". Does that activity usually take a person three or four minutes to accomplish?

 

Did that man leave fingerprints on the boxes, which were moved around while he was there - as the photo evidence proves?


Well, there was no "man" in the window several minutes after the assassination. But anyway, I do know that OSWALD'S fingerprints and palmprints were on two of the boxes that were located deep within the Sniper's Nest.

Stated another way -- Lee Harvey Oswald's fingers touched the same boxes that were utilized by the person who fired a rifle at President Kennedy.

Do the math. It isn't rocket science--or even 10th grade algebra. It's 1st grade 2+2 arithmetic. You're just looking for an excuse to throw away some very incriminating evidence that corroborates and solidifies all of the other "Oswald Was Here" stuff that is also on the table.

But go ahead and play defense attorney for Oswald if that's your desire. But I doubt a jury would buy it (especially when that same jury considers whose gun deposited those three empty cartridge cases that were lying just a few inches away from Oswald's prints on those boxes).

 

How many fingerprints are on the boxes besides Oswald's (and Malcolm Wallace's) and the Cops?


I see you've fallen for the myth about Malcolm Wallace's prints being on the TSBD boxes. Of course, Wallace's prints were not on any of those boxes, because the only unidentified print on ANY of the TSBD boxes (per Commission Exhibit 3131) was a palmprint, not a fingerprint. The Wallace thing is a hoax. Simple as that.

Edited by David Von Pein, 23 September 2013 - 06:49 PM.


#851 Robert Prudhomme

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 07:51 PM

*SIGH*  

 

I was actually enjoying this thread. Why do you insist on hijacking threads and knocking them off-topic, David Von Pain?


Edited by Robert Prudhomme, 23 September 2013 - 07:51 PM.


#852 David Von Pein

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 08:00 PM

I was actually enjoying this thread. Why do you insist on hijacking threads and knocking them off-topic, David Von Pain [sic][~sigh~]?


Sorry. I guess it did get "off topic" yet again. So easy for that to happen, especially when a person (Bill Kelly) asked me a series of questions within this now-derailed thread. (Of course, Bill isn't to be scolded in this "off topic" regard, is he Bob? Only me.)

Should I have just ignored Bill's list of inquiries to me, Bob?

~reciprocal sigh~

Edited by David Von Pein, 23 September 2013 - 08:03 PM.


#853 William Kelly

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 08:11 PM

BACK ON TRACK - 

 

I'd like to know who came first - Baker and Truley or Vicky Adams and her friend? Can anyone tell me whether Baker and Truly went up the back steps before the girls came down, or was it vise versa? 

 

- BK 

 

Timeline of Certain Pertinent Events at the TSBD

 

[Thank to Richard Hocking for putting this together]
http://jfkcountercou...ent-events.html


Timeline:

 

12:00: Eddie Piper sees Oswald on the 1st floor of the TSBD. 1
12:00 – 12:10: (estimated time) Bonnie Ray Williams goes to 6th floor to eat lunch (sees and hears no one) (?) 2
12:12: Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald in hallway between front door and double doors a few minutes before 12:15 3
12:15– 12:25: Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald in the1st floor Lunch Room 4
12:15: Arnold Rowland sees man with Rifle on 6th floor West Window (slender, dark hair, light shirt open at neck; other man was "colored" hanging out of East corner window) 5
12:15– 12:20: BRW takes elevator from 6th to 5th floor leaving Dr.Pepper bottle and partially eaten chicken behind (?) (sees and hears no one) 6
12:18: Howard Brennan sees man on 6th floor (no rifle visible at this time). (w/m, early30's, slender, 165-75, light clothing) 7
12:20- 12:25: Carolyn Arnold looks through glass door and sees Oswald inside on 1st floor near front of TSBD 8
12:26- 12:30: Ruby Henderson sees two men on 6th/ or Top floor. One dark (Mexican or Negro), and was wearing a white shirt. The other man was the taller and lighter of the two 
12:28: Richard Carr sees heavy set man, what, glasses, tan 
sport coat in 2nd window from East corner, 6th floor. 10 
12:29: Carolyn Walther sees two men w/ Rifle in 5th floor SE corner Window. (one man wearing brown suit coat) 11
12:29 Robert Edwards see w/m in 6th floor SE corner window, light colored shirt, short sleeve, open neck, possibly thin 12 
12:29 Ronald Fischer sees Man in 5th floor "right corner" window, man was laying down,could only see head, 
light headed and open neck shirt, man was in his twenties (Fischer will later change floor to 6th and shots from 4 to 3.) 13
12:29 – 12:30: Geneva Hine notes the lights are out on her phone system as motorcade approaches TSBD. 12:30 Oswald said he was on the first floor at the time of the shooting, then went up to the second floor lunchroom to get a coke. 14.

12:30 “Prayer Man” is standing at the top of the front steps of the TSBD where Buell Wesley Frazer is also standing, just above William Shelley and Lovelady, who are on lower steps.
12:30: 
Shots fired at JFK Limo.
12:30: Amos Euins sees Blackman with rifle in 6th floor SE corner window (later changed to white man) 15 This man firing the rifle also has white shirt and bald spot on top of head. 
12:30: Howard Brennan sees white man w white shirt and Rifle in 6th floor SE corner window 16
12:30: Jack Dougherty is 10 feet west of West Elevator on 5th floor (within sight and sound of NW stairs); hears one shot. 17
12:30: Dillard Photo taken 3-15 seconds after shots shows Norman and Williams in SE 5th floor corner windows (and possibly Jarman inthe 4th window from the SE corner). They say they run to West Window after shots. 18
12:31: Vicky Adams and Sandra Styles descend the NW Rear stairs from the 4th floor to the 1st floor (see & hear no one). 19
12:31: Otis Williams runs up NW stairway to 4th floor (sees no one) goes back to his 2nd floor office (?) 20
12:31: Officer Baker enters TSBD front Entrance, runs past "Prayer Man" and goes to back w Truly, who shouts twice to release elevator. (no response). They see 2 white men by the elevators. (probably Shelley and Lovelady according to Adams) 21
12:31: Officer Barnett runs to guard back of TSBD (and Fire Escape on East Side). 22
12:31:30: Officer Baker and Roy Truly on 2nd floor by NW stairway; claim to see Oswald in Lunch room. 21
12:32: HSCA analysis show boxes in 6th floor window rearranged within 2 minutes of shooting. 22
12:32 – 12:33 Mrs. Reid returns to her 2nd floor office. Oswald calmly walks by her with coke in hand. 23
12:32 – 12:33 Deputy Roger Craig arrests a woman in her early thirties attempting to drive out of a private railyard parking lot. She was in a brown 1962 or 1963 Chevrolet . Craig turns her over to Deputy Sheriff Lummy Lewis. 24
12:32– 12:36: Carr sees the same man he previously saw in the window, walk away from the TSBD and get into a Rambler Station Wagon 10
12:32– 12:33: Officer Baker sees man on 3rd or 4th floor, w/m, 30 yrs old, 5'9, 165 lb, dark hair, light brown jacket. Manager vouches for this man and Baker lets him go. (Baker 11/22/63 affidavit) 25
12:33– 12:34: Officer Barnett moves from Back of TSBD to guard the Front entrance . 22
12:33 James Worrell see a man in a dark sportcoat and light colored pants dash out of the back of the TSBD about 3 minutes after shots fired at motorcade. Man was late 20's /early 30's, 5'8", dark brown hair. Ran South on Houston. 26
12:33– 12:34: Dougherty takes West Elevator down to 1st floor. (?) Talks to Givens. 27
12:33– 12:34: Baker and Truly on 4th or 5th floor, spot East Elevator, but West elevator is missing 28 They take the East Elevator to the seventh floor and find nothing, return to fourth floor where Baker reports to Inspector Sawyer, the senior Dallas Police Department officer in the building. 
12:33– 12:36: Officers Mooney, Vickery and Webster arrive at 1st floor rear elevator. Vickery and Webster take stairs up. Mooney takes elevator up to 2nd floor, where power goes off, he switches to the stairs and encounters " some men he believes to be officers" in plain clothes coming down the stairs. He passes these men and continues up. 29
12:33– 12:36: In his report of 11/23/63, Det. Harry Weatherford claims that he, Mooney, Boone, Walters, and Webster all went into the rear of the TSBD together and ascend the stairs. Weatherford goes out the window to search the roof of the loading dock, then comes back in and searches the first floor [sic] with an "unknown DPD Detective" (?) Then he goes to the top floor and eventually joins Mooney and Co. on the 6th floor 30
12:34– 12:35:From across the street court clerk Lillian Mooneyham sees man standing by boxes on 6th floor of TSBD. 31
12:34– 12:36: Officer Mooney arrives for first quick survey (does not go to "sniper lair") of 6th flloor, sees no one, then goes up to 7th floor. 29
12:34: Inspector Sawyer enters Front of TSBD, enters Passenger elevator; runs into "this Man"; goes up to 4th floor32
12:35: Baker and Truly are on roof of TSBD 33
12:36: Euins tells Officer Harkness shots came from 5th floor TSBD 34
12:36– 12:37: Harkness arrives at rear (North Loading dock) door of TSBD. Sees "some Secret Service Agents".35
12:37: Sawyer retrurns to 1st floor, goes out in front to set up Command Post. 32
12:40 – 12:45: Dep. Craig hears whistle. Sees light green Nash Rambler Station Wagon stop; sees w/m, 140-150, brown hair, in his 20's, white T shirt, runs down slope and gets inside. The Driver of the vehicle was husky latin, dark wavy hair, tan windbreaker jacket. Craig runs over to report this to the Command Post in front of the TSBD entrance and encounters a SS Agent ("40 years old, sandy-haired with a distinct cleft in his chin. He was well-dressed in a gray business suit") 24
12:45: Description of suspect broadcast by DPD: w/m, 30, 5'10, 165, 30-30 (Winchester Rifle on Channel 2) 36

12:50 – 12:55: SSA Forest Sorrels returns from Parkland Hospital to the rear entrance of the TSBD and enters the building with no one checking his ID, the first genuine SS Agent to arrive on the scene. 37
12:58: Captain Fritz arrives at front entrance of TSBD 38
12:58: Mooney Leans out window and Signals Fritz, who is standing in front of TSBD (After leaving the 7thfloor,Mooney, Vickery, and Webster went down to 6th floor, where Mooney discovered SE corner window "sniper lair", empty shells, chicken remnants and soda.. 39
1:22: Boone and Weitzman discover Rifle they idenitfy as a 7.65 Mauser, concealed between boxes on the 6th floor40
1:22 Truly tells DPD Capt. Lumpkin that one of his men - Oswald is missing. Lumplin confers privately with two or three other senior DPD officers and then escorts Truly up to the Sixth Floor where they interupt Capt. Fritz examining the rifle and Lumpkin tells Fritz that Truly has something important to tell Fritz, and Truly tells Frtiz about the missing employee - Oswald, and give Fritz Oswald's address at Mrs. Paine's home in Irving. Fritz then walks across the street to Sheriff Decker's office where they confer privately before Fritz returns to his DPD office, where Oswald, under arrest, is waiting for him, having been arrested in the Tippit shooting. 

[BK Notes, my additions to this chronology are not footnoted as to their source.] 

References:

1. Eddie Piper Dallas Sheriff Affidavit of 11/23/63; also WC Testimony
2. 
Bonnie Ray Williams WC testimony , Vol. III, pp 169-173 (left 6th floor at 12:20; was up there for 15 minutes)
3. CD5:41 Archives from Mary Ferrell Timeline
4. Anthony Summers 1978 interview with Carolyn Arnold/ Jim Marrs, Crossfire p. 49
5. 
Arnold Rowland, interviewed by Arlen Specter and Gerald Ford before the Warren Commission (10th March, 1964) 
6. Bonnie Ray Williams WC testimony , Vol.III – Page 173, March 24, 1964; http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page173.php
7. Howard Brennan Dallas Sheriff statement: November 22, 1963. (Description). Howard Brennan FBI Report: January 7,1964. (Gave 12:18 as time of sighting)
8. 
Arnold's 26 Nov 1963 statement is published by Weisberg (1967) p. 210, with discussion on pp. 74-75.The original handwritten statement says 12:25. When retyped by the FBI the time was changed to 12:15 (Guth & Wrone 1980, p. xxxii). This is cited by Don Thomas in Rewriting History:Bugliosi Parses the Testimony, http://www.maryferre...s_the_Testimony
9. Ruby Henderson FBI statement of 12/6/63. Saw men on 6th floor after ambulance had departed.
10. Richard Randolph Carr: 
http://www.aarclibra...DealeyPlaza.pdf, p. 8
11. 
http://www.aarclibra...DealeyPlaza.pdf
12. Robert Edwards WC Testimony on April 9. 1964, Vol VI, pp. 203- http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page203.php
13. Ronald Fischer Dallas Sheriff's Statement: November 22, 1963. 19H475; FBI Report: December 2,1963. CD205 
14. Geneva Hines WC Testimony, 4/7/64 http://www.aarclibra...df/WH6_Hine.pdf
15. James Underwood WC Deposition,4/1/64, Vol. VI, p. 170, http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page168.php
16. Howard Brennan Sheriff Statement: http://jfk.ci.dallas...28/2823-001.gif
17. Jack Daugherty WC testimony: http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page380.php
18. Dillard photo. Regarding Jarman: Mike Regan says Gary Mack told him he examined the negatives which confirmed Jarman in the 4thwindow from the SE Corner. http://educationforu...opic=4624&st=45 post #50.
19. Vicky Adams Warren Commission Testimony, 4/7/64
20. The Elevator Escape Theory by Richard Gilbride, 
http://www.reopenken...t/gilbride.html,pp 21-22
21. Officer Baker WC Testimony, Vol. III pp.247-263
22. from Comparison of Dillard and Powell photos, 6HSCA 110-115
23. Mrs. Robert Reid WC Testimony, 
http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page274.php
24. Roger Craig, When They Kill A President, 1, http://www.ratical.o.../JFK/WTKaP.html
25. (Officer Baker Affidavit), http://jfk.ci.dallas...04/0426-001.gif
26. James Worrell WC Testimony, Vol. II, p. 196, http://www.jfk-assas...ol2/page196.php
27. Jack Dougherty WC Testimony, Vol. VI, p 380, http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page380.php
28. Baker WC Testimony, Vol. III, pp. 258-259 http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page258.php
29. Luke Mooney WC Testimony, Vol. III, pp. 283-284 http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page283.php
30. Harry Weatherford, Dallas Sheriff Supplementary Investigation Report, http://mcadams.posc....ny/weatherf.htm
31. Lillian Mooneyham, FBI Report: January 10, 1964, 24H531
32. Ins. Sawyer WC Testimony, Vol VI, pp 318-320, http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page319.php
33. Baker WC Testimony Vol. III, p 262 http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page262.php (Baker took total of 15 minutes, spent about 10 minutes on roof)
34. Harkness WC Testimony, Vol. VI, p. 310 
http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page310.php
35. Harkness WC Testimony, Vol. VI, p. 312, http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page312.php
36. DPD Description of Suspect broadcast; Mary Ferrell Chronologies Vol 4 Nov 22 1963 pg 172, Tape #1 gives 12:37-12:45; JFK Assassination Chronology 22 Nov 1963 pg 49 gives 12:45 as time; http://www.terra.es/...rios/cintas.htm gives 12:45
37. SSA Forest Sorrels, Vol VII, p. 347-348,WC testimony, 
http://www.jfk-assas...ol7/page347.php
38. Captain Fritz, WC Testimony, Vol IV, p.204 http://www.jfk-assas...ol4/page204.php
39. Mooney signals Fritz, http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page284.php, Fritz arrived and was in frontof TSBD at 12:58, then went inside according to his WC testimony, 37 
40. Dep. Eugene Boone, WC testimony, Vol 6, pp 204-205. 
http://www.jfk-assas...ol4/page205.php

Other Related Reading:

"The Elevator Escape Theory" by Richard Gilbride, 
http://www.reopenken...t/gilbride.html
Greg Parker Website; http://reopenkennedy...-cop-encounters
"The Man in the Dark Sports Coat" by William Weston http://www.manuscrip...PQ/sports~1.htm
Duke Lane thread on Lancer forum : http://www.jfklancer...g_id=82512
Don Thomas , "Rewriting History: Bugliosi Parses the Testimony" http://www.maryferre...s_the_Testimony
"Dealey Plaza Conspiracy Witnesses, HSCA Staff Report", http://www.aarclibra...DealeyPlaza.pdf
"A Comprehensive Review of Reclaiming History", by James DiEugenio

 

Richard"s 

Questions and observations:

1. Electrical Power Events: Geneva Hine's phone system lights go off, just before12:30. Was this a power outage or just no calls at that time?; Truly and Baker are unable to get an elevator down from the 5th floor less than a minute after the shots. Sandra Styles said she and Vicky Adams tried the passenger elevator in front, but when it did not work, they went to the backstairs. The West elevator has power when Mooney gets on the 1st floor,then loses power on the 2nd floor, 12:33-12:36. Who cut power to elevator at that precise moment? Select Elevator circuits and possibly he phone system circuit were reported off, but I have seen no report of all power to the TSBD being off, which would have happened if the Main Circuit breaker was thrown. The 3 elevators would have been on their own dedicated circuits, as would the phone system. The evidence supports the possibility that selected circuits may have been turned on/off at various times just before and after 12:30. This rules out random fuse failure (or circuit breakers being tripped) and supports the notion of manipulation of the power circuits. Was the Fuse/Breaker box located in the basement of the TSBD?

2. Why is there no exchange of information with Mooney when he is passing the men he believes might be DPD officers on the stairs? They would have been the very first respondents on the scene. If you were Mooney, wouldn't you at least ask them a few questions … like Had they seen a man with a rifle roaming around on an upper floor? And why were they were leaving the scene so soon?

3. There are three general descriptions of unknown men seen on the upper floors, in some cases with rifles, just before and at the time of the shooting:
First man: a younger white man who was slender.
Second man: another white man who may have been older, heavier, and wearing a tan jacket or coat and possibly glasses. 
Third man: a dark complected man who may have been Latin/Mexican/Negro.

4. Secret Service men were reported on the back entrance dock and at the front entrance within minutes of the shots, and well before Forrest Sorrels was the first actual SS agent to return to Dealey Plaza/ TSBD.

5. Unidentified men who were thought to be police officers:
A. "Some" plain clothes officers seen by Officer Mooney as he ascends the NW stairs from the 2nd floor
B. Weatherford searches the 1st floor with an unknown DPD detective

6. Unidentified Civilians:
A. Man seen in front elevator by Sawyer
B. Two men seen by rear elevator seen by Baker (may be Lovelady and Shelley)

7. Individuals seen leaving the scene:
A. Man seen by Worrel
B. Man seen by Carr
C. Man seen by Craig
D. Woman in car arrested by Craig.

 

 

1.  PrayerMan coming out onto the steps

2. Movement of Lovelady, Shelley, and Frazier after leaving steps

3. Vicky Adams encounter with what she believes are 2 plain clothes DPD in the West Elevator on the 2nd floor (after power has gone out)

4. Denham arrest of subject on 3rd floor

 

 

 

 

 

Other items I want to add, but need to get a good time range on:

• Gloria Calvary encounter with Lovelady and Shelley

• Truly call to Aikens to get Oswald info from Employment application

• Lovelady and Shelley moving to guard the elevators

 

And anything on the whereabouts of Jack Daugherty.  

 

I would welcome any input for time-stamping the above items, with citations of course.


Edited by William Kelly, 23 September 2013 - 08:14 PM.


#854 David Von Pein

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 08:20 PM

OSWALD, BAKER, TRULY, AND THE COKE:

JFK-Archives.blogspot.com/Oswald-Baker-Truly-And-Coca-Cola

Edited by David Von Pein, 23 September 2013 - 08:21 PM.


#855 Robert Prudhomme

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 08:30 PM

 

I was actually enjoying this thread. Why do you insist on hijacking threads and knocking them off-topic, David Von Pain [sic][~sigh~]?


Sorry. I guess it did get "off topic" yet again. So easy for that to happen, especially when a person (Bill Kelly) asked me a series of questions within this now-derailed thread. (Of course, Bill isn't to be scolded in this "off topic" regard, is he Bob? Only me.)

Should I have just ignored Bill's list of inquiries to me, Bob?

~reciprocal sigh~

 

Knocking threads off-topic is how you operate; it is your "modus operandi", so to speak.

 

And, you have not been missed.






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